np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

[Baharoth]

I mean I dont know why people are throwing out one isolated situation of what could potentially happen, I could just as easily paint a picture using conkeldurr and aegislash and that is a true 50/50 there is equal risk and reward and truly comes down to a coin flip.

I will admit the 50/50 argument may be exaggerted coming from our side, but once again this is just ONE trait that aegislash brings to the table that is part of MANY as to why he should be banned. Since there is no way anyone could reasonably say Aegislash does not force 50/50s, and no way to saying that Aegislash always forces a 50/50 in every situation, there is nothing else to be said except to say that Aegislash does induce more 50/50s in a tier already plagued with them, this is one reason of many we want him gone, so I dont know what you guys are saying. Are you saying he doesnt ever create situations that are 50/50s? If so, you are mistaken. I am happy this is coming to an end because all I am seeing are people taking one tiny trait of aegislash and trying to make it not seem so bad, and it is getting old.

No its not. Conk vs Aegi is even less of a coin flip because Conk underspeeds and kills Aegi with knock off while he can take a shadowball with ease so even if he gets that -2 he might still be fine by staying in and go for another round to severely damage and cripple Aegi for the rest of the match while taking that ~40% damage from Shadowball (Aegi takes around 70% from -2 knock off just as a comparison). Thats a stupid bet to make for Aegi and a very beneficial one for Conk.

I obviously cant bring examples for every possible situation but believe me, its like that in most cases, only execption that i can think off are the aforementioned 1vs1 situations in the endgame where that -2 actually means you lose the game because you cant kill Aegi anymore after running into KS.
It should be obvious from the way KS works that its not realy 50/50 as it only gives -2 attack in specific situations. So even in the worst case its just a forced switch comparable to a phazing move. The risks for Aegi on the other hand are usually much bigger especially if he is left in Bladeform but even in shield form it doesnt change much cause nothing that is a) affected by KS and b) cant realy damage/kill Aegi is going to stay in on him for obvious reasons.

KS is not like Suckerpunch. +2 Mawile vs SD Garchomp, thats a 50/50. The side that guesses wrong loses a mon end of the story, even switching doesnt realy change that as the switch might just get ohkoed by play rough. Getting a similar situation with Kingsshield is quite difficult and far from common.

To cut a long story short its possible to get into 50/50 situations with Aegi but only under very specific circumstances. So specific that this whole argument of 50/50s has hardly any value. If you wanna do something about 50/50s ban suckerpunch, confusion, paralysis and stuff like that.

And honestly, most of the other arguments like he forces Pinsir to run EQ, has nothing that counters all his sets (what has?) and the 720 BST stuff are just as bad as the 50/50 argument. The only real argument against Aegi is his huge impact on the meta or "overcentralization" as you call it. That cant realy be denied and is a fact, however its also very subjective whether that centralizing effect on the meta is good or bad. Personally i dont want to be forced to slap Slowbro, Scizor and Gliscor on every balance team only to have a chance against Gard/Hera/Medi, i rather deal with Aegi from time to time as compared to those offensive monsters he isnt realy troublesome to deal with.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

One thing I don't understand is...do you anti ban people really enjoy the metagame as it is? It's THE EXACT SAME POKEMON EVERYWHERE. And i've seen so many people say that they run multiple checks to aegislash. Most people only need 1 check/counter on a team and they can deal with a pokemon and i've seen people talking here about how you should run multiple checks to aegislash, for real your just showing about how much it over centralizes.

Another thing i find nothing but embarrassing from your end is the fact people are saying aegislash needs to stay ou so pokemon like mega medicham won't run around destroying everything. It's our fault it wasn't banned earlier. Your doing nothing but supporting that aegislash has ruined the metagame by making future ubers stay because they have 1 counter. The fact i've seen smogon contributors say things like this is just messed up.

Lastly for all you people saying you can predict aegislash because it's going to king's shield, the thing you need to predict is it's set not 1 specific move. If you go into a bisharp and it used sacred sword your done or toxic on mandibuzz, overall it has no true counter which is reason enough for it's ban.

Not only this but IT WILL ALWAYS BE S-CLASS, it's been s-class since october people and it's gonna stay top usage until it's ubers because YOU CAN FIT IT ON EVERY TEAM and it'll work. The fact that it doesn't sweep every time isn't making it any less weak. This thing is just like blaziken, if you predict wrong it could be about to set up in your face and try to sweep or just baton pass into a breloom cause i'd love to see a talon trying to take a 3X attack mach punch from loom, with aegislash it may not have as much power compared to mega blaziken or speed boost but literally 1 mispredict loses you the game and your defs gonna lose a poke to it.

All i'm gonna say was when aegislash was released the perfectly balanced metagame of gen 5 was absolutely shattered and even with 1 set it would sweep. Now with our supposed numerous checks which people fill their teams with for 1 poke it still wrecks and will always be top usage. If being top usage since november doesn't make it "better" than the rest of ou i don't know what does.

 

[Karxrida]

One thing I don't understand is...do you anti ban people really enjoy the metagame as it is? It's THE EXACT SAME POKEMON EVERYWHERE. And i've seen so many people say that they run multiple checks to aegislash. Most people only need 1 check/counter on a team and they can deal with a pokemon and i've seen people talking here about how you should run multiple checks to aegislash, for real your just showing about how much it over centralizes.

Another thing i find nothing but embarrassing from your end is the fact people are saying aegislash needs to stay ou so pokemon like mega medicham won't run around destroying everything. It's our fault it wasn't banned earlier. Your doing nothing but supporting that aegislash has ruined the metagame by making future ubers stay because they have 1 counter. The fact i've seen smogon contributors say things like this is just messed up.

Lastly for all you people saying you can predict aegislash because it's going to king's shield, the thing you need to predict is it's set not 1 specific move. If you go into a bisharp and it used sacred sword your done or toxic on mandibuzz, overall it has no true counter which is reason enough for it's ban.

Not only this but IT WILL ALWAYS BE S-CLASS, it's been s-class since october people and it's gonna stay top usage until it's ubers because YOU CAN FIT IT ON EVERY TEAM and it'll work. The fact that it doesn't sweep every time isn't making it any less weak. This thing is just like blaziken, if you predict wrong it could be about to set up in your face and try to sweep or just baton pass into a breloom cause i'd love to see a talon trying to take a 3X attack mach punch from loom, with aegislash it may not have as much power compared to mega blaziken or speed boost but literally 1 mispredict loses you the game and your defs gonna lose a poke to it.

All i'm gonna say was when aegislash was released the perfectly balanced metagame of gen 5 was absolutely shattered and even with 1 set it would sweep. Now with our supposed numerous checks which people fill their teams with for 1 poke it still wrecks and will always be top usage. If being top usage since november doesn't make it "better" than the rest of ou i don't know what does.

Go look up "Complacent Gaming Syndrome", which is not exclusive to Aegislash and will happen in any competitive environment.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Before you all get to vote, get this into your head. Get it into your head. Aegislash is the most cancerous piece of shit that has ever touched OU that wasn't quick banned, alongside Mega Lucario and Genesect. It has shaped the meta around itself. The meta hasn't really changed much since May. From May to July, there has been little to no metagame development, and that is largely in part because of Aegislash. The meta is stale, and quite frankly, really shitty. This can all be owed to Aegislash(and Mega Mawile, thats a piece of cancer too.) Aegislash is a roadblock to a good meta. If we want a good meta, we need to get rid of Aegislash. If other things become broken, we ban them too. We will do whatever it takes to make a good meta. If we are looking to get the good meta we want, Aegislash has to go. Why is Aegislash such a piece of cancer? Because all of his traits combined make him a piece of shit that the meta doesn't need. Sure, he has a great ability, is really versatile, and has great stats, and a great typing. None of these traits alone make a pokemon broken. It's when these traits combine that you have a piece of cancer. Aegislash has ALL of those. Nobody can really deny it has a great typing. Nobody can deny that it's ability is great. Nobody can deny it has great stat spread that it can switch between at will. Nobody can deny he is really versatile. But those traits combined make it toxic to the meta. So how does it make it toxic to the meta? Let's find out.(sorry if this was really repetitive, i had to get this through to you guys.)

It's so versatile it can be molded to fit your team exactly. Have trouble with walls in general? Use SubToxic. Need a bulky pivot that can dish out powerful attacks? Use the standard Leftovers set. Need a lure to Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran and other such walls? Use Swords Dance. The fact that I can essentially take a team and put the proper Aegislash on it and make it better shows that it's presence in the meta is cancerous. Did I mention the ridiculous role compression? SubToxic can act as a counter to various pokemon AND as a pivot! Swords Dance w/ Air Balloon allows it to function as a spinblocker! The leftovers set can function as a wall breaker and pursuit trapper! That isn't even all the goddamn sets. It's not the fact that it's uncounterable that makes its presence in the meta toxic, its the fact that it has ridiculous role capacity and how efficient it is at those roles.

Please, get this cancerous piece of shit out of OU.

 

[Baharoth]

One thing I don't understand is...do you anti ban people really enjoy the metagame as it is? It's THE EXACT SAME POKEMON EVERYWHERE. And i've seen so many people say that they run multiple checks to aegislash. Most people only need 1 check/counter on a team and they can deal with a pokemon and i've seen people talking here about how you should run multiple checks to aegislash, for real your just showing about how much it over centralizes.

Another thing i find nothing but embarrassing from your end is the fact people are saying aegislash needs to stay ou so pokemon like mega medicham won't run around destroying everything. It's our fault it wasn't banned earlier. Your doing nothing but supporting that aegislash has ruined the metagame by making future ubers stay because they have 1 counter. The fact i've seen smogon contributors say things like this is just messed up.

Lastly for all you people saying you can predict aegislash because it's going to king's shield, the thing you need to predict is it's set not 1 specific move. If you go into a bisharp and it used sacred sword your done or toxic on mandibuzz, overall it has no true counter which is reason enough for it's ban.

Not only this but IT WILL ALWAYS BE S-CLASS, it's been s-class since october people and it's gonna stay top usage until it's ubers because YOU CAN FIT IT ON EVERY TEAM and it'll work. The fact that it doesn't sweep every time isn't making it any less weak. This thing is just like blaziken, if you predict wrong it could be about to set up in your face and try to sweep or just baton pass into a breloom cause i'd love to see a talon trying to take a 3X attack mach punch from loom, with aegislash it may not have as much power compared to mega blaziken or speed boost but literally 1 mispredict loses you the game and your defs gonna lose a poke to it.

All i'm gonna say was when aegislash was released the perfectly balanced metagame of gen 5 was absolutely shattered and even with 1 set it would sweep. Now with our supposed numerous checks which people fill their teams with for 1 poke it still wrecks and will always be top usage. If being top usage since november doesn't make it "better" than the rest of ou i don't know what does.

Actually yes, i do enjoy it as it is. And the exact same pokemon everywhere... do you think thats going to change if we ban Aegi? Or Thundy? Or Lando? Or every A rank? No it wont. There will always be mons around that have very little drawbacks compared to others and fit into many teams and you will always see them alot. There will always be S rank mons, bans wont change that.

And it seems you missread something. We re not packing 2 checks for Aegi, but for most/every A/S rank threat. With just 1 check you easily end up at a big disadvantage where the opponent can put huge pressure on you or where he simply has a set that kills your only check.

And i am not arguing for Aegi to stay because he keeps Medi etc in check. I want him to stay because i dont think he is broken he is a good check to alot of things that would be more troublesome without him but that doesnt make him broken. Aldaron made the statement that there are to many threats to handle with just 6 slots. From my experience its more the opposite. There are many threats around that have like 2 or 3 half way decent counters so you have to use one of them on every team. Without Aegi its just going to be one less check for many things limiting the possible choices futher.

That last slot doesnt matter most of the time in practice tbh. For the most part because 90% of the Aegis are the standard tank set so suprises are rare to begin with. And even if my Mandy or Hippo gets a toxic, care? They are still solid switchins and force him out and they can heal off the toxic damage. With cleric support it matters even less. And even if i end up losing them there are usually 2 or 3 other mons of the team that have EQ, strong special attacks or are called Bisharp so again, care?

Always beeing S class is no reason to ban something imo, that just means the mon is good and can adapt to meta changes, unless they get banned Zard X and the Genies are also very unlikely to ever leave the S rank. And no he is not comparable to Blaziken, Blaziken can win games on its own if the opponent makes a mistake. Aegi does nothing thats even remotely close to that.

I didnt play gen 5 but going by what i ve read so far regarding gen 5 the meta there was a complete mess and far from perfectly balanced.

 

[Starfall11]

I mean I dont know why people are throwing out one isolated situation of what could potentially happen, I could just as easily paint a picture using conkeldurr and aegislash and that is a true 50/50 there is equal risk and reward and truly comes down to a coin flip.

I will admit the 50/50 argument may be exaggerted coming from our side, but once again this is just ONE trait that aegislash brings to the table that is part of MANY as to why he should be banned. Since there is no way anyone could reasonably say Aegislash does not force 50/50s, and no way to saying that Aegislash always forces a 50/50 in every situation, there is nothing else to be said except to say that Aegislash does induce more 50/50s in a tier already plagued with them, this is one reason of many we want him gone, so I dont know what you guys are saying. Are you saying he doesnt ever create situations that are 50/50s? If so, you are mistaken. I am happy this is coming to an end because all I am seeing are people taking one tiny trait of aegislash and trying to make it not seem so bad, and it is getting old.

I don't really like this argument. The reason we are addressing the 50/50 argument is because pro-ban people keep bringing it up as a valid reason that Aegislash should be banned. I don't believe it's a valid argument, hence why I'm addressing it. I have never argued that Aegislash has reliable counters, since I believe with one of it's sets - it will be beaten by any counter. I don't think this is grounds for making it broken though. As someone mentioned Specs Hydreigon and other pokemon which were uncounterable. Even M-Absol is Uncounterable with the multitude of move choices it has.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say we are isolating the 50/50 argument. I shouldn't be expected to refute every reason that Aegislash should be banned in one post. It would be lengthy and unnecessary, I would rather refute the 50/50 argument since it makes no sense.

And the situation you brought up with Conkeldurr is still not a 50/50. There are other options like scouting sets, switching to a "counter" if you want to take that risk etc. For example, you could Knock Off to see if Aegislash is even running KS. If it is running KS... Well, then it lacks the coverage to beat some of its counters and you switch appropriately. If it isn't running it, you just made a large hole in Aegislash. There are better pokemon to check Aegislash than Conkeldurr anyways. Additionally, this would only be a true 50/50 if they were each the last pokemon in the battle and could be KOed or 2HKOed by one another.

Please, get this cancerous piece of shit out of OU.

Somehow swearing multiple times in your post and ranting about Aegislash's brokenness did not convince me that it deserves to be banned.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Actually yes, i do enjoy it as it is. And the exact same pokemon everywhere... do you think thats going to change if we ban Aegi? Or Thundy? Or Lando? Or every A rank? No it wont. There will always be mons around that have very little drawbacks compared to others and fit into many teams and you will always see them alot. There will always be S rank mons, bans wont change that.

And it seems you missread something. We re not packing 2 checks for Aegi, but for most/every A/S rank threat. With just 1 check you easily end up at a big disadvantage where the opponent can put huge pressure on you or where he simply has a set that kills your only check.

And i am not arguing for Aegi to stay because he keeps Medi etc in check. I want him to stay because i dont think he is broken he is a good check to alot of things that would be more troublesome without him but that doesnt make him broken. Aldaron made the statement that there are to many threats to handle with just 6 slots. From my experience its more the opposite. There are many threats around that have like 2 or 3 half way decent counters so you have to use one of them on every team. Without Aegi its just going to be one less check for many things limiting the possible choices futher.

That last slot doesnt matter most of the time in practice tbh. For the most part because 90% of the Aegis are the standard tank set so suprises are rare to begin with. And even if my Mandy or Hippo gets a toxic, care? They are still solid switchins and force him out and they can heal off the toxic damage. With cleric support it matters even less. And even if i end up losing them there are usually 2 or 3 other mons of the team that have EQ, strong special attacks or are called Bisharp so again, care?

Always beeing S class is no reason to ban something imo, that just means the mon is good and can adapt to meta changes, unless they get banned Zard X and the Genies are also very unlikely to ever leave the S rank. And no he is not comparable to Blaziken, Blaziken can win games on its own if the opponent makes a mistake. Aegi does nothing thats even remotely close to that.

I didnt play gen 5 but going by what i ve read so far regarding gen 5 the meta there was a complete mess and far from perfectly balanced.

1 check for aeg..dud aegislash has so many sets that no matter what you run it can get beat. Also i've seen many people say it should stay for medi, i never said it was broken either but that doesn't mean it should stay ou. In fact it's too balanced of a poke, it can fill every role and overall decides the metagame. Also I know many people who got to 2000's+ where people know what they're doing and you don't see the same aegi anywhere. Also doesn't aegi have 5 other pokes? Bisharp gets beat by tons of pokes including conkeldurr for example, also using cleric support doesn't mean you beat aegislash and if you manage to get rid of the cleric it could be gg right there. Also I never said it should be banned for being s-class. The fact tho that it's been s-class since day one for 9 months straight along with top usage clearly shows that even with counters people have been trying to make aegislash could defeat them all an. Also can't aegislash win games on it's own if the opponent makes a mistake? Like as i said earlier letting their cleric die or switching into a skarm on a mixed could easily decide the game if you have other pokes to clean up. Gen 5 was also wayy more balanced from todays game, for starters you had no idea what the other person would run, rain, sand, hail, sun, no weather?


All i'm trying to say anyways is that aegislash made a total mess of the metagame and it's not a good thing if you don't realize that lol.

 

[Lucario1313]

All i'm trying to say anyways is that aegislash made a total mess of the metagame and it's not a good thing if you don't realize that lol.

After the 59 pages on here, you should be able to recognize that reasonable people can have different opinions about this.

 

[Srn]

All i'm trying to say anyways is that aegislash made a total mess of the metagame and it's not a good thing if you don't realize that lol.

Ok, so aegislash has centralized the meta around it, yeah. But is that necessarily a bad thing? IS centralization a BAD thing??? Look at gen 5 ubers for example. That tier was hypercentralized, with kyogre receiving basically 50%~ usage. Yet you can ask any respectable ubers player about gen 5 ubers and they will tell you it was a very enjoyable tier. Many playstyles were viable, and it was generally a clean and fun metagame, despite being insanely centralized around a few pokemon.

Or are you implying that aegislash has messed up the metagame in some other way? Because its definitely not "broken" in terms of moves or stats or anything like that; solid but not broken.

EDIT: @ below vvvvv

Why I believe Aegislash is unhealthy for the tier:


Versatility

Aegislash can fit on nearly any team and perform many roles at once, Toxic helping Bulky Offense teams cripple walls including Hippowdon, Mandibuzz to effectively carry out a game plan, by placing a timer on said counters, or forcing a switch to a cleric at some point in the battle.

Mixed can be used to break counters such as Heatran, Mandibuzz, Hippodown, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Amoonguss, with the ability to 2HKO each of them with the appropriate move (Iron Head is a guaranteed 2HKO on Special Defensive Amoonguss after Stealth Rock, and Sacred Sword which can be used to gain a surprise KO on the likes of Bisharp on a double switch, which will most likely opt for Pursuit or Knock Off against an unrevealed Aegislash set.

Swords Dance and Mixed sets can be paired with teammates that require Heatran and Mandibuzz to be removed from the field, such as Talonflame, Charizard X, and Mega Mawile, as Aegislash can OHKO both with +2 Head Smash or severely weaken counters with LO Flash Cannon and Sacred Sword.

Bulky pivot sets trade speed for longevity and the ability to fire off repeated attacks throughout the course of a battle, and can even carry support moves like Pursuit, to aid Charizard Y and Keldeo in spamming powerful STAB attacks.

With a Pokemon like Aegislash, that has many viable sets, the only way to determine which set it is guesswork, until an item and moves are shown.


Low Risk High Reward

Aegislash defines the term “Offensive Pivot,” sporting potential base 150 offenses and defenses as well as retaining amazing offensive and defensive typing, in Steel Ghost. Other offensive pivots such as Rotom-W and Landorus-T share great typing and are able to switch into a multitude of attacks, but suffer because they are unable to deal great amounts of damage in return, due to being forced to place their EVs in HP as well as in a defensive stat to retain their respectable bulk, ultimately making them setup fodder for other threats in the game.



Also setting the Sword apart from other pivots in the game is the skill required to utilize it effectively. So long as the Aegislash user understands the basic mechanics of King’s Shield and Stance Change, they are able to force mind games against top level battlers of when to revert to Shield form or attack once more, and can emerge victorious out of situations they would otherwise have no chance at winning. While not reaching the level of Swagger in un-competitiveness, this should still be looked into, as it is unhealthy for
the tier itself.


It helps prevent the metagame from becoming offensive.

Aegislash itself both helps and hinders offense as a play style due to its amazing typing and its signature move in King’s Shield. Commonly stated, “a metagame without Aegislash would result in chaotic metagame in which mons such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and Mega Pinsir will force teams to carry counters such as Slowbro, Gliscor, and Heatran on balanced teams,” is faulty.

Our purpose is to create the healthiest metagame possible, in which many, if not all, play styles are viable, meaning that if threats such as Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Pinsir are truly broken, they should be banned regardless of the presence of Aegislash in the tier.

By promoting the use of a blanket check in the tier, we do nothing but hide the brokenness of each threat post the potential Aegislash ban. If anything, not wanting to ban Aegislash due to the fear of a chaotic metagame shows how uncommitted most of us are to creating the perfect metagame.

Aegislash’s presence in the tier is not a healthy one, but is it justifiable to ban a Pokemon for being “unhealthy” for the metagame as opposed to “broken?” I believe so.

I really cannot help but doubt your last argument. Sure, aegislash has respectable defensive capabilities (no reliable recovery but meh), but aegislash is honestly promotes offense more because it is so amazing on offensive teams. It is such a blanket check against so many pokemon that just destroy offense, such as thundurus and Azumarill. While it may not be able to do much back, it can take a hit and definitely help reposition the team, which is invaluable. Offensive teams really tend to struggle against these threats and often need rather specialized checks/lures to take them on, like hp grass greninja or wacan berry manaphy (nothing on offense takes on mega mawile well :[ ) The point is, its such a gigantic band-aid to offensive teams that it actually promotes them, not the other way around.

 

[4daptability]

Why I believe Aegislash is unhealthy for the tier:


Versatility

Aegislash can fit on nearly any team and perform many roles at once, Toxic helping Bulky Offense teams cripple walls including Hippowdon, Mandibuzz to effectively carry out a game plan, by placing a timer on said counters, or forcing a switch to a cleric at some point in the battle.

Mixed can be used to break counters such as Heatran, Mandibuzz, Hippodown, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Amoonguss, with the ability to 2HKO each of them with the appropriate move (Iron Head is a guaranteed 2HKO on Special Defensive Amoonguss after Stealth Rock, and Sacred Sword which can be used to gain a surprise KO on the likes of Bisharp on a double switch, which will most likely opt for Pursuit or Knock Off against an unrevealed Aegislash set.

Swords Dance and Mixed sets can be paired with teammates that require Heatran and Mandibuzz to be removed from the field, such as Talonflame, Charizard X, and Mega Mawile, as Aegislash can OHKO both with +2 Head Smash or severely weaken counters with LO Flash Cannon and Sacred Sword.

Bulky pivot sets trade speed for longevity and the ability to fire off repeated attacks throughout the course of a battle, and can even carry support moves like Pursuit, to aid Charizard Y and Keldeo in spamming powerful STAB attacks.

With a Pokemon like Aegislash, that has many viable sets, the only way to determine which set it is guesswork, until an item and moves are shown.


Low Risk High Reward

Aegislash defines the term “Offensive Pivot,” sporting potential base 150 offenses and defenses as well as retaining amazing offensive and defensive typing, in Steel Ghost. Other offensive pivots such as Rotom-W and Landorus-T share great typing and are able to switch into a multitude of attacks, but suffer because they are unable to deal great amounts of damage in return, due to being forced to place their EVs in HP as well as in a defensive stat to retain their respectable bulk, ultimately making them setup fodder for other threats in the game.



Also setting the Sword apart from other pivots in the game is the skill required to utilize it effectively. So long as the Aegislash user understands the basic mechanics of King’s Shield and Stance Change, they are able to force mind games against top level battlers of when to revert to Shield form or attack once more, and can emerge victorious out of situations they would otherwise have no chance at winning. While not reaching the level of Swagger in un-competitiveness, this should still be looked into, as it is unhealthy for the tier itself.


It helps prevent the metagame from becoming offensive.

Aegislash itself both helps and hinders offense as a play style due to its amazing typing and its signature move in King’s Shield, forcing special attacks or non-contact attacks to be run, while limiting the viability of Pokemon that run a specific coverage move for Aegislash (although there are other reasons they are not as viable as they potentially are). In terms of helping offense, it checks many threats such as Thundurus, Azumarill, and Terrakion, Breloom, Excadrill, and Landorus (with a Balloon), as well as other noted Mega mons, ultimately decreasing the amount of thought put into team building. Commonly stated, “a metagame without Aegislash would result in chaotic metagame in which mons such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, and Mega Pinsir will force teams to carry counters such as Slowbro, Gliscor, and Heatran on balanced teams,” is faulty.

Our purpose is to create the healthiest metagame possible, in which many, if not all, play styles are viable, meaning that if threats such as Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Pinsir are truly broken, they should be banned regardless of the presence of Aegislash in the tier.

By promoting the use of a blanket check in the tier, we do nothing but hide the brokenness of each threat post the potential Aegislash ban. If anything, not wanting to ban Aegislash due to the fear of a chaotic metagame shows how uncommitted most of us are to creating the perfect metagame.

Aegislash’s presence in the tier is not a healthy one, but is it justifiable to ban a Pokemon for being “unhealthy” for the metagame as opposed to “broken?” I believe so.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Yea um mega scizor the only reason i pointed out 50/50 specifically was because there were posts stating, "this point will either make or break aegi." There were also just too many posts about that were unrefuted so I brought it up. As expected no real rebuttal to that point. I think the most deciding factor is subjective. There's no doubting aegislash's centralization ,but is it necessarily a bad thing? I think the meta is perfectly diverse at the moment. By that I mean not having to worry about too many threats.

My POV is that banning aegis will actually have the opposite effect on what you guys are expecting. Post-Aegi I would need something to check all those pokes thus creating pressure on team building. However if I fill up those new major team holes I'm bound to have to leave weak or super weak to things I used to be able to cover. Thus, relying on matchups over skill. Long story short, it will take multiple pokes on a team just to attempt to do what aegis could do/discourage or prevent.

edit: basically gen V syndrome :(

 

[Yogofu]

the problem is: if we ban Aegi now (and i think it does deserve it) we have to suspect Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Guardevoir and (maybe) Talonflame (if not much more pokemon) asap. Aegislash is the only thing that keeps this extremly powerfull Pokemon away from being top picks. I actually did start to build teams with Mega-Pinsir and Heracross. They just mop the floor with everything but Aegislash and Talonflame. Walls like Gliscor, Ferrothorn, Porygon 2, or Forretress just die in 2 Hits. Everything else is 1HKO in 90% of the cases (and if you run a SD set everything dies in 1 hit).

 

[haunter]

the problem is: if we ban Aegi now (and i think it does deserve it) we have to suspect Mega-Medicham, Mega-Heracross, Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Guardevoir and (maybe) Talonflame (if not much more pokemon) asap. Aegislash is the only thing that keeps this extremly powerfull Pokemon away from being top picks. I actually did start to build teams with Mega-Pinsir and Heracross. They just mop the floor with everything but Aegislash and Talonflame. Walls like Gliscor, Ferrothorn, Porygon 2, or Forretress just die in 2 Hits. Everything else is 1HKO in 90% of the cases (and if you run a SD set everything dies in 1 hit).

It has been stated countless times that this is a terrible anti-ban argument. If something is broken/unhealthy for the metagame, we remove it regardless of how many other Pokémon become broken after its removal. If Mega-Medicham, Gardevoir and Heracross prove to be overpowered into an Aegislash-less metagame, we ban them as well. That said, from what I've seen on the ladder, these Pokémon are far from being broken even without Aegislash checking them. Heracross is a great wall breaker but it needs a lot of support to sweep teams, being incredibly slow. Gardevoir's physical defense in pathetic and 100 base speed with no boosting move makes it extremely easy to revenge kill. Medicham is frail as well and has to rely on an a risky move like high jump kick (Ghost types, protect and 90% accuracy make it a less than ideal move to spam) to dish out serious damage.

I also disagree with the notion that Aegislash has overcentralized the metagame around it. While 2 weeks of testing are definitely not enough to determine a major metagame shift, I haven't noticed any relevant changes in this virtual Aegislash-less environment. With the exception of the afore mentioned rise in usage of Mega-Gardevoir/Heracross/Medicham, I've continued to see the same teams we're used to encounter on the standard OU ladder, with CBB/Unbirthday's team being almost everywhere (and with lots of people making the reqs with it). While Aegislash has definitely been a metagame-defining Pokémon so far, I think that the brief but meaningful suspect ladder experience has shown us that its absence isn't promoting as much diversity as many of us probably expected.

 

[Oriolous]

I would just like to point out that most of these judgements that you people are passing are based SOLELY on how Pokemon Showdown is. I play exclusively on cartridge with people that lurk about in Livestreams on twitch and I have seen only 3 Aegislash in the past 6 months. And each of those Aegislash, which were three different sets, were each easily handled by Pokemon that plenty of competent people on cartridge are using: Lando, Zard X, and Bisharp. Bisharp actually took out the supposed Sacred Sword of death set. How do I know this? I was the one who actually killed it.

Smogon isn't just for simulators. Everyone on the net who plays competitive Pokemon, from Serebii to live streamers, follow these rules ALMOST to the letter. Even when they disagree with how we ban things. The Showdown meta and the cartridge meta are two COMPLETELY different metagames that, while they will overlap, have differing amounts of usage.

I will admit, I cannot provide a better argument than "consider that cartridge and Showdown are two metas," so I will simply say: Take this into consideration on this last (second to last?) day before the vote. If the Showdown meta is so cancerous because of Aegislash, why don't you try the cartridge and Twitch metas instead?

Thank you for reading.

 

[ginganinja]

Because we don't force you to adopt our rules. If you and your group of friends find it fun to have Aegislash in the metagame, then don't use our tiers, like seriously, its not like we are holding a gun to your head forcing you to play things our way. We use Showdown because it presents (arguably) one of the most active competitive metagame servers on the Web. Thus, it gives us a much better idea as to whether Aegislash is broken over, say, 100 battles, whereas your entire experience has been...what, 3 battles? Against opponents that could be terrible for all we know? Point being, we use Showdown because you can expect to get a high number of battles against quality opposition (well thats the theory anyway...) ---> leads to better ideas as to whether something is broken or not.

As I said above, if you don't like it, then don't play it, you have the freedom to make your own rules if you don't want your precious cartridge meta ruined, but don't use this as an argument for why we should/should not ban something.

 

[Bizdis]

I realise this is going to be quite a quick post, but it's worth noting that many of the supposedly "unviable pokemon SOLELY because of Aegislash" actually have very different reasons why they are bad now. Starmie is outclassed by Greninja, Jirachi gained two new weaknesses, and a plethora of threats that outspeed and OHKO it. Celebi is actually still decent, but Talonflame and competition from Mega Venusaur has had an impact on its serious decline in usage too. Promoting diversity is a bad argument, because this is about as diverse as the meta is going to get - OU has always been about 50 or so mons, and making Gardevoir, Heracross, and Medicham more common, when they already have a decent amount of usage, will not change the meta much.

Oh, also, in the same vein, banning Aegislash makes the meta no less of a slugfest than it is now, if anything, it becomes more offensive.

 

[Jarrod]

They can. Mamoswine, scarf Kyurem-Black, Greninja, Raikou etc. check them.

All Aegislash variants are checked by Jolly Bisharp, Charizard-Y, specs Heatran, Sp. Def Gliscor etc. Not saying they are a "simple" answer by any means, nor am I saying Aegislash has no way around them. But they are checks by the same standard as those you have listed for Lando-I and Thund-I

 

[Axal]

I would like to mention that after getting reqs and coming back to the regular ou ladder, I 100% agree in that I have not seen any major shift in teams. Even the diversity that people expected on the suspect ladder was not present simply because aegis is not the single pokemon and sole reason that is holding back pokemon like mega-heracross and mega-medicham (ex: talonflame also plays a role). This suggests that aegis is not as centralizing to the metagame as previously thought.

Aegis is checked by the vast majority of hyper offense teams by maintaining offensive pressure. I did not make any specific considerations to aegis between the two ladders, mons like lando-I, bisharp and specs keldeo (which 2hkos most aegis variants), that are widely used in the meta, intrinsically deal with aegis. These mons are not on my team to deal with aegis, but because they are good and work well. Aegis is simply another pokemon that they can deal with. If a team is well built and synergizes well, as long as offensive pressure is maintained, aegis is seen to be not as over powered as it looks on paper.

I can not speak on behalf of stall users as I am not experienced in such play

 

[TheEnder]

I would like to mention that after getting reqs and coming back to the regular ou ladder, I 100% agree in that I have not seen any major shift in teams. Even the diversity that people expected on the suspect ladder was not present simply because aegis is not the single pokemon and sole reason that is holding back pokemon like mega-heracross and mega-medicham (ex: talonflame also plays a role). This suggests that aegis is not as centralizing to the metagame as previously thought.

Aegis is checked by the vast majority of hyper offense teams by maintaining offensive pressure. I did not make any specific considerations to aegis between the two ladders, mons like lando-I, bisharp and specs keldeo (which 2hkos most aegis variants), that are widely used in the meta, intrinsically deal with aegis. These mons are not on my team to deal with aegis, but because they are good and work well. Aegis is simply another pokemon that they can deal with. If a team is well built and synergizes well, as long as offensive pressure is maintained, aegis is seen to be not as over powered as it looks on paper.

I can not speak on behalf of stall users as I am not experienced in such play

After getting reqs and now coming back to playing tours and on the ladder, where Aegi is still OU, I see a lot more Mandibuzz, SpD Hippowdon, and checks to Aegislash in general. The diversity in teams may not show directly on the suspect ladder, becuase the meta without Aegislash is still very young, but I think that if Aegi gets banned we will see more variety as the metagame will adapt to the new threats that will come forward, and the new coverage-moves sweepers will run.

I also have to disagree with you on your point about Aegislash not being the thing holding Gardevoir and Heracross back. Aegislash is the only poke resisting Garde's dual STAB's, who is also not crippled completely by Will-O-Wisp. Aegislash is also the only thing hindering Heracross from running SD > EQ, which significantly lowers it's stallbreaking-capabilities. Like every other poke Aegislash can be dealt with, and rkilled, but having one poke in the metagame forcing almost every offensive poke to run coverage specifically for it, isn't really what I'd call healthy :/

 

[Srn]

After getting reqs and now coming back to playing tours and on the ladder, where Aegi is still OU, I see a lot more Mandibuzz, SpD Hippowdon, and checks to Aegislash in general. The diversity in teams may not show directly on the suspect ladder, becuase the meta without Aegislash is still very young, but I think that if Aegi gets banned we will see more variety as the metagame will adapt to the new threats that will come forward, and the new coverage-moves sweepers will run.

I also have to disagree with you on your point about Aegislash not being the thing holding Gardevoir and Heracross back. Aegislash is the only poke resisting Garde's dual STAB's, who is also not crippled completely by Will-O-Wisp. Aegislash is also the only thing hindering Heracross from running SD > EQ, which significantly lowers it's stallbreaking-capabilities. Like every other poke Aegislash can be dealt with, and rkilled, but having one poke in the metagame forcing almost every offensive poke to run coverage specifically for it, isn't really what I'd call healthy :/

Uh about mega garde, literally any steel type not named bisharp resists its stabs. Whats important is whether you get shit on by focus blast or not, which is what separates aegislash and scizor from say, ferrothorn and heatran. Victini also resists its stabs AND focus blast, so thats cool.

About checks to aegislash being more present or not, I'd love to point out the HARSH drop in usage of bisharp; that thing is literally gone. There were two main uses of bisharp: 1) punish defogs or 2) trap aegislash. Scarftar is better at trapping lati@s so not gonna put that as a use. Since deoxys-(d) was banned, it wasn't as easy to set up hazards, and thus wasn't as easy to abuse them, which then lead to the first drop in usage of bisharp. But then bisharp is paired with mega garde, mega cross, and mega cham solely (more or less) to get rid of aegislash. Once you don't even need the bisharp support, these megas ran wild on the suspect ladder, and bisharp saw almost no usage.
I think bisharp's plummet in usage is fairly good evidence of how centralizing aegislash is.

 

[Karxrida]

Uh about mega garde, literally any steel type not named bisharp resists its stabs. Whats important is whether you get shit on by focus blast or not, which is what separates aegislash and scizor from say, ferrothorn and heatran. Victini also resists its stabs AND focus blast, so thats cool.

About checks to aegislash being more present or not, I'd love to point out the HARSH drop in usage of bisharp; that thing is literally gone. There were two main uses of bisharp: 1) punish defogs or 2) trap aegislash. Scarftar is better at trapping lati@s so not gonna put that as a use. Since deoxys-(d) was banned, it wasn't as easy to set up hazards, and thus wasn't as easy to abuse them, which then lead to the first drop in usage of bisharp. But then bisharp is paired with mega garde, mega cross, and mega cham solely (more or less) to get rid of aegislash. Once you don't even need the bisharp support, these megas ran wild on the suspect ladder, and bisharp saw almost no usage.
I think bisharp's plummet in usage is fairly good evidence of how centralizing aegislash is.

Bisharp is exactly 1 Pokemon, which is not enough evidence to say Aegislash is overcentralizing. It's still OU viable as a way to punish Defog, spam Knock Off, sweep (screw you Intimidate), and doesn't kill momentum like ScarfTar does when Pursuit Trapping.

 

[Sun King]

Uh about mega garde, literally any steel type not named bisharp resists its stabs. Whats important is whether you get shit on by focus blast or not, which is what separates aegislash and scizor from say, ferrothorn and heatran. Victini also resists its stabs AND focus blast, so thats cool.

About checks to aegislash being more present or not, I'd love to point out the HARSH drop in usage of bisharp; that thing is literally gone. There were two main uses of bisharp: 1) punish defogs or 2) trap aegislash. Scarftar is better at trapping lati@s so not gonna put that as a use. Since deoxys-(d) was banned, it wasn't as easy to set up hazards, and thus wasn't as easy to abuse them, which then lead to the first drop in usage of bisharp. But then bisharp is paired with mega garde, mega cross, and mega cham solely (more or less) to get rid of aegislash. Once you don't even need the bisharp support, these megas ran wild on the suspect ladder, and bisharp saw almost no usage.
I think bisharp's plummet in usage is fairly good evidence of how centralizing aegislash is.

Perhaps Bisharp's drop in usage could indicate how important a figure Aegislash was in the meta, but I don't think that people completely caught on to how devastating Bisharp/Medicham cores can be. Most of Medicham's common "counters" (I put that in quotations because many of them depend largely on the coverage Medicham is running or they're soft counters or niche) are weak to dark. What Bisharp loses in trapping Aegislash, he gains in trapping a host of niche counters. What this tells me is that 2 weeks was not enough time for the meta to settle down (I understand that I'm echoing what some people are saying).

Haunter Is it possible to extend the duration of the suspect test? I'm new to Smogon this generation, so I'm not sure if there is precedent for that, or if you think it's feasible. I would be curious to see how the metagame ends up, but I obviously don't want to see Aegislash go if he's not broken. EDIT: or unhealthy

 

[haunter]

Haunter Is it possible to extend the duration of the suspect test? I'm new to Smogon this generation, so I'm not sure if there is precedent for that, or if you think it's feasible. I would be curious to see how the metagame ends up, but I obviously don't want to see Aegislash go if he's not broken. EDIT: or unhealthy

No. There is no precedent in that sense and, anyway, major metagame shifts can take months to occurr. We can't really wait for the Suspect meta to adapt to Aegislash's absence and then vote on it.

 

[ajnauron]

For those who say that if I bring in a check Aegislash will just switch out, that's not taking into account momentum. HO does a lot of volt-turning, bringing in stuff to threaten/bluff certain sets/moves, and double switches in order to gain momentum for free turns to setup. If you switch out, I'm either going to hit your predicted switch in with a super effective/strong neutral move, wearing down your team, or setup on you. I'm not a fantastic player and I've never had any trouble with Aegislash, and after learning how predictable it is I was never swept by one again. Gloating IS a fantastic player, having been #1 on the OU ladder multiple times, and HE says he's never had any trouble with it.

King's Shield can be predictable. Ignoring the plethora of non-contact moves that can easily 2HKO him while the best he can do is a weak Shadow Sneak, It's basically Protect at best and Truant at worst - first, it's incredibly unlikely that a player will KS twice due to the chance of the move failing. Second, you already know that unless you're at low health/Aegislash has a sub the opponent is very likely to KS after each attack, upon which you can do whatever you like, setup, WoW, spam non-contact moves etc.

Aegislash doesn't force the metagame to adopt obscure counters, as people unknowingly pack checks to him without even realizing it due to how easy it is to pack Fire/Ground/Dark moves. You probably have multiple pokemon that can switch in and use a strong neutral move to deal significant damage at least once. These moves greatly decrease his ability to stay in and force the rest of his team to take hits for him.

Aegislash has perfect coverage, but there's a difference between perfect coverage and great super-effective coverage from Genesect, which was also argued against with this same "multiple good sets" argument. Aegislash's sets have far less offensive diversity than Genesect's. Aegislash's offensive moves have nowhere near that level of super-effective strength, base power, or momentum due to his low speed. His defenses are honestly unremarkable with the common sets being used - I see no more difficulty dealing damage to him than I do with any other pokemon taking super effective hits or even strong neutral hits, which he will always be taking due to his low speed and vulnerability to widely used offensive moves. I have never thought of him as a tank. If he does put all EVs into defenses he's going to be in trouble when I taunt him, because I'll likely OHKO Blade Forme with pretty much anything, he won't be able to stall with KS, and his Shadow Balls will be even weaker.

Usually when using Aegislash, it comes down to Aegislash either staying in and losing >50% of his health due to some strong attack(upon which he can be easily revenged) used by something with higher speed(which is incredibly easy to find given how low his speed is) or switching out and giving more momentum to the opposing team, so I don't use Aegislash and I have no more problem beating him than any other pokemon. Honestly I thought that this understanding of his limitations was universal given how long we have used and allowed Aegislash in XY OU, and that we had acknowledged that these limitations made it fair. The high risk-high reward is broken into the high risk of being 2HKOed/setup on/Burned/ and the high reward of using attacks with perfect coverage and unremarkable base power. I'll pass, SD Scizor with Bullet Punch+Superpower+Knock Off does this better.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

It's so versatile it can be molded to fit your team exactly. Have trouble with walls in general? Use SubToxic. Need a bulky pivot that can dish out powerful attacks? Use the standard Leftovers set. Need a lure to Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran and other such walls? Use Swords Dance. The fact that I can essentially take a team and put the proper Aegislash on it and make it better shows that it's presence in the meta is cancerous. Did I mention the ridiculous role compression? SubToxic can act as a counter to various pokemon AND as a pivot! Swords Dance w/ Air Balloon allows it to function as a spinblocker! The leftovers set can function as a wall breaker and pursuit trapper! That isn't even all the goddamn sets. It's not the fact that it's uncounterable that makes its presence in the meta toxic, its the fact that it has ridiculous role capacity and how efficient it is at those roles.

I've gotta ask, when did versatility become a means for a ban? because it's capable of playing many roles it's ban worthy? mLucario was versatile, yes, BUT, it was because it could simply run though teams if it was given the chance, which it often was, that it was booted. Aegi is not the same. Dragonite is Versatile as all shit as well. It can be a late game sweeper, a phazer,a staller, a tank, a rain sweeper, a shuffler, a wall breaker, so many possibilities, but the question is, does that make it broken? Of course not. Just because something keeps you guessing, does not make it broken by default (at least it shouldn't be). Now, if Aegi was simply clicking the win button (i.e mKanga, mLuke, mGengar) I could see the problem. However, it's not, and it can't.

I'm sorry, but these arguments against the 50/50s (which as I stated before are everywhere with every Pokemon when given the opportunity) and it's versatility aren't really convincing me this thing is ban worthy. It just means it's good at what it does.

Good 'mon =/= broken.