np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition

Status
Not open for further replies.
hello just a friendly reminder that you should NOT base your opinion on whether or not Aegislash should be banned by coming up with mons that will be more/less viable once it's gone, but rather you want to base your opinion solely on whether or not it is actually a broken force in the metagame. Without Talonflame things like Hawlucha and Volcarona, among many, would become more viable but I see none of you vouching for a Talonflame ban. Also, keep in mind that yes, Aegislash forces 50/50s, but that's kinda something that is inherent to competitive Pokemon. Not saying whether or not it's broken imo, but just reminding some of you that it's not about the way it makes some mons less viable but how it performs as a standalone Pokemon.
Just a friendly reminder that we do not only ban broken things. We can ban things just for having a [sizable] negative impact on the metagame (yes, that's subjective).

Not going to cancer this thread with back and forth arguments, Robert Alfons. Just read my post towards the top of the first page and we'll leave it at that.
 
Last edited:

slayerx725232

"to sea, or not to sea" ~Melodramatic Sailor
Okay, where do we begin with this one? Aegislash is only viable because of its' nice ability, Stance Change. But due to the nature of that ability, it's pretty easy to predict Aegislash, and in that retrospect if you are a half decent battler with some form of strategy, you can set up in it's face if you predict correctly. Attempting to ban Aegislash would tear apart many teams, indeed, but it being used a lot does not automatically make a Pokemon overpowered or banworthy. And with the overuse of Aegislash, many people have found easy, simple ways to counter it, block it, and neuter any possible threat from it. Not to mention that out of the Shield Form that Aegislash loves so much, the Pokemon cannot take any form of Knock Off, which is a very used move in this meta thanks to the beautiful buff it got. Now i know what you're saying, "Aegislash is OP though, it needs to be banned." That's not entirely true, it's not OP unless you somehow manage to have no Pokemon on your team that have Sucker Punch, Knock Off, or any Ground type moves. And while you cannot scoff at the impressive Attack stat/Special Attack stat that Aegislash boasts when out of Shield Form, it's movepool typically isn't that broad. Without a 4 move attack set, it normally only uses Ghost type moves, and perhaps Iron Head for the everloved Fairy types. It's quite easy to play around once you pinpoint which Aegislash you are facing. All in all, I do believe Smogon just wants something new to ban now that the Deo's are gone, and they move to one of the more used Pokemon that does not deserve a ban, instead of the cancerous bird known as Talonflame. I strongly believe Aegislash should be still allowed at the discretion of the players.
 

Always!

WAGESLAVE
is a Tiering Contributor
Aegislash is also diverse af, so to what Halcyon. was saying it has all the tools it needs to beat its checks. Coming off with an effective 720 BST it is ridiculously strong. However, in our meta it is not as OP as everyone makes it out to be, as it is centralizing, so most of us have come prepared for it, yet at the same time it's unpredictability often makes it the first pokemon on the opponents team that we worry about. I'm leaning toward no ban right now, but the arguments that come will surely make me rethink my decision, as everyone's.
 
I'm actually very glad about this ban, aegislash centralizes the entire metagame making pokemon like mandibuzz move up and lucario move down. It's an extremely versatile pokemon that doesnt have a guaranteed counter with the likes of mandibuzz beat by sub-toxic or the odd head smash. Overall it's been shaping the metagame with it's every move and even when it first came out with only 1 set being used, it managed to sweep over and over until pokemon from the likes of nu had to come up because of it while old walls were forced to move down.

I certainly agree that it isn't completely broken but it's certainly unhealthy for the metagame and i'll agree with it being banned. Overall Aegislash shaped the entire metagame making pokemon move up or down, without it i'd think gen 6 would be alot like gen 5 with an evened out metagame where a pokemon cannot go ou because of king's shield.
 

Jacks0n

formerly grassycow
Ok so then explain to me how Aegislash is making the metagame so much worse when in reality, it's just a very good offensive pivot.
Offensive pivots don't exist, it has a huge variety of very vIable sets that screw over all the other sets checks/counters, so it is impossible to check before the sett is revealed, it limits team building way more than is healthy, all teams demand a counter at the very very least. It also stops at least fifteen Pokemon from being viable as well as having the best offensive stab, and amazing bulk and offences. Please explain how that is healthy .
 


150/150 offenses


Just think about it. This thing has 150/150 offenses – the same as Deoxys-N, which a few of you may recall was hilariously legal in OU for a few days. The difference here is that Deoxys had the coverage and speed to handle its checks, whereas Aegislash simply can just click Shadow Ball and demolish 90% of the meta. With just one move. If you don’t resist it and don’t have invested HP/SpD approaching Heatran’s, you will be taking over half from this move alone. This isn’t even considering the fact that Aegis’ coverage is nothing to scoff at. When looking at the (hilariously outdated) moveset statistics from January, Mandibuzz, Gliscor and Bisharp were the three most common Aegis switch-ins, who are all demolished by a viable move Aegis can run – Head Smash, which is sometimes seen on Life Orb sets KOs Mandibuzz after rocks with only paltry investment, and is severely dented with Flash Cannon. Gliscor is obviously slammed hard by Shadow Ball, and Bisharp has to be very careful switching in or it dies to a Sacred Sword. Of course, it’s unlikely that Aegis is running all of these different moves on one set, but it’s the fact that Aegis can tailor its set to beat certain counters with almost no drawbacks – very similar to Genesect – that is the problem.

On top of the fact that Aegis can nuke most of its checks with the correct move, it also is in possession of a very powerful priority move in Shadow Sneak, which, coming off even slightly invested base 150, can KO a lot of switchins to Aegis after they’ve taken a Shadow Ball.


252+ SpA Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%)

24 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 82-97 (25.3 - 30%)


Even with minimum rolls on both, you do at least 90%, which KOs after two turns of rocks, one LO tick, or just about any residual damage you can think of. This is an INSANE amount of damage to something with respectable 91/90/90 defenses, and shows that there is basically no sweeper in the game that can switch in on Aegis safely.



Due to a large number of factors, Aegislash can also tailor its item to suit the needs of your team effortlessly. Balanced or Offensive teams can employ Spooky Plate or Life Orb sets to smash through other offensive teams and do quite a number on more defensively oriented ones. Leftovers is also an extremely viable option, as Aegilash can create free turns for itself on virtually the entire tier by clicking King’s Shield, and forces mindgames with every sweeper that intends to set up on it. Weakness Policy, especially paired with Autotomize, turns Aegislash from the best tank in the history of the game into one that can absolute crush teams without a dedicated counter to its specific set – which makes late-game cleaning an absolute breeze. Balloon and Colbur Berry further illustrate the point that Aegislash can tailor its item to suit the needs of the team, with the former allowing you to come in for free against the likes of Garchomp, Toxic-stall Gliscor, Hippodown, etc and the latter luring in and disposing of unsuspecting Bisharp.



150/150 defenses and a protecting move that gives -2 to contact moves


252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 272-324 (83.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Yeah, that’s Adamant coming off of base 145, STAB. Essentially the most powerful unboosted Earthquake you’re likely to see in OU, and with it, you don’t even OHKO. The same can be said about non-mega Garchomp, Excadril, Gliscor (lol), Hippodown, etc etc (most of the above downright losing to Aegislash 1v1 with some combination of Shadow Ball + Sneak). Even a fully invested Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off isn’t a guaranteed kill – Aegislash is THAT bulky. So bulky in fact, that it shrugs off hit after hit from uninvested or not-super-effective foes, and responds by nuking another member of your team.

One thing that separates Aegislash from other Pokemon is the fact that not only can it not be trapped by conventional means – Shadow Tag/Magnet Pull/Arena Trap (not that any of the users in the tier can beat Aegislash 1v1 anyway), but revenge killing it in general is next to impossible. If you’re not running a Bisharp on your team or similar, the Aegislash user can simply switch out, or switch back into defense form, fucking over many of the tier’s premiere revenge killers – Banded Talonflame, Scarf users like Landorus-T, etc


EXTREMELY centralizing

Aegislash is ungodly hard on teambuilding. To build a decent team in a meta where Aegislash exists, you’re essentially forced to either run:

A.) One or more dedicated “counters” such as Mandibuzz, SpD Hippdown, AV Conkeldurr, Bisharp, Heatran, Umbreon – which, by the way, all lose to one or more of the sets listed above OR

B.) Several assorted checks to Aegis that either cannot switch in but can force it out (Garchomp, Keldeo, Greninja, basically every “frail” sweeper in the tier that can hit it super effectively)/cannot force it out but can take multiple hits from it (Vaporeon, Ferrothorn, non-Heat Wave Zapdos, etc)


And usually there’s a bit of both. Sweepers like Latios become a liability on most teams, as a free switch into Aegislash means another member of your team is about to take over half from a counter attack. Not even beginning to mention ‘Mons like Gengar and Alakazam who are OHKO’d from full by a Shadow Sneak (or Pursuit, which is a move Aegis can easily run on Lando/Keld/Pursuit trap and similar cores).


Creates 50/50 mindgame situations constantly – aka why Aegis cannot be set up on

Most things that would love to set up on Aegis are forced to either do so and take 65%+ from Spooky Plate Shadow Ball, or attack and are denied setup. Even leads like Heatran or Landorus-T, who were and are Stealth Rock using staples of most teams are locked in a coinflip against an Aegislash; either get your hazard and be crippled for the rest of the match (especially harmful to leads like the above, since they have no form of recovery) or attack the Aegis and hope you didn’t just waste a turn while it used King’s Shield. The bottom line is that having a “free turn” when an Aegislash is on the opposing field is borderline impossible.



Is an unhealthily easy way to scout choice items - aka Aegis cannot be forced out by choice users

Choice users are a very rare sight in the current meta – and for good reason: how easily they’re scouted by Aegislash. Previously top-tier Scarfers like Lando-T, Genesect (while it was still around), Garchomp, Keldeo, Terrakion are all stopped cold by Aegislash. You cannot overpredict while it is on the field, because it uses King’s Shield turn 1. Then, if you over-predicted and used a move like a Terrakion Stone Edge, you’ve automatically lost the exchange because you’re forced out or killed. And even if you chose the correct move in dispatching Aegislash, you are forced into yet another 50-50 situation: do they switch out into a Mon that can handle your attack? or do they stay in and deck another member of your team while you predict their switch and switch yourself? An all-around unhealthy situation completely in the Aegislash user’s favor simply because they’re using an Aegislash.


TL;DR – Aegislash is an unhealthy part of the metagame because it nukes every sweeper in the tier, can take enormously powerful hits from every unboosted ‘Mon, completely shits on stall and offense archetypes alike, forces 50/50 mindgames on all set-up mons, destroys the viability of choice users (especially scarfers) and creates huge amounts of free turns for your team simply by existing.


I wrote this a long time ago, when 252 HP spooky plate aegis (which I still believe is a pretty good set) was the norm; before the sub/toxic (that shit on mandibuzz and most teams without a heatran) and max speed life orb (that lure and kill bisharp/ttar/heatran and others) came to popularity. Most of it is still at least partially relevant today, and though meta shifts have rendered some points generally moot, I think most of the main points still have merit. I’d love to see Aegislash gone, and I think I’ll actually be going for reqs since the suspect ladder will be a meta without it.
 
Aegislash should not be banned, it has viable hard counters unlike the previously banned Deo-s,Deo-d and mega Lucario. Just because it centralises the whole meta does not make it ban worthy.
Please name me these "hard counters." Mandibuzz / Hippowdon / Chesnaught lose to SubToxic. Heatran/Bisharp lose to Fast Life Orb. Bisharp can't even safely switch in. Hippowdon loses to Fast Life orb and doesnt like being Toxic'd. Tyranitar can't switch in. Mega Scizor/Conk have to win a bunch of 50/50s to win against it. Chansey/Blissey can switch in and "counter" it but what do they do in return? Absolutely nothing.

Centralizing the Metagame is a bad. You shouldn't have the whole tier revolve around a single popular and still struggle to handle it properly. Aegislash alone dictates tons of Pokemon's viability, movesets, and effectiveness in a battle by its presence alone Pokemon to a greater extent that anything else currently does. Nothing else in the tier comes close to having this effect.

I would definitely vote ban.
 
You're kidding, right?
Aegislash is only good if used by a good player. You can EASILY outpredict the king's shields etc. I mean, King's Shielding can literally cost someone the game. Ok, it has diversity, yes, it is VERY VERY good, but no way in hell it is ubers material. 'It essentially has a 720 BST'. No, it doesn't, its BST is right in the stats. It is weak to common attacking types, Ground, Dark, Ghost, Fire. Hello? It's bulky, but easy to stop. If you can't handle an Aegislash you really aren't a very good player. Yeah, removing it would let some pokemon shine, but you could say that for anything.. And I see some people saying it'd allow Mega Heracross to get more usage... Mega Hera absolutely obliterates Aegislash! It does a little over 50% with a Shadow Ball, while your EQ is a solid 2HKO, and if you're running SD just SD on the KS and you're in business.. Aegislash is good, but it does NOT deserve a ban whatsoever.
 
I don't feel like banning Aegislash is necessary because it doesn't seem unhealthy like every other poke that has been banned so far. It's an extremely good poke, but the meta has formed to a point where it can be dealt with by common and good pokes without restricting teambuilding that much. Personally, I don't think it matters that things like Starmie and Hawlucha are bad. Stuff becoming unviable that would be viable without a certain metagame force (not referring to Aegislash specifically here) is normal for the development of the meta, and I don't think that's a principal we should discuss in the banning of Aegislash. Of course, Aegislash is still massively powerful and seeing what how the meta turns out without it will be interesting.

Just my two cents. I don't really have a strong or informed opinion but I'm still thinking Aegislash isn't ban worthy at the time.
 
I was on the fence about whether or not Aegislash was broken since the beginning of this gen. But lately I've realized how blatantly broken it really is. It shaped the metagame around it, made tons of Pokemon like Jirachi, Celebi etc. unviable. You can't make a team without something just for Aegislash. It's versatile, it has godly base stats when you consider its forme changing abilities. It requires to much mind games to take down (King's Shield) and is extremely unpredictable in what moves it will run. Please get this thing out of OU.
 

Causter

formerly GymLeaderCauster
The more I think about it, the more I agree with an Aegi ban. However, Psychic monos are going to thrive a bit more as Aegislash won't be there to stop Medicham/Focus Blasts from hitting the steelies.

What I'm seeing so far is basically the case that was made for the TFlame ban in OU Monotype. TFlame discouraged the use of Grass/Bug/Fighting monos, as well as affected the team-building to counter it specifically. The same can be said for Aegislash in OU as a whole; you've got to build around checking and countering it. Much easier said than done, especially when King's Shield is a thing. My Victini specifically runs Blue Flare for this situation; not risking an attack drop over this thing.

Logically, the best choice would be to ban the thing. Personally, though, I'd hate to see something with such power and versatility sent to the Uber tier.
 
Everything except every bulky Psychic type. Mega Gardevoir would be more of an issue, but we'll just deal with that if/when we get there.
Pretty sure Aegislash isn't the only steel type in the tier. Most other steel types wall it as well, so it wouldn't be played more. And using more Pokemon would be used is not a good argument when deciding on banning something...
 
TFL, I saw your argument a long time ago. While it is true aegi has overwhelming amount of "pseudostats", at the end of the day that's what it is: Fake stats. Remember that even by your own argument, 150 won't be used any turn due to only using special or physical. Secondly, this applies only if Aegi is slower. While this is common, that doesn't mean we can discount pokemon like Mega Mawile from the equation, who is far slower.

The HP stat holds it back. While coupled with some insane defense, it still is OHKOd by Bisharp's knock off 70% of the time (and guaranteed with any prior damage).

150 attack/special is devestating, but both can't be invested (or never are) as his HP stat would be worthless then. More importantly, Aegi possesses no good boosting set. SD+3 attacks? I have yet to face one or see one perform in such a way to justify it. There's no special boosting (which is an honest godsend for the meta). With the bulk, there is also no recover move. Limited to his natural bulk and generally limited to his natural attack, he's just an incredibly bulky pivot, slightly resembling a more specially bulky Landorus-T.

Yes, the sets are generally an issue. However, this is comparable to 5th gen Kyub. A set to beat everything but not everything beaten by a set. Only Amoongus really can hold claim to true Aegi countering. However, Chesnaught, Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Gyarados-m (esp when mega evolving) all can hold claim to countering MANY sets. As in, most of them very rarely lose to it. Kyub did stall worse last gen, having exactly one stall mon that could beat it with any consistency (jirachi). Aegi's bulk allows him to generally take one SE move (from something not named Bisharp or roughly comparable to...) but he has no way to prepare for the second or guarantee the kill. For attackers like Landorus, Garchomp or any of the common EQ users, he's pretty easy to check down. Yes, you're going to have an issue switching in if he spams shadow ball, but then again try switching into a Landorus... or any powerful attacker. To be honest, hearing the arguments for the past month of "Oh, Chesnaught? Flash Cannon Aegi! Mandi? Head Smash Aegi! All Beaten" is garbage because A. Sets are uncommon and B. Aegi doesn't have a bag of holding for move slots.

King's Shield is interesting. As aegi's single most important move to most sets, it is hard to take a loss -2 and the momentum swing is fairly ridiculous. However, what's coming in on Aegi that is so worried about KS? Most Aegi checks SPECIFICALLY run non contact moves. Aka EQ. Aka Special moves like fire blast. Aka Sucker Punch. The Metagame has adapted enough that this is a general non-factor.

Aegi is obviously strong. Strong enough to force other mons to be unviable. HOWEVER, this is no different from any other really fantastic mon. Hmm, I can't FATHOM why infernape, Volcarona and Lucario are ALL UU now after one update... Couldn't possibly be Talonflame's doing... Probably Aegislash, right? You know what Starmie is? Outclassed. Outclassed as a spinner by Excadrill. Outclassed as a fast water type by Greninja. Explain to me why, even with Aegi gone, I'd use Starmie? Same for Medicham-mega when I can use Mega Mawile for power or a terrakion for better speed and fight coverage. Alakazam-mega is probably the only one I can see truly being inhibited by Aegislash on his own and I can also see talonflame restricting Alakazam badly.

This is almost humorous anymore. Sadly, we've got so many people who won't give it the time of day and the mentality of ban all suspected is already set in stone. However, I really don't see "Aegi inhibiting the metagame".
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Okay, here are my thoughts on Aegislash :

Aegislash is overcentralising. This is not an opinion, this a fact. The metagame basically revolves around it. Pokemon are far less viable than they should be just because of its presence in the metagame. Pokemon like Pinsir, Terrakion, Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham have to run a coverage move that would otherwise be subpar just in case they bump into it. Starmie dropped an entire tier solely because it exists. Aegislash literally is the metagame at the moment, and has a unprecedented influence on what is and isn't standard in OU.

That being said, I'm not convinced centralization alone is really grounds for a ban. Pokemon can be centralizing but also healthy for the metagame (which is what I believe Thundurus to be). But the thing with Aegislash isn't that it's centralising because it provides invaluable utility like Thundurus does, it's centralising because it's just amazingly good at everything. People don't use it because they have to, but because they'd be fools not to : there's not a thing it isn't excellent at. It's an amazing pivot, a fantastic nuke, a stellar wall, an exceptional tank, a great scout, a formidable staller. The only thing it doesn't do that well is sweep, but you know what? Even though we all love to bash the infamous SD+KS set, it's not actually terrible per se, at least not by the usual standards of OU. Rather, it's slightly subpar compared to its other sets. This is how good Aegislash is : even one of its worst sets can put in some serious work.

I find Aegislash unhealthy for the metagame mainly because there is little reason not to use it. It fits on every single playstyle. Even ones that deviate from the norm like rain and sand. Heck, I bet you can make a smashpass team with Aegislash and make it work. It's basically a foolproof Pokemon you slap on any team and pretty much guarantee that you'll increase your chances of winning. It's just too easy to fit on a team and too easy to use. Obviously, it's natural that some Pokemon are more viable than others, but I don't think there should be a single Pokemon that it good no matter what it does, and that's what Aegi is.

The main argument I've heard for Aegislash staying is that it keeps a lot of threats in check. Which is somewhat true, but I honestly don't think Mega-Medicham and Mega-Gardevoir will go from B+ straight to S once Aegi leaves, although I will admit that its impact on the metagame may well be that strong. If we ban Aegislash, the metagame will change. A lot. And honetsly, from what I an gather, whether or not you want Aegislash gone boils down to whether you like the current metagame, or whether you find it stale and boring. Personally, I'm not a fan of it right now. MY biggest issue is tat HO is too easy compared to other playstyles, and I honestly have no idea whether or not banning Aegi will change this (as I said, it fits on every playstle, so banning it probably won't favor any one over another), but at least the metagame will be different, and that's really all I want.

Ban.
 
Last edited:
The first suspect test that I disagree with, but it was expected I guess...

While personally I do not believe Aegislash is deserving of a ban, the question that's more on my mind is this: why is this suspect test happening so very soon? The new OU now lacks Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, AND Baton Pass chains. This happened within 24 hours of my posting, but we're starting the next test right on its tail. That seems extremely soon afterwards, with no time between for and kind of settling. I'm firmly of the opinion that, while I'm sure this suspect test will happen despite my opinion, I think it is much too soon after banning three things from the metagame. At least give it a week or two to see what happens with the new metagame.

I've said my piece. Probably will have no effect, but I've said it.

EDIT: Also, agreeing with Ajwf ; just cause it's suspected does not mean it's banned, people.
 
You're kidding, right?
Aegislash is only good if used by a good player. You can EASILY outpredict the king's shields etc. I mean, King's Shielding can literally cost someone the game. Ok, it has diversity, yes, it is VERY VERY good, but no way in hell it is ubers material. 'It essentially has a 720 BST'. No, it doesn't, its BST is right in the stats. It is weak to common attacking types, Ground, Dark, Ghost, Fire. Hello? It's bulky, but easy to stop. If you can't handle an Aegislash you really aren't a very good player. Yeah, removing it would let some pokemon shine, but you could say that for anything.. And I see some people saying it'd allow Mega Heracross to get more usage... Mega Hera absolutely obliterates Aegislash! It does a little over 50% with a Shadow Ball, while your EQ is a solid 2HKO, and if you're running SD just SD on the KS and you're in business.. Aegislash is good, but it does NOT deserve a ban whatsoever.
Um...if every set ran king's shield it defs woudnt be suspected, it's the fact it has so many options of what it should or could do that makes it not so predictable. Also about your mega hera comment i must disagree. With a weakness policy and max hp aegislash takes around 70% or so from adamant 252 mega hera's earthquake and can ohko after wp is activated. Also for your argument on the types, Aegislash has many sets that can take care of common threats- fast life orb, sub-toxic, or weakness policy set can all beat common checks like mandibuzz, bisharp, and hippowdon. Overall Aegislash defs deserves the ban as it centralizes the entire metagame and even with everything people have done to prepare for it, aegislash can dominate. So many pokes have moved up or down to deal with Aegislash yet it's still top usage. The fact that it was s-class since it first was released shows theres no true counter and it's dominating ou.
 
Pretty sure Aegislash isn't the only steel type in the tier. Most other steel types wall it as well, so it wouldn't be played more. And using more Pokemon would be used is not a good argument when deciding on banning something...
Other steeltypes get fucked over by fighting coverage. Aegi is basicly the only halfway decent switch in for Mega Garde, Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross and all 3 of them can beat him if they want to so its not like he completely shuts them down. And again, you dont need hardcounters for something that is easily checked by half of the meta.
 
Heatran gets fucked by LO SD 3 attacks, Mendibuzz gets shat on by Sub Toxic. There are no counters to Aegislash without first learning its set, which is not an easy thing to do without crippling/sacking one of your Pokemon. Aegislash is by far the most restrictive presence in the meta (other than Azumarill :toast:), and as TFL already said, it has a pseudo 720 BST, which is obviously absurd for OU standards. Not to mention all the damn 50/50s it creates with King's Shield (shoutout to ShootingStarmie :] ily fren).

Will right a full post on this later.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
 
I'm a great fan of Aegislash and I use it alot actually. One of my favorite Gen6 Pokemon even outside of competitive play.

As far as I saw and played, Aegislash is still not good enough to be considered as broken.
The mixed set, which is the most used set atm, is a good wallbreaker but it still fails to harm stall teams too much. Shadow Ball is resistet by many common bulky Pokemon such as Mandibuzz and Chansey, even Mega-Venusaur can take that. The main Problem with this set is: When Shadow Ball does not enough damage it is most of the time forced out. The only time when it can stay in is when his other coverage move can actually deal great damage (example: Tyranitar). It is a wallbreaker which can STILL be walled by many special walls despite its amazing attack stat.

The sub-Toxic set is really interesting but I hope I don't need to say that this is far from broken. Gliscor can SubToxic too and does it even better.

The SetUp-Set with SwordsDance is pretty strong but still walled by many physical walls (Mandibuzz hardcounters this set too). I hope we don't need to discuss that further.

Now first one off the big questions: Does it make Aegislash "unpredictable" because it can run multiple sets?
Still no. Who the hell is really surprised of Aegishlash's sets? Stall team? SubToxic. Not stall? Most of the time Mixed. SwordsDance? Ok, not really common but your physical wall should be able to take +2 Iron Heads or it just fails at walling.
Aegislash is TOTALLY PREDICTABLE. It has great offense and defense, but still a poor movepool. It has only a few viable moves it can choose to be effective. There are some niche-moves like Head Smash or Pursuit which are very rare.

It's sets are good, but not devastating. It is very predictable and should not really surprise anyone. Last point to look at is Kings Shield.

Kings Shield puts most player in the famous 50/50 coinflip: Attack or status move? Yes, I know Bisharp doesn't give much of a f*ck about Kings Shield but if Bisharp really would be the only Pokemon that can take on Aegislash it would be banned long ago...
But outside of many other coinflip this one also pressures the Aegislash-user. Imagine a battle against Conkeldurr. Bulk Up or Knock Off? Kings Shield or attack? Let Conkeldurr set up and become a problem for the team or try to damage it? The advantage of Kings Shield is not always on the users side. The fact that it can be burned and paralyzed even behind this "Protect" is a big downside too.

Is Aegislash good? Definitely. Is it broken? No.
It is something like a bulky sweeper who even looses its bulk while attacking and can give his opponent a free turn to set-up while trying to become bulky again. It has a great offensive typing but a poor movepool which lets him still be very predictable. A good Pokemon which can be handled with a check (that doesn't have to be Bisharp).
 
Aegi is not even close to broken. He can't hit anything twice in a row without exposing his defenses. That makes him easy to play around.

Also, those base 150 offenses are really misleading. His moves all have low base power, and he can't really run choice items because then he can't shield. Here's a comparison:

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 178-211 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 183-216 (61.4 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As a final point, his ability adds mind games and prediction wars, which are fun. We need more of that. Aegi should stay.
 
Okay, here are my thoughts on Aegislash :

Aegi is overcentralising. This is not an opinion, this a fact. The metagame basically revolves around it. Pokemon are far less viable than they should be just because it exists. Pokemon like Pinsir, Terrakion, Mega-Heracross, Mega-Medicham have to run a coverage move that would otherwise be subpar just in case they bump into it. Starmie dropped an entire tier solely because it exists. Aegisalsh literally is the metagame at the moment.

That being said, I'm not convinced overcentralization alone is really grounds for a ban. Pokemon can be overcentralizing but also healthy for the metagame (which is what I believe Thundurus to be). But the thing with Aegislash isn't that it's overcentralising because it provides invaluable utility like Thundurus does, it's overcentralising because it's just amazingly good at everything. People don't use it because they have to, but because they'd be fools not to : there's not a thing it isn't excellent at. It's an amazing pivot, a fantastic nuke, a stellar wall, an exceptional tank, a great scout, a formidable staller. The only thing it doesn't do that well is sweep, but you know what? Even though we all love to bash the infamous SD+KS set, it's not actually terrible per se, at least not by the usual standards of OU. Rather, it's slightly subpar compared to its other sets. This is how good Aegislash is : even one of its wort sets can put in some serious work.

I find Aegislash unhealthy for the metagame mainly because there is little reason not to use it. It fits on every single playstyle. Even ones that deviate from the norm like rain and sand. Heck, I bet you can make a smashpass team with Aegislash and make it work. It's basically a foolproof Pokemon you slap on any team and basically guarantee that you'll increase your chances of winning. I find Aegislash unhealthy because it's too easy to fit on a team and too easy to use. It's natural that some Pokemon are more viable than others, but I'm not sure there should be a single Pokemon that it good no matter what it does, and that's what Aegi is.

The main argument I've heard for Aegislash staying is that it keeps a lot of threats in check. Which is somewhat true, but I honestly don't think Mega-Medicham and Mega-Gardevoir will go from B+ straight to S once Aegi leaves, although I will admit that its impact on the metagame may well be that strong. If we ban Aegislash, the metagame will change. A lot. And honetsly, from what I an gather, whether or not you want Aegislash gone boils down to whether you like the current metagame, or whether you find it stale and boring. Personally, I'm not a fan of it right now. MY biggest issue is tat HO is too easy compared to other playstyles, and I honestly have no idea whether or not banning Aegi will change this (as I said, it fits on every playstle, so banning it probably won't favor any one over another), but at least the metagame will be different, and that's really all I want.
Ban.
To be completly honest i do believe megacham will move to s rank just becuase of its amazing coverage past aegislash and amazing power. The only checks to megacham aree bulky psychic types (Ie Slowbro [Which barring thunder punch i would say is a counter] or a mega gard.Gard on the other hand still has some good checks (ie blisssey/chansey, heatran baring hp ground, etc etc) which is y i think it wikll only move up to A rank
 
I never felt that Aegislash was as broken as it appears to be to some. However I do agree that Aegislash is indeed centralizing the meta. Is this worth a ban though? I believe that banning a pokemon for the sake of diversifying the meta is a rather inappropriate thing to do. That's an incredibly difficult question to answer. At the same time one does not know how to handle Aegislash without first knowing which set he is using. This was the case with the monstrous mega-lucario (special attack set or physical) however this time it is at a far less extreme extent. It's tricky to decide whether he should be banned or not. I believe that banning Aegislash would create a more dynamic meta. I also believe that banning Aegislash is justifiable because one can only handle him after their team has taken a hit by Aegislash. I also believe that Aegislash can be dealt with. However is the extent of which he can be dealt with large enough to compensate for his negative effect on the meta and him being a top threat? That I think is ultimately the question. As of right now I am leaning towards a ban.
 
Um...if every set ran king's shield it defs woudnt be suspected, it's the fact it has so many options of what it should or could do that makes it not so predictable. Also about your mega hera comment i must disagree. With a weakness policy and max hp aegislash takes around 70% or so from adamant 252 mega hera's earthquake and can ohko after wp is activated. Also for your argument on the types, Aegislash has many sets that can take care of common threats- fast life orb, sub-toxic, or weakness policy set can all beat common checks like mandibuzz, bisharp, and hippowdon. Overall Aegislash defs deserves the ban as it centralizes the entire metagame and even with everything people have done to prepare for it, aegislash can dominate. So many pokes have moved up or down to deal with Aegislash yet it's still top usage. The fact that it was s-class since it first was released shows theres no true counter and it's dominating ou.
Everyone with a f*cking brain runs KS on Aegislash, its the only way to revert to shield forme..
 
Yes, the sets are generally an issue. However, this is comparable to 5th gen Kyub. A set to beat everything but not everything beaten by a set. Only Amoongus really can hold claim to true Aegi countering. However, Chesnaught, Mandibuzz, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Gyarados-m (esp when mega evolving) all can hold claim to countering MANY sets. As in, most of them very rarely lose to it. Kyub did stall worse last gen, having exactly one stall mon that could beat it with any consistency (jirachi). Aegi's bulk allows him to generally take one SE move (from something not named Bisharp or roughly comparable to...) but he has no way to prepare for the second or guarantee the kill. For attackers like Landorus, Garchomp or any of the common EQ users, he's pretty easy to check down. Yes, you're going to have an issue switching in if he spams shadow ball, but then again try switching into a Landorus... or any powerful attacker. To be honest, hearing the arguments for the past month of "Oh, Chesnaught? Flash Cannon Aegi! Mandi? Head Smash Aegi! All Beaten" is garbage because A. Sets are uncommon and B. Aegi doesn't have a bag of holding for move slots.

I'm only going to address this point here. You basically allude to saying that "It has 4 move slot syndrome. It can't run all these things at the same time and beat everything." To which I'm going to quote what both BKC and reyscarface said in the last suspect thread

Sure they don't run all these options in one set, but as a wise man with a scarred face once said: four moveslot syndrome doesn't make you less effective, it means you're more unpredictable and therefore more threatening. Plus it's not even like it needs to use all its moves, it can pick based on what its team needs.
heres my man bkc preaching some strong words that you should all get inside your skull. im tired of having to post this every fucking suspect test regarding a pokemon that has several options to run. YOURE CALLING AN EXPERT DRUMMER THAT CAN PLAY A SHITTON OF DIFFERENT DRUMMING STYLES BAD BECAUSE HE CANT PLAY THEM ALL AT THE SAME TIME. the fucker can pick whatever the fuck it wants to pick according to whatever his manager says will be best and then blow the fucking crowds mind because they werent expecting that shit and then everyone jizzes over how good it was. drummer = deoxys, manager = you for the dense. you get to pick whatever the fuck your deoxys uses. your team has bisharp covered but cant deal with sweepers? slap twave on it. your team fucking despises aegislash but doesnt care about random dragons flying? slap knock off on it. thats the beauty of it and it will make you jizz once you understand, because instead of running whatever set the smogon dex asks you to use you will make your own according to your teams needs and you will realize its oh so fuckin sexy. phew.

The point there is that it doens't need to run all these things at once. It adjust its moveset according the team's needs, the same exact thing Mega Gengar did when it was OU and the same exact way its doing now in Ubers. Having more options doesnt make Aegislash bad, it makes it better. It gives the tools to beat just about everything it wants to and needs to making more unpredictable and more effective.

So from this point on, can we completely abolish the "4mss" argument when trying to say something isn't broken? It has never truly been good grounds to saying something isn't broken and it never will be. Thanks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top