Tiering thoughts until ORAS

[ryan]

What we should do is just leave Baton Pass the fuck alone. We already made it a completely terrible strategy barring a very specific six Pokemon that are incredibly easy to play around with an average team. Full Baton Pass was literally ebola. I agree that doing something about it was overall a good decision. Then people innovated ways to make three Pokemon Baton Pass teams work, and instead of making minor adjustments to teams in order to beat it, everyone bitched. Same shit is happening here.

Baton Pass is not broken in OU on any Pokemon, so none of Baton Pass, Geomancy, Smeargle, or Scolipede should be banned. The strategy is inconsistent and unreliable. That hardly means broken or uncompetitive in my book.

 

[jpw234]

Baton Pass is an interesting game mechanic that leads to interesting strategies. It effectively poses the question, "is it worth it to dedicate an entire teamslot to assist a teammate in setting up?" Some Pokemon have the potential to be incredibly strong if they can achieve certain stat boosts, but lack the ability to consistently set themselves up due to frailty, type weaknesses, or movepool deficiencies - Baton Pass offers a method around those weaknesses, but creates weaknesses of its own:
- The BPer usually lacks offensive presence of its own
- The recipient usually isn't powerful without the boosts
These two points mean that a team that is unable to pull off a BP is at a massive disadvantage, forfeiting up to 2 teamslots, which makes them very "all-in" and vulnerable to disruption.

I do not see any reason why a move that does the above is broken or uncompetitive, nor have I seen anybody even attempt to describe why that would be the case. Instead I have seen a lot of reactionary and frankly unthinking posts demanding a blanket ban on the move without any reasoning supporting such an action. If you are going to make broad, sweeping claims like

Baton pass is different, you either lose or win right from team preview. BP takes no skill to use at all. People with no knowledge of the metagame can easily ladder up to 1800+ with the standard BP team if they dont get haxed. Smogon is supposed to be competitive, which means that the better player is supposed to win the majority of the time. Baton pass completely invalidates this because it allows bad players to beat good players. A good player who has a bad match up because he can't beat BP will automatically lose,simple as that.

Fuck all the complex ban BS, just ban the move. For example, if you ban geomancy, people will still figure out ways how to abuse the shitty strategy that is BP. Scoli + CM espeon will still be cancer to face, or people will use other shit like venomoth + espeon, which is why a complex ban wont suffice. Just suspect the move please. Honestly, theres no lateral damage involved anyway except for BP celebi, but who gives a shit?

I realize that many are against a blanket ban of BP, but it needs to go. Complex bans won't solve the issue. If people wanna be carcinogens, then they'll find a way to infect the meta with cancer. dEnIsSsS was the one who standardized BP, and even he said it needed to go in his glorious pass RMT all those months ago. The creator of the chain itself realized that it would be a problem even if it was limited. As Long as BP remains, someone will find a way to exploit it. And then the issue will rise again that will lead to more problems.

Then you should be backing them up with a lot of evidence or reasoning, rather than cursing and ill-thought out metaphors, or nobody is going to take you seriously.

Honestly I love Baton Pass as a concept. 6v6 singles is a very linear format which is in a very real sense a series of 1v1 matchups. Pokemon on a team obviously support each other, but they typically do so by weakening opponents to influence the odds of a later 1v1 matchup, rather than by directly assisting them in any way. Contrast with doubles, which adds a lot of strategic depth by allowing Pokemon to directly support each other. Obviously doubles has its own problems (and I personally enjoy singles much more), but that's one feature that in my opinion is a large upside, and bringing some of that into singles seems to me a good thing.

Past votes make clear that the community believes that Baton Pass can be abused and broken, but that can't directly be applied to this argument. "I'm going to use one of my Pokemon to cover up the weaknesses of this sweeper so that I can take advantage of its strengths" seems to me a perfectly competitive game element. Now, if there is a set-up move or Pokemon that does this strategy far too well, then it would be reasonable to consider suspecting it. I currently don't believe that is the case, but if we wanted to suspect something like Geomancy or Scolipede, that would seem reasonable. But I can't get behind a generalization that claims that all strategies like this are broken/uncompetitive without seeing some seriously convincing arguments first, and nobody in this thread has even begun to provide those.

 

[haunter]

That's actually inductive logic, cause you are stating Y is broken on X mon

Y is also broken on Z mon

Y is broken (on all mons) (see footnotes for why this is getting confusing, no one has defined what a broken move is yet, lol)

I mean I think there has been plenty of discussion about why baton pass itself isn't broken, ie. Celebi, Medicham, lower tier mons with it, etc. But lets do a quick experiment if everyone will humor me.

I'm not stating anything, what I mean is that you can't really tell what's breaking what when starting from the premise that Pokemon X with move Y is a broken combo. You assume it's Pokemon X that's making move Y broken, but one might say that it's move Y that's making Pokémon X broken. This leads to the same slippery slope that we happened to have when we banned Blaziken. What made Blaziken broken? Was it Speed Boost? If so, why didn't we ban Speed Boost a as whole? Was it Speed Boost in conjunction with stab HJK/Flare Blitz/Swords Dance with a high Atk stat? In the end, it was a combination of all those factors combined. Similarly, what broke Swagplay? Was it the confusion hax? or maybe the fact that it could not be taunted/stopped when used with Prankster letting the Swagplay user force a lot of 50/50? Does this mean that Prankster is broken? What matters to me is that banning Swagger didn't really affect the meta outside of removing an unarguably uncompetitive element from the game. Again, I'm not implying that BP itself is broken/uncompetitive (do note that I'm using the term "broken" atechnically here), I'm just saying that if BP is still a problem, then I wouldn't go out of my way to save a move that gets barely any usage outside of Geo-Pass.

However this whole argument isn't really relevant. What matters here is:
1) is Baton Pass still a problem?
2) if so, would it be acceptable to blanket ban it?
3) would banning Baton Pass as a whole remove actually viable strategies from the metagame?

I've been getting mixed feedbacks on the topic, so I'm looking for concrete examples rather than abstract theorymon.

 

[Tesung]

These arguments are almost entirely ridiculous at least in tone and way they argue. Bp isn't actually the disease cancer n_n In terms of BP itself, I was the one who asked Haunter to suspect it, asked many other people what they thought, and bitched endlessly until we agreed to nerf it Now, I'm honestly not that concerned about it. I guess you can still lose to it, but no one would really bring it to a competitive match. It a lot easier to play around, you just can't let their mons die in the turns they want. The main problem of previous Bp was that it took no skill, and took skill out of the equation of the match, but this has at least some skill involved on the opponents side. Its "matchup based" which is true, but matchup is a factor in mons regardless, this just makes it a slightly bigger problem for like 1/40 ladder games (I barely see it anymore) I would prefer teams like it not to exist, but the cost of losing shit like bp celebi (a very good mon) and other random bp shit that I personally think are good in the meta (I remember McMeghan saying he thinks they are underrated and good) isn't worth it,especially cuz we would have to do some kind of complex ban and have an aids suspect ladder.

 

[Reverb]

Baton Pass is certainly broke when used in conjunction with Magic Bounce. We're all well aware of the Memento-Pass team that features Whimsicott, Smeargle, and Espeon. My main issue is that it comes down purely to team match ups. That is, if you team is equipped to handle that specific team, you win; if it is not, you lose. Users of this team pretty much do the same moves in the same order no matter what the other player does. There is virtually no skill involved in this team. Recently, I lost to Skitty (who used BP). Now I am a vastly superior player to Skitty (to quantify, his peak XY OU rating was ~1700 whereas mine was 2056), but he had a decisive team matchup. When our goal is to reduce the role of team matchups in determining games, we should not permit a move that essentially turns every match into team rock-paper-scissors (where BP is paper and scissors at the same time).

We've tried nerfing it, and it has not worked. Frankly, I believe that as long as BP is still allowed, people like dEnIsSsS will find new ways to make broken teams that take no skill to use. For example, if we banned Magic Bounce, Ingrain+BP abuse might become a thing. Ultimately, there are no legitimize uses for BP in the metagame other than powering up one killer poke (almost always Espeon right now). Dry-passing is hardly ever used, while stat passing is incredibly common. Baton Pass has taken a great deal of skill out of the game; the OU room on PS has actually banned it from room tours because it turns every game into a coin flip. Pokemon is supposed to be predominantly a game of skill; baton pass is anathema to this ideal. For the sake of the game, I recommend a complete banning of Baton Pass.

EDIT:
I would not ban Magic Bounce, because that entails the banning of many Pokemon who are great for the game (like Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie).

 

[jpw234]

My main issue is that it comes down purely to team match ups. That is, if you team is equipped to handle that specific team, you win; if it is not, you lose.

This is true for literally every team. Why is it a bannable offense here? Is it true to a greater extent? Do you believe that there are too few ways to be "equipped to handle" Baton Pass? What would be an acceptable amount of counters to the strategy for it to be legitimate?

Users of this team pretty much do the same moves in the same order no matter what the other player does. There is virtually no skill involved in this team.

Presumably you believe the first sentence to be an argument for the second. Do you have any evidence for this argument? The roadmap for these teams is certainly more well-defined than most, but that's just because they're all-in on a single strategy from before the battle. Why is that bad? Is there a way to determine when a strategy is too linear to be allowed? Why is it different from a balanced team that always uses a single Pokemon to clean up? If the moves for the BP team are really so predictable, shouldn't they be incredibly easy to beat?

Frankly, I believe that as long as BP is still allowed, people like dEnIsSsS will find new ways to make broken teams that take no skill to use. For example, if we banned Magic Bounce, Ingrain+BP abuse might become a thing.

Why? What Pokemon do you think would be good with Ingrain+BP? Even in an incredibly offensive metagame with so many hard-hitting Pokemon, you think that healing an extra 6.25% a turn would be unbeatable?

Ultimately, there are no legitimize uses for BP in the metagame other than powering up one killer poke (almost always Espeon right now). Dry-passing is hardly ever used, while stat passing is incredibly common.

Why is "powering up one killer poke" not a "legitimate use" of Baton Pass? What's bad about trying to sweep with a single Pokemon? What distinguishes Baton Passing from regular stat-boosting? Why are you discounting popular sets like Baton Pass Mega-Medicham/Celebi/etc. and other non-GeoPass BP teams like Croven's Togekiss->Mega-Ampharos chain?

EDIT:
I would not ban Magic Bounce, because that entails the banning of many Pokemon who are great for the game (like Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie).

Why is it worth it to save Pokemon that are not broken with Magic Bounce, but not worth it to save Pokemon that are not broken with Baton Pass? Is there something that distinguishes abilities and moves here?

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

This is true for literally every team. Why is it a bannable offense here? Is it true to a greater extent? Do you believe that there are too few ways to be "equipped to handle" Baton Pass? What would be an acceptable amount of counters to the strategy for it to be legitimate?

This is not true for every team, and you know it. Have you ever gone into a battle in a tourney or watched one on smogtours and said"wow that isnt even fair that team matchup means its literally impossible for the other guy to win?"(obviously not including a game of 6 stall breakers verse a stall team/obvious CT)If you answered yes, you were wrong. The meta we are in is definitely matchup based, but not even close to the extent of thinking that you have no chance to win. But yes there are too few ways to handle baton pass, moves like haze cant even be used because taunt is nonstop on the current teams, whirlwind/roar users also get taunted or outsped and put to sleep, the most effective thing I have seen are random trick users that surprise the Bp user, but the point is that there just simply are not enough viabe ways to stop baton pass. There is not a set number of counters to a strat to make it ok, there just needs to be counters that arent completely useless against any other team. I mean for example, mega heracross is one of the best stall breakers, but if you lead with him against a HO team you are more likely than not to get a kill, so just because a person has a dedicated stall breaker, it still has viability in all the other games. This makes the other playstyles balanced within themselves, in other words there is this holy trinity(with sub categories) of offense, stall, and balanced, while baton pass teams just sit on the outside and shit on all three playstyles. I mean just think about the matchups that each of the three have against baton pass, stall has to deal with all of its mons constantly getting taunted until an espeon with +2 spdef spatk speed +3 def, comes in only to be immune to all the ways stall can damage it. Offense has to deal with getting mementod on and deal with the tailwind that allows something to either get put to sleep or setup on,(bisharp is admittedly a good way to deal with memento), and balanced teams are worst of all because they are too busy trying to deal with the other two playstyles to worry about having a dedicated mon to stopping bp.

Presumably you believe the first sentence to be an argument for the second. Do you have any evidence for this argument? The roadmap for these teams is certainly more well-defined than most, but that's just because they're all-in on a single strategy from before the battle. Why is that bad? Is there a way to determine when a strategy is too linear to be allowed? Why is it different from a balanced team that always uses a single Pokemon to clean up? If the moves for the BP team are really so predictable, shouldn't they be incredibly easy to beat?

This argument is more of an argument of uncompetitve, not so much broken. Why would I want to battle a guy that is just spamming as many games as he can on the ladder using the same exact strategy he used on the last ten people he played? The people using these could literally have 10 battles open and not miss a beat because they are not using "skill" they are just spamming the ladder and making plays with hardly taking into account his opponents moves. That isnt a competitive aspect, and it certainly isnt something that should be encouraged. And as far as its predictable so it should be easy to beat, I just think you are trying to be difficult at this point. Obviously predictability doesnt mean something isnt broken, mega pinsir has literally ONE set but is still able to sweep entire teams, and he isnt the only one. The only way the predictability comes into play is if the opponent has counters for baton pass.

Why? What Pokemon do you think would be good with Ingrain+BP? Even in an incredibly offensive metagame with so many hard-hitting Pokemon, you think that healing an extra 6.25% a turn would be unbeatable?

Smeargle with tailwind support can use either geomancy or cotton guard depending on whats out(and just got hit with a memento), use spore when they switch, ingrain on the free turn of sleep and then pass to mega slowbro who is now unstoppable as it could use either calm mind or iron defense(depending on what smeargle passed it) and then it cant be stopped. Might not be the best example but thats because I dont spend time making these teams, the point is that something ALWAYS comes up, it has been months and there have been two attempts to nerf baton pass but it always comes back.

Why is "powering up one killer poke" not a "legitimate use" of Baton Pass? What's bad about trying to sweep with a single Pokemon? What distinguishes Baton Passing from regular stat-boosting? Why are you discounting popular sets like Baton Pass Mega-Medicham/Celebi/etc. and other non-GeoPass BP teams like Croven's Togekiss->Mega-Ampharos chain?

Thats the problem, "powering up one killer poke" IS a "legitimate use" of baton pass,In fact its the main use, it just isnt a competitive strategy because in order for a team to prepare for baton pass they would need to prepare for a completely different amount of threats. I mean passing even +2 speed to certain mon completely changes them as mon, they now arent checked by certain things, I mean do you think having to prepare for all the mons in OU with different stat boosts is a good way to be teambuilding? I dont want to have to see a scolipede and Kyurem and think fuck I should have prepared for a kyurem b that has triple the speed and twice the defense. But more importantly if you are going to say popular sets like celebi and bp medicham, YOU need to back that up with evidence, ll you have said is we arent providing anything concrete, and then you pull this by listing two mons that are rarely seen with baton pass and then say ETC. as if there are just so many to count.

Why is it worth it to save Pokemon that are not broken with Magic Bounce, but not worth it to save Pokemon that are not broken with Baton Pass? Is there something that distinguishes abilities and moves here?

The obvious reason is magic bounce is only viewed as broken in combination with baton pass, no one has ever thought that magic bounce needing suspecting before baton pass. And that is the issue, we think oh well speed boost is broken, magic bounce is broken, stored power is broken, geomancy is broken, but none of these things are broken, they are only viewed as problems by people trying to save baton pass so their celebi could potentially dodge a pursuit.

responses in the quote in red, But as a general response I understand I respond in a stream of consciousness way, but thats because I dont truly believe that anybody thinks baton pass is so vital to the meta that losing it would be awful and just unacceptable, or even that baton pass is healthy for the meta. And jpw I respect how you are really trying to dig into the root of the problem with all your questions, but it seems like you are just asking questions for the sake of asking them. You seem to want someone to do a research paper for you with documentation and replays and statistiscs on why baton pass should be banned, but all of us have come across it and all of us have lost to it and felt helpless as it happened. Sure you could make a great team and play around baton pass, but you could also make a great team and play around swagger, the combo of chansey+rotom-w was usually a guarenteed win against those teams, and those are two very common very useful OU mons, but swagger still got banned. If you want a really well thought out response maybe keep it to just one targeted question, so I can think about it instead of just vomitting all over my keyboard lol.

 

[Jukain]

A lot of the posts in this thread seem to be fueled more by personal hatred or opposition to said hatred than the actual problem itself.

What we should do is just leave Baton Pass the fuck alone. We already made it a completely terrible strategy barring a very specific six Pokemon that are incredibly easy to play around with an average team. Full Baton Pass was literally ebola. I agree that doing something about it was overall a good decision. Then people innovated ways to make three Pokemon Baton Pass teams work, and instead of making minor adjustments to teams in order to beat it, everyone bitched. Same shit is happening here.

Baton Pass is not broken in OU on any Pokemon, so none of Baton Pass, Geomancy, Smeargle, or Scolipede should be banned. The strategy is inconsistent and unreliable. That hardly means broken or uncompetitive in my book.

This post shows inexperience with GeoPass. The strategy is far from inconsistent and unreliable, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not just minor adjustments that have to be made to prepare for this strategy, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. It's not incredibly easy to play around, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Saying that because we got rid of 6-mon BP (a worse problem), GeoPass is not broken is fallacious. Just because you say BP is not a problem does not make it so.

Comparing BP to literal cancer is also not appropriate. That's blatant hyperbole and is by no means a factual analogy.

Based of the observations and conclusions of frequent ladder players and my own, it is clear that GeoPass is a problem. It's certainly good and consistent enough to the point where, for example, Dice was laddering part of the OLT with it and multiple users have peaked the ladder with it (how much this means is up to debate, but it's not insignificant). Now the real question is, what's the issue. The issue is that Tailwind + screens + Taunt + Memento + GeoPass + Gothitelle + Espeon(/Mega Latias in place of Gothitelle in ORAS which just makes this even more scary) is too much for teams to handle. While the Baton Passing core must be supported significantly to function, with this support it is an autowin against many common 'good teams', which IS problematic. Teams of any defensive/balanced playstyle don't have a chance. Offensive teams have a chance if they crit or the BP player doesn't have a clue what they're doing (and by this I mean really, really incompetent).

What I think this has proven is that the issue is amount of boosts and efficiency of obtaining said boosts, not quantity of Pokemon passing boosts or specific array of support for passing these boosts. The reason that BP players keep innovating new ways to support passing boosts is because the array of tools available to do so in the game of Pokemon is absolutely enormous. It's not ridiculous to imagine that banning anything related to this specific combination would lead to some other form of BP becoming prevalent and probably just as much of a problem. I do not support a full ban of Baton Pass. There are a few pragmatic reasons for this, one of the main ones being that Baton Pass does not affect the tournament scene whatsoever. It's really a matter of ethics and how people play the game at that level, so you will almost never see BP in any tour, with very few exceptions in the past that have come with resounding scolds from the community at large. As such, I believe that it would be unfair to limit the options of high-level players in perfectly legitimate and competitive strategies just because this style of full Baton Pass (passing multiple boosts to some sort of ultimate recipient with a team based around that) is uncompetitive.

If you want to talk specific collateral damage, here are some things. First of all, we should take into consideration lower tiers even though they technically don't affect OU tiering; the collateral damage afforded to them is undesirable. Furthermore, you're limiting the following viable passers (list may be missing some things; that's not the point):

Celebi: Nasty Plot, Substitute, Swords Dance, drypassing to avoid Pursuit
Mega Scizor: Swords Dance
Mega Medicham: Substitute/getting in other mons for free to take advantage of answers to it
Mega Absol: Swords Dance (ben gay will tell you this is viable if you don't believe me)
(In ORAS) Mega Lopunny: Substitute/the ability to pivot out
Togekiss: Nasty Plot
Scolipede: Speed Boost, Swords Dance
Venomoth: Quiver Dance

Whether you disagree with the viability of these strategies to whatever extent is pretty much irrelevant; the point is that limiting the options of these Pokemon solely because of full Baton Pass teams by implementing a blanket ban on Baton Pass is unfair and undesirable collateral. Furthermore, I believe there are other ways we can approach this issue. As such, I think we should pursue other options.

When I said the amount of boosts and efficiency of obtaining said boosts is an issue goes back to a point that AM made in another post: the passers are the problem. Specifically, passers that are able to obtain a large amount of boosts in an efficient manner, such as Cotton Guard + Geomancy + Power Herb Smeargle and Speed Boost + Iron Defense Scolipede. From this I think the best option is something like what alexwolf proposed in an earlier post, which is to ban Baton Passing a certain amount of boosts. However, I don't think that all boosts are a problem. Normal SmashPass without all the various other support, while many people might call this 'gay' or 'dumb', is not broken or uncompetitive. Celebi passing +6 Special Attack to something is not broken or uncompetitive. The issue is when the receiver both has great power (usually with Stored Power) AND cannot be broken defensively (through the use of moves like Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Amnesia, Geomancy, and Cotton Guard, possibly combined with screens) AND is faster than everything else (Speed boosts [eg Scolipede's Speed Boost, Smeargle's Geomancy, and Cottonee/Whimsicott Tailwind]).

Due to all this, I think the best course of action is banning the use of Baton Pass with both a move(s) on the set that boosts defenses and a move(s) or ability that boosts Speed. Without the defensive and Speed advantage, full Baton Pass teams cannot succeed. I don't think it is too convoluted and is a working solution that addresses both of the specific problems that full Baton Pass teams cause and capitalize on. Definitely open to any other solutions that solve the specific issue; this is merely a suggestion.

 

[ryan]

This post shows inexperience with GeoPass. The strategy is far from inconsistent and unreliable, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I've played it multiple times. I know exactly how it works. Recently, I beat Skitty (who used BP). Now I'm a vastly superior player to Skitty (to quantify, his peak XY OU rating was ~1700 whereas mine was probably 1300 because the best step against HIV is abstinence), and I had a Bisharp. He couldn't Memento on anything, so his only hope towards beating me was to get a free switch into Smeargle on a full para, which didn't happen.

You're also right Jukain. Saying that getting rid of full Baton Pass means Baton Pass is not currently broken is completely fallacious, which is exactly why I never said it. Saying that it is literally ebola (I never said cancer c'mon man I'm not that insensitive) is also hyperbole. That was the entire point.

Here's the deal: an incredibly vocal minority is tired of getting trounced by BP because they won't make minor adjustments to their teams in order to beat it, and I'm one of the few people who cares enough to tell you guys to stop bitching because BP is ebola. Run Taunt Thundurus. Run Unaware Clefable. Run any fucking Bisharp set. These are just three things that come to mind that I use on multiple teams without even thinking about Baton Pass, and no, it has never been a problem for me. Even average teams without these examples and without considering BP still beat the only dedicated BP team handily. Fuck, the other day I faced MattL using dual dance BP Mew into Mega Latias, and even though I flinched his Mega Latias with Bisharp, I still would have won without it (the turn I flinched him, he went for HP Fire and would have been revenged by my entire team because I denied the Speed boosts with Icy Wind Belt Keldeo--which is a good set btw, ask ben gay if you don't believe me).

You guys can continue writing long ass posts about how BP is uncompetitive and matchup reliant and (insert Smogon buzzword), but it doesn't change the fact that it's not.

 

[alexwolf]

I've played it multiple times. I know exactly how it works. Recently, I beat Skitty (who used BP). Now I'm a vastly superior player to Skitty (to quantify, his peak XY OU rating was ~1700 whereas mine was probably 1300 because the best step against HIV is abstinence), and I had a Bisharp. He couldn't Memento on anything, so his only hope towards beating me was to get a free switch into Smeargle on a full para, which didn't happen.

Sorry Hollywood, but that's bullshit. I won't get into discussing how Smeargle can get past a Bisharp that switched into Memento with some luck (depending on how many turns Bisharp stays asleep), but are you suggesting that every team starts running Bisharp in order to stand a winning chance vs those kind of teams? Explain to me what any kind of defensive team can do to not lose miserably vs Smeargle + Espeon supported by dual screens. Carry SpD Jirachi, which btw can be trapped and made useless by Gothitelle's Trick? Like, really, i can't understand how you can't see this playstyle as cancerous and uncompetitive when it is almost completely formulaic and thus requires very little skill to use, and has so many auto wins vs so many kinds of teams.

It's one thing to argue about which way to deal with this situation, but denying that there is a situation to begin with is just misguided.

EDIT: You also mentioned Unaware Clefable to beat this playstyle, which doesn't work because of Stored Power.

 

[Reverb]

I've played it multiple times. I know exactly how it works. Recently, I beat Skitty (who used BP). Now I'm a vastly superior player to Skitty (to quantify, his peak XY OU rating was ~1700 whereas mine was probably 1300 because the best step against HIV is abstinence), and I had a Bisharp. He couldn't Memento on anything, so his only hope towards beating me was to get a free switch into Smeargle on a full para, which didn't happen.

You're also right Jukain. Saying that getting rid of full Baton Pass means Baton Pass is not currently broken is completely fallacious, which is exactly why I never said it. Saying that it is literally ebola (I never said cancer c'mon man I'm not that insensitive) is also hyperbole. That was the entire point.

Here's the deal: an incredibly vocal minority is tired of getting trounced by BP because they won't make minor adjustments to their teams in order to beat it, and I'm one of the few people who cares enough to tell you guys to stop bitching because BP is ebola. Run Taunt Thundurus. Run Unaware Clefable. Run any fucking Bisharp set. These are just three things that come to mind that I use on multiple teams without even thinking about Baton Pass, and no, it has never been a problem for me. Even average teams without these examples and without considering BP still beat the only dedicated BP team handily. Fuck, the other day I faced MattL using dual dance BP Mew into Mega Latias, and even though I flinched his Mega Latias with Bisharp, I still would have won without it (the turn I flinched him, he went for HP Fire and would have been revenged by my entire team because I denied the Speed boosts with Icy Wind Belt Keldeo--which is a good set btw, ask ben gay if you don't believe me).

You guys can continue writing long ass posts about how BP is uncompetitive and matchup reliant and (insert Smogon buzzword), but it doesn't change the fact that it's not.

Dude you may have played it multiple times, but I've literally played over 4,000 XY OU matches (over 2.5K on my main), and I've played at the top level, not elo hell. Frankly, if I were to make adjustments to my team to have a 100% victory against BP all the time, I would have to use some very specific Pokemon. My opponents would then adjust their team to always beat my team. I would then have to choose between losing to BP or losing to them based on team matchup. Also, Unaware Clefable doesn't do shit against BP; Stored Power still gets a power boost. Moreover, BP runs Gothitelle to choice trap Clefable. As for Bisharp, at best always running sharp is over-centralizing. That being said, after Reflect and Cotton Guard he isn't doing much. Moreover, Gothitelle can choice trap Bisharp, or Dugtrio can outright kill him. Keep in mind, if we are forced to run Bisharp on every team, BP players will simply run Dugtrio. BP is over-centralizing by nature, not to mention being broken. To be blunt, I don't think you have the requisite experience to comment on this issue. Yes, there are Pokemon that do well against BP, but forcing us to run one or two very specific Pokemon is over-centralizing.

EDIT:
Haunter, here's a concrete example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-176816359

Tagging reyscarface in case he has any thoughts.

 

[jpw234]

Explain to me what any kind of defensive team can do to not lose miserably vs Smeargle + Espeon supported by dual screens. Carry SpD Jirachi, which btw can be trapped and made useless by Gothitelle's Trick? Like, really, i can't understand how you can't see this playstyle as cancerous and uncompetitive when it is almost completely formulaic and thus requires very little skill to use, and has so many auto wins vs so many kinds of teams.

Well the broken part of this is Gothitelle Shadow Tag, not Baton Pass.

When I said the amount of boosts and efficiency of obtaining said boosts is an issue goes back to a point that AM made in another post: the passers are the problem. Specifically, passers that are able to obtain a large amount of boosts in an efficient manner, such as Cotton Guard + Geomancy + Power Herb Smeargle and Speed Boost + Iron Defense Scolipede. From this I think the best option is something like what alexwolf proposed in an earlier post, which is to ban Baton Passing a certain amount of boosts. However, I don't think that all boosts are a problem. Normal SmashPass without all the various other support, while many people might call this 'gay' or 'dumb', is not broken or uncompetitive. Celebi passing +6 Special Attack to something is not broken or uncompetitive. The issue is when the receiver both has great power (usually with Stored Power) AND cannot be broken defensively (through the use of moves like Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Amnesia, Geomancy, and Cotton Guard, possibly combined with screens) AND is faster than everything else (Speed boosts [eg Scolipede's Speed Boost, Smeargle's Geomancy, and Cottonee/Whimsicott Tailwind]).

Due to all this, I think the best course of action is banning the use of Baton Pass with both a move(s) on the set that boosts defenses and a move(s) or ability that boosts Speed. Without the defensive and Speed advantage, full Baton Pass teams cannot succeed. I don't think it is too convoluted and is a working solution that addresses both of the specific problems that full Baton Pass teams cause and capitalize on. Definitely open to any other solutions that solve the specific issue; this is merely a suggestion.

I appreciate this post as one that makes an actual argument and provides a proposal to solve the problems he isolates. I don't think that a blanket ban on Defense/Speed boosting moves is appropriate - I think you were closer to the mark earlier when you talk about the efficiency of obtaining boosts/wide range of ways to obtain them as the problem. Basically, the two biggest issues are Smeargle, who has every boosting move available to him (which is huge, can any other Pokemon boost all the stats he can so quickly?), and possibly along this line of thought Geomancy, and then Scolipede, since he can passively gain Speed boosts while boosting Attack/Defense. Although honestly, the GeoPass teams are all using Smeargle.
I think that suspecting Geomancy or Smeargle would be reasonable as a response to these concerns.

responses in the quote in red, But as a general response I understand I respond in a stream of consciousness way, but thats because I dont truly believe that anybody thinks baton pass is so vital to the meta that losing it would be awful and just unacceptable, or even that baton pass is healthy for the meta. And jpw I respect how you are really trying to dig into the root of the problem with all your questions, but it seems like you are just asking questions for the sake of asking them. You seem to want someone to do a research paper for you with documentation and replays and statistiscs on why baton pass should be banned, but all of us have come across it and all of us have lost to it and felt helpless as it happened. Sure you could make a great team and play around baton pass, but you could also make a great team and play around swagger, the combo of chansey+rotom-w was usually a guarenteed win against those teams, and those are two very common very useful OU mons, but swagger still got banned. If you want a really well thought out response maybe keep it to just one targeted question, so I can think about it instead of just vomitting all over my keyboard lol.

Frankly, that's silly. The burden of proof belongs with the side of an argument proposing change. Banning something, especially a move like Baton Pass, is a big change. Those who support it have the responsibility of convincing others of their position; it isn't my job to poke holes in your arguments. So when people run screaming into this kind of thread demanding BP be banned without actually giving any arguments for it...well frankly "having lost to it and feeling helpless" doesn't cut it.

 

[alexwolf]

Well the broken part of this is Gothitelle Shadow Tag, not Baton Pass.

So, every team has to run Taunt Thundurus, SpD Jirachi, or Bisharp, in order to stand a chance against this team. And if i didn't explain it well enough already, Bisharp has a huge chance to lose even if it switches into Memento, turning the game into a coinflip. Smeargle uses Spore on turn one, then uses Geomancy, and then sets up Cotton Guard. If Bisharp doesn't wake up on turn one, gg.

 

[Reverb]

So, every team has to run Taunt Thundurus, SpD Jirachi, or Bisharp, in order to stand a chance against this team. And if didn't explain it well already, Bisharp has a huge chance to lose even if it switches into Memento, making the game a coinflip. Smeargle uses Spore on turn one, then uses Geomancy, and then sets up Cotton Guard. If Bisharp doesn't wake up on turn one, gg.

I think you mean after one turn of sleep. There are NO first turn wakes in Generation 6.

 

[alexwolf]

I think you mean after one turn of sleep. There are NO first turn wakes in Generation 6.

Yeah, that's what i meant.

 

[jpw234]

So, every team has to run Taunt Thundurus, SpD Jirachi, or Bisharp, in order to stand a chance against this team. And if didn't explain it well already, Bisharp has a huge chance to lose even if it switches into Memento, making the game a coinflip. Smeargle uses Spore on turn one, then uses Geomancy, and then sets up Cotton Guard. If Bisharp doesn't wake up on turn one, gg.

Teams will adapt as they always have and always will. Somehow, stall teams are getting by without running Doublade or Weezing and not auto-losing to every Mega-Heracross, because people play around stuff and figure out new counters when they're forced to do so. There are plenty of reasonable answers out there - Mega-Aerodactyl is very good against GeoPass (along with a bunch of other fast Taunt users), Tricking Smeargle does it, Mold Breaker Roar (i.e. SpD Mega-Gyara) is a perfectly viable thing, Sableye/Thundurus/Whimsicott pretty much auto-win, and of course you can always fall back on Haze Quagsire, CM/Unaware Clef, Perish Song...these things all exist, at varying levels of viability, and are available to different playstyles. If you build a team and don't include a way to beat Baton Pass, you're very likely to lose to Baton Pass, which is shocking. If you don't have a Greninja check you're likely to have a hard time on the ladder as well.
Ultimately, BP teams are just a different and powerful way of attacking the metagame. Usually when that happens, the metagame changes; alternatively, we could refuse to change, complain that we're losing too much, and call for a ban.

 

[Reverb]

Teams will adapt as they always have and always will. Somehow, stall teams are getting by without running Doublade or Weezing and not auto-losing to every Mega-Heracross, because people play around stuff and figure out new counters when they're forced to do so. There are plenty of reasonable answers out there - Mega-Aerodactyl is very good against GeoPass (along with a bunch of other fast Taunt users), Tricking Smeargle does it, Mold Breaker Roar (i.e. SpD Mega-Gyara) is a perfectly viable thing, Sableye/Thundurus/Whimsicott pretty much auto-win, and of course you can always fall back on Haze Quagsire, CM/Unaware Clef, Perish Song...these things all exist, at varying levels of viability, and are available to different playstyles. If you build a team and don't include a way to beat Baton Pass, you're very likely to lose to Baton Pass, which is shocking. If you don't have a Greninja check you're likely to have a hard time on the ladder as well.
Ultimately, BP teams are just a different and powerful way of attacking the metagame. Usually when that happens, the metagame changes; alternatively, we could refuse to change, complain that we're losing too much, and call for a ban.

This is a false equivalent. Moreover, if, by your own admission, we have to run one of a few Pokemon to have a chance, then BP is in fact over-centralizing. Most threats can be "played around," but BP is rather unique in that it cannot be played around. You can either beat it or your can't.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Baton Pass itself is not fundamentally broken: it is a combination of support moves that is. I'm sure you all know the new BP team by now, Smeargle/Whimsicott/Talonflame/Espeon/Gothitelle/Azelf. Now, imagine we ban Baton Pass. dEnIsSsS's team simply has to swap out the BP core, and add a pair of deadly sweepers in the place of Espeon and Smeargle. With the amount of support he provides, he's pretty much guaranteed to get +2 on something. Mind you, this is Gen 6, where there's several mons that can boost themselves and make themselves extremely difficult to check/counter after said boosts, including things that have Magic Bounce. So, in conclusion, I don't think banning Baton Pass will solve anything.
Then again, it never hurts to suspect test something, although a complex ban is just dumb; either BP is broken or it isn't. tl;dr either suspect BP itself or suspect nothing.

 

[alexwolf]

Teams will adapt as they always have and always will. Somehow, stall teams are getting by without running Doublade or Weezing and not auto-losing to every Mega-Heracross, because people play around stuff and figure out new counters when they're forced to do so. There are plenty of reasonable answers out there - Mega-Aerodactyl is very good against GeoPass (along with a bunch of other fast Taunt users), Tricking Smeargle does it, Mold Breaker Roar (i.e. SpD Mega-Gyara) is a perfectly viable thing, Sableye/Thundurus/Whimsicott pretty much auto-win, and of course you can always fall back on Haze Quagsire, CM/Unaware Clef, Perish Song...these things all exist, at varying levels of viability, and are available to different playstyles. If you build a team and don't include a way to beat Baton Pass, you're very likely to lose to Baton Pass, which is shocking. If you don't have a Greninja check you're likely to have a hard time on the ladder as well.
Ultimately, BP teams are just a different and powerful way of attacking the metagame. Usually when that happens, the metagame changes; alternatively, we could refuse to change, complain that we're losing too much, and call for a ban.

Stall teams are indeed running Doublade, alongside HP Flying / Toxic Lando-T, Scarf Gothitelle, and Acrobatics Gliscor, their only ways of dealing with Mega Heracross. The difference between every threat out there and the Smeargle + Espeon combo is that there aren't viable and non gimmick checks to it that can fit on all kinds of teams. Not only this, but even if you have one of those checks, you are not even guaranteed to beat consistently those kinds of teams and the games boil down to a bunch of coinflips, not game planning and educated choices. I mean, let's look at your examples. Mega Aerodactyl gets Taunted by both Whimsicott and Cottonee and then becomes set up bait for Azelf / Smeargle, depending on if you switch out with Mega Aerodactyl or not. Sableye is a very niche Pokemon and shouldn't be mentioned in those discussions at all, same goes with Whimsicott. Thundurus can get trapped and KOed by Gothitelle, depending on a bunch of coin flips. Haze Quagsire is Taunted by Whimsicott, Cottonee, and Azelf, put to sleep by Smeargle, and gets OHKOed by Espeon's Stored Power, unless it gets lucky and wakes up early. If Smeargle is running Taunt, Quagsire is completely useless. It has been already mentioned that Unaware Clefable loses to Stored Power Espeon, so that's another check off the list. As for Perish Song, let's see the good OU Pokemon that have access to this move: Politoed and Celebi, of which, only Celebi can face Espeon without dying to Stored Power, which can also get trapped and made useless by Gothitelle. You also mentioned Tricking Smeargle. Smeargle under Tailwind is faster than any commonly used scarfer and can put it to sleep before it manages to use Trick. And even if it uses Trick because of waking up too early, Smeargle can still Baton Pass away its boosts because it will be faster and not yet locked into a move after getting the Scarf. So yeah, Tricking a scarf doesn't work either. Mold Breaker Roar is another gimmick, as defensive Gyarados always prefers to use Leftovers over its Mega stone, because it wants Intimidate and regular Gyarados's typing. And even in the case of a RestTalk Mega Gyarados, the only viable one that i have seen is DD + Waterfall, as all out defensive sets are outclassed by regular Gyarados.

Teams will adapt as they always have and will you say? First, this can be said for every single Uber Pokemon, and second, the Smeargle + Espeon team with Memento + screens + Tailwind support has been out for months now, yet the metagame still hasn't adapted to beating it. Coincidence, people being lazy, or the strategy actually being uncompetitive? I pick the third.

 

[jpw234]

This is a false equivalent. Moreover, if, by your own admission, we have to run one of a few Pokemon to have a chance, then BP is in fact over-centralizing. Most threats can be "played around," but BP is rather unique in that it cannot be played around. You can either beat it or your can't.

What is the difference between "playing around" something and beating it? The only difference is that you can't go "around" a BP team because it's a team and not a single Pokemon.
I don't see how you can make a judgment that BP is "over-centralizing" when nobody is changing their teams to try to beat it, unless you mean it's centralizing our forum discussions.

The difference between every threat out there and the Smeargle + Espeon combo is that there aren't viable and non gimmick checks to it that can fit on all kinds of teams. Not only this, but even if you have one of those checks, you are not even guaranteed to beat consistently those kinds of teams and the games boil down to a bunch of coinflips, not game planning and educated choices.

The only thing that could even be considered a "coinflip" that you mentioned is the sleep timer...

I mean, let's look at your examples. Mega Aerodactyl gets Taunted by both Whimsicott and Cottonee and then becomes set up bait for Azelf / Smeargle, depending on if you switch out with Mega Aerodactyl or not. Sableye is a very niche Pokemon and shouldn't be mentioned in those discussions at all, same goes with Whimsicott. Thundurus can get trapped and KOed by Gothitelle, depending on a bunch of coin flips. Haze Quagsire is Taunted by Whimsicott, Cottonee, and Azelf, put to sleep by Smeargle, and gets OHKOed by Espeon's Stored Power, unless it gets lucky and wakes up early. If Smeargle is running Taunt, Quagsire is completely useless. It has been already mentioned that Unaware Clefable loses to Stored Power Espeon, so that's another check off the list. As for Perish Song, let's see the good OU Pokemon that have access to this move: Politoed and Celebi, of which, only Celebi can face Espeon without dying to Stored Power, which can also get trapped and made useless by Gothitelle. You also mentioned Tricking Smeargle. Smeargle under Tailwind is faster than any commonly used scarfer and can put it to sleep before it manages to use Trick. And even if it uses Trick because of waking up too early, Smeargle can still Baton Pass away its boosts because it will be faster and not yet locked into a move after getting the Scarf. So yeah, Tricking a scarf doesn't work either. Mold Breaker Roar is another gimmick, as defensive Gyarados always prefers to use Leftovers over its Mega stone, because it wants Intimidate and regular Gyarados's typing. And even in the case of a RestTalk Mega Gyarados, the only viable one that i have seen is DD + Waterfall, as all out defensive sets are outclassed by regular Gyarados.

Mega-Aero:
If Whimsicott/Cottonee decide to Taunt you instead of using one of their support options, then laugh at them when they switch in Smeargle and you OHKO it with Stone Edge.
244+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 96 HP / 120 Def Smeargle: 318-375 (115.6 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 246-291 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sableye is a perfectly decent Pokemon and Whimsicott is part of the team that you're claiming to be broken, lol. Also, if Baton Pass is as threatening as you claim it to be, isn't completely hosing it a pretty important niche?
Taunt Thundurus is still a check/counter, and STag should be banned anyway :\
CM/Unaware Clef can boost next to Smeargle, although it's not a particularly common set
Perish Song gets BPed, so do it on Smeargle if you're scared of Espeon...
Going back and forth with hypotheticals is pretty pointless though. In my experience games against GeoPass are very prediction-heavy, where you have the advantage of knowing pretty much exactly what the GeoPass user wants to do, and they have the advantage of being almost certain to win if they can end up doing it, so you have to pick your spots to throw a wrench into their plan. GeoPass can beat any of these Pokemon, but it also does lose to them - it depends on how the battlers predict and play it out.
Also, even if these checks/counters aren't good enough, the answer should be to look at Geomancy or Smeargle rather than Baton Pass. All of the problems you're isolating have to do with the fact that Smeargle can set up a critical mass of boosts too quickly, because of Power Herb/Geomancy and its access to all the best boosting moves for every stat.

Teams will adapt as they always have and will you say? First, this can be said for every single Uber Pokemon, and second, the Smeargle + Espeon team with Memento + screens + Tailwind support has been out for months now, yet the metagame still hasn't adapted to beating it. Coincidence, people being lazy, or the strategy actually being uncompetitive? I pick the third.

And I pick the second. Nobody's using any of the ways to beat BP because they have some strange idea that it's an "unethical strategy" as though "ethics" can be applied to the type of team you use on a Pokemon simulator. That's laziness.

 

[alexwolf]

The only thing that could even be considered a "coinflip" that you mentioned is the sleep timer...

When you have the Thundurus vs Whimsicott matchup, it comes down to a simple coinflip: Use Taunt or Thunderbolt. If you use Taunt as the opponent goes to Goth, you lose. If you use Thunderbolt as Whimsi stays in, you lose. Of course you have the choice to switch out if you predict wrong vs Whimsi and it Taunts you, and then come in with Thundurus later in the game, to prevent Smeargle from passing the boosts with Taunt, but that's another coinflip. I am using the word coinflip not in its strictest meaning, but to showcase the apparent and obvious lack of player choice in this matchup, with the game's outcome depending mostly on luck.

Mega-Aero:
If Whimsicott/Cottonee decide to Taunt you instead of using one of their support options, then laugh at them when they switch in Smeargle and you OHKO it with Stone Edge.
244+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 96 HP / 120 Def Smeargle: 318-375 (115.6 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
244+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 246-291 (84.2 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sableye is a perfectly decent Pokemon and Whimsicott is part of the team that you're claiming to be broken, lol. Also, if Baton Pass is as threatening as you claim it to be, isn't completely hosing it a pretty important niche?
Taunt Thundurus is still a check/counter, and STag should be banned anyway :\
CM/Unaware Clef can boost next to Smeargle, although it's not a particularly common set
Perish Song gets BPed, so do it on Smeargle if you're scared of Espeon...
Going back and forth with hypotheticals is pretty pointless though. In my experience games against GeoPass are very prediction-heavy, where you have the advantage of knowing pretty much exactly what the GeoPass user wants to do, and they have the advantage of being almost certain to win if they can end up doing it, so you have to pick your spots to throw a wrench into their plan. GeoPass can beat any of these Pokemon, but it also does lose to them - it depends on how the battlers predict and play it out.
Also, even if these checks/counters aren't good enough, the answer should be to look at Geomancy or Smeargle rather than Baton Pass. All of the problems you're isolating have to do with the fact that Smeargle can set up a critical mass of boosts too quickly, because of Power Herb/Geomancy and its access to all the best boosting moves for every stat.

Both priority Taunt users have Tailwind, so Smeargle will be faster than Mega Aerodactly when coming in, and you also didn't account for Memento's stat drops. Taunted Mega Aero is huge set up bait for Smeargle. Sableye and Whimsicott are niche and outclassed choices outside of dealing with Baton Pass teams, which is why they can't be brought up as legitimate checks to this strategy. For a strategy to be healthy and not broken, it needs to have viable and non-gimmick checks that have use outside of dealing with said strategy. Taunt Thundurus is a shaky check and still needs to rely on luck to beat the BP team, i already explained this above. Brining up that Shadow Tag is broken is irrelevant to the discussion we are having. CM Unaware Clefable can't boost anywhere, because all the members of the team have Taunt, and Smeargle has Spore. Come on man, have you even faced this team? Same with Perish Song, how can use this move against Taunt and Spore users faster than you?

Finally, i haven't said that i want to see Baton Pass banned as the solution to this problem, but that's another discussion.

And I pick the second. Nobody's using any of the ways to beat BP because they have some strange idea that it's an "unethical strategy" as though "ethics" can be applied to the type of team you use on a Pokemon simulator. That's laziness.

And those ways are? You still haven't mentioned a single reliable one.

 

[Taliheim]

Let's see if I can avoid this firefight here for the time being...

We need to pinpoint exactly what is the problem here, why it needs to be banned, and how it needs to be banned; at the moment, we're floundering around with arguments without establishing anything besides that something needs to be done, be it suspecting something or finding ways for people to prepare for it. I'll attempt to make a list here:

Problem: Dennis' team and all variations of it 1.) allow people of low skill level to beat people of high skill level with both trying their hardest, thus filling the definition of uncompetitive, and 2.) is extremely hard to beat without specific checks/counters that restrict teambuilding. There is also the fact that 3.) people will find ways to replace whatever we ban (though this problem can be nullified due to the fact that the replacement could end up being balanced).

Options for suspecting: 1.) BP itself. While having by far the most collateral damage, there is an argument that most of it is nullified due to the mons being hit aren't common at all (i.e. usage). 2.) A complex ban that dismantles only BP-oriented teams, thus having minimal collateral damage. However, complex bans are not preferred over simple bans (i.e. option 1), and people could find another way to use BP that's just as uncompetitive.

As for my stance on things, I'm for the complex ban, but if they come out with the aforementioned uncompetitive alternative, ban hammer it to ubers.

 

[Taliheim]

Webrowser and I actually had a good discussion, posting it here due to its relevance.

Expand

WebBrowser:

Hey Talen, I saw your recent post on the VR thread and I think you have the right idea, but I also think that there are other possible options besides the two given. Frankly, I doubt that a complex ban would work because I have yet to see a complex ban proposal that would actually solve the problem. From my experience with BP teams, I believe that there are some mons who are broken under the ubers support characteristic due to BP, and therefore should be banned. Smeargle is an obvious suspect here, due to his ability to boost every relevant stat by +2 or more in just two turns, turning any ally into a sweeper that would make geoxern jealous. I also believe that scolipede could very well be broken, just simply due to his ability to setup in the face of almost every physical attacker in the tier, and the unique synergy provided by boosting defense and speed at the same time (prevents you from being outsped and stops priority from inflicting any meaningful damage).

I personally believe that the way to go is to identify broken passers like smeargle and scoli, and ban those. There's no need to give one of the most versatile and unique moves in the game the ban hammer just to protect these few mons (not to mention that banning BP is essentially banning smeargle).

We may or may not still need to ban BP and magic bounce on the same team though. That I am not sure of, as BP is such a versatile and unpredictable move. I think we should try individual mon bans first though.

__________

Talenheim:

Actually, I find Scoliopede balanced, as it's extremely frail, even behind screens, and can be forced out easily with priority. It also can't put mons to sleep like Smeargle. In all, the problem is Dennis' team, so our question is this: How do we remove the broken and uncompetitive team while making Dennis teams obsolete/balanced while minimizing collateral damage, and keeping the ban as simple as possible? I've heard many different ways to go about this, from a blanket ban to banning boosting moves on smeargle. What needs to happen is that we need to find the equilibrium between complexion and collateral damage, in the same way you find the equilibrium of supply and demand - obviously, the more complex it gets, the less collateral, but the simpler, the better, so it's of vital importance to find said equilibrium.

__________

WebBrowser:

Scolipede is nowhere near as easily forced out as you seem to think he is, especially by priority users. Here's an old replay of scolipede not getting forced out by CB talonflame, who is by far the most threatening priority user in the tier(note that the team in the replay is vastly inferior to my current team).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124224420

Most other priority users fail to even give scolipede a headache and are almost universally setup bait.

Once you give him screens support, you can pull off BS like this...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-141292583

or this...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-171211859

Don't get me wrong, geopass is a problem, but do not discount the possibility of other broken BP teams existing. As you can see from the three replays above (yes, they are in chronological order), I've been experimenting with scoli for a very long time and know exactly what he can and cannot do, and me research has led me to believe that scolipede is broken due to his ability to reliably grant his team members multiple boosts in defense and speed, making them essentially unrevengable.

*edit*

As for the complex ban ideas, if we're going to ban certain moves on smeargle we should simply ban smeargle. If we wanted to blanket ban geomancy I could actually get behind that because geomancy is frankly a dumb move, and quiver pass smeargle is almost identical to quiver pass venomoth.

__________

Talenheim:

Ah, forgot about the iron defense variants, I practically always see SD variants and are thus what I think about first.

Though, Scoliopede can also get phazed, as well as needing a safe switch-in to be able to do its thing. In other words, scoliopede is deserving of his viability ranking - very strong, but still has its flaws, making it balanced. For example, scoli can usually only BP once, and the mon that ID variants pass to need a way to boost their own attacking stats, or otherwise face against special attackers that could tank your unboosted hits and hit your unboosted special side. What I'm saying is, Scoliopede has opportunity cost associated with it at many different angles, while smeargle (especially behind screens) doesn't, which is why we're targeting it. And at any rate, Dennis' team will be more manageable with scoli over smeargle imo.

I'm for the geomancy ban. It only hits smeargle, and forces dennis' team to use either scoli, venomoth or a smashpasser. Of those, Scoli won't be able to pass as many reliable boosts, leaving smashpassers the only real option. The question is, are those strong enough to still make the team broken...

__________

WebBrowser:

Smeargle needs a safe swap in every bit as much as scolipede does, if not more so (if scolipede is "frail", then smeargle is a wet tissue). There is, in fact, a massive opportunity cost to using smeargle, in that you need to dedicate at least half your team just to get it out to "do it's thing". The issue with smeargle is that "it's thing" essentially translates into "winning the game", which negates any opportunity cost it has.

The issue with phasers is that they have to be out before scolipede starts boosting. I have had numerous games where scolipede would come out after something RKs greninja (or anything else, but it's usually greninja), set up an ID as they swap in their phaser, and then BP to espeon and proceed to setup further from there. Heck, I even run wobb for the sole purpose of turning their own phaser against them (yes, some phasers run taunt as well, but then we start falling into the "really overspecialized to beat BP" territory).

Scoli having the bulk to come in and setup multiple times

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124007727

Wobb turning phaser into setup bait

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-168915696

As I hope that I have shown, if you give scoli even half the support the geopass gives smeargle, it is plenty capable of ending games, much like smeargle. Smeargle may boost faster, no questions asked, but scolipede has bulk, typing, and versitility on his side, and those things lead to less team reliance. However, the issue for both scolipede and smeargle is not that they require team support, because they do and they require quite a bit of it. The reason why they are issues is that given a single free turn, they can give an ally the ability to sweep the vast majority of the metagame (usually espeon, but I've had numerous scoli-assisted zard-x sweeps as well), and that's bad.

For what it's worth, Scolipede can generally get off 1 or 2 passes per game, 3 on rare occasion. For about 70% of my games, 1 is plenty. I do highly recommend trying out my team, it'll help illustrate what scoli can and cannot do far better then I can.

Oh, and this is all compounded by the fact that unlike smeargle, scolipede actually does have legitimately threatening (not broken, but still threatening) offensive sets that have entirely different checks and counters from ID scoli.

__________

Talenheim:

Agreeing with everything you said.

Now here's the problem: BP is not the sole reason to use these mons. they can both run lead sets, and scoli can use an offensive variant as well. Therefore, it's going to be hard to find one ban that can remove the functionality of both without rendering both of them obsolete, which points to a blanket ban, except that hits more than just 2 mons.

__________

WebBrowser:

And that is largely why I support simply banning Scolipede and Smeargle, not BP and not a complex ban. The smeargle lead sets frankly aren't that great and there will be far less collateral in both OU and lower tiers from banning smeargle then banning BP. Scolipede is slightly better off them smeargle, but from the looks of it he's probably just going to wind up in BL anyway (he was banned for his sweeping ability, not BP), so banning him will also have relatively little collateral.

I can support a blanket geomancy ban if we really want smeargle to stay on the principle that geomancy would be ludicrous on pretty much anything that got it. At that point smeargle will be roughly as powerful as venomoth, who is not broken in OU as far as I can tell (I hope, I will have to test venomoth in a geopass team at some point to ensure this).

It also makes more sense from a banning philosophy standpoint. We decide a mons tiering based on their best movesets. If one (legal) moveset is broken on a certain mon, then that mon is simply broken. We did not ban u-turn even though it made genesect, a mon who had plenty of other valid uses in OU, broken. Nor did we ban speed boost because Blazekin is broken with it. I see no reason why mons who are broken because of BP should get special treatment.

From a collateral minimalization standpoint, a banning philosophy standpoint, and from a pragmatic standpoint (aka, does this actually work?), banning these two mons makes far more sense then pretty much any other proposal I've heard so far.

 

[Aldaron]

So, I'm closing this thread for now.

Not because there weren't legitimate points, because there were, but because Council has decided to close shop until ORAS, and because ORAS themselves will introduce their own immediate issues.

I've personally read every BP argument (kind of a pain tbh...very long posts...) and I am taking them super seriously, so once we deal with the immediate ORAS issues (Mega Mence, Hoopa form, Greninja, whatever else pops), I'll revisit this then and see how to approach the issue.

Thanks for a (mostly :P) productive conversation guys.