Actually, you really do need to take out Mence in one shot. If you can't, it will proceed to kill your Ice Beam user, and possibly the rest of your team after that. Stealth Rock is also not the most common thing in the fast-paced Doubles metagame, unless you're running a stally team, which in and of itself is not very common either. Moreover, the sight of Pixilate Quick Attack on any Sylveon makes me cringe. It's very gimmicky and situational, and Sylvy has better attacks to be using anyways, like HP Ground for Heatran, or Psyshock for Amoonguss. Also, while field effects are admittedly a great way to deal with Mega Mence, "just use Trick Room or Rain" isn't really a legit reason to keep Mence. Finally, most Fairies are frail as fuck, and why are you using Heatran on a rain team? Ferrothorn is the better SR user on a rain team if you absolutely need hazards, and Tran gets wrecked if Mence is carrying Earthquake, which it carries very often.Didn't really see a reason to ban Salamence. Fairies are pretty common to deal with dragons. Although ice types (from my experience) are pretty awful, almost every water type carries an ice move. You need a lot of investment to ohko 4/0 mence with ice beam, (275 Special attack) but you don't really need to take it out in one shot.
My team was built to handle it pretty well, but its not like it was intentionally catered to specifically beat it. It was a rain team featuring sylveon and heatran. Heatran had rocks and sylveon had pixelate quick attack so with the chip damage it was tough for salamence to survive long. Only swampert (and to an extent, sylveon) cared about intimidate on my squad so landorus/mence really lost a lot of utility.
i feel like Mence does a lot better against "fair teams". I was using rain which has strong match ups against a lot of other teams. And it has like 3 ice attacks to deal with mence anyway. like with damp rock you can't stall out rain turns as effectively with protect like you could against trick room. Teams featuring just solid mons like shaymin/kanga/land/thund might struggle with salamence a bit more than teams with a theme like rain/sun/trick room.
Ive heard/read this from a few people now. While true, redirection aids salamence greatly, if we apply the idea of 'redirection breaks salamence' to other pokes, kanga would be banned because it gets a free PuP and wins. I dont think that can be used as an argument for banning it.I believe the easiest way to 'break' Salamence is to run it with a Pokemon which can redirect moves as this enables Salamence to be able to use moves like Dragon Dance or Substitute (or both) with ease. Once Salamence has reached this state, it can easily pick off two or three mons.
How salamence preforms in the meta as opposed to azumarill is not valid to this at all. The last post on this thread literally said the exact same thing you just did in a sentence.One argument against banning Mega Salamence is that redirection+powerful sweeper has always been a strong strategy. However, Salamence is better than things like Azumarill and Kangaskhan for a couple of reasons:
1. Salamence's speed: 120 Base Speed is already fast but Mega Salamence can use Dragon Dance to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and most Choice Scarfers as well. Azumarill and Mega Kangaskhan need to rely on weak or unSTAB'd priority, repectively, which can easily be resisted by common Pokemon that outspeed them (Grass-types can hit Azumarill back with Giga Drain, Fighting-types resist Sucker Punch and kill Kangaskhan with a STAB move).
2. Salamence's bulk: 248 HP Mega Salamence is more than twice as physically bulky as 164 HP Azumarill (after Belly Drum and Sitrus), 50% more physically bulky than it, 40% more physically bulky than 4 HP Mega Kanga, and slightly more specially bulky than it. And that's not even considering Intimidate before it megas. Salamence is also the only one of the three with a reliable means of recovery.
3. Salamence's type: While Sala has 4 weakness including a double weakness, Rock is the only type that both resists Flying and hits Salamence SE. This means most Pokemon are either going to have to take a neutral +1 Return or have to use a non-STAB attack to kill Salamence. Grass and Poison Pokemon can resist both of Azumarill's STABs and fire back with a STAB SE attack from both of their types. Normal isn't that great of a type, anyway, even with Kangaskhan's good coverage options.
After playing 50+ games on each Doubles ladder, I can confidently say that Mega-Salamence is not over-centralizing and does not need to be banned.
1. If Mega-Salamence was over-centralizing, it would be the common choice for a player's Mega-Evolution, but it's not; Mega-Kangaskhan still rules Doubles. Neither the experienced players nor the lower ladder commonly use Mega-Salamence. It's as if there is no difference between the suspect ladder and the current ladder; that's how uncommon Mega-Salamence is.
2. Even if you were to come across a team with MegaMence, it isn't that hard to stop. For example, I can easily T-Wave with Prankster Thundurus to cripple it and allow my team to have the speed advantage. My sweepers will then proceed to take out Salamence for a smooth victory, GG. Tailwind is also a viable option if you want your whole team to have the speed advantage against the other mons along with Salamence (Suicune, Talonflame, etc.) Mega-Salamence's true strength is outspeeding its opponents and dealing a significant amount of damage, but once you take that away, it isn't that much of a threat. By the way, Jirachi + MegaMence leads can be shut down by Fake Out + Tailwind or T-Wave, just saying.
tl;dr - MegaMence is a strong mon, but by no means over-centralizing. Don't just ban stuff because you can't beat it; it's not even that hard to take out.
ayy lmao it's like condescending the other side will get you anywhere. +1 Salamence outspeeds a lot of threats at +2 (tailwind), so that part of your argument is moot. And people shouldn't lead with Jirachi / Mence. It's analogous to leading with a sweeper turn 1 in singles and 'hoping for a sweep.' Yes if it happens that's great but you woulda won anyways if you were to just win off of that. Forcing them into something that gives Salamence free turns, sacking it into them, and getting to work is much harder to stop. If Mence were to be broken, it's because of the extra teamslots you have in 6v6 over 4v4, allowing you to keep mence indefinitely until you force a good matchup and winning the game there. You still have to lead off with your anti-Salamence because you don't want them to get the better matchup turn 1 and wreck, but now you have to preserve your Thundurus or whatever you're using to check Mence out of turn 1 which further puts pressure on you.Don't just ban stuff because you can't beat it; it's not even that hard to take out.
I'll saySorry dude, but this post has some problems.
Technically true although it is a very strong indicator.First off, whether or not a Pokémon is used often means nothing about its viability.
yes it does. If there are a "decent" number (there isnt an exact value) of reliable counters (which there are) and they are viable in the metagame in ways besides countering mence than ofc it wouldn't be broken.Moreover, though the ways you listed are legitimate ways to beat Mega Mence, the fact that something has checks and counters doesn't mean it's not broken.
Bulky Ice users liek Suicune, Thundurus, and Shuca TTar are counters BECAUSE they can take hits from mence. "It isn't as easy to take down as you might think" it condescending as fuck, and mence is as-easy-to-take-down-as-you-might-think because EVing to OHKO mence is not large stretch for a lot of Pokemon.With Intimidate and some solid 95/130/90 bulk, it isn't as easy to take down as you might think. And no, just because most Ice Beam users OHKO it does not mean it should stay, as Mence can threaten them right back, reducing them to mere checks instead of counters.
This is the main problem I have with this post (and a lot of the other posts on here). Is this like the go-to-argument for the pro-ban side? I have seen "Well if you dont think its broken you clearly havent played good players or you yourself are shit" so many times (although I am paraphrasing here) and it just isn't true. The ladder isnt a complete cesspool of bumbling idiots when you actually climb a decent amount, and you can't simply write off people's arguements like this.If you think that Mega Mence shouldn't be banned, then your opponents were probably using it incorrectly.
Other then kyle's post, which was well put and laid out the facts quite well, you can't just compare this tier to ou at all. This is the farthest you can get from that and checks/counters as well as play styles aren't the same at all. Please at least use doubles examples.Sorry dude, but this post has some problems. First off, whether or not a Pokémon is used often means nothing about its viability. Take Deoxys-S, for instance. When it was first suspected it wasn't even used enough to be OU- it was sitting in BL. Even though it wasn't used often, it was still broken enough to be banned eventually. And then you have Donphan, which was OU by usage for a while even though it was awful there. Usage =/= viability.
Moreover, though the ways you listed are legitimate ways to beat Mega Mence, the fact that something has checks and counters doesn't mean it's not broken. Pokémon like Genesect and Aegislash had their fair share of reliable checks and counters: most Fire-types for Genesect, and Bisharp for Aegislash, for instance. Even if you're trying to get the speed jump on Mega Mence, taking it out is a different story. With Intimidate and some solid 95/130/90 bulk, it isn't as easy to take down as you might think. And no, just because most Ice Beam users OHKO it does not mean it should stay, as Mence can threaten them right back, reducing them to mere checks instead of counters. (You'll notice this in the calcs that are present throughout this thread.) Additionally, Jirachi + Mence doesn't always have to lead- we have Team Preview to determine when they should come in. If you think that Mega Mence shouldn't be banned, then your opponents were probably using it incorrectly. That's the problem with these suspect ladders; most ladder players are shit, it has to be said.
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 320-380 (96.3 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKOIf one more person says Ludicolo (or Swampert) in the rain is a check, I think I'm going to explode.
A lot of these START with +1 mence so there's thatA billion calcs
It doesn't outspeed +1 mence. The second Mence gets a free turn (cough Jirachi, Talonflame, Fake Out, etc) ludicolo ceases to be a check and in fact is a dead man walking. That is hardly a check. It is reliant on BOTH rain being up and Mence not having boosted.252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 320-380 (96.3 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 368-436 (110.8 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I call it as I see it, something that outspeeds and OHKOs looks a lot like a check to me?
The calcs do take into account Intimidate if the Pokemon taking the damage can have it. Sure you could double Intimidate it or switch in an Intimidate user and a healthy Flying resist together, but that's why Salamence has Protect to buy itself a turn while its partner does something.A lot of these START with +1 mence so there's that
All of them don't take into account that Salamence can be intimidated by the mon you're calcing against
Kyurem and Sylveon both live a hit from Mence with minimal investment
I would just like to remind everyone that Salamence doesn't enter the game at +1, nor does it keep intimidate the entire game (although the second point is less relevant for calcs as it is for actually thinking about how to play around Mence)
Ludicolo also gets a free turn (cough Jirachi) to hit with Ice Beam nice n easy.It doesn't outspeed +1 mence. The second Mence gets a free turn (cough Jirachi, Talonflame, Fake Out, etc) ludicolo ceases to be a check and in fact is a dead man walking. That is hardly a check. It is reliant on BOTH rain being up and Mence not having boosted.
Have fun relying on that.
1) While it has few hard counters (sets that can counter after a boost), Salamence has many checks from all over the spectrum of roles. Just adding to kale's list, Jirachi can counter Mence with follow me so a partner can check it, Togekiss can do the same, although a boosted double-edge will probably OHKO or 2HKO.
This argument doesn't actually work all that well in reverse. An example possibility (obviously depends on the sets). Mence Protects while Mence's partner Rachi uses TWave. Now, if Ludicolo's partner Jirachi gets paralyzed on any of the turns while trying to use Follow Me, Ludicolo gets donked. Even against your marvelous pairing (and I'm even giving Ludicolo rain and Mence no boosts...) Mence and Rachi can still come out on top.
2) It doesn't switch in and instantly be at +1 or +2
If the ultimate effect is broken, it doesn't matter what the initial state is.
3) WoW and Intimidate are always common, and physical sets don't like them
Intimidate and WoW can be blocked by Sub sets. WoW can actually be taken advantage of by Facade while still being stronk af even when not statused. On top of that, Mence really does not give two shits about most Intimidate mons. Hitmontop and Scrafty usage has just totally plummeted. I wonder why?
4) It has 4MMS. I've seen so many argument saying "fire blast varients" or "Aqua Tail Variants", or varients with EQ, or Hydro Pump, or special attacking ones. It can't do anything at once
While 4MSS can mean that a mon really needs 5 moves to be successful, it is often instead synonymous with unpredictability and having many options. It has never been an argument relevant to banning something or not.
5) ANYTHING can be broken with enough boosts / follow me support. We should ban everything that can boost it's own stats if your that worried.
Lol
6) The meta is really prepared for it right now
Really a suspect test meta is prepared for the thing being suspected? That's never happened before, has it? Oh wait. It happens in almost every suspect test.
7) Strong =/= Broken
Lol
8) It has common weaknesses
It does indeed have a few weaknesses. Common weaknesses make a mon bad, right? That's why Terrakion is terrible. It's weak to Water, Ground, Fighting, and Fairy (not to mention Psychic, Steel, and Grass). In reality, Mence's type weaknesses are more than made up for by its awesome resistances, which make setting up on numerous mons in Doubles possible, even without redirection.
9) It is very susceptible to speed control. Tail Wind and TR both can halt sweeps if timed right, as many checks become counters now that they outspeed.
I've addressed this before and a mon that redefines speed tiers and can boost its own speed easily just ISN'T vulnerable to speed control. Everything in Doubles is to some degree, but Mence is less so than anything else offensive in the tier except for Talonflame.
10) Saying "I need to run this or I loose" is a bad argument. In XY, you needed a strong fighting attack to check or counter Kang, and you needed a strong ice attack to check Landoge. If you didn't run those, then say GG from team preview. If that didn't mean broken with the 2 strongest mons last gen, then it may not be broke this gen
I had many teams without a Fighting attack that handled Kanga just fine. Plenty of teams without an Ice attack. What kind of meta were you even playing?! And if they actually were that centralizing, guess what? They WOULD have been banned. "I need to run this or I lose" is literally the definition of overcentralization, which merits banning. It's really, REALLY hard to take anything you say seriously when you conclude with something this clueless.
Individual power isn't the only thing to consider when banning something. You also have to look at it from teambuilder's perspective. In my post i just wanted to say that Mega Sala isn't an autoinclude in almost every team - if it was, then it would be banworthy.how about we don't compare it to mega kanga, and decide wether or not it's broken based on it's individual power in the metagame.
Alright time to post my opinion on this.
Let's compare mega mence and kang:
1. Both are weak to physical debuffs (intimidate, WoW).
As often as I've gotten my Megamence trick roomed I just sorta chilled through it. Though speed is an important asset to Megamence it's hardly the only thing going for it, and setting up and utilizing Trick Room is hard when Megamence is murdering.4. While mence has higher base speed, it lacks consistent priority, which kang does have in the form of sucker punch. Also higher speed makes you more vunerable to TR and restricts your teambuilding options a bit, because kang works under TR fine.