Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems

[testsubordinate]

Yes now I can play NU again! Bye Randoms!

 

[greengrappler]

Just thought I would post my 2 cents on Typhlosion since people have brought it up.

The main selling point for Typhlosion would definitely be his powerful Eruption, which hits incredibly hard when he dons a pair of Choice Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know this is probably not the best Seismitoad spread, but it does show how it can do up to 40% to even bulky resisters.

As well, all 1/4 resisters take a ton from HP Grass
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 496-584 (171 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I know being able to do a ton of damage doesn't make something broken, but it just goes to show that few things can avoid a 2 hit KO.

No, I have heard people say how Assault Vest users can take him head to head,
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 108-127 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 2.5% chance to 4HKO
Once again, bad spread, I know. But keep in mind, Hariyama can take Eruptions, but he lacks recovery, so you would be hard pressed to preserve him throughout the match. All your opponent would need to do would be to slowly wear down your Fire resist.

And even if you do manage to wear down his HP to where his Eruption couldn't do much...
252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 118-139 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93.6% chance to 4HKO
It hits even harder once Blaze activates.

While Typhlosion may hit incredibly hard, he can be revenged, right? Not always, as he can still effectively run a Scarf set to out speed his would-be revenger.

But Typhlosion is not without flaw, I get that.
His weakness to Stealth Rock means he can't keep switching forever, but Defog and Rapid Spin exist.
If he runs Specs, he may hit hard, but he gets out sped by a lot more.
If he runs Scarf, he doesn't hit as hard.
Basically all he does is Erupt-spam, so he is somewhat predictable.

Remember, this is just MY opinion, no need to go overboard on it, if you disagree on an aspect of it, please use constructive criticism. Also, I can edit my post with the standard spread for AV-Hari if someone would tell me what it is. I am not saying "Ban Typhlosion" I am just laying out my thoughts on him.

 

[Pokedots]

.

Just thought I would post my 2 cents on Typhlosion since people have brought it up.

The main selling point for Typhlosion would definitely be his powerful Eruption, which hits incredibly hard when he dons a pair of Choice Specs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 140-165 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know this is probably not the best Seismitoad spread, but it does show how it can do up to 40% to even bulky resisters.

As well, all 1/4 resisters take a ton from HP Grass
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Carracosta: 496-584 (171 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I know being able to do a ton of damage doesn't make something broken, but it just goes to show that few things can avoid a 2 hit KO.

No, I have heard people say how Assault Vest users can take him head to head,
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 108-127 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 2.5% chance to 4HKO
Once again, bad spread, I know. But keep in mind, Hariyama can take Eruptions, but he lacks recovery, so you would be hard pressed to preserve him throughout the match. All your opponent would need to do would be to slowly wear down your Fire resist.

And even if you do manage to wear down his HP to where his Eruption couldn't do much...
252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 118-139 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93.6% chance to 4HKO
It hits even harder once Blaze activates.

While Typhlosion may hit incredibly hard, he can be revenged, right? Not always, as he can still effectively run a Scarf set to out speed his would-be revenger.

But Typhlosion is not without flaw, I get that.
His weakness to Stealth Rock means he can't keep switching forever, but Defog and Rapid Spin exist.
If he runs Specs, he may hit hard, but he gets out sped by a lot more.
If he runs Scarf, he doesn't hit as hard.
Basically all he does is Erupt-spam, so he is somewhat predictable.

Remember, this is just MY opinion, no need to go overboard on it, if you disagree on an aspect of it, please use constructive criticism. Also, I can edit my post with the standard spread for AV-Hari if someone would tell me what it is. I am not saying "Ban Typhlosion" I am just laying out my thoughts on him.

The standard Yama spread is 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD, with 252 Atk / 252 SpD letting it take M-Camerupt's Earth Power better.
The main reason people want Typhlosion gone is not because nothing walls it, as a lot of popular stuff like Yama, SpD Rhydon, SpD Seismitoad, M-Camerupt, Ninetales, etc. check or counter it, but because of the huge strain it puts on teambuilding, making most teams very formulaic and similar. I don't know if I'd ban it, but I'm all for suspecting it, and I'm curious to see a meta without Typh.

 

[Brawlfest]

.
The standard Yama spread is 252 Atk / 128 Def / 128 SpD, with 252 Atk / 252 SpD letting it take M-Camerupt's Earth Power better.
The main reason people want Typhlosion gone is not because nothing walls it, as a lot of popular stuff like Yama, SpD Rhydon, SpD Seismitoad, M-Camerupt, Ninetales, etc. check or counter it, but because of the huge strain it puts on teambuilding, making most teams very formulaic and similar. I don't know if I'd ban it, but I'm all for suspecting it, and I'm curious to see a meta without Typh.

The main reason why people want it gone isn't because it's limited towards teambuilding. Frankly, the metagame has literally a bazilion ways to offensively and defensively deal with Typhlosion, all relatively consistent. The primary issue is similar to that of BW Charizard. Off the bat, it has more power than nearly any other pokemon in the metagame with an insanely high speed to match. This power is taken to the extreme that even "solid" checks can be easily 3HKOed without issues asked, and well predicted coverage in HP Grass, Extrasensory, and Nature Power let it get past a slew of others.

Furthermore, unlike other strong fire types that can be worn down with hazards and repeated attacks, it can actually use blaze to bypass this issue, becoming even more of a threat in that a blaze boosted Fire Blast is even stronger than its original Eruption, giving it a hard hit no matter how you wear it down..

I think your post makes sense, but the suspect isn't as much for the strain it puts on teambuilding but that it does one job absurdly well, and even relatively solid counters can easily be worn down by teammates with minimal support. Furthermore, it can take advantage of detrimental situations to it by abusing blaze, furthering the extent of difficulty to minimize its damage output.

 

[Teddeh]

Although typhlosion is very powerful with it's eruptions, wouldn't it just mean that the metagame leans towards fire types like pyroar with similar damage output and faster speed with a dual stab to go with it? I don't think it's just typhlosion that the meta is crippled by when thinking about it in the team builder, but specially offensive fire types in general since we have 3 very good ones.

It would simply mean a shift in which fire types would be more popular and as a result I don't necessarily think that it will strain our teambuilding any less if we banned typhlosion and kept pyroar and magmortar. Things like hariyama won't be used any less and it would just mean less typhlosion, which isn't really a broken pokemon since we've been dealing with it since nu alpha, would be banned. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for improving the meta because having to build with the same mons on every team without the fear of losing to a top tier threat has made this meta stale, but i don't think that potentially banning typhlosion will mean less fire type checks on your team since we have 2 very good ones right behind it.

 

[CanadianWifier]

Although typhlosion is very powerful with it's eruptions, wouldn't it just mean that the metagame leans towards fire types like pyroar with similar damage output and faster speed with a dual stab to go with it? i don't think that potentially banning typhlosion will mean less fire type checks on your team since we have 2 very good ones right behind it.

The 'two right behind it' also aren't firing off Base 108 SpAtk Choice Specs Eruptions or Blaze Fire Blasts. Typhlosion is the most popular because it's in another league from the other fire-types: it hits a fuckload harder than Pyroar ever dreams of hitting [not to mention it doesn't have to worry about missing its main STAB move], and it's much faster than Magmortar. Sure, Ninetails / Pyroar / Magmortor / Emboar? will try to step up and fill the void if Typh leaves, but they each have flaws that would prevent them from being as suffocating as Typhlosion currently is on teambuilding.

 

[Brawlfest]

Although typhlosion is very powerful with it's eruptions, wouldn't it just mean that the metagame leans towards fire types like pyroar with similar damage output and faster speed with a dual stab to go with it? I don't think it's just typhlosion that the meta is crippled by when thinking about it in the team builder, but specially offensive fire types in general since we have 3 very good ones.

It would simply mean a shift in which fire types would be more popular and as a result I don't necessarily think that it will strain our teambuilding any less if we banned typhlosion and kept pyroar and magmortar. Things like hariyama won't be used any less and it would just mean less typhlosion, which isn't really a broken pokemon since we've been dealing with it since nu alpha, would be banned. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for improving the meta because having to build with the same mons on every team without the fear of losing to a top tier threat has made this meta stale, but i don't think that potentially banning typhlosion will mean less fire type checks on your team since we have 2 very good ones right behind it.

The damage output of Pyroar is nowhere close to similar. Its single unboosted Fire Blast is much weaker in comparison to either a Eruption or Blaze Fire Blast, and furthermore its access to only its STAB Hyper Voice [not necessarily a bad thing] makes it lose out on some sick coverage that Typh had access to.

Magmortar I don't fear will be an issue due to its low speed tier.

 

[Teddeh]

My point of the matter is although yes typhlosion is the most powerful of the bunch, specs maggy or specs pyroar's fire move will still hurt like a bitch and it means that you will still have to prepare for it in the team builder. Just because typhlosion goes would mean you stop preparing for a fire type nuke because there are still other fire type nukes >.> I was just saying that this means that the team building argument is a bad one since you still have to prepare for the chance of a fire type in general, not specifically for typhlosion.

Edit:
Supporting calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 192-227 (57.8 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 217-256 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 159-188 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

Yes they're not as powerful but they still hit like a truck and it would be something that NU would still need to prepare for if typhlosion were to go

 

[Fling]

My point of the matter is although yes typhlosion is the most powerful of the bunch, specs maggy or specs pyroar's fire move will still hurt like a bitch and it means that you will still have to prepare for it in the team builder. Just because typhlosion goes would mean you stop preparing for a fire type nuke because there are still other fire type nukes >.> I was just saying that this means that the team building argument is a bad one since you still have to prepare for the chance of a fire type in general, not specifically for typhlosion.

Edit:
Supporting calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 192-227 (57.8 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 217-256 (65.3 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 159-188 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO

Yes they're not as powerful but they still hit like a truck and it would be something that NU would still need to prepare for if typhlosion were to go

Just to nitpick about the mag calc, it should probably be life orb due to specs really neutering it, especially with nearly every team running mantine.

 

[The Goomy]

The 'two right behind it' also aren't firing off Base 108 SpAtk Choice Specs Eruptions or Blaze Fire Blasts. Typhlosion is the most popular because it's in another league from the other fire-types: it hits a fuckload harder than Pyroar ever dreams of hitting [not to mention it doesn't have to worry about missing its main STAB move], and it's much faster than Magmortar. Sure, Ninetails / Pyroar / Magmortor / Emboar? will try to step up and fill the void if Typh leaves, but they each have flaws that would prevent them from being as suffocating as Typhlosion currently is on teambuilding.

I actually think Magmortar is better than Typh in this meta since it can beat Mantine-Steelix cores, as well as 2hko Yama with Psychic. Additionally, no-one is running fast mons right now because they get walled by Steelix-Mantine core. o.o

 

[Zenza]

Why are we comparing mag and typh just because they're special fire type attackers? Obviously mag mortar is a better core breaker it doesn't make it a better overal Pokemon than typh lol

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Why are we comparing mag and typh just because they're special fire type attackers? Obviously mag mortar is a better core breaker it doesn't make it a better overal Pokemon than typh lol

That is why they're being compared. Magmortar has one of the most powerful STAB Fire nukes in the metagame, and the discussion atm is basically "what would happen if we banned Typh," who is used primarily for his powerful STAB Fire nukes. Magmortar, Pyoar and friends would definitely see more usage at least at first if Typhlosion were to go, which is why people are preemptively looking at how well they can step up and fill its shoes.

 

[ryan]

You can predict the future of the metagame all you want, but none of it matters because none of us can know for sure what would happen. It's equally likely that Fire-types would decrease massively in popularity if Typhlosion left the tier because none of them come close to it. Typhlosion sees so much usage because it's really easy to bring it in and kill shit--not because it's a Fire-type. In the same way, when Shiftry left NU, nothing "replaced it" as an offensive Grass-type because nothing could come close to how effective it was. Yes, Sceptile usage rose, but that doesn't mean that Sceptile suddenly became the top of the metagame. That doesn't mean you didn't have to prepare for offensive Grass-types; it's dumb to think that the top x-type Pokemon leaving means x type becomes irrelevant (barring Slurpuff because it was the only offensive Fairy-type we had).

So no, Typhlosion leaving NU wouldn't mean that NU would become filled with Pyroar and Magmortar. They'd at least go up a bit in viability, but they wouldn't necessarily become top-tier because they would still have the same problems they did with Typhlosion around. I don't understand why people think we need direct replacements for things when the metagame shifts and we lose things. You wouldn't just slap a Keldeo on a Greninja team in OU after its ban and expect the team to function roughly the same, and you wouldn't just slap a Pyroar on a team that had Typhlosion if Typhlosion left NU. Players adjust to the change in the metagame and use new teams.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

You wouldn't just slap a Keldeo on a Greninja team in OU after its ban and expect the team to function roughly the same, and you wouldn't just slap a Pyroar on a team that had Typhlosion if Typhlosion left NU. Players adjust to the change in the metagame and use new teams.

You know a bunch of lazy players do this whenever there's a ban (they are mostly low on ladder, to be fair). They'll probably find out quickly that they shouldn't have, which is why I said the usage would go up "at least at first," because it will thanks to that tendency. They see that Typhlosion is used because of his STAB Fire nukes are amazing, so they think if they just add Ninetales or something they're golden.

Discussions/comparisons/theorymonning like in this thread about why that isn't the case are part of why more experienced players don't do that. I could've been more clear, but whatever.

 

[The Goomy]

I still find it funny that people are discounting Magmortar as bad when it beats every common balance core there is right now. Including the omnipresent SteelixMantine core. Also, it's "middling" speed isn't even a bad thing in this tier since everything is so slow right now. It also beats Lilli, and even Typh itself

 

[DiscoDucky]

Does NU still have 9 problems?

 

[ryan]

You know a bunch of lazy players do this whenever there's a ban (they are mostly low on ladder, to be fair). They'll probably find out quickly that they shouldn't have, which is why I said the usage would go up "at least at first," because it will thanks to that tendency. They see that Typhlosion is used because of his STAB Fire nukes are amazing, so they think if they just add Ninetales or something they're golden.

Discussions/comparisons/theorymonning like in this thread about why that isn't the case are part of why more experienced players don't do that. I could've been more clear, but whatever.

fwiw my post wasn't completely directed at you. not trying to rustle your jimmies or anything.

 

[testsubordinate]

God I am so happy people are talking about Typhlosion and NU Fires in general. I thought I was the only one sick of Typh...

 

[Jim E. Russler]

fwiw my post wasn't completely directed at you. not trying to rustle your jimmies or anything.

Yeah, it's all good.

 

[Swagodile]

Stuff that may rise to RU: Granbull (3.84%)
Stuff that may drop to NU: Skuntank (3.07%), Virizion (2.64%), Banette (2.59%)

 

[Choice Banned]

Wait, is the tier shift in February or 3 months from January?
(since idk how the tiers are going in ORAS with the shifts each month)

 

[boltsandbombers]

Wait, is the tier shift in February or 3 months from January?
(since idk how the tiers are going in ORAS with the shifts each month)

Tier shift is in February, it should be posted in the next day or two.

We had a tier shift in January because ORAS changes, but from now on its back to the 3 month cycle.

 

[Grimey]

Stuff that may rise to RU: Granbull (3.84%)
Stuff that may drop to NU: Skuntank (3.07%), Virizion (2.64%), Banette (2.59%)

That's all? I thought we'd be seeing a little bit more, like Mawile/Claydol.. :(

 

[Evan.]

That's all? I thought we'd be seeing a little bit more, like Mawile/Claydol.. :(

mawile should drop as well, it doesn't show any RU usage because it only came to RU through last month's usage update. As for claydol/hitmonchan i dont expect them to drop as RU loves to keep their shitty/outclassed spinners. @_@

 

[CanadianWifier]

CAN YOU FEEL THE MAWILE HYPE!!?!?
Mawile @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Naughty / Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast / Swords Dance

So for the next few weeks until Mega-Lix gets suspected and fucks off to BL3, Fire Blast is probably the going to be the best option in the last slot; SD is gonna make this things super killer once MLix goes, though - for instance being able OHKO Defensive Seismitoad after Rocks with +2 Play Rough 65% of the time. Is also gets a super diverse movepool: Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Baton Pass, Fire Blast, Play Rough, Iron Head, Sucker Punch, Focus Punch, Knock Off, Stealth Rock, and Pain Split are some highlights. Works on Balance, Stall, Offense, and hell even BP quick pass teams appreciate it, lol. Can't wait to finally have this baby in NU :]

calc vs m-lix + seis

0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 352-417 (87.7 - 103.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock