Hasn't Flying Spam declined in usage though? Heracross has always had that issue in Gen 6, but if Flying Spam has decreased in usage, then this argument is not as strong.That and flyspam i think.
Hasn't Flying Spam declined in usage though? Heracross has always had that issue in Gen 6, but if Flying Spam has decreased in usage, then this argument is not as strong.That and flyspam i think.
Flyingspam has always been there, but the increase in fairies has heavily outgained the decline of flyspam.Hasn't Flying Spam declined in usage though? Heracross has always had that issue in Gen 6, but if Flying Spam has decreased in usage, then this argument is not as strong.
Prediction goes both ways. That's like saying Greninja doesn't deserve S-rank because it doesn't predict Conkeldurr coming in to mach punch it.I was just saying that saying that you can predict an incoming scizor and use flamethrower isn't the best reasoning for a mon being S RANK because that is based on chance. Sure it is possible to predict an incoming switch in, but I don't like it when people use the fact that they can predict a switch in as reasoning.
While flying spam decreased a bit, the ORAS meta brings mons he doesn't like. Hes having problems with the increasing fairy spam and some psychic pokemons that rising. Also the mega competition is getting even more harder, and while no other mon hit hard as him, some the new mega are a lot faster and more bulkier which make harder to revenge kill.Just wondering, what are the reasons to lower M cross? Purely because of the ffairy usage increase?
More checks in the existence of new megas was another reason.Just wondering, what are the reasons to lower M cross? Purely because of the ffairy usage increase?
My point was using the fact clefable predicting scizor coming in as a threat and using flamethrower isn't the best reasoning behind making it S rank. Granted it is an amazing mon, but I don't believe it deserves S rank because there are several common Pokemon that take it down such as bulky Scizor, Metagross, and Heatran. However, it is still a top-tier A+ rank threat. IMO it is the Rotom-W of A+.Prediction goes both ways. That's like saying Greninja doesn't deserve S-rank because it doesn't predict Conkeldurr coming in to mach punch it.
And you're missing the fact that Mega Scizor is not a good answer to Clefable. Maybe in a pure 1 v 1 situation Mega Scizor can beat Clefable but in general Mega Scizor is not an answer.My point was using the fact clefable predicting scizor coming in as a threat and using flamethrower isn't the best reasoning behind making it S rank. Granted it is an amazing mon, but I don't believe it deserves S rank because there are several common Pokemon that take it down such as bulky Scizor, Metagross, and Heatran. However, it is still a top-tier A+ rank threat. IMO it is the Rotom-W of A+.
I don't think it's blacklist worthy. While it's initial placement is up for debate, it fits in the C ranks at the very least. Blacklisting is more for things that are either generally outclassed or for things that get brought up repeatedly for incredibly small niches, neither of which Serperior really fits.I really think that if they continue to think that Serperior has niches (or even more or less) in the OU metagame, i would be very happy of his blacklisting.
Woah there! If it's too early to rank a Pokemon that's only been out a day, it's CERTAINLY too soon to blacklist it. Something that (admittedly "appealing to experts" fallacy) well regarded players are considering for B or above is hardly going to be on the level of Donphan or Florges. And Serperior's cons are really being overblown. Sure, it has a shit movepool, but what it has when you consider a boosting move that works alongside a STAB Base 120 move in addition to Dpulse + HP + whatever you feel works best isn't all that bad. What everyone is THINKING is "Talonflame shits on it/Heatran walls it", which is true to a certain degree. Don't let this affect your judgment just yet; the entire Serperior thread has been tackling this question and it hasn't given up yet.I really think that if they continue to think that Serperior has niches (or even more or less) in the OU metagame, i would be very happy of his blacklisting.
Not disagreeing with C-, but that point is a bit silly. The last thing Serperior would want to run is a boosting move. It's got a reverse-leafstorm! That's all the boosting it needs, plus those three moves for coverage/support. Plus regular Serp can run Coil and nobody uses it :I...with Contrary it cant setup with Coil/CM which sucks. C- is fine for it.
Gonna be ballsy and nominate Dragalge for B- (or at least C+). I think it's quite possible to make a case for that.
I'm not even talking about the Specs set, which is probably C+ on its own. People seem to think that's the only viable set for Dragalge to run, which is certainly untrue. The ability to run Toxic Plate/Draco Plate (depending on the situation/team need) lets you almost bluff a Specs set, which is incredibly useful when you have fairly powerful STAB (plus, if you run Scald, which is fairly standard on even defensive Dragalge sets, you can surprise something with Draco Meteor/Sludge Wave on the switch in, which is very nice). Even with Draco Plate/Toxic Plate, Draco Meteor still utterly annihilates most things, even some that resist (Bisharp), while Toxic Plate still does tons of damage to fairies (you can reliably come in on Clefable at +1 and beat it even with lowest damage rolls).
Defensive sets with Dragon Tail/Sub actually work too because Poison/Dragon with some SpDef/HP investment (Calm, 248HP, 100 SpDef) makes your subs not-broken by things like Rotom-W Volt Switch, Talonflame/Diggersby/Scizor U-turn, and others, so you can up hazards damage with Dragon Tail (Skarmory is a great partner, only shared non-resist is Ice) or nail more stuff on the switch in with an Adaptability-boosted attack (which still hurt even with only 156 SpA investment). Dragon/Poison is just a nifty typing-you can also run a 100% accurate Toxic if you want, and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes I guess is nice although nobody seems to run those. Even with Defensive sets, you still wreck Clefable/Azumarill (not really Togekiss unless you predict it switching in, because ParaFlinch Hax), who can only hit you for neutral damage at best.
Also, Dragalge's base speed (44), while low, is actually enough to invest in to beat stuff like uninvested Tyranitar and the like-but still low enough that you don't NEED max speed investment, and can instead shove that into bulk, making Dragalge actually fairly bulky (relatively speaking, even Specs builds are bulkier than Latios). Plus, you are Pursuit/U-Turn resistant, which is nice compared to the Lati twins (remember in comparison, Specs Dragalge hits not only harder than Specs Latios-Specs Dragalge hits 8% harder than Timid Life Orb Mega Rayquaza). So while you're not gonna be replacing Latios/Latias with Dragalge, it isn't completely 100% outclassed by them. They all can wall-break, but have different "other" niches (Defoggers/RKers for the Latis, defensive utility for Latias and Dragalge, with Dragalge being arguably better due to bulk investment and a great typing).
Dragalge does suffer though from a pretty low HP stat (base 65 isn't great even fully invested) and a very common weakness in ground, as Earthquake is friggin' everywhere. Ice and Psychic aren't the best weaknesses to have either. A decent-ish base defense of 95 is again not that great simply because base 65 health means even maxing out your defense (mostly not advisable, unless you can hit some benchmarks with uninvested EQ from some things, but unlikely to be worth the SpDef/SpA compromise), so strong neutral attacks will make you sad. In addition, you've got no reliable recovery other than Black Sludge (used on defensive sets), and since you're pretty darn slow, you'll probably take a good hit coming in (assuming you're not volt-turned in, which is honestly one of the best ways to bring in Dragalge), wearing you down pretty fast.
All in all, I think Dragalge's ability to murderize most of the relevant OU fairies while being able to OHKO/do 75%+ to most of OU, while being pretty darn good from a defensive standpoint, make it at least viable for C+. It's basically a more offensive version of Goodra (at least the offensive sets) that benefits from an arguably-more-useful-in-this-meta defensive typing. I'd argue that it's at least equal to those pokes in terms of defensive utility, but the sheer power Dragalge can offer makes me want to be brave and nominate to B- simply because Specs/Plates Dragalge can OHKO most of the A/B/C tiers (quite a few after rocks-but even stuff like standard Bisharp is OHKO'd by Specs/Draco Plate Draco) with either Draco Meteor or Sludge Wave, which is kinda insane and not seen by a lot of the stuff in C+.
I was just trying to say that it can tank hits from Clefable, not that it was an answer to Clefable. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to convey that it was an answer to Clefable. Also, I was just pointing out that 4 mons that were in the top 15 usage were answers to Clefable, so it shouldn't be S rank.Rotom-W is not a Clefable answer and it's not even close to one. I have no clue what you're even trying to prove with that point cause that's extremely false. Talonflame, Heatran, and M-Gross in regards to handling Clefable is sort of a given already. No need to bog up pages among pages of details that quite frankly should already be a given.
Serp can't kill unaware clefable........I want to point out something with regard to Serperior and the comments people are making about stall.
AV Tornadus-T is making a huge comeback due to its incredibly useful speed, movepool, bulk, and seemingly no greninjas. It counters Serperior just fine (though relying on 70% hurricane)
Yes serp can beat things like quagsire/sableye/clefable stall teams but there are plenty of more proactive stall teams out there that use stuff besides the blobs. Venusaur stall is coming back as well and matches up well against both serp and manaphy so take that into account.
Serp isn't necessarily the ultimate stallbreaker. But it still deserves a A-/B+ ranking.
More checks in the existence of new megas was another reason.
Yeah, i guess i was a bit biased at first because i like mega cross but then i remembered stewpid mega altaria and the other fairies rape him, bird spam doesnt help either. I guess i agree with B+ too since a team build around him is very effective and hard to take on (personally sub+3attacks works fine for me).While flying spam decreased a bit, the ORAS meta brings mons he doesn't like. Hes having problems with the increasing fairy spam and some psychic pokemons that rising. Also the mega competition is getting even more harder, and while no other mon hit hard as him, some the new mega are a lot faster and more bulkier which make harder to revenge kill.
See, this is why we dont like your opinions.I want to point out something with regard to Serperior and the comments people are making about stall.
AV Tornadus-T is making a huge comeback due to its incredibly useful speed, movepool, bulk, and seemingly no greninjas. It counters Serperior just fine (though relying on 70% hurricane)
Yes serp can beat things like quagsire/sableye/clefable stall teams but there are plenty of more proactive stall teams out there that use stuff besides the blobs. Venusaur stall is coming back as well and matches up well against both serp and manaphy so take that into account.
Serp isn't necessarily the ultimate stallbreaker. But it still deserves a A-/B+ ranking.
Actually, this might be a bit wrong since i havent used Clefable recently, this calc would prove otherwise:Serp can't kill unaware clefable........
If anything a fully defensive set has become more common. So yes, it does break through Unaware Clefable according to the calcs.Actually, this might be a bit wrong since i havent used Clefable recently, this calc would prove otherwise:
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Again, not entirely sure bout the EVs any more but with that old benchmark it could.
Can he really, though? It would be extremely unwise to try to leave Rotom-W in on Clefable to sponge hits while she sets up for the CM massacre. I just can't even with that claim.I was just trying to say that it can tank hits from Clefable, not that it was an answer to Clefable. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to convey that it was an answer to Clefable. Also, I was just pointing out that 4 mons that were in the top 15 usage were answers to Clefable, so it shouldn't be S rank.