Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk III

[Avnomke]

Flamestrike, I like that formula, but imo it should be the sum of the number of pokemon on the field at the beginning of each round. This leads to brawls paying less (pokemon tend to die out faster) and melees not getting completely screwed over. Also imo long matches should reward more, simply because they require more dedication than shorter ones.

As for flavor, if we required it ASB would probably grind to a halt, or at least battles would take much longer, simply because most battles don't have it and there are still decent-sized queues quite often. Requiring flavor would force me, akela, Frosty, and probably quite a few other people (such as Birkal and Mulan) who don't ref as much to ref less often, due to spending much more time per round. I'm not opposed to flavor, but I do know that it slows down reffing and I don't think that's a good thing.

 

[Flamestrike]

I don't want to start getting into complicated formulas where it depends on how many Pokemon are on the field at any given time; that makes a lot of extra work for relatively little gain. But yes, something would have to be done for Melees. If we go by the 2/4/6/etc formula I proposed, then it actually lines up conveniently with the number of Pokemon on the field in the average round, so we could just make the formula Number of Pokemon on field at start of battle * Number of rounds, which would also solve the melee problem.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Big Root Draining Kiss: There were some IRC chatter over this, so I suppose I shall put it up too.

Just gonna point out that I brought up big root in the defensive items thread since big root is technically a defensive item.

 

[Mulan15262]

Mulan, that's kind of the point; as things currently stand shorter matches are rewarded more. My formula gives similar amounts as the normal formula for shorter matches, or even less (singles flashie is 2-4 UC unless it goes past two rounds somehow, 8v8 Brawl is likely 32 UC (16 per round, two rounds), but gives a lot more for longer matches (the 5v5 Singles that deadfox mentioned that netted him a mere 19 UC would get him 32 UC with my formula). I think these numbers are relatively fair, maybe people will complain that brawls are worth less than they should be but otherwise I think everything works out okay. I'd like to have some more thoughts on this formula (or a similar formula; I know Gerard was talking about an exponential one that would actually reward longer matches more, but I think that's unnecessary; I want long matches to be rewarded equally to short matches, not more so).

All the *2 does is give every match more UC, it would in no way effect which matches are better for quick UC.

Also, here is a google spreadsheet that shows the amount of UC given for each battle type (# of pokemon per side and format) under each proposal, and the current. If the payout is not solely based off of that information, it takes the median pay. I'll try to keep it up to date as more battles end and more proposals are added.

Looking at it, my proposal more closely matches the current UC pay, but it falls behind in larger matches. Flamestrike's proposal is farther away, but almost always more than the current UC pay. Both actually reward 6v6 Brawls more than 8v8s or 9v9s.



About flavor, I think it should only be mandatory if the battlers want it. I would be more than willing to have no flavor if it means faster reffings, and I'd guess that a lot of people agree with me. RPs should be up to the person running the RP, and same with the Gym League and Tournaments.

 

[Dogfish44]

Time to move a contestable move here.

Grudge
The user prepares a curse. If they are KOed during that round Grudge is in effect, the curse is enacted. All Moves that fit the same category (e.g. Damaging Dark Moves, Status Moves if KO'd by a burn or toxic damage, etc.) that was used to KO the user of Grudge will not be usable for the rest of the match, even if the Grudge-afflicted Pokemon is switched out.

Now this move is oft forgotten, but in it's current state it's INCREDIBLY vague. Does Grudge influence allies and enemies for the entire battle, like a permanent field effect? Or does it lock onto just one side of the field, or just one enemy? Can it stack?

More importantly, how does it fit "category"? If I KO with Dig, does this lock out all damaging evasive moves, all damaging ground moves, both? And what defines a status move? Does Leech Seed count as status? What about weather damage?

I don't bring a proposal atm, I'm just looking for discussion of this deceptively good move, and ideas on how to make it less vague.

 

[Mulan15262]

How about it being damaging [type] moves, the type being whatever the move or combo's type was, unless it was a status move, in which case it is [type] status moves?

Also, what happens if you get KOed by Struggle, or a status inflicted by a damaging, not status, move? And what if you KO yourself through energy loss or recoil?

 

[Doubt]

How about it being damaging [type] moves, the type being whatever the move or combo's type was, unless it was a status move, in which case it is [type] status moves?

Also, what happens if you get KOed by Struggle, or a status inflicted by a damaging, not status, move? And what if you KO yourself through energy loss or recoil?

I think I agree with what's stated here. On clarification, I'd say if you were KO'd by a status inflicted by a damaging attack, I think it would act the same as if you were KO'd by the attack itself. If you faint due to EN loss they can't chill nothing happens, same thing with Struggle. It's really easy to forget you can Struggle at any time, and it's not like the move has no drawbacks. Plus, it'd be hard to set up, so I think it's at least slightly justified to be able to get out of Grudge like that.

 

[Gerard]

No, permanent Taunt that can NEVER be removed it's too strong of an effect to be given this easily. If you want to see an easy way to achieve this. Gallade KOes a pokemon, but was heavily damaged in return. I use Endure, the pokemon subbed for this with toxic, but I had 5 Hp, so I'm not KOed immediately, he attacks me next turn and leaves me with 1 Hp, I use Grudge, I am KOed by Poison Damage. I have just permanently sealed all status moves on my opponent for minimal loss and my opponent is now unable to use status moves of any kind against my next pokemon. You can see how this is insane.

Actually I'm against having status moves activate Grudge because it both, goes against in-game where if you KO with a status move this doesn't activate, and because it gives you a way to move around grudge which otherwise it's a pretty strong, if underappreciated, move. My proposal would be that if Grudge it's used and the pokemon is KOed then the move and every other move that fits all the Sub Classes for that move (Ex. Extreme Speed striking the final blow blocks all Normal Type Damaging Moves & all Damaging Priority Moves).

 

[Mulan15262]

No, permanent Taunt that can NEVER be removed it's too strong of an effect to be given this easily. If you want to see an easy way to achieve this. Gallade KOes a pokemon, but was heavily damaged in return. I use Endure, the pokemon subbed for this with toxic, but I had 5 Hp, so I'm not KOed immediately, he attacks me next turn and leaves me with 1 Hp, I use Grudge, I am KOed by Poison Damage. I have just permanently sealed all status moves on my opponent for minimal loss and my opponent is now unable to use status moves of any kind against my next pokemon. You can see how this is insane.

This is why I said it should only be [type] status moves, so locking Taunt out of the game requires being KOed by a dark-type status move (Dark Void-inflicted sleep while you have the ability Bad Dreams or confusion caused by Flatter, unless we count a self-KO through Memento). In the scenario you named, assuming that Gallade used Toxic to KO you, that would lock out Acid Armor, Coil, Poison Gas, Poison Powder, Toxic, and Toxic Spikes.

Besides, only 13 pokemon can learn Grudge, so it isn't anything common. As of ASB Census 7, these are all the pokemon that learn Grudge and 5 or more are found in ASB: Gallade, Gardevoir, Banette, Dusknoir, Gengar, Mismagius, and Ninetales. I've reffed battles involving some of them, played against some of them, and yet I've never seen Grudge used.

 

[Frosty]

I thought "Status moves" meant "Non-Damaging moves that inflict major status (burn and poison)", not "Non-Damaging moves". You can probably also include Confusion inducing moves and make it a quasi-safeguard if you feel like. But that is it IMO.

That being said I (kinda) agree with Gerard. Just block all the moves from the sub classes involved. Although I feel Status Moves (Major Status inflicting moves) should be a class for the purposes of Grudge. But only those.

Also, I saw Grudge being used only once with somewhat nice results. But nothing too damaging. I feel that this fix is enough.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Here is a better idea: Talk about the Grudge the move in relation to the issue brought up, not how many Pokémon get Grudge / how many times Grudge is used. Nobody cares about usage and it has never been a good argument to use to justify something anywhere.

If I see a bunch of consecutive posts on a similar scale to the Grudge usage / distribution again... Well let me just say that I will not be pleased.

That is all.

 

[ZhengTann]

Regarding Grudge: How about a clarifying solution? Grudge blocks every move of the same Type with the KO-ing attack. Flamethrower KO? No more Fire-type attacks? Toxic / Future Sight damage? Poison / Psychic respectively. Struggle? Well, boo - Grudge can't block Struggle because it's typeless. This gives a simpler mechanic - easily understandable and implementable, plus it's not that hard to work around. Grudge would then have some niche use when your team shares a few significant common weaknesses (thing that pops into my mind is Zar's own gym team, maybe). Will post a Discussion thread if people wish to resolve the move further.

 

[Flamestrike]

This is a relatively small thing, but there's absolutely no mention in the handbook of what happens with rewards if a player forfeits. The general consensus among people I've talked to is that it's equivalent to DQing yourself; you get nothing, and then if the match went two or more rounds your opponent gets full rewards and the ref gets whatever he would get based on the formula in the handbook, otherwise they also get nothing. However, I'd like for it to be clarified; I know forfeiting is usually frowned upon but it does still happen and having a source to reference for when it does would be nice.

 

[Frosty]

TBH I don't think it should be the same as DQ. Or else a player would be forced to play another round of a match simply because if not neither him nor the other players/ref will get counters. I had this happen to me at least twice (that I can remember) and have seen it happening elsewhere. It is an (unneccessary) annoyance.

I feel that normal "Battle is cancelled if before 2 rounds" shouldn't apply to Forfeiting as it is not the opponent's or the ref's fault that the battle ended up being decided real soon. No reason to "punish" anyone other than the one forfeiting (tbh the forfeiting player also doesn't deserve punishment, but I supposed that would open a can of worms as far as abuse goes so...)

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah the big issue here is abuse. I'd be okay with giving regular rewards minus the forfeiter, except then you get into situations where a group of people can just sit at night and keep looping forfeits to grind counters, and it would be completely legal by the book. Of course in theory this would be shut down pretty quick since it's a blatant abuse, so it might be okay. However we decide to do it, whether we have it match DQ rules or make separate forfeit rules, it should really be clarified in the handbook.

 

[Elevator Music]

The Sleep counter doesn't reset upon switching this gen, so can we remove that mechanic :)

 

[Dogfish44]

The Sleep counter doesn't reset upon switching this gen, so can we remove that mechanic :)

This has been done. Sleep --> Whirlwind is now less silly.

RE Forfeit Rules:

Currently standard is to treat it as self-inflicted DQ. Perhaps an alternative system where the player who forfeits only gets counters for the Pokemon which have been KOed on their team (So a 6v6 where 1 player forfeits when they're seriously behind would give the forfeiter some rewards, but not all) is probably not the most abusable, but it still has issues. I know that abuse would be cracked down upon, but I really am not overly fond of leaving such problems open in the first case ¬¬

 

[Flamestrike]

I have no idea what's going on with Mawilite and Medichamite right now. As far as I can tell, here's the story:
-Mega Mawile currently gets +3 Attack Ranks with Huge Power, being fully evolved. However, in the past it didn't for some silly reason (single stage Pokemon only got +1 or +2 Ranks or something) so the Mawilite was given a buff to give +2 Attack Ranks. Then someone rightly realized that this was a dumb system and Mega Mawile got its full +3 Attack Ranks, but now ALSO still has the +2 from Mawilite, giving it Rank 9 (!) Attack with a neutral nature. Last I checked the only Mega Stones that give extra buffs are those that belong to Megas who don't get new abilities, so it doesn't really make sense for Mawilite to give any buff at all, let alone such a ridiculous one.
-Similarly, Mega Medicham currently gets +3 Attack Ranks with Pure Power, and gets a +1 Attack Rank buff from Medichamite. I think in Medicham's case, the buff is simply because, unlike Mega Mawile, it doesn't get a new ability upon Mega Evolving, and thus got an ability buff like all the other Megas who don't get a new ability. So this one's probably fine, I just wanted to bring it up because it was part of the discussion.

Feels to me like Mawile shouldn't be getting any Huge Power buffs at all while Medicham keeps its +1, and that seems to be the consensus on IRC at the moment, but apparently some people might want Mawile to have the same Attack as Medicham? Even though with Sheer Force it hits harder anyway. Would like some input (or a fiat change) on this.

 

[Mulan15262]

Just discovered, I comment about something on the NDA and it shows up here very quickly, and I've done it multiple times. Now I can get issues posted here without truly thinking or explaining much.

Anyways, my thoughts on this are that both Mawile and Medicham should get a +1 boost to attack, or no boost at all. The +2 brings (or would bring, in Medicham's case) it to rank 9 attack with a neutral nature, which is higher than what most offensive megas have.

The offensive megas that do not have a powerful damage-boosting ability, or other very useful ability (Kagnaskhan, Lucario, Absol, etc. have such an ability) have either 7 (i.e. Charizard Y, Gengar, Gyarados) or 8 (i.e. Alakazam, Mewtwo X, Heracross) in their higher offensive stat. Mewtwo Y is the only one above rank 8 I noticed, with rank 9 special attack, and it is a legendary pokemon before it mega-evolves.

 

[AOPSUser]

Actually, currently three Mega Stones give additional effects to mons that get a new ability--Mawilite, Manectite, and Houndoomite. I think the reasoning behind the latter two was that those mons don't get much stat increases from Mega Evolution and aren't that impressive to begin with (though you can sorta say those are a bit overkill I guess). The Mawilite boost was (I'm pretty sure) originally intended to put Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham at the same attack rank, but that was back when Huge Power still gave Mawile +2 (iirc).

tbh I think it would make more sense to put Medichamite and Mawilite both at +2 or make the effect change Pure/Huge Power into doubling the attack rank. Mewtwo Y has Base 194 Special Attack, yeah, but if you consider the in-game effect of Pure/Huge Power Mega Mawile essentially has Base 259 Attack (And MegaCham has 254). It's not like either one is ridiculous currently anyways (heck you could even say Mega Medicham is a bit underwhelming).

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm not sure in what universe 100/7/5/2/3/50 for Mega Mawile is considered unimpressive. Throw Sheer Force and a Quiet Nature in and you're rivaling Mega Charizard Y in sheer offensive output (and you get an infinitely better typing to boot). Looking at Mega Houndoom and Mega Manetric I can see why those two needed a boost, and if nothing else Mega Medicham should get a boost since it doesn't get an extra ability (and yeah you could argue that it deserves one stats-wise too), but I really don't see the need for Mega Mawile to get a boost.

 

[AOPSUser]

Mega Mawile actually has 90 HP, so it's not exactly brilliant defensively. I think the main reason for Mawile to get the boost, though, is that it's supposed to be on par with Mega Medicham offensively given their stats. (And even with Sheer Force Mawile is still doing less damage than Cham's HJK) Mawile's defensive typing is fantastic though, which is probably the main reason it's considered better than Medicham (that and it can actually use its special movepool, though it mostly prefers its physical one).

The reason I feel like Mawile should get the boost is so it can differentiate itself from mons like Rampardos and Mega Tyranitar offensively, because it's supposed to be this all-powerful juggernaught that beats even MMX, Deo-A, and Kyurem-B in its Attack stat, and Rank 7 Attack just doesn't do it enough justice.

 

[Geodude6]

A quote I feel might help explain things:

Deck can you explain why a seemingly random array of Mega Stones give added effects while others do not?

Most of them are on Mega Mons that replicate an already existing ability on the base form, thus providing an enhancement on the ability they already have.

The ones that don't, being specifically Houndoom, Manectric, and Mawile, do not actually get much of a boost Rank-wise from their Mega Stone, and are actually in what would otherwise be "Normal" mon territory, matching the starters. As a result they got buffed to make their evolutions sufficiently more threatening than their stats would suggest. As it stands, the higher one's BRT is slightly stronger than most Base 600 mons that are available for all players (e.g. 24-26 vs. 22-23), and using an item. The best comparison is therefore something like an opponent with Rare Candy or Everstone.

 

[Flamestrike]

I still don't really get that argument because Mega Mawile is at worst only very slightly below the other Megas in terms of stats, but if people really feel like it needs a buff then I guess it could keep the +1? Idk I just want to get some clarity and a resolution on this.

 

[Mulan15262]

Also, I just want to say that here Gerard makes a good point about why Mawile needs the boost. To pretty much reiterate, Mega-Mawile has 90/7/5/2/3/50 stats (it had rank 6 attack when the post was made, but it was changed since) without the boost, which is mostly outclassed by Mega-Scizor's 100/6/5/3/4/65 or Mega-Garchomp's 110/7/4/5/3/92 and completely outclassed by Mega-Tyranitar's 110/7/6/3/5/71. So, if Mega-Mawile does not get the boost, there would be little reason to use it over other megas.