ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

[TheTraininator]

Here you go, by the way. :)

dingbat please, my OCD is killing me here. :(

Well, I guess I'd better make a more valuable contribution to the discussion as well, right? I think Mega Beedrill is fine where it is at A right now. It's very good at what it does, and the Mega Zam ban has certainly helped it, but I honestly don't think it has as much consistency and versatility as the Pokemon currently sitting at A+, who also all require less team support. I could be wrong though, as there is no doubt of Beedrill's deadliness and effectiveness at the role it has. Mega Bee is a very borderline case in my eyes, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[DMT]

X-Scissor from Shedinja does 50% to bee.

 

[dingbat]

dingbat please, my OCD is killing me here. :(

kek

Anyways time for nom reviews:

Infernape: Stay at A-. See King UU's post on page 13
Beedrill for A or A+ rank? Pretty debatable here, since I still think the overall preparedness for Mega Beedrill on teams is pretty damn significant, but granted if things like Fell Stinger do some kind of work, who knows what could be BUZZZZZZZZZZing around.
Big Linda for B- rank: Not the best bird out there, but it's got more bulk compared to many other birds and Sub BU (its best set) can be really dangerous once shit like Doublade gets killed or even if it's the last 'mon on one's team. True story: ~Volbeatdown~ , I think it you who wrecked my Rhyperior with sub BU Braviary in an all-out bird team if I remember correctly lol

Other shit

Serperior for B+ rank: Limitless nommed in a private chat, and I agree that it's time to move this serpent up a notch.
Lucario for A rank or something? idk, it's been sitting in A- since ORAS vr started, and I'd like to think it's gotten better since Bunny and Mega Gallade left the tier... But I'm not certain, so i'm leaving this to you guys here.

 

[DMT]

kek
and Sub BU (its best set) can be really dangerous once shit like Doublade gets killed or even if it's the last 'mon on one's team.

Doublade is setup fodder as long as it's not got Sacred Sword.

 

[glock in my toyota]

kek

Anyways time for nom reviews:

Infernape: Stay at A-. See King UU's post on page 13
Beedrill for A or A+ rank? Pretty debatable here, since I still think the overall preparedness for Mega Beedrill on teams is pretty damn significant, but granted if things like Fell Stinger do some kind of work, who knows what could be BUZZZZZZZZZZing around.
Big Linda for B- rank: Not the best bird out there, but it's got more bulk compared to many other birds and Sub BU (its best set) can be really dangerous once shit like Doublade gets killed or even if it's the last 'mon on one's team. True story: ~Volbeatdown~ , I think it you who wrecked my Rhyperior with sub BU Braviary in an all-out bird team if I remember correctly lol

Other shit

Serperior for B+ rank: Limitless nommed in a private chat, and I agree that it's time to move this serpent up a notch.
Lucario for A rank or something? idk, it's been sitting in A- since ORAS vr started, and I'd like to think it's gotten better since Bunny and Mega Gallade left the tier... But I'm not certain, so i'm leaving this to you guys here.

ahhhhh yes the birdspam fite
Big Linda was Big Inda

 

[Nightingales]

With all the fighting around, Lucario isn't exactly the biggest contender - burns cripple it, paralyze makes it slower than the rest. It's immune to poison, which is good, but it doesn't really stack compared to things like Guts Machamp and Scarfschao running around since the former can swallow a LO Close Combat if I'm right, or a burn trying to stop it, and the second will just outspeed for whatever it uses these days. It hits other things plenty fine, but overall I think it stays in A- for now.

Just my opinion, though.

 

[r0ady]

With all the fighting around, Lucario isn't exactly the biggest contender - burns cripple it, paralyze makes it slower than the rest. It's immune to poison, which is good, but it doesn't really stack compared to things like Guts Machamp and Scarfschao running around since the former can swallow a LO Close Combat if I'm right, or a burn trying to stop it, and the second will just outspeed for whatever it uses these days. It hits other things plenty fine, but overall I think it stays in A- for now.

Just my opinion, though.

Lucario mienshai and machamp are three completely different Mons that fill different rolls. One being a revenge killer, one being a wall breaker and one being a win con, you can't really compare them like that

 

[Nightingales]

I mean that the latter two will utterly decimate Lucario because of Fighting/Steel while Lucario can't really kill them back unless they're low.

 

[canasian]

You're still ignoring the fact that Lucario is a late-game cleaner, so it isn't really his job to be 1v1'ing the other fighting-types in the tier. By the point in the game where Lucario is ready to do his job, Mienshao and Machamp should both have taken enough prior damage to die to Lucario (Mienshao needs to switch into Stealth Rock+1 Spike twice to be in range of unboosted Extreme Speed, while just about any prior damage puts Machamp in range of Close Combat)

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

I mean that the latter two will utterly decimate Lucario because of Fighting/Steel while Lucario can't really kill them back unless they're low.

Yeah, I've actually been using Lucario with Machamp recently and the two do very well together, Machamp goes out and breaks the other team's fighting resistances to make Lucario's sweep easier, and on an old Volt-Turn team I used to use Mienshao who was key to helping Lucario get enough room to set up and sweep. If anything I'd say that having Machamp and Mienshao in the tier make Lucario's job even easier since they can be put to wearing down Lucario's checks and counters until they get to the point where they can't do their jobs anymore.

By the way, once Lucario gets to +2 he actually tears Machamp and Mienshao new ones:

Hide

Mienshao:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 334-394 (123.2 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Machamp:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 598-706 (155.7 - 183.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I mean of course Lucario can't set up on Machamp or a Mienshao locked into High Jump Kick, but how many set up sweepers are looking at those mons and trying to set up anyway? Hell, if Mienshao is locked into something like Knock Off or Stone Edge Lucario can actually set up in its face.

 

[dingbat]

Doublade is setup fodder as long as it's not got Sacred Sword.

Doublade can set up faster than big burd can tho :[

But I'll give that Doublade at least needs to be somewhat healthy in order to be able to beat it

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Imo, I think Entei is a little over-hyped. Sacred fire is amazing, and it's probably the best physical fire type atm, but I don't know if sacred fire burns merits Entei to be S ranked. The argument is that it has no real switch ins because everything is punished with burns, but at the same time, Entei is punished by having to switch in because of its vulnerability to hazards.

Probably gonna get a lot of shit for it, but I think Entei should be A/A+. Water types are still top dogs in UU. Suicine and Vape both have ways to deal with status (Rest/heal bell), while things like Swampert have scald to deal with it. Entei can switch out, but with hazards, it is equally punished. And I am arguing this on a 1 on 1 basis, as in, the rest of the team doesn't matter, because that's what an S-ranked mon should be. Suicine differs from Entei in the sense that suicine is punished a lot less than Entei when taking hits because a.) Its role is a bulky sweeper with rest b.) The things that counter it can be beaten via pp stalling (lame but so is stall KEK), and c.) Suicine can run multiple sets. SubCM, CM Roar, Offensive CM, or CM, Rest + 2 Attacks, etc. Entei basically has Extreme Speed to nullify the need for a scarfer, Sacred Fire for burns, and good bulk to switch in some resisted hits.

Whenever I see Entei, it isn't like facing lucario. Lucario can literally turn games around with one free switch in because its movepool allows it to beat its counters. Chandy and Gligar get destroyed by Crunch/EQ/ and Ice Punch. Entei is essentially a one trick pony, but it doesn't have the raw bulk to allow it to be a one trick pony.

I think Entei should drop, and if anything, I think Lucario should move up to A.

tl;dr Entei to A+-A
Lucario to A

 

[YABO]

Yeah, I've actually been using Lucario with Machamp recently and the two do very well together, Machamp goes out and breaks the other team's fighting resistances to make Lucario's sweep easier, and on an old Volt-Turn team I used to use Mienshao who was key to helping Lucario get enough room to set up and sweep. If anything I'd say that having Machamp and Mienshao in the tier make Lucario's job even easier since they can be put to wearing down Lucario's checks and counters until they get to the point where they can't do their jobs anymore.

Adding on to this, I had a pretty successful team at the end of XY that utilized all three of these pokemon in tandem. Teams weren't able to deal with the onslaught of Fighting-type attacks that the three brought forward. Machamp would start pounding on walls. After that, Mienshao or Lucario would continue smacking stuff until the other could clean up with either ESpeed or HJK. It was a tremendously fun team to play with despite it being "gimmicky". Lucario, Machamp, and Mienshao aren't really similar outside of them being Fighting-types. Mienshao is a revenge killer, Machamp is a bulky wall breaker/status absorber, and Lucario is a late game Setup Sweeper. These are three completely different roles.

 

[dodmen]

Imo, I think Entei is a little over-hyped. Sacred fire is amazing, and it's probably the best physical fire type atm, but I don't know if sacred fire burns merits Entei to be S ranked. The argument is that it has no real switch ins because everything is punished with burns, but at the same time, Entei is punished by having to switch in because of its vulnerability to hazards.

Probably gonna get a lot of shit for it, but I think Entei should be A/A+. Water types are still top dogs in UU. Suicine and Vape both have ways to deal with status (Rest/heal bell), while things like Swampert have scald to deal with it. Entei can switch out, but with hazards, it is equally punished. And I am arguing this on a 1 on 1 basis, as in, the rest of the team doesn't matter, because that's what an S-ranked mon should be. Suicine differs from Entei in the sense that suicine is punished a lot less than Entei when taking hits because a.) Its role is a bulky sweeper with rest b.) The things that counter it can be beaten via pp stalling (lame but so is stall KEK), and c.) Suicine can run multiple sets. SubCM, CM Roar, Offensive CM, or CM, Rest + 2 Attacks, etc. Entei basically has Extreme Speed to nullify the need for a scarfer, Sacred Fire for burns, and good bulk to switch in some resisted hits.

Whenever I see Entei, it isn't like facing lucario. Lucario can literally turn games around with one free switch in because its movepool allows it to beat its counters. Chandy and Gligar get destroyed by Crunch/EQ/ and Ice Punch. Entei is essentially a one trick pony, but it doesn't have the raw bulk to allow it to be a one trick pony.

I think Entei should drop, and if anything, I think Lucario should move up to A.

tl;dr Entei to A+-A
Lucario to A

No one is saying that Entei will beat any bulky waters 1 on 1, and in fact, a 1v1 scenario shouldn't be your argument in the first place; the rest of the team absolutely matters. The main reason that Entei was moved up to S was because of how much Sacred Fire pressures and cripples its counters, not straight up kills m. If you switch in your Vaporeon, you've got to deal with the attack damage, hazard damage, and burn damage; you can no longer gain Leftovers recovery with Protect; you've got to use up a turn to Heal Bell if you want to do that, and Vaporeon is generally just now under a ton of pressure to keep itself healthy in addition to supporting its teammates. And not only does Entei have the ability to pressure defensive and balanced teams with its main STAB, but it also can perform very well against offense and frailer teams with the threat of Extremespeed. Anyway, you shouldn't be comparing Entei to Suicune in the way you did because the two Pokemon's roles are completely different. Suicune is great in its ability to take hits, set up, and sweep the opposing team like you said, but Entei is great in its ability to punch holes in and severely pressure opposing teams while being able to take a hit or two when needed. Doesn't really matter if Entei is a "one trick pony", because if that one trick threatens the vast majority of the metagame, then Entei most definitely deserves S for it.

 

[Celsius]

To be honest , i feel like a mon which takes 25% each times he comes in , with any way to recover , couldn't be ranked S.
Entei needs support , he needs a Defog/RapidSpin user on his team to be effective .
The other S ranked don't need support to do well. But Entei , if you don't support him like i said earlier , he comes ... humm 4 times on the field ?
You can deal with Entei just by keeping hazards pressure , he won't spam his Sacred Fire without thinking a bit.
This is just my feeling. I think S is too much.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Besides, the argument is that most S-Rank Pokemon (in any tier) are generally splashable and generally require little to no support. Although there are examples of SR-weak S-rank mons in other tiers, I really don't think that the benefits that Entei brings completely mitigates the support required for it to sit as an S-Rank Pokemon. To be honest, I think Entei is much too overhyped atm and the arguments made about the theory behind Entei's greatness might not be so applicable in practice.

 

[Ununhexium]

Hydreigon was S rank when Florges were everywhere in XY. Moltres is currently S rank in RU iirc and it has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and its best set uses Life Orb, so it actually needs support 100% to function. Jirachi needs help against bulky Water- and Ground-types in order to stay around. Requiring support does not keep if from being S rank. If S rank meant that they could easily sweep / etc with no support, wouldn't they just be banned instead?

 

[Nightingales]

Let's not ban Entei please. I'm too lazy to find a replacement.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I really don't think that the benefits that Entei brings completely mitigates the support required for it to sit as an S-Rank Pokemon.

I appreciate that you read at least part of my response.

 

[Sam]

Entei:

dodmen pretty much hit on why we moved Entei up to S. Is Sacred Fire that good? Yes, yes it is.

Lucario:

This one is a little more divisive. However, I don't really see any need to move Lucario up. Although Lucario is still a very threatening mon, it is way too dependent on set-up. Both Nasty Plot and Swords Dance share the horrible flaw of not being able to set up. They meta is just a lot bulkier and harder hitting right now than it was back when Lucario was an S mon (summer meta) and it finds little room to set up. It doesn't force as many top threats out and a lot of the defensive mons it loved to use as set-up (mainly Blissey, Forrey) aren't very good/popular right now. On top of that, Lucario's top offensive set-up, Scarf Hydrei, isn't as good/popular as well. On top of all of this, Jirachi with Fire Punch might be the most common thing right now. Lucario is still very threatening if it gets a boost; getting the boost is the problem. I think it's fine in A-.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm with Eaglehawk on this one. Now, to be fair, requiring some support does not preclude a Pokemon from being S. Like Ununhexium said, Moltres is currently S in RU despite its Stealth Rock weakness.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and try to define these in a way that makes sense to me, and King UU and Dingbat can confirm or deny this: That support has to either be insanely minimal or non-existent, unless the Pokemon in question is PROVIDING the support, like Jirachi or Slowbro before it. Suicune has a handful of hard counters, most/all of which it can remove with a little support or by itself. Sure, it sacrifices some of the power of the CroCune set to remove those counters, but now it can sweep a slightly more weak team or let another Pokemon clean up after Suicune softens the team up.

The exception to this support rule is that the Pokemon has to be so fucking effective that the slightly more strenuous support is more than worth it. RU is missing most of the really good spinners and defoggers, so keeping Rocks off the field is no mean feat. Moltres maintains his throne, however, because he is that insanely dangerous.

EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaand Namehtmas (who now goes by Sam and I realize his old name is "Sam the man" backwards) beat me to it. What I get for lollygagging, I suppose.

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

It might've been on some earlier pages but what's the general consensus on Emboar? I think it could land a respectable spot at B+ rank. Like Reckless is what really gave this massive pile of self-cooking bacon the chance it needed to hold down some viability in UU outside of using some kinda AV set during the meta where Mega Houndoom was actually S-Rank.

A lot of comparisons can be drawn to Emboar, being a slow bulky Fighting-type (Machamp), a Fire-type with access to moves that hit Water-types (Arcanine, Chandelure, Infernape), and a Fire/Fighting type with a surprisingly spacious movepool (Infernape again) but the main draws to it are its presence as a slow wallbreaker that can be a nuisance for a huge chunk of the tier to switch into. Like really, with Reckless boosting the power of Flare Blitz, Wild Charge, and Head Smash (the least necessary of its Reckless-boosted moves) there's not a lot that's willing to switch into it. It may be known for rapidly killing itself between recoil, entry hazards, and possible Life Orb recoil, but it's capable of putting holes up in a lot of defensive cores, particularly ones that rely on bulky Water-types:

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 270-320 (51 - 60.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 348-411 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Emboar Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 328-390 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Well you'd have to be using a Lonely/Naughty nature for going mixed, but this is still a thing)
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 278-328 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its Flare Blitz is also a serious nuke which pretty much shatters about every physical wall that could hope to take Wild Charge for the bulky Water-types they may or may not be paired up with. This is all on top of the fact it has usable priority in Sucker Punch, which allows it to spank faster Psychic-types such as Alakazam and Jirachi, while still picking off weakened offensive Pokemon that outspeed it. Oh yeah speaking of outspeeding, Emboar can actually outpace a number of defensive threats comfortably, up to and including defensive Suicune without even needing a +Spe nature, meaning even if they switch in on the worst move and survive, they're still likely to get slayed. :]

Also, Volcanion aside, Emboar is the only Fire-type that can actually learn SCLAD. Bruh. #BaconForB+

tl;dr: Emboar for B+ because he is a nightmare to switch into for a large number of defensive threats, while checking offensive Pokemon through use of Sucker Punch. He also learns Scald.

 

[DMT]

It might've been on some earlier pages but what's the general consensus on Emboar? I think it could land a respectable spot at B+ rank. Like Reckless is what really gave this massive pile of self-cooking bacon the chance it needed to hold down some viability in UU outside of using some kinda AV set during the meta where Mega Houndoom was actually S-Rank.

A lot of comparisons can be drawn to Emboar, being a slow bulky Fighting-type (Machamp), a Fire-type with access to moves that hit Water-types (Arcanine, Chandelure, Infernape), and a Fire/Fighting type with a surprisingly spacious movepool (Infernape again) but the main draws to it are its presence as a slow wallbreaker that can be a nuisance for a huge chunk of the tier to switch into. Like really, with Reckless boosting the power of Flare Blitz, Wild Charge, and Head Smash (the least necessary of its Reckless-boosted moves) there's not a lot that's willing to switch into it. It may be known for rapidly killing itself between recoil, entry hazards, and possible Life Orb recoil, but it's capable of putting holes up in a lot of defensive cores, particularly ones that rely on bulky Water-types:

252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 270-320 (51 - 60.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 348-411 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Emboar Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 328-390 (81.7 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Well you'd have to be using a Lonely/Naughty nature for going mixed, but this is still a thing)
252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 278-328 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Its Flare Blitz is also a serious nuke which pretty much shatters about every physical wall that could hope to take Wild Charge for the bulky Water-types they may or may not be paired up with. This is all on top of the fact it has usable priority in Sucker Punch, which allows it to spank faster Psychic-types such as Alakazam and Jirachi, while still picking off weakened offensive Pokemon that outspeed it. Oh yeah speaking of outspeeding, Emboar can actually outpace a number of defensive threats comfortably, up to and including defensive Suicune without even needing a +Spe nature, meaning even if they switch in on the worst move and survive, they're still likely to get slayed. :]

Also, Volcanion aside, Emboar is the only Fire-type that can actually learn SCLAD. Bruh. #BaconForB+

tl;dr: Emboar for B+ because he is a nightmare to switch into for a large number of defensive threats, while checking offensive Pokemon through use of Sucker Punch. He also learns Scald.

I don't like Emboar and I hate it and it's bad. It has no switch ins, but can't really kill anything without A) being outsped or B) dying to something by recoil. I dunno. It seems great in theory, and it pairs fairly well with Serperior by taking out Celebi/Blissey/Umbreon and the likes, but eh.
I can't stand the thing. B-, B at best.

 

[r0ady]

Testing the pig out in RW IMO it just seeks like a mash up between machamp darmanitan and infernape, but doesn't do any of their jobs anywhere near as well. The lack of spammable fighting stab hurts it and makes choosing g a move make you keep switching always in the back of your mind, and if hazards are up and you have a slow bulky Mon depending heavily on recoil moves I don't really like it. Using the banded set makes me think "oh well why don't I just use banded darm or machamp" and using the lo se makes me think "oh well why don't I use nape?" And bulk isn't a solid argument because this thing is way to frail for a 65 speed tier IMO. At best I think it should be B-. Good at what it does but others do it better

 

[DiscoDucky]

Testing the pig out in RW IMO it just seeks like a mash up between machamp darmanitan and infernape, but doesn't do any of their jobs anywhere near as well. The lack of spammable fighting stab hurts it and makes choosing g a move make you keep switching always in the back of your mind, and if hazards are up and you have a slow bulky Mon depending heavily on recoil moves I don't really like it. Using the banded set makes me think "oh well why don't I just use banded darm or machamp" and using the lo se makes me think "oh well why don't I use nape?" And bulk isn't a solid argument because this thing is way to frail for a 65 speed tier IMO. At best I think it should be B-. Good at what it does but others do it better

If you're not running scald on LO set, you're doing it wrong.

Yea, as I said way before Reckless Pig came out, Emboar is really nothing special. It's a fun toy for lower ladder to use. However, UU has such a saturated market for Fire and Fighting type wallbreakers such that Emboar's Reckless Flare Blitz isn't anything worth noting. Furthermore, I find that GameFreak was kinda trollish in not giving Emboar Submission to use in conjunction with Reckless.