Ladder Anything Goes

[Pyritie]

And AG is not meant to simulate the actual cartridge games. AG is intended to be a game without any clauses limiting your methods of victory.

So, in other words, like the actual cartridge games?

For what its worth, the hour time limit is based on a game where move animations take a lot longer to complete. The number that you could take within an hour on PS would be far more than the number of turns you could do in cartridge. As such, even if PS was cartridge accurate on this, you would have far, far less than a real life hour before your timer ran out.

Then add a timer that uses a more appropriate time, like 45 minutes or something.

If it is impossible to replicate a battle on cartridge then it should not be allowed. As much as people hated team preview when gen 5 rolled around, it was enforced in every battle because there's literally no way around it on the carts. We've always done that with unreleased items, abilities, moves, and pokemon, so why is the timer an exception? Just because of "muh stall"?

 

[Non-Guest 31415]

So, in other words, like the actual cartridge games?



Then add a timer that uses a more appropriate time, like 45 minutes or something.

If it is impossible to replicate a battle on cartridge then it should not be allowed. As much as people hated team preview when gen 5 rolled around, it was enforced in every battle because there's literally no way around it on the carts. We've always done that with unreleased items, abilities, moves, and pokemon, so why is the timer an exception? Just because of "muh stall"?

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that adding an hour-long timer is a bad idea. What people are saying is that we aren't getting rid of an anti-trolling measure to achieve a goal that never even existed in the first place. The reason AG exists is to let people use Mega Rayquaza, and they decided if they were going to do that, they might as well unban a bunch of other stuff that makes battles crazy as well. It's not simulating cartridge play, it's not trying to simulate cartridge play, it's just unbanning a bunch of stuff to let people use it in an official Showdown/Smogon format.

 

[TFL]

... What people are saying is that we aren't getting rid of an anti-trolling measure to achieve a goal that never even existed in the first place. The reason AG exists is to let people use Mega Rayquaza, and they decided if they were going to do that, they might as well unban a bunch of other stuff that makes battles crazy as well. It's not simulating cartridge play, it's not trying to simulate cartridge play, it's just unbanning a bunch of stuff to let people use it in an official Showdown/Smogon format.

The whole point of Pokemon battle simulators is to accurately simulate cartridge play, otherwise, we are not really playing Pokemon.

What makes it an "official Showdown/Smogon format", because it's on Showdown and was given a name by Smogon? When people play on Wifi, it's essentially AG. Rules were made up by the community to balance out the game. AG is anything but balanced.

 

[(makeup)]

I made someone using 4x SwagPlay Klefki ragequit http://spo.ink/klefki

 

[qways]

I just want to bring up that quagsire is really good, it counters swagplay klefki, ekiller and has haze for baton pass chains, so dont use numel lol.

 

[chuavechito]

I have tested A LOT of stuff vs Klefki. Tbh I think I have found the best pokemon vs it due him been really good vs Klefki while been quite usefull vs non-Klefki (most pokemons I tested were either underwhelming vs Klefki or crap vs non-Klefki).

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed
- Cosmic Power
- Recover

His speed and bulk lets him set up even on MegaRay and PrimalGroudon. I usually leave him as my 6th pokemon when Im facing people who dont play Klefki which removes Roar as a counter for this set. As result, he is 10 times more usefull than any other Klefki counter I have tested so far.

 

[Phione]

I use a full BP team with 5 Smeargles and M-Mewtwo-Y as a final sweeper. First Smeargle Spores, Spiderwebs and Subs, passes to one who Minimizes and Cosmic Powers a little, passes to one who Ingrains, Seeds, and Aqua Rings, then passes to one who Tail Glows and Rock Polishes, and HE passes to one that puts the foe to sleep again, Swaggers them and finally passes to Mewtwo who wrecks house.

 

[Perseu]

I was reading the arguments in favor of the Endless battle permission and... Well, 1 hour time limit? Are you serious?

So, lets say I bring a wallbreaker and smash one of your mons, taking like 60%~ of its health. Now you send a defensive mon, and Now I am sure: I won; I'll just send the endless battler and stall your patience till the clock ends. The score is 0x0, but you have a 30%~ mon in your party, and its done? Well, it doesnt seem to be nice to me. Shittier than 6 klefki.

 

[TFL]

I was reading the arguments in favor of the Endless battle permission and... Well, 1 hour time limit? Are you serious?

A one hour time limit in game would translate to something like 40 minutes on Showdown.

So, lets say I bring a wallbreaker and smash one of your mons, taking like 60%~ of its health. Now you send a defensive mon, and Now I am sure: I won; I'll just send the endless battler and stall your patience till the clock ends. The score is 0x0, but you have a 30%~ mon in your party, and its done? Well, it doesnt seem to be nice to me. Shittier than 6 klefki.

I'm just going to go ahead and explain how this works. Lets pretend you lead off with your Wall Breaker and you happen to make me switch to a Defensive Mon that takes 60% (lets also say said Mon is faster than yours, because why else would you be switching out instead of going for the kill). You then switch out to your Endless Battle Mon as I use Recover. Lets say you have Slowbro and use Block to trap me. But guess what? I switch to my counter: Yveltal, Darkceus, Darkrai, Ghostceus, Primal Kyogre, etc. Now look at that, you just gave me a free switch to something that not only wrecks your Slowbro, but is a potential threat to your team as well.

Every other person is against this, because they don't want to wind up trapped for a good half hour or whatever, but that's hardly an argument when they're at fault for it happening to them.

 

[chuavechito]

I have been testing this. I love it tbh. Its so much fun:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-189941496

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-189856060

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-189877974

Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Whirlwind
- Switcheroo
- Destiny Bond

Liepard @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 16 HP / 228 Def / 160 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Assist (aka Priority Spore)
- Substitute

And 4 Dittos (2 Scarf, 1 Leftovers and 1 Focus Sash)

 

[preserve]

The whole point of Pokemon battle simulators is to accurately simulate cartridge play, otherwise, we are not really playing Pokemon.

What makes it an "official Showdown/Smogon format", because it's on Showdown and was given a name by Smogon? When people play on Wifi, it's essentially AG. Rules were made up by the community to balance out the game. AG is anything but balanced.

Then we should implement species clause and possibly item clause.

 

[Vert]

Baton Pass is one of the most dominating playstyles in the ladder at the moment. Extreme Killer SPAM needs to be prepared for as well. SwagPlay is ridiculous and is completely luck-based and it is not a playstyle that is viable.

Also, I don't care about Endless Battle Clause, but I prefer it staying because I am not wasting an hour on my battles.

 

[2MN]

lugia is probably the best counter-pokemon in the entirety of AG, tbh. on top of ruining the days of BP, he's also just really good at stalling things out, because with a set like twave/roost/sub/whirlwind (replace tw for toxic if needed) there's very few pokemon you don't, at the very least, heavily gimp. mix and match with a spikes/rocks user for max fun

also, idk how many fire-types pop up in the top ladder, but an occa berry avalugg does an incredible amount of work for me once I get rid of any special attackers:

252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Occa Berry Avalugg: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 96.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO*
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Occa Berry Avalugg: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Occa Berry Avalugg: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 85.4% chance to 3HKO

*smogon's dmg calc doesn't have dragon ascent, or m-ray for that matter, so I tossed in stats manually? also for contrast, assuming delta stream is up, avalanche 2HKOs him

 

[Zowayix]

1. If it is possible or easily achievable to impose an auto-lose condition or disable certain options or commands in-game whenever certain requirements are met, then I believe that using Heal Pulse/Pain Split on a Struggling opponent should be that requirement. I am not aware of any way to win the game by healing a Pokemon that will die by itself in 4-5 turns, and thus I believe that any such situation can only be created with malicious intent.

To just give you an example of how convoluted some Endless Battle strategies can get:

1) In addition to Recycling your own Leppa Berries, Fling them onto an opponent as well, if they're a defensive mon that can't damage you enough. Now they have infinite PP as well as you. No Struggle required, nor Heal Pulse/Pain Split/a method of healing the opponent.
2) Leppa Berry + Recycle/Harvest banned? No problem! Get 2 Shadow Tag Gothorita/Gothitelle, one with a Leppa Berry and the other with Recycle. Have both know Trick, and use the trapped opponent as a Trick proxy to pass the Leppa Berry from the non-Recycle user to the Recycle user.

----------
Other question: Not too familiar with Gen VI cartridge battles, but is it at all possible to battle without a time limit (such as in-person link battles)? If so, I would be against a time limit clause for reasons others have mentioned, but if not, I would be for a time limit clause solely to more precisely emulate cartridge play.

 

[Kochi3]

It's really ironic when someone with 6 swagplay klefkis complains about RNG

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-190881157

 

[SilverAlex]

I use what I expected to be an antimeta team, almost got destroyed by a battom passing team due repeated mistakes but clafeable proved, once again, to be the MVP, winning me a battle I had every right to loose:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-191069892

Clefable has no EVs on defense, and still took those dragon's ascendancy as a macho.
I was running him as:
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Sleep Talk
- Thunder Wave

He was meant to be my anti dakrai / anti set up pokes. I wanted to include a perish song user or someone with a sure shot move, but Im not sure what to use and on which slot.

My lugia tanks a normal M-Ray or a Sword dancer one if he Sword Dances on the change, but besides Ditto revenging on him, or klefki haxing it, I dont know what else to do.

Also I wanna use something else for the 6 kleki teams, besides my own klefki with evs on speed

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Endless Battle Clause should stay in Anything Goes. exist a difference between Endless Battle Clause and other uncompetitive clauses.

Imagine if the OU tier doesn't have the Evasion Clause nor the more recent Baton pass complex clause .


First of all, every team that uses Evasion as a strategy wants to win the match by making the opponent's moves miss against them.

Second, not every Pokemon is viable with Double Team. For example, Greninja si unviable with Double Team because it's so frail. Also, many pokemon don't have place for a boosting move that only allows a 25% chance of missing an attack and they will prefer (specially by good players) more realiable moves to wins.

Actuaslly there are three types of cases (in my head) where Evasion could be a terror.

Case 1:
Baton Pass teams. The worst of the cases, because they only will have Evasion boosts, but also they'll have boosts in defensive stats, making the chance of miss actually higher
Set example:
Scolipede @ Mental Herb
EV: 248/252 HP, 252 Spe, 4/8 SpD
Ability: Speed Boost Nature: Jolly
-Double Team
-Iron Defense
-Protect
-Baton Pass

alongside things like

Sylveon Leftovers
EV: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpA
Ability: Pixilate (if Hyper Voice)/Cute Charm
-Calm Mind
-Double Team
-Hyper Voice/Stored Power
-Wish/Stored Power

Case 2: Already strong Pokemon that are bulky that could have evasion moves. One of the most hated possible cases would be:
Garchomp @Leftovers/Yache Berry
EV: 4 HP; 252 Atk, 252 Spe
Ability: sand veil Nature: Jolly/Adamant
-Double team
-Substitute/Swords Dance
-Outrage/Dragon Claw
-Earthquake

Case 3: Bulky Pokemon with the move Minimize. Minimize not only allows to boost evasion, but starting in Gen V it boosts evasion by 2 stages.
Clefable @ Leftovers
EV: 252 HP 252 SpA 4 Spe
Ability: Unaware (ja)/Magic Guard Nature: Modest
-Calm Mind
-Minimize
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower

Evasion is a legitimate clause that has a clear intention of winning the game by making the opponent miss often. Teams that use EVasion has to add more usual legal OU startegies (or a full BP chain) to realistically win a match (even though it depends on the RNG).

Not only that, but Evasion has it's check and counters.
-Haze, Roar, Whirlwind. Moves that delete allt he evasion boosts (both by the EVasion booster switching out or by delelting all the boosts). Those moves never miss in Gen VI.
-Moves that have 101% accuracy (never miss even with Double Team boosts). Those moves are Disarming Voice (40 BP), Aerial Ace, Shock Wave, Faint Attack, Swift, Magnet Bomb, Magical Leaf Vital Throw (70 BP), Aura Sphere (80 BP). If no listed BP, all fo these moves have 60 BP even though the moves are weak, they are stronger than priority moves (usually 40 BP)
Taunt (better if faster). Even though the moves can miss, if the user hasn't ended the Double Team spam yet they were unable to use Double Team more.
-Sheer Power. 75/60% of being hit and being OHKO'ed by a streong move is a serious matter that forces the double Team user to switch.
-Hazards. Hazards ignores Evasion boosts.
-Poison-types using Toxic. Evades Evasion boosts.

In general, if Evasion was legal in OU, the metagame would be more defensive that is right now. almost everything will use near 100% accuracy moves (no more Fire Blast or Hydro Pump), never-miss moves will be a necessity on the team like priority is now (and because the bulkier metagame, it can outclass priority itself)*.

Many of the standard startegies in the OU metagame will still work if EVasion is allowed. The difference is that they will miss more often.

Unlike Evasion Clause, Endless Battle Clause's strategy is to not win the game at all and isrupt a battle completely forcing either user to forfeit which is not fun at all. Users of sets like this:
Slowbro (the infamous Funbro) @ Leppa Berry
EV: 252 HP 252 SpD
-Slack Off
-Recycle
-Block
-Heal Pulse

don't have actual intention of winning. If the user can't 2HKO the Slowbro is very likely that the opponent will have to forfeit, which is not fun at game. Also, this strategy will don't have a solution apart of the competence of the Funbro users, unlike Evasion

 

[jbtc10]

As I see it, endless battle clause isn't needed or desirable at all in AG. How on earth are you even going to pull that strategy off when the tier is dominated by Baton Pass, Swagplay and monstrous offensive teams that are spamming Mega Rayquazza and E-Killers? If you actually manage to get the endless loop going, you damn well deserve the win, and that's only going to happen if your opponent gets bored before you do. The strategy was never effective in ubers, and that's only going to be more true of AG, so the clause is already redundant anyway and it wouldn't affect the meta one iota if it were lifted. Get rid of it imo.

 

[jtal2000]

So I've seen a couple people with answers to the 6 key team.
1) Magic bouncers (MSableye MDiancie). HOWEVER many klefki teams have 2 running persim+play rough, which can be a threat (or a steel move for MDiancie)
2) The 1-3 Numel counter. This gets easily countered by 6 klefki a without HP Water, foul play 2hkos a +2 Numel, so 2 klefki can take on 1 Numel, leaving you with a loss of 1 key/numel, and 1 key can win the game.
3) 6 Numels. While this works, it loses to swag play teams with 1-2 cleaners (or hp water).

While 6 keys can be countered, it can be very hard depending on their sets.

 

[Cinna The Poet]

6 Moody Bidoofs. ALl Focus Sashed, all with one slightly different moveset. I have won many battles with this. No joke. For example:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-192893615

 

[ApplepieFTW]

well I doubt that they are going to allow something that completely kills the goal of the game: winning. EB clause isn't something that enhances competition, it's just a much needed clause that prevents games, even if it only happens 1/10000 battles, from being completely meaningless. if anything, they should add a 1 hour limit just like it is in-game.

 

[Aberforth]

I'd be against the hour time limit if it was to extend to any other tier but AG. Stall is a very valid playstyle that can sometimes take an hour or more to be effective, but it is aiming to win the game at the very least.

 

[El33t]

Baton Pass is one of the most dominating playstyles in the ladder at the moment. Extreme Killer SPAM needs to be prepared for as well. SwagPlay is ridiculous and is completely luck-based and it is not a playstyle that is viable.

Also, I don't care about Endless Battle Clause, but I prefer it staying because I am not wasting an hour on my battles.

That's why I have a Perish Song Arceus on my team just to deal with BP. And SwagPlay might not be viable but it has a high chance of messing with me that I carry Safeguard just for it.

I gotta say AG is fun. I'm not a good OU player but I actually got to 1350ish with a suboptimal team I made in 5 minutes.

 

[Pyritie]

I'd be against the hour time limit if it was to extend to any other tier but AG. Stall is a very valid playstyle that can sometimes take an hour or more to be effective, but it is aiming to win the game at the very least.

If it is impossible to reproduce a game on the cartridge, it should not be allowed on standard tiers. There is no way to play a battle on cart that goes over the hour time limit.

 

[Pyritie]

But we are not playing on the cartridge, we are playing on an internet service provider who add to the content of the cartridges, with the aim of making each pokemon usable in at least one tier each, and who are also capable of making it so that all styles of play are viable. By imposing a one hour time limit, you would prevent stall from being nearly as viable. I don't personally like stall, but it is a very effective playstyle, and can sometimes take over an hour. If you don't like the fact that PS has no time limit per match, don't play on PS. There is a timer per move available as it is, and as long as that remains, I can see no reason to add a total time limit, because if the hour long time limit was to be used, then the player playing against stall might very well take much more time than is required, specifically to pressure the stall team into making mistakes or losing because they are lower in health at that point. This would not be the case in the current system, and there is no good reason to add something that would favour one style of play over another by the nature of the game.

The hour long time limit in the cartridges is something that I vehemently disagree with installing on showdown. We have a timer system that works very well as it stands. Lets not change something that is fair to all styles of play to one that is unfair against certain styles more than others.

Except staying true to the cartridge is something smogon official metas have always done. When gen 5 rolled around and forced team preview on everyone, did smogon say "we're not going to implement team preview because it would kill the entire lead metagame"? No, they sucked it up and went with what the cart did. Even in hackmons, where you've got all sorts of bonkers stuff going on - they recently(ish) had to enforce a strict 510 EV limit on everything because the game prevents you from battling with pokemon with more than 510 EVs.

Why should Anything Goes be any different, when it's effectively a "PSS passersby no restrictions singles" simulator?