Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Gehenna]

To make this relevant to the thread, I totally agree that Lando-t should rise to S. It works great and it's uncommon to see a team without this Pokemon for its excellent utility and resistance to the stone-quake combo.

Yeah, Id second this. Imo its definately an S worthy mon. Few downsides, excellent utility with sr and uturn, the ability to go defensive or scarf (or even rock polish, if youre crazy like that), and being able to beat/wall common mons like terrak and exca make it an amazing glue for any team. Not to mention that the scarf set can check megagross, mdiancie, megatric, megabeedrill, etc

 

[Flarowak]

I think Lando-T has been S worthy for a while tbh. Imo it has more viability than it's other form which was S for a very long time, and can be plugged onto team more easily than tons of others mons because of it's great typing, ability and stat spread.

 

[pika pal]

I'm personally of the opinion for Mew to A. In the role of a stallbreaker, it's simultaneously outclassed and countered by Sableye, who has better defensive typing, shares the recovery options, Magic Bounce prevents it from being Taunted, can serve as a Win-condition with a CM set, and still offers hazard control, arguably better in the hands of a skilled player since Sableye beats many of the common SR users and stops them from being laid in the first place, whereas Mew has to Defog them and sacrifice your own hazards, on top of eating Momentum if its in front of a Fire Type. With the influx of new and fast Megas, Mew becomes set-up fodder for any choosing to run Substitute, which is dangerous in what's becoming a more offensive Metagame. Of the new Megas, it presents Sub or Set-up opportunities to
- Gallade
- Salamence (but then what doesn't)
- Lopunny (Who can pass the intact Sub to a teammate to set-up if it wants)
- Sceptile (0 Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 59-70 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO)
- Resttalk Slowbro (Crobro especially)

I already felt like Mew had a problem with being deadweight against Offense, and with a number of new Megas that can use it for set-up on top of it being outclassed, I'm not sure how well it can fit in. Granted, that enormous movepool gives Mew adaptability, but in its Stallbreaker or Hazard control roles, it's past its prime.

I also want to throw in my 2 cents on Salamence. Even if the games aren't out, we have a ladder for it, and people are clearly of the opinion that it is suspect worthy at least. If not a quick ban, I think the existence of a ladder means we have the means to look into suspecting it by now. I feel it's even more unhealthy to the Meta game than Mega Mawile or Mega Lucario were in XY, and I don't seem to be the only one worried over it. It's skewing the Meta Game to the point that mons like Mega Venusaur are being suggested for drops to B or C (maybe it should drop, but going that low from A/A+?).

 

[heritage]

I'm agreeing with the vote to move Landorus-T up to S ranking. I'm surprised it's not up there already, considering that it's on 1:3 teams on the upper ladder. It's one of the easiest Pokemon, bar Greninja, to chuck onto any sort of team. It's got access to fantastic support and boosting moves like Swords Dance, Rock Polish and Stealth Rocks, and it's pretty unpredictable when it comes to actually fighting it. I think it's only jumped in viability since ORAS was announced. It's great as a check to Mega Mence (Uber plz) and it can grab fantastic momentum with U-Turn. Overall, no matter how over-used I think it is, S rank is long overdue for it.
tr;dl : Lando-T S rank

 

[Stef0w]

lol, new game new attitude I guess, Im actually gonna go ahead and agree with Lando-Doge for S.

Maybe it's just me actually using it on a decent team for once, or me not expecting a 0/o spread for tank hits fo dayz, but It's defo one of the premier pivots/scarfers, and can work as excellent glue on teams. it's water/ice weakness does let it down sometimes, but you need to prepare for that stuff anyway, and none of the Water of lolIce types in the tier enjoys eating a STAB EQ off 145 attack.

Mega-gross should go to S-rank as well, it's such a pain in the nuts to wall, and it's speedtier is just insanely good right now.

Not sure about gallade tho, I dont think I have used it enough (read: at all, salamence too sexy), and sableye seems like a pretty cold stop, and that thing looks like it could reboot the viability of stall (and meta shuts it down again, but whatev's).

Off topic, but Im impressed by camerupt in B-rank, I was scared it would be trash, so Im glad it isnt :)

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Yeah, lando-T fills too many roles.. it can be an offensive scarfer, hazards layer, defensive wall, sweeper, list goes on. It's extremely difficult to switch into consituring it can either knock off or u-turn out to cripple/gain momentum and none of his checks/counter can safely switch in. He checks if not counters a rediculous ammount of pokemon including most of the new megas. His typing is excellant, and with intimidate he's much more efficent than gliscor in every role. The only thing he lacks is reliable recovery.

I'm on board with Lando-T for S rank

 

[Aurious]

Why lando-t for s maybe in xy but its max a+ (probably a) in the current state of oras.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I'm personally of the opinion for Mew to A. In the role of a stallbreaker, it's simultaneously outclassed and countered by Sableye, who has better defensive typing, shares the recovery options, Magic Bounce prevents it from being Taunted, can serve as a Win-condition with a CM set, and still offers hazard control, arguably better in the hands of a skilled player since Sableye beats many of the common SR users and stops them from being laid in the first place, whereas Mew has to Defog them and sacrifice your own hazards, on top of eating Momentum if its in front of a Fire Type. With the influx of new and fast Megas, Mew becomes set-up fodder for any choosing to run Substitute, which is dangerous in what's becoming a more offensive Metagame. Of the new Megas, it presents Sub or Set-up opportunities to
- Gallade
- Salamence (but then what doesn't)
- Lopunny (Who can pass the intact Sub to a teammate to set-up if it wants)
- Sceptile (0 Atk Mew Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sceptile: 59-70 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO)
- Resttalk Slowbro (Crobro especially)

I already felt like Mew had a problem with being deadweight against Offense, and with a number of new Megas that can use it for set-up on top of it being outclassed, I'm not sure how well it can fit in. Granted, that enormous movepool gives Mew adaptability, but in its Stallbreaker or Hazard control roles, it's past its prime.

I also want to throw in my 2 cents on Salamence. Even if the games aren't out, we have a ladder for it, and people are clearly of the opinion that it is suspect worthy at least. If not a quick ban, I think the existence of a ladder means we have the means to look into suspecting it by now. I feel it's even more unhealthy to the Meta game than Mega Mawile or Mega Lucario were in XY, and I don't seem to be the only one worried over it. It's skewing the Meta Game to the point that mons like Mega Venusaur are being suggested for drops to B or C (maybe it should drop, but going that low from A/A+?).

Everything else you said is valid but in no way Mew is Restalk Slowbro fodder, it is quite the contrary if anything else. Will-o-Wisp hinders its staying power and Taunt prevents it from resting or boosting. If Mega Slowbro manages to burn it with Scald it will fire back with Synchronize, too.

 

[pika pal]

Everything else you said is valid but in no way Mew is Restalk Slowbro fodder, it is quite the contrary if anything else. Will-o-Wisp hinders its staying power and Taunt prevents it from resting or boosting. If Mega Slowbro manages to burn it with Scald it will fire back with Synchronize, too.

I guess I did fail to specify, but I was thinking a bit in terms of Pokemon that could use either set (Stallbreaker or Hazard Control). I understood most Mews to run
- Softboiled
- WoW
- Knock Off
- Taunt/Defog
Depending on the set. I made the Resttalk Slowbro comment with the Hazard controller in mind, which would not be able to Taunt it and left it free to get as many as 3 boosts before it would NEED to rest.

 

[Wargreymon]

Why lando-t for s maybe in xy but its max a+ (probably a) in the current state of oras.

How? The scarf set arguably got even better with its ability to check powerful new threats like mega beedrill, metagross, altaria, and diancie.
If you don't agree with S rank that's totally fine, but you can't seriously say that landorus-t is worse in ORAS.

 

[Max Carvalho]

I don't know if someone already mentioned it but what has Mega Pinsir to offer over Mega Salamence? Priority? I mean Mega Salamence has much more than just one and obvious sets, it has virtually no counters, better BST, better typing, movepool and then Dragon Dance. Not like Pinsir isn't gonna be A+ after mence obvious ban anyway, but if we are doing this with Mega Salamence I think Pinsir should drop to A- or A if I am asking too much. Pinsir does have +10 Attack over Mence and Quick Attack, but that's all about it. EDIT: Not to mention it doesn't get wrecked by TalonBird.

 

[heritage]

Why lando-t for s maybe in xy but its max a+ (probably a) in the current state of oras.

There is literally no reason for it to stay in A+. The only thing you can comment on is the Ice weakness. Seriously, it should have gotten S a long time ago. You're not countering any argument.
-The Scarf set is fantastic for scouting and revenge killing.
-Double Dance is a fantastic sweeper.
-It's one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the game.
-It has an amazing typing.
Do I have to say anything else? Really everyone else has already said what I was going to say.

 

[Flarowak]

I don't know if someone already mentioned it but what has Mega Pinsir to offer over Mega Salamence? Priority? I mean Mega Salamence has much more than just one and obvious sets, it has virtually no counters, better BST, better typing, movepool and then Dragon Dance. Not like Pinsir isn't gonna be A+ after mence obvious ban anyway, but if we are doing this with Mega Salamence I think Pinsir should drop to A- or A if I am asking too much. Pinsir does have +10 Attack over Mence and Quick Attack, but that's all about it.

It's hard to pick any sweeper over mence atm except maybe zard x still tbh. Also, because pinsir has access to sd+quick attack it does give him something over mence. He already has higher attack, and with sd gets even more power than mence after a setup. It isnt close to the same speed tier but quick attack can make up for it 'cause it hits pretty hard for priority.

 

[56k]

I want to join in on the gallade hate. It has "average" speed at this point, stabs that are truthfully just not problematic considering all the bulky flying/ghosts/fairies/psychics, and he dies easily. And you have to sacrifice your mega slot in lieu of, say, pinsir, sceptile, or metagross. Whatever role that gallade particularly excels at can be emulated well by pokemon such as terrakion and greninja and loppunny and hell even mienshao.

 

[Kurona]

Whatever role that gallade particularly excels at can be emulated well by pokemon such as... greninja

... the other three make some sort of sense (except lopunny still uses up your mega slot and doesn't have as much power), but Greninja's going to take quite the bit of explaining, if you would?

 

[Gloating]

Mega Salamence should honestly be higher than S maybe SS (super saiyan tier). There's no reason to use another Mega unless you want to be different. It's just that good. All of it's sets are amazing. If you go Specially Defensive DD/Refresh/Frustation/Roost you can 6-0 a lot of teams even if they have things like Porygon2. Mega Salamence is about to die? Heal Wish it back to life and restart the rampage all over again. A lot of the time I found myself just taking a Life Orb Ice Shard from Mamo/Weavile taking 80% off, killing them and then just Heal Wish it back to health later. This thing puts in work no matter what. Also breaks down teams for others like Excadrill to sweep. Also found myself staying in on Mega Sceptile taking a Dragon Pulse even after rocks, killing it and bringing it back later. Also against stall teams, all they can really do is try to status it and phase it out so if it's your last Pokemon it just sweeps.

 

[SketchUp]

I want to join in on the gallade hate. It has "average" speed at this point

It doesn't have average speed. Indeed, there are more pokemon that have an amazing speed tier like Gallade has. Talonflame, Greninja, M-Metagross, Latios, Scarf Lando-T are all common pokémons that outspeed or speed tie with it. 110 speed is good, it isn't awesome like it was in past gens, but it is still good.

stabs that are truthfully just not problematic considering all the bulky flying/ghosts/fairies/psychics.

Flying types don't want to take a zen headbutt except your name is Skarmory or when you can switch in with something on the Close Combat and outspeed Gallade (M-Pinsir Quick attack, Talonflame, Scarfers)
There are like 2 ghosts in OU: Gengar and Sableye. Sableye is indeed a big threat for M-Gallade, but Gengar doesn't want to take a Knock Off or Zen Headbutt. Thanks to Gallade's special bulk it can live a Shadow Ball in case it loses the speed tie
Psychics are indeed a problem, but the only psychic types that want to take a +2 Knock Off are M-Gardevoir and Slowbro

and he dies easily.

While 68/95/115 is not amazing, it is pretty good for a pokémon with 165 attack and 110 speed. It has enough bulk to live Gengar's Shadow Ball, any move of Greninja and it has a chance to even live Latios' Draco Meteor. All 3 will be KOd by Gallade. On the physical side, you can still live moves like Earthquake from Lando-T (you won't be doing to much back tho) and Scizor's banded U-Turn. Other mega's you mentioned like M-Lopunny and M-Sceptile, won't be living such attacks

Whatever role that gallade particularly excels at can be emulated well by pokemon such as terrakion and greninja and loppunny and hell even mienshao.

Mienshao has poor bulk and it can't live any hit, where M-Gallade can actually (see calcs above)
Terrakion hits harder than M-Gallade if it holds a Life Orb and both takes hits pretty well (they take around the same damage from most moves) But Terrakion's worse typing + Life Orb recoil makes it a lot easier to wear down.

TL;DR Did you click the Mega Evolution button?

 

[56k]

252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: (128.7 - 152.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: (94.4 - 111.4%)


252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: (35.4 - 41.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 125-148 (32.8 - 38.8%)


That's only an emulation. Gallade of course pulls off fighting/psychic better than greninja, but, greninja does it very well himself, and is faster. However, greninja would probably only use at most one of those moves anyway because psychic/fighting isn't great coverage to begin with and only one of them could be fully EV'd.



Edit for clarification: What I mean to say is, whatever it is that you want to use Gallade for, you could choose a different pokemon to get many of the same benefits/niches that Gallade has. And then you can choose a different mega on top.

 

[Kurona]

It doesn't have average speed. Indeed, there are more pokemon that have an amazing speed tier like Gallade has. Talonflame, Greninja, M-Metagross, Latios, Scarf Lando-T are all common pokémons that outspeed or speed tie with it. 110 speed is good, it isn't awesome like it was in past gens, but it is still good.


Flying types don't want to take a zen headbutt except your name is Skarmory or when you can switch in with something on the Close Combat and outspeed Gallade (M-Pinsir Quick attack, Talonflame, Scarfers)
There are like 2 ghosts in OU: Gengar and Sableye. Sableye is indeed a big threat for M-Gallade, but Gengar doesn't want to take a Knock Off or Zen Headbutt. Thanks to Gallade's special bulk it can live a Shadow Ball in case it loses the speed tie
Psychics are indeed a problem, but the only psychic types that want to take a +2 Knock Off are M-Gardevoir and Slowbro


While 68/95/115 is not amazing, it is pretty good for a pokémon with 165 attack and 110 speed. It has enough bulk to live Gengar's Shadow Ball, any move of Greninja and it has a chance to even live Latios' Draco Meteor. All 3 will be KOd by Gallade. On the physical side, you can still live moves like Earthquake from Lando-T (you won't be doing to much back tho) and Scizor's banded U-Turn. Other mega's you mentioned like M-Lopunny and M-Sceptile, won't be living such attacks


Mienshao has poor bulk and it can't live any hit, where M-Gallade can actually (see calcs above)
Terrakion hits harder than M-Gallade if it holds a Life Orb and both takes hits pretty well (they take around the same damage from most moves) But Terrakion's worse typing + Life Orb recoil makes it a lot easier to wear down.

TL;DR Did you click the Mega Evolution button?

I should also add that Mega Gallade is at least able to speed tie with some of the new Megas, Latis and Gengar while Terrakion is just slower than them unless scarf.

 

[Albacore]

252 Atk 252 SpA Greninja... moving on

I don't think you understand the point of Mega-Gallade. It is, first and foremost, a setup wallbreaker whose speed and decent bulk enables it to preform well against offensive teams too. It's not comparable to Greninja because Greninja a) can't set up b) has no bulk and c) is not nearly as effective against balanced/stall teams (I know MSableye is on like every stall team atm, but Greninja is probably not as good vs that archetype either because most stall teams I've seen run Tetntacruel or Empoleon which are pretty hard stops to it and even take on the Spikes set very well). Terrakion's worse typing gives it far fewer opportunities to set up and Life Orb wears it down pretty easily, it also has no chance at all vs Latis. Lopunny is frail and quite frankly really easy to wall. Not even gonna mention Mienshao lol, it couldn't SD if its life depended on it.

What makes Gallade such a threat is the combination of power, bulk, speed, and ability to clean weakened/slower teams thanks to SD. It doesn't excel in any of these areas but it is still very solid in all of them, which is what makes it an all-around excellent Pokemon, and one which consistently preforms against most teams (I would say all but one again, Mega-Sableye exists). You won't find many Pokemon which can preform in so many areas at once.

 

[56k]

I will admit that gallade's bulk does allow him to deceptively survive some strong hits, but I think that he is too firmly checked by very common things like flying spam, latis, scarfers, and priority -- things that are very common in OU to deal with all kinds of other S/A+ pokemon that just happen to conveniently deal with gallade as well. He has his own set of pokemon that he can set up on and at +2 he's definitely strong, but, taking out everything that could potentially stop him at +2 and meanwhile getting the boost in the first place is no easy task. Most of the time will be just hit-and-running, and it would be very lucky to have a match to actually get a boost and still be healthy/unstatused. So, if almost all of the time is spent just firing a STAB then switching out, then he is not special in that regard, which is why I listed a few pokemon that can do that very similarly to gallade. I think his ability to set up is overstated, and his ability to fire off a single strong attack is rivaled.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

252 Atk Gallade-Mega Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: (128.7 - 152.2%)
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: (94.4 - 111.4%)


252 Atk Gallade-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: (35.4 - 41.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 125-148 (32.8 - 38.8%)


That's only an emulation. Gallade of course pulls off fighting/psychic better than greninja, but, greninja does it very well himself, and is faster. However, greninja would probably only use at most one of those moves anyway because psychic/fighting isn't great coverage to begin with and only one of them could be fully EV'd.



Edit for clarification: What I mean to say is, whatever it is that you want to use Gallade for, you could choose a different pokemon to get many of the same benefits/niches that Gallade has. And then you can choose a different mega on top.

Greninja can't have 252 atk/252 satk/252 spe at the time sime. Greninja has a good special Psychic attack and a decent Fighting physical attack, but not both on the same side. I don't know what spreads people use on mixed Greninja but 40 atk EVs are needed for guaranteed OHKO with Gunk Shot on Azumarill, so I'll use that.

Low Kick maxes at 120 BP, but very rarely will you vs. targets heavy enough for it to reach this number. Even against these targets, with 40 atk EV's Greninja is doing far less damage than Gallade (~33% diff.)

Beyond 'they can hit stuff with Fighting and Psychic attacks' there's virtually no similarities between Greninja and Mega Gallade. I don't exactly know what you mean by "its roles can be emulated by other pokemon" but so far as I know, there's no other good Swords Dancer at 110 or above base speed that can hit nearly as hard as Gallade except mega lucario but well you know. SD also isn't the only thing it can do, DBond+3 attacks is pretty neat, too.

I will admit that gallade's bulk does allow him to deceptively survive some strong hits, but I think that he is too firmly checked by very common things like flying spam, latis, scarfers, and priority -- things that are very common in OU to deal with all kinds of other S/A+ pokemon that just happen to conveniently deal with gallade as well. He has his own set of pokemon that he can set up on and at +2 he's definitely strong, but, taking out everything that could potentially stop him at +2 and meanwhile getting the boost in the first place is no easy task. Most of the time will be just hit-and-running, and it would be very lucky to have a match to actually get a boost and still be healthy/unstatused. So, if almost all of the time is spent just firing a STAB then switching out, then he is not special in that regard, which is why I listed a few pokemon that can do that very similarly to gallade. I think his ability to set up is overstated, and his ability to fire off a single strong attack is rivaled.

I'm just gonna ask you right now if you've actually used him.

 

[56k]

No, I've only ever played against it. But that's why I decided to agree with the other guy who doubted him as A+ rank, because I pretty much feel relieved when I see it in team preview (because I haven't deviated much from mega slowbro at all)

 

[Kurona]

No, I've only ever played against it. But that's why I decided to agree with the other guy who doubted him as A+ rank, because I pretty much feel relieved when I see it in team preview (because I haven't deviated much from mega slowbro at all)

I'd feel relieved to see any other Mega than Salamence in team preview right now

 

[Srn]

I'm just gonna ask you right now if you've actually used him.

Lol what he's said is exactly correct, and this is coming from the guy (me) who has indeed extensively used mega gallade (its the first one i used lol).
Its ability to fire off a single attack is overstated, its bulk is overestimated, its speedtier isn't as relevant as it used to be, its ability is horseshit, and its defensive typing blows.
We haven't even mentioned how you need to find a place and time to safely mega evolve because you're jumping all the way down from 80.

Ultimately, if we go by your train of thought Albacore , we assume that because mega gallade is bulky, it is good against offensive teams too.
Fact is, its not as bulky as you'd like it to be. It lacks reliable recovery, it lacks great resists, it lacks a great defensive ability (before or after mevo), and to top it off it lacks good priority. Ultimately, you can take ONE hit against offense, and you usually want to use that one hit to set up. Unfortunately, since without priority and in a less than ideal speed tier, even after you set up you'll never really sweep a competent offense team being handled by a player with actual brains. Sure, it looks pretty bulky on paper, and that's what hyped me up too! But ultimately in practice its reduced to a hit-and-run playstyle, only taking a hit when the game depends on it.

So now that we've covered its bulk, lets move onto its actual speed, and prowess against offense. Basically, its not as good as you make it sound. It takes one hit perhaps, and can use that turn to blow holes with CC or set up against offense which is usually fruitless on its own. Unfortunately, there are many many more relevant mons that have entered the 110 speed tier, such as mega diancie and mega metagross, all of which have the capacity to revenge kill you, forcing you to rely on a speed tie to get past them (lets be real sneak ain't doing shit to metagross lmao). Sure, lati@s often run hp fire which means you win against them, but then you have to take into account their scarfed forms are catching on too. Other scarved mons like keldeo are also starting to get some attention, and ultimately offense has gotten faster. now u have mega gallade, a mon that can take a hit and hit back at best, lacks priority, has many weaknesses, and resists zero relevant priority moves bar mach. its matchup against offense is REALLY overstated.

Finally, its matchup against stall kinda blows then the best kind of stall these days always carries your hard counter. Lol have fun. Even megas that fit on bulky offense teams, like mega slowbro and mega altaria, do a pretty good job and giving mega gallade a hard time.

I probably said it before but lack of bulk+priority+useful ability leaves it less useful against offense than one would desire and the omnipotence of your hard counter on stall teams leaves it pretty subpar there too. Its an A+ mon, not S.

No, I've only ever played against it. But that's why I decided to agree with the other guy who doubted him as A+ rank, because I pretty much feel relieved when I see it in team preview (because I haven't deviated much from mega slowbro at all)

that's probably me :3