Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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Adding on to what other people have said, I think its also important to note that if you are using full Baton Pass, and you make a mistake, there is really damn good chance you will lose. Oftentimes when you make a mistake while using full Baton Pass, something dies or something gets Taunted/Encored, and the chain is interrupted, which is really hard to recover from. Baton Pass is simply too volatile to be considered broken. Sure, making a mistake while using any other playstyle can cost you the game, but other playstyles can recover from mistakes. I've done it plenty of times, and I'm sure others have too.
 
I'd just like to throw my 2 cents into the ring regarding baton pass, seeing how i'm the first one who spammed it on the ladder oh so long ago.

Personally, I think Baton Pass should be limited to 3 pokémon per team. A bp team can be extremely hard to stop unless you're equipped with the right tools to combat it and even then, it's not an easy win. For the next few examples, I'll be referencing my bp team, which is optimized to the best it can be imo.

dying flames (Torchic) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 236 Spe
Bold Nature
- Curse / Will-o-Wisp / Fire Blast
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

inescapable (Munna) @ Eviolite
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Barrier
- Moonlight
- Baton Pass

mindless abuse (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Taunt
- Baton Pass

lonely skies (Natu) @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpA / 76 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stored Power
- Heat Wave
- Calm Mind
- Roost

neverending (Togepi) @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 80 Def / 40 SpA / 120 Spe
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Baton Pass
- Soft-Boiled

fleeting dreams (Mime Jr.) @ Eviolite
Ability: Soundproof
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
- Barrier


These are my responses to the two proposed ways of beating bp plus the unmentioned threat of powerful sweepers. I apologize in advance if this is jumbled and confusing; I'm just throwing thoughts into this post without any organization or planning.

Firstly, I've seen some claims running through this thread that phazing is a complete stop to bp. This notion is wrong. Phazing can be beaten in the long run; it just take a little patience to wait for an opening. There are 2 viable mons that consistently run phazing in LC: Hippopotas and Munchlax, both of whom are only seen on stall. The way to beat phazer's is through the use of Natu's Magic Bounce or Mime Jr's Taunt (and Taunt Foo if you run that). Accumulating boosts using the Taunt users and then passing into Natu is generally an easy win against defensive teams with phazers. Finding an opening to gain boosts isn't too hard as Natu hardwalls Hippo and Mienfoo scares Munchlax, so a smart double switch or just saccing a useless member can bring a favorable matchup to boost. Mime Jr. provides a sponge for random Roar users and both fairy types are D-Tail sponges, so d-tail users aren't threats. Phazing is definitely a roadblock to bp if the rest of the opposing team is able to prevent the tauntmons or Natu from boosting but the only team I can think of that can do that is Kaleidoscope due to the dual darks+hippo (even it can be beat by bp if tauntfoo is run alongside mime jr.). If the opponent lets the chain progress then Natu wins. Phazing is definitely not the end all bp counter some claim it to be.


Taunt users: Mienfoo, Cottonee, Abra, Gastly. Encore users: Cottonee.

These are definitely annoying for bp because they hinder it's ability to pass around and is much more dangerous to bp than phazing imo. Playing around Cotton requires a lot of passing around if you think it's going to come in to prevent encore and hard switching Natu in if it's going to Encore and make you lose an integral member to a switch-in. Fire Blast can be run on Torchic to OHKO predicted Cotton switch-ins. WoWing then stalling with Natu can also kill Cotton. Taunt Abra and Gastly are bp counters; the only way to win is to kill them with a boosted mon. Tauntfoo can be played around using Togepi and passing into Psychics when you have boosts.


Threatening Sweepers: Shellder, Fletchling, Omanyte, Zigzagoon, NP Gunk

Sweepers can be very hard for bp teams to overcome unless they get correct mon in against them before they begin boosting. If a chain starts because the opponent leads with a non-threatening lead, sweepers are generally nullified as threats. However, a lead sweeper (think shell smashers, fletch) that takes advantage of Torchic can stop the chain completely. Using WoW Torchic negates this threat to an extent, but bp is forced to lead Munna against Fletch, Shellder, and Zigzagoon to Barrier up alongside their boosts (Munna wins in the end) so they are not swept. Lead NP Gunk is 2HKO by Natu's unboosted Stored Power. Omanyte requires lead Foo to beat it as Foo 2HKOs and tanks all its moves bar Hydro Pump at +2 (you still have a decent 63% chance to beat Hydro Omantye). Because of bp's reliance on lead matchup to beat certain sweepers, it can lose if a team packs multiple threats and leads one the bp user doesn't expect; however, the bp user wins if he wins the guessing game.


Any team that doesn't have one of the above. Most "fair" builds generally lose to bp as they can't keep up with the chain and will eventually succumb to a Stored Power user after enough boosts. gl ladder!


After looking at BP as a playstyle, I think it deserves to be nerfed in some way. It's not healthy for the meta in any way, shape, or form and forces matchup to be a defining factor in matches. It is hard to stop for any team without one of the above answers to it and can even beat some of its supposed checks. While there are mons that flat out beat it (Taunt Abra, Gastly), including them can hamper teambuilding. It's not fun to play against and encourages matchup reliance, forcing newer players that encounter it away from LC imo.

Vs Fender using Cottonee: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-182627805

Vs Cotton and Shellder (not a great match but w/e): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-183322480

Vs T-Spikes: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-183027429

Vs Obvious Power: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-182632665

Vs Tahu: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-182991009

Vs SuperPowerDude (got crit but had it won bar that): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-182969386

Vs Joyless: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-182966739


Just some thoughts on bp and again sorry for cluttered thoughts and writing. I just sort of threw up my thoughts into this post.


Kopaka has some innovation in the flex slots (Natu, Togepi) that lets him beat some of the stuff bp struggles against which he should explain here imo.
 
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I'm saving up for a bigger post on all of the suspects, but I'd just like to point out that anecdotal experience on the ladder (which is very much shit in the first place, and is especially shit when it's people who are afk playing 5 games at once to get reqs) does not give much insight into the "brokeness" of something.

And I hate to say it, Mienfoo and Pawniad are already ridiculous to nominate for reasons I've stated already (and will reiterate closer to the 6th), but unlike those two top-tier mons, BP is not even 'good' (and I've used full BP chains as much as anyone so don't tell me to "use it and find out"). You literally just press the Rock Blast button, Aqua Jet, Taunt, or Swords Dance with Fletchling to bypass the speed and not care about Protect. I won't even suggest Roar or Encore because you shouldn't give enough of a fuck about BP to prepare for it like that.
 
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Nani Man

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Removed the 'noncompetitve' part of my post since apparently theirs a different canotation to what it means for some people (reworded something too, posted it at 2am haha). Anyway, good to see some discussion on Berry Juice! I want to firstly say though that I am not supporting a ban on Mienfoo/Pawniard/Berry Juice (hence why i outlined perks/downfalls), but rather explaining why it got my attention and to see other prominent players thoughts. After all, this thread is for discussion.

Since Corporal Levi was the only one to really talk about Pawniard/Berry Juice after my post, I wanted to reply to you about some stuff you said. First of all, you say Sun teams and bulky offense are superior to Pawniard, but what I don't get is Pawniard can be apart of bulky offense and sun teams are that dangerous only when sun is up. Those things you say are situational anyway and I don't see why this should discredit it? You are comparing team playstyles to a single pokemon which really doesn't make sense. Also, Pawniard doesn't block Defog indeed, but you run the risk of a Defiant boost and getting slapped with Iron Head/Knock Off/a potential SD if appropriate, and then this leaves a big dent, killing your defogger or something else. You also can't presume the hazard setter is dead because what if it isn't? Things called ghost types exist and can block Rapid Spin. Switching in against Archen is a 50/50 so it's not a good argument. Vullaby is a good check/counter, and can kill Pawniard and/or remove hazards. Substitute on faster pokemon is a very good countermeasure though this can force Sucker Punch mind games. Status moves are annoying as well (especially Sleep Powder), but this is a 6v6 format and Pawniard is allowed to switch out. And yes, you admitting that a team should always have a Fighting type to check Pawniard is probably indicative of its strength. Ponyta is troublesome and is a great counter since it has access to Will-O-Wisp and Morning Sun.


In regards to Berry Juice, why do you say it doesn't come close to giving a second life? That's completely false. Ok, great, extremely powerful attackers exist, but some don't as well. You won't setup against a sweeper, that's just stupid. You wait for the right moment and setup when the enemy has lost its priority users and potential sashes are broken (assuming you don't have a multi hitting move). Comparing Berry Juice to Eviolite makes no sense to me. They are completely different and used for different purposes. Now you say Belly Drum and SturdyJuice is easy to play around. Sure, preserve the priority/hazards/your focus sashers on the field and you got this. That will be hard to do when you have five enemy pokemon trying to break those conditions you have to "easily play around it". Zigzagzoon is one pokemon out of many that can do this, and if that's what the team is aiming for, then it will definitely win once/if those checks are removed. I still think Mienfoo/Pawniard/Berry Juice are top threats so I hope more people discuss this. Do I support a ban on either? Not at the moment. Just, as I said before, stating what got my attention and wanted to spark some discussion.
 

leremyju

Banned deucer.
Pawn- Amazing but not broken.

Foo- Mienfoo runs so many sets and can fulfill multiple roles but it has its plethora of checks and revenge killers if not scarfed. It's a great mon that fits well but not broken.

Sprout- in the sun this has no switch ins but it requires quite a bit of team support and is not broken like ttangela was.

Baton Pass- long chains are dumb. Unfortunately I lost to one because someone double protected his torchic when I dragon danced with scrafty :/ It's annoying as hell but not broken.

Chou switching on Chou- Just double to your diglett or drilbur if ur good enough.

Trappers- trappers are generally annoying and force dumb decisions. Hypothetical situation: if my croagunk kills pawniard, gothita kills me. If croagunk dies mienfoo is a huge threat to my team, but if I don't kill pawniard, that threatens my team. This is just an example of the difficult decisions the possibility of trapping forces players to make. I think it's actually quite unhealthy. I don't think it is ban worthy, but I'd like to see it suspected.

Fletch- not a problem.

Sturdy + Berry Juice- this is extremely annoying but lots of ways to play around.

Magic Guard + Focus Sash- yes Abra is probably the best revenger in the tier but honestly it doesn't need a ban. Abra is frail as shit and hell just sac your gunk and use VWave and not its not as threatening.

Snivy- this thing is very dangerous but it needs a huge amount of support.
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
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I didn't mean to say that hazard stacking offense was any worse than other common archetypes, which bulky offense and Sun were simply examples of, nor did I try to directly compare Pawniard to entire teams. What I meant to say was that hazard stacking offense certainly isn't better than the other common archetypes, either, and certainly not a guaranteed win like several posts are making it out to be, and that even if it was, Pawniard is nowhere near the make-or-break factor anyway, given how the archetype relies just as much on other Pokemon, such as the spinblocker and of course the hazard setter. Although Pawniard can absolutely be used effectively on other forms of offense and even on certain variants of semi-stall that don't rely on hazards, as demonstrated by Kaleidoscope, I don't think it would at all be fair to argue that it pulls its weight more than the upper A+ Pokemon on these kinds of teams. A Pawniard boosted from Defog is definitely threatening but not unstoppable, and is actually still fairly prone to being revenge-killed by common Pokemon; considering how predictable and frail suicide leads are, it's usually safe to assume that they'll be fainted or at least weakened beyond repair quite early in the match, because the opponent will hopefully not just sit there and allow Dwebble or Surskit to have a field day, and regardless, even for Pawniard's most notable switch-in opportunity in Defog, it's a risky 50/50. Although Pawniard certainly has teammates, literally every Pokemon, sweeper or otherwise, has access to them as well, and Pawniard is generally outlasted by most of its checks (Ponyta gets Morning Sun, Mienfoo gets Regenerator and Drain Punch, Timburr gets Drain Punch, etc.), so unless you're willing to rely solely on revenge-kills and slow Voltturns, it often won't be long before Pawniard is taken down unless you are able to effectively get rid of these checks by outplaying your opponent. Fighting-types are definitely not solely used because of Pawniard; they were hugely popular in gen 5 when Pawniard was relevant but not great, and they have numerous advantages that have nothing to do with Pawniard, meaning that even if Pawniard does leave the tier, they would remain similarly viable; Mienfoo is ridiculously versatile, is able to fill multiple roles effectively and has enormous survivability, Timburr is probably the single most threatening and easily built around sweeper in LC on top of still being able to support offensive defensive teams alike, Croagunk is able to check the aforementioned Fighting-types along with something like half the metagame due to its excellent typing and movepool, and Pancham is pretty cute I guess.

I compared Berry Juice and Eviolite because the focus of both items is to increase the holder's lifespan as opposed to increasing damage output or something, but since it looks like the argument is going in the direction of individual abusers being broken, I'll try to go over those instead.
Magnemite - The only set that actually acts as a threatening sweeper is Choice Scarf Magnemite, which isn't really relevant. The Sturdyjuice set is pretty much limited to a utility check and safety net, and is easily played around, even outright walled by quite a few things due to the lack of Analytic.
Tirtouga - The only things it can actually set up on within A-rank without being put into revenge-killing range (ie not having Berry Juice popped) are Spritzee and non-HP Grass Fletchling, and then a few Choice Scarf users locked into the wrong move, which would just be a bad play on the opponent's part unless you've forced them into such a position by drastically outplaying them. On top of that, eliminating a fair number of important priority users, keeping hazards on the opponent's side, maintaining a clear field on your side, AND weakening specific checks that beat Tirtouga anyway is no easy feat; there's a reason why Omanyte and Shellder are usually more favoured as primary wincons.
Dwebble - The Shell Smash set is actually unable to OHKO most important Pokemon, including bulky Fighting-types, bulky Grass-types, Ground-types, bulky Water-types minus Chinchou, Bulky Fairy-types, and Porygon. It's also extremely easy to simply not pop Berry Juice and then hit it with priority, because unlike Tirtouga, it doesn't even have Aqua Jet or a resistance to Acrobatics to bypass important priority attacks. It takes a very poorly built opposing team or a metric ton of support for Shell Smash Dwebble to actually pull off a sweep. The hazard setter is incredibly predictable and easy to limit to a single layer of hazards early on, and even if this doesn't happen, it's usually offset by the top notch options we have to remove hazards, as well as the generally lower amount of damage hazards deal due to the low HP numbers.
Pretty much every other sturdyjuice user, like Onix or Geodude, is extremely limited in what it can do and very niche.
Zigzagoon - You're going to need to put a lot of work into removing Zigzagoon's checks and counters, and every single one of them has to be eliminated, because Zigzagoon gets exactly one chance to sweep. Pursuit, hazards, Steel-type lures, Knock Off support, toxic spikes removal, a means to remove either Rock-types or Fake Out users depending on the last coverage move, and usually a Memento user are all things Zigzagoon needs to be provided for it to have a decent shot at sweeping, which will take up an entire team, and let's just hope you can cover opposing sweepers as well.
Magby - Magby is actually quite threatening after set-up; the issue is that its high speed is what makes it so threatening, and to invest in speed, it has to forgo bulk, making actually setting up a very difficult task. Even then, because it will usually be Belly Drum that's activating Berry Juice, banning Berry Juice won't actually affect Magby too much because Oran Berry will produce the exact same result (dead Magby).
You have to keep in mind for all of these that while you're playing towards a win with your wincon, your opponent hopefully won't just be casually clicking button arbitrarily and letting you have your way; they'll be trying to figure out their own game plan as well. Going back to the Zigzagoon example, while you might be thinking to yourself, "wow cool, once I get hazards on the field, all I have to do is bring Abra to its sash, Knock Off Timburr, slightly weaken Skrep and Memento something, I can sweep with Zigzagoon", your opponent will probably be thinking something closer to, "weaken Croagunk a bit and I have the win". Of course, some teams are weaker to Zigzagoon than others, but team match-up will always come into the equation to some extent, and there is absolutely the possibility to play around Zigzagoon teams just as there is the possibility to play around other teams built around a specific Pokemon.
Anyway, if I came off as harsh or unwelcoming, I didn't mean to; I'm just trying to give my thoughts on your nominations.
ah you sac a mon just to break the sash seems reasonable
Yes, because the Abra user has already ditched something to get Abra in
 

macle

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hi i made some graphs for QuoteCS since he likes graphs and they are educational.



This graph shows what a normal no broken threat's usage would look like. Players see that teams are weak to a certain pokemon / playstyle / whatever and start using the Pokemon more. Eventually more people start using counters to that Pokemon and the Pokemon's usage drops as the counter's usage increases. Now lets look at a broken Pokemon's usage.



This graph shows a broken mons usage. As it gets introduced / major counters get banned / people actually use it, its usage rises. People start packing counters for it on their teams but its able to beat out its counters / still provide extreme team help so its usage never falls.
 
Mienfoo may not out the gate be able to beat it's counters, but with coverage it can seriously dent a lot of them. I find the majority of Mienfoo's switch-ins don't actually really beat it, just force it out with fear of a burn/para. You can smack Ponyta or Larvesta with Stone Edge, hit ghosts with Knock Off, and once you lose your Eviolite you can hit bulkier fighters with Acrobatics. Without Eviolite a lot of things aren't even counters anymore, Spritzee has a high chance to be 2HKO'd by Poison Jab. It's much harder to beat Mienfoo without Eviolite, especially because its most common stab heals it.

And it doesn't even matter if Mienfoo can beat it's counters. The combination of 17 speed, U-turn and Regenerator means Mienfoo can easily avoid any bulky counters.
 
I think we really need to get out of the habit of saying that coverage= brokenness. Y'all have to realize that Mienfoo suffers from four move slot syndrome. It cannot run all the moves it wants. Unlike mons like Meditite, it has many different counters.

Foo can try to outmanuveur checks, but it always had to deal with being a weak link late game. Your points are really overstating Foo's capability.
 
I wasn't trying to indicate Minefoo was broken, simply that it has the ability to beat/outplay counters. Clearly you can't beat everything, but you do have the ability to choose what mons beat/counter you.
 
I wasn't trying to indicate Minefoo was broken, simply that it has the ability to beat/outplay counters. Clearly you can't beat everything, but you do have the ability to choose what mons beat/counter you.
You were arguing with Mienfoo fitting the description, but w/e so long as we acknowledge that foo isn't broken.
 
I read you with real interest. I agree with idea that actual LC is well-balanced, fun-filled and always various. But I like this discussion because it allows for LC players to choose the suspect, and we have a discussion thread really interesting; we can compare our thoughts and that's always a good thing.

If I have to say one thing (threatened!) I would pay attention around BJ + Sturdy. Perhaps it's annoying, there are many Sturdy Smash pokemon that get access to it but I don't know if this combination could be evaluated for a suspect.
 
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Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I read you with real interest. I agree with idea that actual LC is well-balanced, fun-filled and always various. But I like this discussion because it allows for LC players to choose the suspect, and we have a discussion thread really interesting; we can compare our thoughts and that's always a good thing.

If I have to say one thing (threatened!) I would pay attention around BJ + Sturdy. Perhaps it's annoying, there are many Sturdy Smash pokemon that get access to it but I don't know if this combination could be evaluated for a suspect.
Except SturdyJuice is very well handled: SR breaks the Sturdy, Smash weakens their defenses making them easier to revenge. Even then, most Sturdy mons are Rock types who have 3 common weaknesses in Fighting, Ground, and Water. The exceptions (Bergimite / Pineco) are spinners who cant take a neutral hit well, or Magnemite who is still weak to Ground x4 and Fighting x2. If anything Fighting types are a sort of antithesis to SturdyJuicers. Also note that Knock Off will break Sturdy and also relieve them of their Berry Juice, making the KO easier to grasp. Last but not least, Mold Breaker ignores Sturdy. So there are a bunch of options to stop this set up. It used to be considered broken because we didnt have an efficacious way of handling it, but now there's so many clear options, it's hard to consider this to be anything close to being broken. At least in my opinion.
 
Here is my post on what people have been talking about. I think that it's to the community to keep the nomination process as "what is broken". Leave the "health of the metagame" calls to the council who are more qualified to make that call once the "brokeness" argument is brought up by us.

One of the more mentioned potential suspect is Mienfoo. This is both surprising, because Mienfoo is not overwhelming in any way and does not stick out like anything else we've talked about banning, and not surprising at all, because people have a tendency to want to suspect the thing that has top usage regardless of whether its Mienfoo or Magikarp. I made a pretty general argument about Mienfoo here:

Since when does 'Mienfoo is possibly (even definitely) the best and easiest to use Pokemon in the metagame' all of the sudden make it ban-worthy?

I fail to see the logic to which that conclusion follows. Just because something is the best and safest, does not make it unhealthy for the metagame or even uncompetitive.
I think in general, brokeness should be the primary factor for nominating something as a suspect. If the council has a decision - maybe it can be persuaded by the "healthy for the metagame" argument, but a Pokemon should not be talked about if people don't think it's broken. I definitely don't care what randomuser72 who's played lc for like a month thinks is "healthy for the metagame".

I also think it's a Pokemon which has very clear counters and can even be set-up bait for some. Effective U-turn use requires prediction as much as anything does. Throwing a U-turn versus a set up Pokemon like Fletchling or Pawniard versus Drain Punching can be a game-losing move as much as anything else. It cannot be both fast and incredibly bulky. It cannot be slow and effectively use Taunt and Stone Edge/HJK/any other filler move besides Fake Out or safely check things like SD Pawniard. It cannot be fast and do shit like survive Gothita's Psychic among other things. SD Pass is an innovation that I'll admit I use sometimes but if you see it coming it's really hard to fall victim to it and it loses a shit load of viability outside of BPing, like Fake Out, Taunt, and most importantly, U-turn.

And I'm saying this preemptively because I expect it to be brought up that "Gligar was banned for a multitude of reasons (in gens 5 and 6) not necessarily being "broken" in one aspect". I think it's important to point out that Gligar had a few moves and a few sets, that if you throw out the wrong move, you actually lose the game. It was also generally impossible to tell which set it was (SD pass for foo is obviously only to be used with a few specific Pokemon). The consequences for sending the wrong Pokemon against Mienfoo is usually getting something Knocked Off or taking residual damage and still don't momentum. Sure those are good situations but what difference is that from any other prediction? They don't brake a game, at least not immediately. (Knocking off an opposing mienfoo for a Tirt sweep or something needs more than just that knock off)

I think the argument for Mienfoo is this: the power of Mienfoo is not an offensive one, it is a defensive one. If you fuck up using Mienfoo, it is more forgiving because of Regenerator. I do not blame people for thinking this is "frustrating". However, I think it requires exaggeration for that sole fact to be grounds enough for banning it. If Mienfoo was threatening enough for it to come in and do serious damage or actually be a failsafe stop to everything then I'd see that. However, against an equally skilled player it has serious problems that cannot be overcome by Regenerator (like frailty without Eviolite, etc), that can even be exploited by Pokemon like Trubbish, Gothita, and even mons like Honedge and ZHB Vahna.
The only thing I perhaps left out is that it's really only useful for a certain part of the game. Don't get me wrong, as i said it's really useful and forgiving with errors for the first part of the game. However, at the end of the game, at best it's something to sacrifice / chip damage with Fake Out and at worst its a liability against things like CM Spritzee or SD Fletchling.


I don't think there's too much to say about this. It is a powerful utility Pokemon with an incredible tool in STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch. However, to say it's more than that is a bit of an exaggeration. To survive many hits, Pawniard needs Eviolite and it has no recovery. It cannot repeatedly switch into things like Fletchling or HP Fighting-less Gastly.

Another problem with Pawniard is that its utility is limited by its moveslot. Brick Break-less Pawniard loses versus other Pawniard. Pursuit-less Pawniard does not give it anything to keep Fletchling from Overheating / chipping and switching out - which can be very important as Pawniard has no recovery. Swords Dance-less Pawniard loses its sweeping potential late game, especially versus things like Fletchling and Mienfoo who can KO it and it needs the +2 Sucker Punch to bypass.

Frankly, all I really needed to mention is the 4x fighting-type weakness. Vullaby, Fletchling, Abra, and Gastly simply need to throw on HP Fighting to bypass this check of theirs. Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch on the common Fighting-types it actually outpaces, and it it just isn't quite powerful enough to KO bulky Mienfoo.

Great mon, very limited in usefulness by the metagame.


Abra is a great Pokemon, much like Mienfoo and Pawniard, but it lacks the typing to fully take advantage of Magic Guard + Sash. It also has 4 mss in the sense that it can't guard against Fake Out with Protect, have HP Fighting for Pawniard, guard against Scraggy with Dazzling Gleam, hit Honedge / Gothita / Psychics with Shadow Ball.

It can't 2HKO things like Porygon or Spritzee (iirc). It can't deal with Scraggy, Pawniard, Honedge, and have Protect at the same time.

Most importantly, it lacks the utility that Pawniard and Mienfoo have. It can't switch into anything except for Status. That is the critical downside, in my opinion.


Here's my argument on these two mons.

Oh god not this again. I can't decide if we are talking about suspecting because we're bored or dull (or both).

I think this mentality is completely naive. We have used Gothita and know how strong it is and suspecting it won't change shit from our point of view.

It is blatantly obvious that you only want to suspect something you think is banworthy.

Gothita and Diglett are both revenge killers of different Pokemon (frankly, them operating "differently" is a little overstated). You can actually use them fairly interchangeably on a team (I've actually tested that extensively). The thing that's consistent with them is this: if you use them properly and carefully, they can be immensely rewarding via double-switching, predictions, and patience.

However, generally, against an equally skilled player, Diglett and Gothita share the same problems. Generally (1) you need to sacrifice something to get either of them in safely since they are actually grade A bitchass material that gets OHKOed by a mousefart (to be fair, Gothita can take the occasional hit). (2) that the Pokemon that's coming in after they revenge kill something is generally going to be really scary and at the very least cost you momentum. Sure, you KOed their Fighting-type mon with Psychic. Guess what, now you're dealing with a +2 Pawniard gg no re unless you were immensely careful and outplayed your opponent or you're getting Pursuited (but honestly, that's a waste of time after it's killed the mon you want it to). Diglett has a similar case with Pokemon like <isn't weak to EQ and doesn't suck like any bulky Fighting-type, Archen, w.e.>. (3) They are also both prone to being revenge killed in their own right by things like Fletchling, Sucker Punch, and not-as-slow Choice Scarf users.

(4) If they don't have a SE move they will likely fail to OHKO anything and its your own damn fault if you play like shit and don't have any Pokemon that can KO them or take a hit off of 15 Atk and set up / take momentum. These Pokemon target specific threats that teams require to be removed but otherwise generally act as a suboptimal use of a slot. I would never throw them on a team without a specific win condition it can take out AND supporting the shit out of it in order to not lose the game automatically.


For some reason the above hide doesn't always open the full thing, if it doesn't work refresh and open it as the first thing you open. There should be an "expand" tag on the bottom.

Look, BP is not good. It is a gimmick all-or-nothing strategy that can pay off, but it's counters in Taunt, priority, and multi-hit moves are so common in the first place that it seems almost foolish to run it.

I made a team and won a couple ladder games with it, but the people I played were, well, "not playing smart" even high up on the ladder. Someone sent in their bulk up Croagunk and I just sent in my bug with Recover and Iron Defense, then constantly switched between Mienfoo and bug to SD, regenerator heals, and Drain Punched him to death. The worst part was that he had a Fletchling - why not just SD first turn and GG i lose?

I never understood this. You know that move, Stealth Rock? Well it really fucks this combo over.

It's even crazier when you consider that Dwebble, Tirtouga, Magnemite, etc. are all vulnerable to Knock Off + Priority which includes incredibly common mons like Croagunk, Pawniard, and Timburr while also being vulnerable to Fake Out from Mienfoo.

Those Pokemon are all predictable and easy to play around at best, get OHKOed because of Mold Breaker or SR and accomplish nothing at worst.


Also, I think Macle's Graph is dumb.

and don't even talk about lvl 10, not yet anyway. <----- Rowan edit: this.
 
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Except SturdyJuice is very well handled: SR breaks the Sturdy, Smash weakens their defenses making them easier to revenge. Even then, most Sturdy mons are Rock types who have 3 common weaknesses in Fighting, Ground, and Water. The exceptions (Bergimite / Pineco) are spinners who cant take a neutral hit well, or Magnemite who is still weak to Ground x4 and Fighting x2. If anything Fighting types are a sort of antithesis to SturdyJuicers. Also note that Knock Off will break Sturdy and also relieve them of their Berry Juice, making the KO easier to grasp. Last but not least, Mold Breaker ignores Sturdy. So there are a bunch of options to stop this set up. It used to be considered broken because we didnt have an efficacious way of handling it, but now there's so many clear options, it's hard to consider this to be anything close to being broken. At least in my opinion.
Jac, I agree with you. I have told "threatened" :D
 
Look, BP is not good. It is a gimmick all-or-nothing strategy that can pay off, but it's counters in Taunt, priority, and multi-hit moves are so common in the first place that it seems almost foolish to run it.

I made a team and won a couple ladder games with it, but the people I played were, well, "not playing smart" even high up on the ladder. Someone sent in their bulk up Croagunk and I just sent in my bug with Recover and Iron Defense, then constantly switched between Mienfoo and bug to SD, regenerator heals, and Drain Punched him to death. The worst part was that he had a Fletchling - why not just SD first turn and GG i lose?
While I agree BP is heavily matchup reliant and gimmicky, I think you dismiss it far too quickly. If your BP team loses to a Fletchling setting up on turn 1, you're not doing it right. Well built teams will not give most setup sweepers any opportunity to boost or they have ways to deal with them if they have. Between WoW Torchic, defense boosting moves all over, Taunt/Encore users, and even things like Venonat to put them to sleep, set-up sweepers have a very hard time breaking BP. Some teams will even use Unaware Woobat with Stored Power as the win condition to ensure they don't lose to sweepers.

You also say that multihit moves are a counter to Baton Pass. First of all, it's not necessary to lead Torchic. You can always set up defensive boosts and pass into Torchic. Secondly, Torchic can burn these multihit users and still be able to get sufficient boosts in Speed. For example, the most common and hardest hitting user would be Dwebble. (I know you love your Geodude, but it's not all that relevant currently haha) Assuming a consistent 3 hits, Torchic is able to get to +5 with either Berry Juice or Eviolite, which is more than plenty usually.

The other thing that you consider a counter to Baton Pass is priority moves. I honestly find this a little silly considering Baton Pass chains will be focusing primarily on boosting defensive stats and these priority moves will need to crit to deal significant damage. You might say to just lead these priority users against Torchic, but even Corphish won't OHKO the Berry Juice set with Aqua Jet. Torchic will just boost up to whatever speed is necessary while maintaining enough health to survive priority moves, or, like I said previously, the BP user will just not lead Torchic and instead boost its defensive stats first.

I'd like to clear up another misconception about Baton Pass. It absolutely does not auto-lose to Taunt or Encore users. Sure it makes the matchup harder and generally not in your favor, but it's still winnable. If you are able to pivot into a Taunt or Stored Power user when they bring their Taunt/Encore user in, you can force them out and continue to set-up or start hitting things. Baton Pass teams do not need all that many boosts. Oftentimes people go overkill with it. Stored Power reaches insane Base Power levels and oftentimes you might not even need SpA boosts and just enough defensive boosts to beat priority users. Obviously the exception to that is if they have a Dark-type, but the win conditions like Natu or Woobat usually carry coverage against them in Dazzling Gleam/Heat Wave/Hidden Power, so many SpA boosts still aren't necessary.

All in all, I'm a little conflicted on how I feel about Baton Pass. It's super match up dependent and sometimes will need to drastically outplay the opponent to win, but I hate to account for it in teambuilding in ridiculous ways and think it's an absolutely terrible experience to battle against it. This seems like the perfect thing for us to suspect to me because it is a fairly new thing and there are many people's opinions that have not been expressed that may shed new light on the subject. I've pretty much already made up my mind about other things in the meta and don't really see a suspect test changing my opinion too much.
 
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Shrug

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If I may, I'm going to take OP's points about Baton Pass (specifically at the end) and generalize them, as they reflect how I feel about this current suspect. I dont see anything as being "broken" in the sense that a specific mon or strategy is overpowered (Pawn or Sturdy + BJ) or overcentrilizing (Mienfoo). However, I do feel there are elements of the meta that might create matchup reliance to the point of being harmful.

BP is one: you either have a strong check built in to your team, in which case the game is mostly trivial (as long as you're not majorly outplayed); or you have no recourse to beat BP besides hax. This would seem to create a bad situation: you either (essentially) auto-win or auto-lose vs. BP in team preview. However, as was stated, there are ways where a BP vs. normal team battle can become quite skillful, which would be an argument against a ban. I agree this is good for a closer examination, perhaps with a suspect.

I'll jump in here to say the BP points were rather similar to what i (poorly) attempted to say about Abra.

OP said:
I hate to account for it in teambuilding in ridiculous ways and think it's an absolutely terrible experience to battle against it.
Sorta sums up my thoughts. Although you don't need truly "ridiculous" ways to account for Abra, when i'm building offense i'm usually thinking "what do i need to do to eliminate or weaken this mons checks and counters" and there's no way to account for sashbra besides "lure it out with another rampaging sweeper and sac that", which airs on the side of ridiculous to me. It obviously isn't providing an instant win in team preview like BP, but it exerts undue influence the building on p much every offensive team i make without stunky. Like i said, not overpowered or over centralizing, but something that (in my opinion) works on the meta in a bad way

^this'll never happen but i'll keep the ban abra dream alive a little longer

I'm going to stretch my bounds a little bit here and say that the "makes the meta more matchup-dependent" thing was also part of the movement to suspect Sprout? as a previous user of Sun, I can say there was specific teams that had very very little chance of ever beating Sun, while there were others i had no chance of beating as a sun user. This also created a dependency on team matchup and less of a reliance on skill to decide battles. I would be opposed to a Sun suspect (part of the way to beat sun is pressure once Vulpix is in, reducing the offensive turns allotted to Sprout; this is a very skill-reliant subgame imo) but i think it's fair to look at through this lens rather than an "is it overpowered or balanced?" scope.
 
While I agree BP is heavily matchup reliant and gimmicky, I think you dismiss it far too quickly. If your BP team loses to a Fletchling setting up on turn 1, you're not doing it right. Well built teams will not give most setup sweepers any opportunity to boost or they have ways to deal with them if they have. Between WoW Torchic, defense boosting moves all over, Taunt/Encore users, and even things like Venonat to put them to sleep, set-up sweepers have a very hard time breaking BP. Some teams will even use Unaware Woobat with Stored Power as the win condition to ensure they don't lose to sweepers.
Sure, maybe I'm not giving it too much serious thought. That's because it's not serious. That being said your answers are severely understating the importance of the speed advantage BP has. It is not something that BP "can get eventually": it's something it needs to be effective. Sure, you can set up your +2 Defense if you expect Fletchling, but frankly, not many Pokemon can take the switch in Acrobatics with both Pokemon at +6. Torchic definitely can't Speed pass switching in. Seriously though, what viable BP mon can even set up on Fletchling when both Pokemon are +6? Not much. Your use of the words "very hard" are misguided at best, but I'd say it's wrong. Taking a turn to WoW with Eviolite Torchic gives you no real advantage, you only pass +1 Speed and Fletchling, while burned, will be at +6 when you pass so good luck with that.

Generally, against BP if you let them set up and give it to their finisher then you deserve to lose regardless of if their finisher happens to be one that beats your team or not.



You also say that multihit moves are a counter to Baton Pass. First of all, it's not necessary to lead Torchic. You can always set up defensive boosts and pass into Torchic. Secondly, Torchic can burn these multihit users and still be able to get sufficient boosts in Speed. For example, the most common and hardest hitting user would be Dwebble. (I know you love your Geodude, but it's not all that relevant currently haha) Assuming a consistent 3 hits, Torchic is able to get to +5 with either Berry Juice or Eviolite, which is more than plenty usually.

The other thing that you consider a counter to Baton Pass is priority moves. I honestly find this a little silly considering Baton Pass chains will be focusing primarily on boosting defensive stats and these priority moves will need to crit to deal significant damage. You might say to just lead these priority users against Torchic, but even Corphish won't OHKO the Berry Juice set with Aqua Jet. Torchic will just boost up to whatever speed is necessary while maintaining enough health to survive priority moves, or, like I said previously, the BP user will just not lead Torchic and instead boost its defensive stats first.
You must not like bad action movies with Aaron Paul, because you are severely understating BP's need for speed. If you force your opponent to not lead Torchic, then in my experience, you haven't quite "won" the game but it's a huge advantage. Try setting up a Pokemon and passing without the Speed advantage? You don't get the fast BP to avoid attacks, and any misplay will sewer your chances.Speed is what BP chains need in order to properly set up - Speed is the difference between tanking a full damage attack and crumbling and tanking one with +2 Defenses and surviving to BP another day.

Dwebble is not exactly what I was thinking of, but it works against non WoW Torchics while getting Hazards up too. I was more thinking Onix (and Geodude is the bomb.com get over it plz). Other things like Aipom and <insert Bullet Seed users> hurt too, though maybe not Torchic.

For priority, Fletchling was my main point but Tirtouga works too as it can prevent passing of anything besides +1 Speed which isn't enough. Timburr works, specifically with bulk up as long as it doesn't try to set up against something like Shelmet - it can bulk up on Protect and hit something hard on the switch.

I'd like to clear up another misconception about Baton Pass. It absolutely does not auto-lose to Taunt or Encore users. Sure it makes the matchup harder and generally not in your favor, but it's still winnable. If you are able to pivot into a Taunt or Stored Power user when they bring their Taunt/Encore user in, you can force them out and continue to set-up or start hitting things. Baton Pass teams do not need all that many boosts. Oftentimes people go overkill with it. Stored Power reaches insane Base Power levels and oftentimes you might not even need SpA boosts and just enough defensive boosts to beat priority users. Obviously the exception to that is if they have a Dark-type, but the win conditions like Natu or Woobat usually carry coverage against them in Dazzling Gleam/Heat Wave/Hidden Power, so many SpA boosts still aren't necessary.
I don't think it's fair to base most of your arguments on not requiring Torchic to lead and then rely on arguments that need you to be faster to work, like BPing to Stored Power user and bypassing Taunt. I'm not saying you can't get Speed after, I'm saying these arguments fall through if you don't have Speed right away. Also, encoring a Stored Power user still does a lot because of its shitty Psychic-typing. Cottonee using Encore then Memento will almost always end your BP chain. I actually prefer using things like Aipom in case I don't get the early Speed boosts so that I can Taunt taunters or Encorers (not named Cottonee, which I can hit in the face).

All in all, I'm a little conflicted on how I feel about Baton Pass. It's super match up dependent and sometimes will need to drastically outplay the opponent to win, but I hate to account for it in teambuilding in ridiculous ways and think it's an absolutely terrible experience to battle against it. This seems like the perfect thing for us to suspect to me because it is a fairly new thing and there are many people's opinions that have not been expressed that may shed new light on the subject. I've pretty much already made up my mind about other things in the meta and don't really see a suspect test changing my opinion too much.
I have a few problems with this.

1) match-up dependency is one thing, but it's generally something you don't actually need to "account for" in teambuilding. I basically never do, but I can usually beat it anyway.

2) BP is probably the least new thing...ever.

I think if people want to talk about it, the first step is..........just talking about it. Not nominating it. Discuss it, form an opinion, if you genuinely think it's broken (which I'm not convinced anyone can reasonably think), then sure it can be nominated.
 
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Merritt

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My personal experience with baton pass is that it requires incredibly optimal play from both sides. I've faced it three times on the ladder and outside it, winning once and losing twice, but all three times I could have won, and it was essentially decided turn 1.

In two situations I led with a SR/EQ/SD/Rock Slide Drilbur and my opponent led with a torchic with some combination of Will-o-Wisp/Protect/Substitute/Curse/Baton Pass. My best attacking move in both situations was Earthquake.

Now, the mindgames come into play. I outspeed, and can almost certainly OHKO. Therefore, my opponent can only use will-o-wisp turn 1 if they are confident I will not attack. They cannot set up substitute unless they are confident I will not attack. Baton Pass on turn one is pointless, and only serves to give me a free turn. Curse is, again, too slow and ultimately serves little point.

So, for all intents and purposes, my opponent has three moves available- Will-o-Wisp, Protect, or Substitute. I have two options, Swords Dance and Earthquake.

Protect on turn one will allow Torchic to outspeed on turn 2. If I Earthquake on turn 1 and he protects, I lose. He will outspeed next turn and either substitute to get more speed or burn me. If I instead Swords Dance when he Protects, I win, as the burn and +2 essentially cancel out and I can still OHKO his torchic and 2HKO the rest of his team. However, this is arguably the safest option for Torchic, as it is theoretically possible to still win against Drilbur, although much harder.

Will-o-Wisp and Substitute act similarly. If I use Earthquake I outspeed and OHKO, winning the match as my opponent now cannot outspeed me later to sweep and maintain HP. If I Swords Dance, however, I lose. My opponent now gets a "free" burn on Drilbur, is capable of outspeeding and BPing out, and I cannot win without a whole lot of difficultly, and possible impossibility because of numerous free turns for my opponent to boost.

Ultimately it came down to mindgames, and who outplayed who. In the other lost battle, where I led with TauntFoo instead, they simply switched to Natu and then proceeded to destroy me completely, but if I had used Knock Off instead I would have won. Ultimately, can you win against BP? Yes, but it comes down to who can outplay who if you lack a dedicated counter.

The question of suspect is interesting, however. I would love it gone, but for purely personal reasons- I don't want to deal with it. However, this is a bad reason for a suspect. Bad. Could it be reasonably suspected? Certainly, but I don't really think it's broken, as it does require a good level of skill and even then cannot bypass its counters (to which there are a good amount). Is it effective? Yes. Is it the best strategy ever? No (that's Godcore). In a way I feel it's a bit like Gen IV OU Wobbuffet, where we lacked enough usage to make an informed decision about its level. I both want and hate more usage of BP before a decision.
 
What Pokemon did they have that doesn't care about a +6 Drilbur with no Defense boosts? How does BP (not LO Psychic) Natu with no Boosts beat Foo? Even if it does because its faster, why not U-turn out to something like Pawniard or Vahna or Gastly (assuming no boosts it KOes easily)?

I don't believe it was a 50/50. And if it was, then your team must match up especially poorly. If people who get misplayed lose 50% of the time to BP, I am totally OK with that.

Comparing this to Wobbuffet is a completely false analogy. They both don't have crazy usage (Wobb still had more) but the key point was NOT its low usage but because it was broken, which BP isn't. As most people have admitted, it's frustrating at best.
 
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How does BP (not LO Psychic) Natu with no Boosts beat Foo?
Natu doesn't get BP and Magic Bounce (idk if you know that already but I figured it's worth clearing up for the sake of discussion).
 

Merritt

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What Pokemon did they have that doesn't care about a +6 Drilbur with no Defense boosts? How does BP (not LO Psychic) Natu with no Boosts beat Foo? Even if it does because its faster, why not U-turn out to something like Pawniard or Vahna or Gastly (assuming no boosts it KOes easily)?

I don't believe it was a 50/50. And if it was, then your team must match up especially poorly. If people who get misplayed lose 50% of the time to BP, I am totally OK with that.

Comparing this to Wobbuffet is a completely false analogy. They both don't have crazy usage (Wobb still had more) but the key point was NOT its low usage but because it was broken, which BP isn't. As most people have admitted, it's frustrating at best.
So the issue was that a burned +6 Drilbur couldn't break through their barrier mon, resulting in a situation where they could get to +6 Defense while I could only get to the equivalent of +2 (x4/2). The issue with Natu is that by cold switching to it on the taunt, they got a free turn to switch to something that could set up if I took foo out, threaten to KO foo if I stayed in, or switch to something not threatened by tauntless foo to set up or KO.

To summarize the rest of the battle, I switched out, they switched out to Torchic, I switched foo back in, attempted a taunt to which natu had come back again, didn't switch this time and went for Knock Off, and was promptly KOed. Then I lost.

Really it was sort of a 50/50, and my teambuilding skills aren't that bad, Heysup, what are you saying.

My Wobb point isn't what you interpret it as. I meant a comparison to the lesser usage allowing for persuasion for banning to be largely based on paper as opposed to actual usage examples (replays, ways it was actually beaten). Many Gen IV players actually feel that it wasn't broken at all, both due to the metagame's power overcoming it and that it was possible to beat without devastating losses.

I want to clarify I don't feel BP is broken, just as Quote said, frustrating.
 
This is the first time I'm posting here so a little nervous :x. I just want to talk about Fletchling and Abra. Both of them imo should be getting a suspect. Abra for its amazing coverage being able to go at least 2 for 1 with most teams except those carrying Munchlax, and forces some really predictable plays, and really makes playing against it a series of coin flips. Case in point being that even with a Sucker Punch/Pursuit Pokemon you can't completely beat it. Especially with its substitute set which I find to be the single most dangerous special pokemon in this metagame. Magic Guard is what pushes Abra over the edge for me. Gastly possess similar characteristics but can't guarantee a 1 for exchange. Abra seems to have forced the metagame to form around it in that Pawniard is now extremely common, and noting that trend HP:Fighting Abra has become extremely common. It is not unforeseen to go 3 - 1 with Abra,letting something else on your team pick up the pieces.

Moving on to Fletchling, its not broken per se but I don't quite like how it forces every offensive team to just slap on a Chinchou(which by the way is worn down extremely quickly if berry juice and call it a day. Fletchling with very minor support can also pull back huge comeback sweeps thanks to its strong acrobatics. Again Fletchling is not really broken in that Tirtouga/Chinchou/more check it quite solidly. I just find it to be a nuisance so when the time comes I will most likely put my vote forward for an Abra ban.
 
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