1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Announcement np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by gr8astard, Jul 11, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. gr8astard

    gr8astard The Based Lord? My balls!!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL + WCoP Winnerwon the 9th Official Smogon Tournament
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
    Messages:
    390
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Hey there guys, the OU Council has decided to suspect test Aegislash this round. There have been calls by players across the spectrum to give Aegislash a suspect test, so that's exactly what's gonna happen.

    To get the chance to vote, you'll need to achieve a COIL rating of 2700 or more on the OU Suspect Test ladder (in which Aegislash will be banned) that will be implemented very soon. Please note that this rating may not be the final rating required, and we reserve the right to increase or decrease the requirements based upon the first week of laddering. The suspect test will last for 2 weeks and will end on Saturday 26 July 11:59pm EST. The vote will take place no more than a week after that.

    Use this thread to discuss the suspects and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact me, Aldaron, Nachos, Haunter or M Dragon through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

    Good luck and have fun laddering!

    Antar's edit: as with the previous OU tests, the B value for this test is 17.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

    N=17.0/log2(40*GXE/2700)

    (Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

    Here are some sample values:
    Code:
    GXE N
    100 30
    90 41 
    85 52 
    80 70 
    75 112 
    70 324
    Credit for the illustration goes to anundeadboy.
  2. Haunter

    Haunter 100% avocado
    is an official Team Rateris a Battle Server Administratoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris an Administratoris a Tutor Alumnus
    Líder máximo

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,919
    Please no one liners nor retarded/uninformed posts, thank you very much.
  3. AceStarThe3rd

    AceStarThe3rd

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2012
    Messages:
    24
    I think with Aegislash banned, we can finally see a lot more Mega Pokemon in the Metagame, especially Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Medicham; amongst other Pokemon too!
    Its typing is just too good defensively and offensively, and he King's Shield 50/50s are just a mess. It can fit on almost any type of team due to its DeoD/DeoN stats and diverse movepoll.

    And no, running Mandibuzz or Bisharp is not acceptable
    Very excited about this suspect; I hope the community makes the most logical decision, because this monster just needs to go right into Ubers where he rightfully belongs! =D

    Here's a video of my thoughts Smogon Aegislash OU Ban Suspect Test - Thoughts & Reactions
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  4. TFL

    TFL

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2013
    Messages:
    95
    Why ban Aegislash? Here's why!: It possesses a pseudo 720 BST. That's even higher than Kyurem-B. And it still has a lot over it. Aegislash has great typing offensively and defensively. Ghost has only one resist and one immunity. And King's Shield makes it impossible to trap outside of Bisharp, which can still be outsped and KOed with a fast Sacred Sword set. While we're talking about King's Shield, King's Shield has a negative impact on the meta by forcing many 50/50s. Aegislash also has many sets that can be run, different sets having different counters at that. So your team has to be stacked to deal with it. Aegislash's presence alone makes many Pokemon subpar or just generally worse than what they could be, while at the same time preventing Rapid Spinners outside of Excadrill from being viable. Individually, each trait doesn't make it banworthy, but a single mon has all of these!

    And that's why I'm planning to vote it Uber. Lets see the anti-ban arguments~
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  5. G Herbo

    G Herbo

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Aegislash is one of the most centralized things Ou has ever seen, But that alone doesnt call for it to be baned. Its amazing stats does. 150 attack and special attack? are you kidding me? Aegislash is the best mixed attacker in ou to date.No, i didnt forget it has amazing defences as well. With kings shield it forces 50/50s. It has maybe one of the best coverage moves in shadow ball. It plays on Ho and Stall fairly well. The meta revoles around aegislash atm. Leave the "Just run Bisharp" comments at home please. Bisharp does not counter aegislash. It is simply a check.
    Anjunadeep, Hootie, RyanKoopa and 8 others like this.
  6. Jacks0n

    Jacks0n formerly grassycow

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    249
    With aegis lash banned the meta will be freed up a lot. Pokemon like hawlucha and toxicroak will have some viability, mega voir and medi will become even better as we'll as mega cross, and pinsir will be able to run close combat. :0 Aegi is simply to good for ou this gen, being insanely
    Powerful, insanely
    Bulky ad holding back a tone f the meta. Plz ban.
    MudkipKid, ClefTran, Toljik and 5 others like this.
  7. nyczxjay

    nyczxjay
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    657
    I've never considered Aegislash broken, but I do acknowledge the fact that it makes things like Starmie unviable in OU. I'm interested in seeing how the metagame will change on the suspect ladder. I guess I was on the no-ban side but now that I sit down and actually give it some thought I'm not sure anymore... should be an interesting suspect test..
    RyanKoopa and Mentalink like this.
  8. Gazel

    Gazel

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2014
    Messages:
    5
    I do not agree with the ban of aegislash,guys you say "with the aegis ban the meta will be better,pokèmon like heracross or hawluncha will become even better etc"
    The problem isn't aegislash,there are counters or checkers for him,(mandibuzz,Tar,Tran etc)
    the real problem for pokèmons like hawluncha or heracross is Talonflame,not only aegi!
  9. Jirachee

    Jirachee Kaleidoscope
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    1,715
    Aegislash is fucking ridiculous. It has options to deal with just about any of its common switch ins. Shadow Ball coming from 150 SpA is absolutely ridiculous so it really limits the amount of things that can reliably switch into it. While things like Mandibuzz and Hippowdon are excellent for beating standard sets, they get owned by SubToxic (same with just about any defensive switch-in). Bisharp is a great check but it gets destroyed by the fast set or at least has a hard time switching in because of Sacred Sword being p much standard. Tyranitar sounds like a great Pokemon to beat it, but in reality it has a hard time beating it reliably because Choice Sets get scouted by King's Shield, denying the ability to use Pursuit, while MegaTar DDers are easy to identify from team preview. Offensive checks such as Landorus hate switching in because they have a hard time taking Shadow Ball + Sneak unless they're 100% healthy, in which case the Aegislash player can just switch out and continue beating down the opponent later.

    Aegislash also has the capacity to control games extremely easily which gives an unfair advantage to its user. King's Shield forces a ton of 50/50s which if they turn into the player's favor, will force the opponent into very predictable moves. Losing the 50/50 will never be as harmful for the Aegislash player unless they do it against something that can set up, in which case it's not really a 50/50. I think that King's Shield on a Pokemon as powerful and bulky as Aegislash makes it extremely unfair for the opponent.

    get this pos outta here
  10. michaeloche

    michaeloche

    Joined:
    May 23, 2013
    Messages:
    740
    Nice job Aldaron for spoiling it.

    Anyway, there's no Pokemon quite like Aegislash. Able to change its stats pretty much at will, it puts both its offensive and defensive capabilities to good use. It has a variety of sets that it can use, from Swords Dance to mixed wallbreaker to Sub+Toxic abuse. There's no doubt it's made an impact in OU.

    But while it is powerful, I don't believe it is broken at this time. There are some Pokemon that can defeat it without compromising their overall viability. Examples:

    Mandibuzz: Resists Ghost STAB and doesn't mind the other attacks. Can also Taunt, WW, or spam Foul Play, not minding King's Shield.

    Mega Venusaur: 252/0 is not even 2HKOed by 252+ Shadow Ball unless rocks are up, and even then, it's a tiny chance. Can put it to sleep and/or use Leech Seed, though it needs HP Fire or EQ to actually do anything back.

    Bisharp: Just avoid Sacred Sword and you're good.

    Anything with a powerful SE STAB: Includes, but not limited to, Heatran, Charizard Y, as well as X to an extent, (Mega) Garchomp, (Mega) Tyranitar, and Excadrill. Hell, even random coverage EQs from the likes of DD Dragonite can work too.

    My point? There's enough running around OU already that can defeat Aegislash. With its versatility comes a bit of 4MSS as well, meaning it can't cover everything, so you can exploit that and work around it. It's still very good, but not broken in my opinion. That is, not yet. We'll see how things go in the suspect test. See you all on the ladder.

    Edit: Not real sure if my post is being liked so much because it's on the front page or because of quality.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  11. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,534
    Heatran gets fucked by LO SD 3 attacks, Mendibuzz gets shat on by Sub Toxic. There are no counters to Aegislash without first learning its set, which is not an easy thing to do without crippling/sacking one of your Pokemon. Aegislash is by far the most restrictive presence in the meta (other than Azumarill :toast:), and as TFL already said, it has a pseudo 720 BST, which is obviously absurd for OU standards. Not to mention all the damn 50/50s it creates with King's Shield (shoutout to ShootingStarmie :] ily fren).

    Will right a full post on this later.
    Jaiho, New Light and G Herbo like this.
  12. TheTabKey

    TheTabKey

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    57
    The thing about Aegislash, is that it isn't broken, it just stops so many things from being able to shine.

    I think it'd be interesting to see a ladder without Aegislash, similarly to the No-SR Ladder and see how it effects the metagame, rather than testing with it still there. The game might need Aegislash, but at the same time Aegislash might be broken because of how many things it stops/checks/counters.

    I'd like to see a ladder without Aegislash, and see how that ladder progresses rather than simply going through a normal suspect test to see if Aegislash deserves a ban, because it definitely does not deserve a ban simply for being broken. But it might be better for the meta if it goes.

    Aegislash does have more than a few viable sets, but none of them are so broken that not being able to predict the set before you see it is too big of a detriment to your team.
  13. -Clone-

    -Clone-

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    685
    Here's my opinion on this. I'll go into more detail when I get home.

    I get why Aegis is being suspected. An effective BST of 720 is nothing to scoff at. Add on that Kings Shield is the most annoying little shit for physical attackers is fucking annoying. He has a great Typing in steel/ghost, and can run about 3-4 different sets (probably more, but w/e) that determine what counters him. He uses his low speed to his advantage so he doesn't take a hit in shield form, and has the strongest Shadow Ball in OU.

    However, while this is centralizing, I don't feel that he's particularly unhealthy for the meta. Kings Shield does create 50/50s, but if the Aegis Player gets it wrong they're either facing a boosted set up sweeper or have a dead Aegis on their hands. On top of that, Earthquake and Fire Blast (Lava Plume in the case of Defensive Heatran) are some of the most spammable moves in the game (yes I know levitators and the flying type are things), and they completely bypass KS completely. Mandi completely shuts down all non Sub Toxic or Head Smash sets comfortably (lolWeakness Policy), and bulky grounds won nine times out of ten. I'll Get into this more later.

    I'm not convinced he's ban worthy just yet. This seems like a true suspect test rather than a given like the deos or BP. I may change my vote if I see good arguments, but as for right now I say DO NOT BAN.

    Edit: My full post is here if anyone cares.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
  14. G Herbo

    G Herbo

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    The grounds are his amazing stats and diversity. Aegislash can do ANYTHING on anyteam. It fits well everywhere. Its a great stall mon and a great Offensive mon. I have never seen a pokemon with so much Diversity in ou before. I dont think it should be banned either based on it holding things back and limiting team building. The thing is just too damn powerful
    Calm_Mind_Latias and Jacks0n like this.
  15. Rajikaru

    Rajikaru

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Messages:
    413
    While any pokemon with just Aegislash's stats or its ability probably wouldn't be as potent, these two combined with the typing makes Aegislash insanely powerful without much risk, and is one of the times where having lower speed is better:
    Let's start out with Aegislash being sent out, which is always in Defensive Stance. This means gigantic defensive and specially defensive stats, along with only 2 weakness. Couple this with his speed means that just about every threat he could have outspeeds him, and since he only changes stance when his move executes, he has sky high defenses until he attacks, and then he has sky-high attack stats. Very few pokemon actually go slower than Aegislash and can actually do anything to him, the only one coming to mind being Escavalier, and even then it's not very good anyways, especially with the constant threat of King's Shield. If the Aegislash is running Weakness Policy, even its counters can't do anything to it, as it can easily just King's Shield, Swords Dance as it gets a free sharp boost to both attack stats anyways, and Shadow Sneak its way to victory. Or, alternatively, it can just use one of its STABs to make a dent in most pokemon, King's Shield, and repeat.

    Really, the biggest problem is how King's Shield has Priority like Protect. This means that Aegislash can easily check just about anything, and even predicting the King's Shield and burning it is a crapshoot, as it could just as easily be running either a mixed or Special build, not to mention that thanks to its typing, Aegislash is immune to every form of Priority attack bar Aqua Jet and Ice Shard, both relatively uncommon and barely doing any damage to it anyways. Really, Aegislash is just too versatile, too potent, and too good. The only trues weaknesses I can think of for it is Spikes, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and other Aegislash, and even then King's Shield can easily impede half of them if played right.

    HOWEVER, I don't think it should be banned, not at all, it's just too good for OU. Ubers has threats like Blaziken, Mega Gengar, and Ghost/Dark/Fire Extreme Killer Arceus that can all counter it fairly well if played correctly, meanwhile the only true OU counters are Mandibuzz, Earthquake spammers (assuming Aegi isn't running a Weakness Policy set), and Laza Plume, and even then all of those have counters that can completely halt them.
  16. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons Walking back to you is the hardest thing I can do
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    941
    hello just a friendly reminder that you should NOT base your opinion on whether or not Aegislash should be banned by coming up with mons that will be more/less viable once it's gone, but rather you want to base your opinion solely on whether or not it is actually a broken force in the metagame. Without Talonflame things like Hawlucha and Volcarona, among many, would become more viable but I see none of you vouching for a Talonflame ban. Also, keep in mind that yes, Aegislash forces 50/50s, but that's kinda something that is inherent to competitive Pokemon. Not saying whether or not it's broken imo, but just reminding some of you that it's not about the way it makes some mons less viable but how it performs as a standalone Pokemon.
  17. Mastoise

    Mastoise

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Aegislash should not be banned, it has viable hard counters unlike the previously banned Deo-s,Deo-d and mega Lucario. Just because it centralises the whole meta does not make it ban worthy.

    Also I have used Hawlucha in OU it's decent, yes the banning of Aegi would make it better but it's still viable.
  18. Temporaryanonymous

    Temporaryanonymous
    is a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    465
    Aegislash is probably THE pokemon that has most shaped the meta in XY OU, perhaps even more than Talonflame. The presence of Aegislash on a lot of teams usually requires players to run earthquake as a way to hit it without activating king's shield, and even then, Aegislash's fantastic 150/150 defensive stats and 150/150 offensive stats are just amazing. Furthermore, the amount of sets that Aegislash runs is nearly limitless, from swords dance physical sweeper, mixed pivot with shadow ball, toxic stall, life orb wall-breaker, etc. It truly defines the S rank, a pokemon that can perform "a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits." It's very hard to take down an Aegislash, even knowing its set without a pokemon that's dedicated to counter it (like mandibuzz).

    Is Aegislash centralizing? Without a doubt, as it has very high usage statistics, great stats and typing, and the ability to do so many roles great.
    Is Aegislash broken? I'm still on the fence on this, leaning to yes, but it is definitely one of the pokemon that deserves to get a closer look at in a suspect test like this.
  19. JebusChrist

    JebusChrist

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,466
    This is definitely the most interesting suspect test so far. Since the beginning of X/Y, Aegislash has been a top threat with unrivaled versatility. I personally think that Aegislash should not be banned, but it's very close. On one hand, it has an insane amount of good attributes that will be listed a million times in this thread. On the other hand, it has low speed with only Shadow Sneak for priority. Yes his speed benefits his ability, since you want to take hits in Shield form, but you still have to take the hit. Aegis can only recover HP through leftovers, if it runs them, and it will go down after a few strong hits. It is hard to take down, yes, but chip damage does wear it down. While it's obviously THE OU pokemon, I do not think it should be banned. I'm guessing this will be the closest suspect test by far.
    ColorBurst and Bled like this.
  20. Baharoth

    Baharoth

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    481
    Its getting crazy honestly, Aegi is just a freaking pivot, he tanks some hits and hits back nothing more, no matter how well he might do that, how can something like that be broken? He lacks recovery outside of Lefties and is weak to common attacking types, EQ deserves special mention here as it is a good move in general that almost every mon can learn and that usually 2hkos Aegi.

    Kingshield only works against contact moves and can be exploited by the opponent by simply switching or using status moves and the pressure to predict right is on Aegi most of the time as he risks dying to basicly everything when in blade form. While there arent many counters for all his sets (Amoonguss is the only one i can think of) there are tons of offensive checks for him, nobody has to go out of his way to deal with him as you will usually end up with 2 or 3 checks by default without even thinking about it.

    Ofc he is good, but there is absolutely nothing banworthy on him, if we start banning because of (pseudo)stats we can throw out Kyub and most of the megas as well.
  21. KlefkiHolder

    KlefkiHolder

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Oh, this was quick. Thought it'd be a bit longer before this happened but w/e.

    Alright so Aegislash is something that I feel should be banned... Its powerful, versatile, can shift a few things around in its moveset to beat a bunch of other stuff. Seriously, there are just sooo many sets that are all each effective (Off the top of my head I can think of SD 3 Atks, LO 4 Atks, SubToxic, different variants of Crumbler that all operate differently in their own rights... there's a lot). Now, I dont think that any one of these is too strong in their own right, but when all put together, its just too much. Then there is also the ridiculous bulk and power at the same time, coupled with the amazing typing and the sheer amount of 50/50s created by this thing and Aegislash is like a gift from the gods from Gamefreak. Its just too good. Also, the damn thing restricts so much... Mega Hera runs EQ for Aegislash. Mega pinsir too, when Close Combat does better against almost everything. Things like Starmie are terrible because of this thing just hard stopping them. It just is too much for the meta, and thats why if I get reqs then I will be voting for a ban.
  22. unfixable

    unfixable #freehulavuta
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    3,425
    Honestly, if I achieve REQs, I'm going to vote for ban. Aegislash is just insane, to put it bluntly. It has a stat spread of 60 /150 / 150 / 150 / 150 60 that it can change at will instantly. It can pull off a variety of sets, not to mention the fact that it has a fantastic typing. It's way too over centralizing, forcing you to run specific counters just to beat. Not to mention King's Shield creates mindgames in itself and the fact it lowers the opponent's Attack. It's incredibly unique and a force to reckon with, for these reasons I'm leaning more towards banning it.
    TheGhost983 and G Herbo like this.
  23. Jhonn Willian

    Jhonn Willian

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    In my view the whole OU already has adapted to the presence Aegislash. Since he assumed the position of Rotom-W usagem teams carry counters him that are not so specific as well, with Heatran, Charizard, Landorus and other on top of the most used do not see it as a major threat (not counting the Knock Off the Defiant and the Bisharp), not to mention that it ends up being predictable by only having 3 full sets and all make use of the King's Shield (and two of them from the Shadow Sneak). I want to vote and I have no intention to ban it, I'll be eyeing the topic to see if someone makes me change my mind (I apologize for the English Google Translation, I still have to adapt to it). :P
    Bled, AM and Mastoise like this.
  24. Cowtao

    Cowtao

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Messages:
    72
    Aegislash is very dangerous in it's stats and it's ability to use any type of set to best benefit it's team. Being able to switch from 150/150 defenses to 150/150 offense is very crucial and can sweep large portions of the meta. It's movepool is also beyond fantastic with being able to host a Special Attacker, Physical Attack, Sub-Toxic, King's Shield, Lure, Wallbreaker, The Crumblr, and other such sets make Aegislash even more dangerous and unpredictable to what checks or counters it fully. It forces many switches into figuring out what set it possibly is running and by the end of it when you figure out, it will be too late and usually Aegislash or his teammates will clean up. Even to supposed counters or checks such as Landorus-T take 60% from LO Shadow Ball to which Landorus-T could be revenge killed. If anything, this is basically a psuedo Genesect without as much speed but twice as much unpredictability.

    Ban
    G Herbo likes this.
  25. Tricking

    Tricking

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    259
    Aegi's ban can change an entire metagame, about 15 pokemons will be viable for OU but the real problem isn't its power (stats, various movesets) but king's shield. The drop which is the same as the burn drop is too broken for the physical attacker in the tier. I don't know if I'm going to save it for OU or ban it. If the suspect would be for king's shield, I wouldn't have any doubts.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2014
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)