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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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The only thing that Abra really encourages in the meta is not randomly setting up and expecting to 6-0 someone, as well as managing priority. Pawniard's usage is high because Pawniard itself is amazing. It can't even properly check Abra because of the threat of being KO'd by HP Fighting. Abra's Sub set honestly isn't even that great any more because of how common Scarf Mienfoo and Pawniard are.
Fletchling was already suspected and it was found that while its priority is powerful, there are simply too many checks in the metagame for it to be an overly dangerous threat. Most Rock/Steel/Electric-types can check it with ease, and anything particularly bulky handles it, too. Its metagame hasn't changed at all since the last suspect so that's even more of a reason to not suspect it.
Yo
I've always been a baton pass lover, to the point i wrote a ten pages guide on a french forum about baton passes. Thus, since it's one of the current subject, I'll paste here about most things covered in that thread about what threatens baton pass teams and how it fares in LC, so the bunch ofidiots slightly unexperienced players who even thought of nominating baton pass in the first place can understand.
Baton pass ban in other tiers may have been justified (not all tho), but it wouldn't be in LC :
Midgame
- Taunt & Encore.
Nobody gets Oblivious and Baton pass in LC. Nobody gets Magic Guard and Baton pass in LC. Well, natu does. But it's incompatible. Also, taunt isn't stopped by Mime Jr's soundproof, nor is it by Substitute.
In short : Nobody in LC is able to handle Taunt/Encore during a baton pass team's midgame. Natu can be receiver, but cannot pass. Espeon isn't in LC, to sum it up.
- Whirlwind.
If Mime Jr can handle roar, nothing can handle Whirlwind. Having whirlwind will stop any baton pass team from proceeding. In short, Smeagle isn't in LC : you cannot pass Roots. So one cannot handle phazing in LC. 99% of BP teams in BW had smeargle to pass roots at all costs, and there was a reason.
- THE GOD DAMN STURDY
YES THAT'S IN BOLD AND THAT'S IN CAPS. There is dwebble, there is magnemite, there is onix, there is focus sash abra, there is tirtouga, but there is no way to handle BP ? If you let a baton pass team that is under permanent pressure put spikes (there is only shelmet who can put spikes, and nobody can put rocks) and preventing you from defoging and spinning, that is an achievement and you fairly deserve your loss !
PS : "Dragon Tail Onix."
-Haze.
... Haze.
Early game
- Your setups. A baton pass player cannot handle setuping until he gets speed to deal with it. Any attempt to setup against a well made & well played baton pass team during midgame will most likely be unsuccessful. But explain me how is your opponent going to handle your +6 Magby with his torchic ?
- Your wallbreakers. Same thing, a baton pass is most likely unable to handle the repeated assaults of a wallbreaker before his defenses are set up.
For exemple, scarf spout frillish basically destroys 90% of pass teams.
Also, there are no rock type / electric type / steel type pokemon in lc that learns baton pass. Now can pro baton pass ban talk their way out of the following question : "How do you handle fletchling ?" ?
My point here is simple.
No matter what kind of team you are playing, you can take a baton pass check following your team's idea.
Soft stall / Balanced ? Taunt / Whirlwind.
Hard Stall ? Whirlwind (+ Status / Leech seed)
Soft offense ? Sturdy. (+ Fletchling)
Offense ? Wallbreakers. (+ Fletchling)
Heavy offense ? Hard setups + Encore. (+ Fletchling)
Sticky web ? Haze surskit + anyway the speed drops dig the BP's grave.
In short :
- Baton pass doesn't threatens the possibility of a playing a specific team style. (call Abra for extra info about highly threatening specific playstyles !)
- Baton pass isn't an "inferior" playstyle, and there is no reason it should be banned in place of having people get checks, just like ... absolutely anything else ?!?
- There are several checks. This "there are checks !" argument isn't saying that Lickitung exists when we cry on swagger. It's a serious one : you can handle it in plenty of ways.
I've always been a baton pass lover, to the point i wrote a ten pages guide on a french forum about baton passes. Thus, since it's one of the current subject, I'll paste here about most things covered in that thread about what threatens baton pass teams and how it fares in LC, so the bunch of
Baton pass ban in other tiers may have been justified (not all tho), but it wouldn't be in LC :
Midgame
- Taunt & Encore.
Nobody gets Oblivious and Baton pass in LC. Nobody gets Magic Guard and Baton pass in LC. Well, natu does. But it's incompatible. Also, taunt isn't stopped by Mime Jr's soundproof, nor is it by Substitute.
In short : Nobody in LC is able to handle Taunt/Encore during a baton pass team's midgame. Natu can be receiver, but cannot pass. Espeon isn't in LC, to sum it up.
- Whirlwind.
If Mime Jr can handle roar, nothing can handle Whirlwind. Having whirlwind will stop any baton pass team from proceeding. In short, Smeagle isn't in LC : you cannot pass Roots. So one cannot handle phazing in LC. 99% of BP teams in BW had smeargle to pass roots at all costs, and there was a reason.
- THE GOD DAMN STURDY
YES THAT'S IN BOLD AND THAT'S IN CAPS. There is dwebble, there is magnemite, there is onix, there is focus sash abra, there is tirtouga, but there is no way to handle BP ? If you let a baton pass team that is under permanent pressure put spikes (there is only shelmet who can put spikes, and nobody can put rocks) and preventing you from defoging and spinning, that is an achievement and you fairly deserve your loss !
PS : "Dragon Tail Onix."
-Haze.
... Haze.
Early game
- Your setups. A baton pass player cannot handle setuping until he gets speed to deal with it. Any attempt to setup against a well made & well played baton pass team during midgame will most likely be unsuccessful. But explain me how is your opponent going to handle your +6 Magby with his torchic ?
- Your wallbreakers. Same thing, a baton pass is most likely unable to handle the repeated assaults of a wallbreaker before his defenses are set up.
For exemple, scarf spout frillish basically destroys 90% of pass teams.
Also, there are no rock type / electric type / steel type pokemon in lc that learns baton pass. Now can pro baton pass ban talk their way out of the following question : "How do you handle fletchling ?" ?
My point here is simple.
No matter what kind of team you are playing, you can take a baton pass check following your team's idea.
Soft stall / Balanced ? Taunt / Whirlwind.
Hard Stall ? Whirlwind (+ Status / Leech seed)
Soft offense ? Sturdy. (+ Fletchling)
Offense ? Wallbreakers. (+ Fletchling)
Heavy offense ? Hard setups + Encore. (+ Fletchling)
Sticky web ? Haze surskit + anyway the speed drops dig the BP's grave.
In short :
- Baton pass doesn't threatens the possibility of a playing a specific team style. (call Abra for extra info about highly threatening specific playstyles !)
- Baton pass isn't an "inferior" playstyle, and there is no reason it should be banned in place of having people get checks, just like ... absolutely anything else ?!?
- There are several checks. This "there are checks !" argument isn't saying that Lickitung exists when we cry on swagger. It's a serious one : you can handle it in plenty of ways.
I also want to talk about how amazing Croakgunk is. I mean it has heavy competition from Timburr and Mienfoo for sure but it has its own niches which are pretty awesome. One of which is it can at least put Abra into a 50/50 with Sucker Punch(risky but it can do it) It can check most of its fellow fighting types quite well. It beats Pawniard handily, and can keep Spritzee one of the tiers premier defensive mons in check with STAB Gunk Shot. Even Carvanha is very solidly checked by this frog here.It is just an all round very nice utility Pokemon that I feel can be slotted on to most teams without too much of a headache.
Yea I tried to clear that up with the brackets: I meant BP recipient Natu as in the variant with Stored Power that isn't LO Psychic which can probably do major damage to Mienfoo. Unboosted Stored Power doesn't even 3HKO Mienfoo. I'm assuming that's the variant he meant as well.
Burned Drilbur at +6 is really hard to wall and my point still stands and I made it realizing that +6 burned is not +6. What was this BP barrier mon survived 2 attacks? Maybe Shelmet with Iron Defense and some luck but you said Barrier so I assume it wasn't that in your battle.
First and foremost, you got outplayed there because Torchic is going to either Protect or switch turn 1 versus Foo because anything else is too risky since they'll have to start predicting at that point. Knock Off turn 1 is safer.
Second, you created a false dichotomy for yourself which I guess made you think it was a 50/50 but really, all you had to do is think and press Knock Off all day. Natu at +0 Stored power usually 4HKOes (3HKO at best) Mienfoo. Even if he had Psychic, it won't KO unless its offensive LO. 0 Attack Mienfoo's Knock Off 2HKOes Natu almost 90% of the time. At the very worst, you fucking U-turn because then he can't switch Torchic into something it can set up on.
So it seems to me in the Drilbur and Mienfoo scenario you're either not telling it correctly or you made a mistake and thought you were dealing with a 50/50. And as I said, I'm OK with players who get out played or make mistakes losing 50/50 to BP.
And shit, if you get swept by a +0 Natu your team building skills are not good.
People have this tendency to say "I don't feel it's broken, it's just ____ (unhealthy/frustrating/not fun etc)" but then focus primarily on the brokenness aspect. That being said, explaining how it can conceivably work or how you got outplayed and lost does not support any of those arguments, including brokenness.
Wobb was mostly banned because in past Gens, you could get caught in an infinite cycle of Wobb vs Wobb and made parts of the game unplayable. To suggest BP is anything like that is delusional.
Since the suspect meta of Misdreavus and Fletchling, I don't think too much has really changed to the meta. Even with the ORAS changes of new abilities and viability in stuff like Snivy, Skrelp, and Pancham I don't actually think the meta is all that bad at the moment. I wish the meta would allow my MonoWater squad to put in as much work as the last suspect meta, but that's just me being selfish :p . Any well-built team is able to handle Baton Pass as what Artemis Fowl has said. Berry Juice and Eviolite are perfectly manageable also to handle because of how important Knock Off is in Gen 6 along with hazard control for the former.
There are only a few things I might even suggest as a nomination, but I really can't think of anything that needs to be banned to promote a healthier metagame than it currently is. Sure Mienfoo will probably get suspected, which is fine, but I doubt it'll get banned kind of like how Fletch was. And tbh, speed ties are probably the most agonizing things to deal with but that's natural for Little Cup.
There are only a few things I might even suggest as a nomination, but I really can't think of anything that needs to be banned to promote a healthier metagame than it currently is. Sure Mienfoo will probably get suspected, which is fine, but I doubt it'll get banned kind of like how Fletch was. And tbh, speed ties are probably the most agonizing things to deal with but that's natural for Little Cup.
Thoughts on mons being brought up:
Abra: Definitely really annoying because it can basically revenge kill any setup sweeper. However the Life Orb set cannot do this, so I will count it out. Tbh it isn't that hard to play around, as it has 4MSS, without Protect Fake Out will mess it up, without HP Fight Pawniard will beat it, etc. Not to mention how hard it is to bring in, basically the only time you can send it in is on a double switch or to revenge kill. Multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear on Shellder also beat it.
Mienfoo: This is really splashable but also kinda underwhelming late game. After Knocking Off eviolites on Fairies, it can't hurt them at all. This means it faces some competition from Croagunk and Pancham who can run Poison coverage moves. Although it is surprisingly hard to wear down, I used it and nearly all the games I had it was eventually deathfodder in the end. Really good early game, but almost useless at the end.
Fletchling: IDK why this is considered broken, it dies to a lot and is also easily checked by a bunch of mons. If you have no flying resists, you kind of deserve to lose. Even offensive teams can fit stuff like Archen to answer it. For example, it is also just setup fodder to Omanyte...
Plus it doesn't even have too many good birdspam partners that can help it overwhelm these checks, so as long as you play carefully you should be able to win.
Tbh I found LC pretty balanced, although first time playing it...
Abra: Definitely really annoying because it can basically revenge kill any setup sweeper. However the Life Orb set cannot do this, so I will count it out. Tbh it isn't that hard to play around, as it has 4MSS, without Protect Fake Out will mess it up, without HP Fight Pawniard will beat it, etc. Not to mention how hard it is to bring in, basically the only time you can send it in is on a double switch or to revenge kill. Multi-hit moves like Icicle Spear on Shellder also beat it.
Mienfoo: This is really splashable but also kinda underwhelming late game. After Knocking Off eviolites on Fairies, it can't hurt them at all. This means it faces some competition from Croagunk and Pancham who can run Poison coverage moves. Although it is surprisingly hard to wear down, I used it and nearly all the games I had it was eventually deathfodder in the end. Really good early game, but almost useless at the end.
Fletchling: IDK why this is considered broken, it dies to a lot and is also easily checked by a bunch of mons. If you have no flying resists, you kind of deserve to lose. Even offensive teams can fit stuff like Archen to answer it. For example, it is also just setup fodder to Omanyte...
Plus it doesn't even have too many good birdspam partners that can help it overwhelm these checks, so as long as you play carefully you should be able to win.
Tbh I found LC pretty balanced, although first time playing it...
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I’ve been waiting to post my thoughts on Baton Pass until after I got reqs, so here they are. While ZF’s team is pretty good, I think the team that I used is about as good as it gets:
This team has gone through many revisionsWhile it looks very similar to zf’s team, it plays very differently. This team has no designated final recipient, usually sweeping with either Togepi or Munna, which gives you more flexibility imo. But the ace in the hole for the team is definitely Gothita. Gothita happens to trap and eliminate or at the very least cripple almost every major threat to Baton Pass teams, such as Taunt Mienfoo, Fletchling, and Skrelp.
Anyway, I figure I may as well debunk a couple misconceptions about Baton Pass that seem to be somewhat prevalent.
First of all, Baton Pass chains don’t auto-lose to SD Fletchling. At least on my team, I have multiple ways of shutting it down. Leading with goth (it takes an acro) and Tricking a scarf onto it cripples it for the rest of the game. Alternatively, Torchic can Wow on turn 1 as it SDs and the pass out to Munna on the second SD, who easily tanks the next attack and Barriers:
+4 196+ Atk burned Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Munna: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+4 196+ Atk burned Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +2 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Munna: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 98% chance to 4HKO
Second, Phazing, while annoying, can be played around pretty easily. Mime jr. is immune to both Dragon tail and Roar, every user of Circle Throw has better things to be doing, and the only viable user of Whirlwind, Hippopotas, gets destroyed by Gothita.
Haze is annoying but also not an autolose, since every user of the move loses to Gothita.
Anyway, my pretty extensive use of Baton Pass has led me to the conclusion that there are only 2 Pokemon that can beat it somewhat reliably, and even then you have to play well, those 2 being Cottonee and Life Orb Gastly (and Purrloin I guess but no one uses Purrloin for a reason). Everything else can be beaten by some facet of the team, be it Gothita, Encore or Taunt, or simply making smart plays. imo Baton Pass is not only stupid to play against, but is one of the scariest playstyles to play against and should be nerfed.
If anyone disagrees with me, I’d be willing to fight you whenever I’m available to prove my points. Just let me know.
Skillmon 1 (Torchic) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 2 (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 3 (Munna) @ Eviolite
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 68 HP / 156 Def / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Barrier
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 4 (Togepi) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Super Luck
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 80 Def / 120 SpA / 80 SpD / 120 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 5 (Mime Jr.) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Soundproof
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpD / 116 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Barrier
- Calm Mind
- Encore
- Baton Pass
Luckmon (Gothita) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Trick
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 2 (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 3 (Munna) @ Eviolite
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 68 HP / 156 Def / 156 SpD / 84 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Barrier
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 4 (Togepi) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Super Luck
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 76 HP / 80 Def / 120 SpA / 80 SpD / 120 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power
- Baton Pass
Skillmon 5 (Mime Jr.) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Soundproof
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 HP / 156 Def / 36 SpD / 116 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Barrier
- Calm Mind
- Encore
- Baton Pass
Luckmon (Gothita) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Trick
This team has gone through many revisionsWhile it looks very similar to zf’s team, it plays very differently. This team has no designated final recipient, usually sweeping with either Togepi or Munna, which gives you more flexibility imo. But the ace in the hole for the team is definitely Gothita. Gothita happens to trap and eliminate or at the very least cripple almost every major threat to Baton Pass teams, such as Taunt Mienfoo, Fletchling, and Skrelp.
Anyway, I figure I may as well debunk a couple misconceptions about Baton Pass that seem to be somewhat prevalent.
First of all, Baton Pass chains don’t auto-lose to SD Fletchling. At least on my team, I have multiple ways of shutting it down. Leading with goth (it takes an acro) and Tricking a scarf onto it cripples it for the rest of the game. Alternatively, Torchic can Wow on turn 1 as it SDs and the pass out to Munna on the second SD, who easily tanks the next attack and Barriers:
+4 196+ Atk burned Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Munna: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
+4 196+ Atk burned Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +2 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Munna: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 98% chance to 4HKO
Second, Phazing, while annoying, can be played around pretty easily. Mime jr. is immune to both Dragon tail and Roar, every user of Circle Throw has better things to be doing, and the only viable user of Whirlwind, Hippopotas, gets destroyed by Gothita.
Haze is annoying but also not an autolose, since every user of the move loses to Gothita.
Anyway, my pretty extensive use of Baton Pass has led me to the conclusion that there are only 2 Pokemon that can beat it somewhat reliably, and even then you have to play well, those 2 being Cottonee and Life Orb Gastly (and Purrloin I guess but no one uses Purrloin for a reason). Everything else can be beaten by some facet of the team, be it Gothita, Encore or Taunt, or simply making smart plays. imo Baton Pass is not only stupid to play against, but is one of the scariest playstyles to play against and should be nerfed.
If anyone disagrees with me, I’d be willing to fight you whenever I’m available to prove my points. Just let me know.
OT: Burned Drilbur at +6 is really hard to meet.
Btw I'm reading your interesting thoughts around. Considering also the recent suspect ladder, I'm going to write about a S-rank Abra mention.
Btw I'm reading your interesting thoughts around. Considering also the recent suspect ladder, I'm going to write about a S-rank Abra mention.
These were my thoughts (I've expressed them in bold and Italics quoting Artemis Fowl's post) about Baton Pass and they're similar to Kopaka's one. I will vote to nerf/ban Baton Pass (initially I didn't want to do that, but I've realized that matchup can be very annoying against this kind of teams). I'm saying this also because there'll be a whole LC Official Circuit to play and I think that we should avoid every kind of luckbased teams as well as matchup-related teams. I'm sure that battles will become more interesting if this advice will be followed. I've played some battles against Baton Pass teams in this ladder and, even if I had a bad matchup, I won some battles by getting a lucky crit or a Will-O-Wisp miss. I think that Baton Pass isn't broken, but it needs to be nerfed at least in the Tournament scene to get an higher level of competiveness in this tier which is always disparaged because of speed ties and other stupid stuff.
1) Like 80% of the arguments presented rely on Gothita. I mean it seems obvious, but once you switch to Gothita, your chain is broken which usually means victory for your opponent unless they are bad. Having your chain broken means you need to start over with less health, no Defense boosts and no attack boosts.
2) You don't need to lead with Fletchling. Chinchou is a perfect example of something that can just force Torchic to BP out, Vswitch to Fletchling and KO something. Chain broken; victory for your opponent unless they are bad.
3) Tricking, banning something that's not broken (and many competent battlers would consider bad, or even a gimmick) sends a message of non-competitiveness more than keeping it in the tier. If you're worried about competitiveness, this is not the right way to help. It's a detriment.
4) More than just Hippopotas learns Whirlwind, there is Munchlax, Vullaby, and probably a few others. Dismissing an answer because it's not common (and it's actually viable) is not a valid means of negating the argument. In order to get Mienfoo into those Pokemon you'll need to predict and press Baton Pass to Mienfoo on the exact turn they send those Pokemon out.
I'm on my phone so I don't want to write too much, but I think those points illustrate a) the small and lackluster quality sample size you must have been basing your arguments off of and b) that banning BP is not the way to make LC seem competitive.
2) You don't need to lead with Fletchling. Chinchou is a perfect example of something that can just force Torchic to BP out, Vswitch to Fletchling and KO something. Chain broken; victory for your opponent unless they are bad.
3) Tricking, banning something that's not broken (and many competent battlers would consider bad, or even a gimmick) sends a message of non-competitiveness more than keeping it in the tier. If you're worried about competitiveness, this is not the right way to help. It's a detriment.
4) More than just Hippopotas learns Whirlwind, there is Munchlax, Vullaby, and probably a few others. Dismissing an answer because it's not common (and it's actually viable) is not a valid means of negating the argument. In order to get Mienfoo into those Pokemon you'll need to predict and press Baton Pass to Mienfoo on the exact turn they send those Pokemon out.
I'm on my phone so I don't want to write too much, but I think those points illustrate a) the small and lackluster quality sample size you must have been basing your arguments off of and b) that banning BP is not the way to make LC seem competitive.
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236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
From full health, Eviolite TauntFoo will virtually always win. And with regenerator it can get back health easily, coming back in on most of the chain to deal with it.
Also, Gothita has the same issue with Fletchling.
236+ SpA Gothita Thunderbolt vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
If Fletchling wants to play a game, afterwards, it can choose to start roosting off and actually gain health most of the time on a non SE Thunderbolt, or play risky and SD on the thunderbolt and then sweep.
Also, this is a reason why Gothita shouldn't be considered broken.
EDIT: Kopaka below, Gothita giving Mienfoo a scarf certainly doesn't help it, but doesn't hurt it to the degree you imply. It can still taunt (only much faster, outspeeding +1 torchic and +2 (speed tying +3) Munna and Togepi) and beats Gothita in the 1v1, leaving you with a dead Gothita and Foo still at full health.
Even still, Gothita struggles to come in on Foo, as if it's not a lead v lead situation it has to come in on Taunt or Knock Off (since this team doesn't exactly encourage any other move) or after something dies (which is bad for fullpass). If it's knocked off, it just dies there. If it's taunted, it can't trick, which leaves it again relying on the 6.3%.
Overall, it's more in favor of Mienfoo than Gothita, especially midgame.
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At least read this before 1 line posts :/
Furthermore, Tricking Pokemon with U-turn, regardless of it being a lead scenario (which I said wasn't necessary in the first place) or not loses you major momentum and potentially boosts that you needed. You basically start behind a turn and BP is the kind of team that will get wrecked as soon as it happens. Psuedo Encoring with Gothita TrickScarf and setting up BP is a novel idea (maybe not even gimmicky), I'll give you that, but most of the Pokemon it's doing that against have a way around it that has basically no risk (or 6.3% risk) due to U-turn. If you don't lead with Gothita, you end your chain with it, and Gothita is walled by a lot of things. It's also worth noting that due to having Gothita and 2 other Psychics, your chain is really weak defensively compared to other ones. Hence why Ghosts, Pawniard, Vahna etc, will all give you trouble.
Challenge me any time on PS, I have like 5 random teams that have been shown publicly so you know I'm not going out of my way countering the BP team.
Heysup, I was addressing Merritt's concern that Gothita does't actually beat the things I said it did (it may not beat them but neither Tauntfoo or Fletchling like a scarf very much).
Regarding some of the points you made:
-I think Tricking misconstrued a couple of things. I generally only use Gothita to win lead matchups that I would otherwise lose (strong Water-types, Taunt Mienfoo, SD Drilbur), since in my experience they usually end up deciding the game. If you don't lead with these threats or bring them out early (when breaking the chain by going to Gothita isn't as big of a deal), it's pften too late for them to be effective. As for setup sweepers, Encore Mime Jr. with a few Speed boosts deals with them well.
-Chinchou doesn't actually force Torchic to pass out of it (unless scarfchou but you lose then regardless). You can keep using Sub/Protect until they use Volt Switch, and then you have the upper hand.
-I'll admit that I forgot about Munchlax and Vullaby learning Whirlwind (although that changes the fact that Whirlwind is extremely uncommon on those two especially compared to Hippopotas). Either way, Whirlwind is typically pretty easy to see coming and like most of the other checks is usually revealed relatively early. It's still one of the best answers to BP though.
Regarding the Mienfoo vs. Gothita matchup that Merritt brought up:
You forgot to account for the fact that whatever Mienfoo comes in on to Taunt will almost certainly outspeed and Baton Pass the accumulated boosts to Gothita. This means that Gothita generally has the advantage especially if it comes in on a Taunt (most common scenario). If it comes in on a Knock Off, Gothita still most likely wins, since standard fastfoo needs a max roll to actually OHKO Gothita.
Regarding some of the points you made:
-I think Tricking misconstrued a couple of things. I generally only use Gothita to win lead matchups that I would otherwise lose (strong Water-types, Taunt Mienfoo, SD Drilbur), since in my experience they usually end up deciding the game. If you don't lead with these threats or bring them out early (when breaking the chain by going to Gothita isn't as big of a deal), it's pften too late for them to be effective. As for setup sweepers, Encore Mime Jr. with a few Speed boosts deals with them well.
-Chinchou doesn't actually force Torchic to pass out of it (unless scarfchou but you lose then regardless). You can keep using Sub/Protect until they use Volt Switch, and then you have the upper hand.
-I'll admit that I forgot about Munchlax and Vullaby learning Whirlwind (although that changes the fact that Whirlwind is extremely uncommon on those two especially compared to Hippopotas). Either way, Whirlwind is typically pretty easy to see coming and like most of the other checks is usually revealed relatively early. It's still one of the best answers to BP though.
Regarding the Mienfoo vs. Gothita matchup that Merritt brought up:
You forgot to account for the fact that whatever Mienfoo comes in on to Taunt will almost certainly outspeed and Baton Pass the accumulated boosts to Gothita. This means that Gothita generally has the advantage especially if it comes in on a Taunt (most common scenario). If it comes in on a Knock Off, Gothita still most likely wins, since standard fastfoo needs a max roll to actually OHKO Gothita.
Yea but my point is that it doesn't actually help you much because you get U-turned on, especially by Mienfoo who can U-turn to Fletchling and end the game almost immediately. I don't think you realize how weak your team is to Fletchling and dismiss it as a lead. You'll see in a replay I post later.
Leading with a set-up bait Pokemon doesn't help your case. Torchic lead is usually the best shot a BP team has. Gothita lead is high risk, even if the reward is sometimes winning the game any reasonably smart player will not put something out that will lose them the game on turn 1......
Sorry to say but I feel like you could only say this if you've never faced it. Think about it for a second.
Turn 1-2 Scald, Protect and Sub.
Turn 3-Volt Switch on the Sub and Fletchling 100% KOes after 2 Subs (and has over 50% shot after just 1 actually). It's GG at that point.
Your best move there is to Protect, Sub, then BP to Munna but if your opponent doesn't have something that can beat +2 Spe Munna damaged by Volt Switch, then they are bad.
It's fair to say that if people actually gave a shit about BP (which they really shouldn't), then they'd use WW on those Pokemon.
I have a few replays, and while a sample size of 2 is means nothing I'm just trying to illustrate my points. Sorry Tricking and Merritty for using our replays as examples.
Heysup vs Tricking using BP
Now here, it's pretty obvious Tricking took Kopaka's advice. I lead with Magnemite because if Torchic, read my example about Chinchou where I can just Volt Switch to Fletchling. If Gothita, well, you see what happens. Even if Trick, I'd be able to set up a Swords Dance after the Volt Switch.
Note: before you say Tricking misplayed on not using Barrier on Munna, that Acrobatics roll on Munna was 1/16.
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Munna: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
Heysup using BP vs Merritty
Now before I go on, Merritty realized that Spritzee was the wrong lead right away, so don't be too judgmental :P. Any other one of his leads and I was basically SOL with Torchic and would have to guess the BP recipient or get set up on by Drilbur etc. On Turn 3, Mienfoo could have also just Taunted me and I'd lose to Fletchling almost immediately. I would also like to note that I was predicting and playing almost perfectly which is unusual (even for a mighty person like me).
There are almost always ways of beating BP teams, even if they aren't obvious - it's basically algorithmic once you see it.
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K, I laddered and I was having a hard time coming up with things I'd like to see suspected. At the moment, I felt that the tier was pretty balanced, for the most part. I only saw two Pokemon who stood out as being close to what's considered broken or overcentralizing, and even then I was not 100% sold on either of these Pokemon.
Firstly, Mienfoo is a Pokemon that I saw on about 40 out of the 50 actual teams I played against. It's not that Mienfoo is inherently broken, it's just that it has the ability to beat nearly every single Pokemon in the tier one-on-one. Sure, loads of others can do that, but Mienfoo has an excellent movepool, ability, stat spread, and synergy with a lot of the tier. A simple set of Drain Punch / Knock Off / U-turn / [Taunt / Acrobatics / whatever] is able to remove Eviolite, keep itself healthy with Drain Punch off of a Pokemon with now lessened bulk, and keep momentum up to abuse Regenerator on top of this. Looking over at the Sample Teams thread, 5/5 of the teams carry a Mienfoo on it. It's so easy to slap on a team and do amazingly with. It's really not that Mienfoo is broken in itself, it's just a very centralizing Pokemon. Mienfoo just... feels like a suspect-worthy Pokemon; however, I'm not entirely sold on banning it completely but I would be interested in how a Suspect would be received.
Regarding blinkie's comment: I whole-heartedly agree that it is an incredibly splashable Pokemon, but I really don't agree with it being useless late game. In fact, I relied on it late game a lot of the times because it is incredibly easy to walk over weakened teams. Using Knock Off early match is an excellent way to wear down Pokemon in the end so Mienfoo can clean up via Drain Punch. Mienfoo can beat other Mienfoo one-on-one late game as well, through Knock Off -> Drain Punch, which is a bonus in itself. It receives competition from Croagunk and Pancham, but Croagunk is more useful for countering Fighting-types anyways, I don't see how it should be brought up in an argument for Pokemon "running Poison coverage." It's a lot tougher to wear down than you're giving it credit for. Between a powerful Drain Punch, and U-turn + Regenerator shenanigans, it's tough to wear down unless you let it die. Using Mienfoo as a deathfodder is a bad use of it imo. It's good throughout the entire match. Just don't think you're giving Mienfoo enough credit is all.
Now, regarding Baton Pass. I used Baton Pass for awhile and it's definitely not broken. My idea with Baton Pass is that it either autoloses or autowins, with autoloses being about 70-75% of the time. All it takes is a good player, and they will not let you set up. Any removal of any boosts is a huge hinderance as well, because it means that your chain is disrupted. Facing competent players, as Heysup stated, will almost always end up with Baton Pass being the losing side. Fletchling, Chinchou, and phasing are three very viable, and great, ways to beat Baton Pass. Sure, if your opponent lets you attain boosts and then get into Munna, you're going to autowin, but it's a lot harder in practice than it is on paper. I'm sure you've laddered a bunch using Baton Pass, I don't doubt that, but it's still incredibly matchup reliant. Baton Pass has been covered by Heysup excellently, so I'll leave it at that.
Abra is a Pokemon I'm seeing discussed as well, but I do not think it's broken. Its typing is very bad to use alongside Magic Guard, and Abra's only use for it is being immune to hazards. Focus Sash is just annoying, but without it Abra is sitting bait for anything to OHKO really. Life Orb sets are powerful, yes, but they face the issue I just mentioned. Abra's unable to hit everything it needs to with just one set. Protect / Psyshock / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting is what it needs / wants to run, and it can't. Without Protect, it's beaten by Fake Out; without Dazzling Gleam, Scraggy; without Shadow Ball, Honedge; without Hidden Power Fighting, Pawniard. But why can't it run a mixture of them? Psychic / Ghost / Fighting would be the optimal coverage, but then Abra misses out on Scraggy, Vullaby, and is weak coverage in general when Fighting is just 60 base power. Abra has plenty of viable checks like Lickitung, Hippopotas, Stunky, etc. It's also incredibly easy to revenge kill as it's beaten by nearly all priority. I think Abra is a fantastic Pokemon with exceptional qualities, but there are too many flaws with it to make me believe it is broken.
Regarding blinkie's comment: I whole-heartedly agree that it is an incredibly splashable Pokemon, but I really don't agree with it being useless late game. In fact, I relied on it late game a lot of the times because it is incredibly easy to walk over weakened teams. Using Knock Off early match is an excellent way to wear down Pokemon in the end so Mienfoo can clean up via Drain Punch. Mienfoo can beat other Mienfoo one-on-one late game as well, through Knock Off -> Drain Punch, which is a bonus in itself. It receives competition from Croagunk and Pancham, but Croagunk is more useful for countering Fighting-types anyways, I don't see how it should be brought up in an argument for Pokemon "running Poison coverage." It's a lot tougher to wear down than you're giving it credit for. Between a powerful Drain Punch, and U-turn + Regenerator shenanigans, it's tough to wear down unless you let it die. Using Mienfoo as a deathfodder is a bad use of it imo. It's good throughout the entire match. Just don't think you're giving Mienfoo enough credit is all.
Now, regarding Baton Pass. I used Baton Pass for awhile and it's definitely not broken. My idea with Baton Pass is that it either autoloses or autowins, with autoloses being about 70-75% of the time. All it takes is a good player, and they will not let you set up. Any removal of any boosts is a huge hinderance as well, because it means that your chain is disrupted. Facing competent players, as Heysup stated, will almost always end up with Baton Pass being the losing side. Fletchling, Chinchou, and phasing are three very viable, and great, ways to beat Baton Pass. Sure, if your opponent lets you attain boosts and then get into Munna, you're going to autowin, but it's a lot harder in practice than it is on paper. I'm sure you've laddered a bunch using Baton Pass, I don't doubt that, but it's still incredibly matchup reliant. Baton Pass has been covered by Heysup excellently, so I'll leave it at that.
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K, I laddered and I was having a hard time coming up with things I'd like to see suspected. At the moment, I felt that the tier was pretty balanced, for the most part. I only saw two Pokemon who stood out as being close to what's considered broken or overcentralizing, and even then I was not 100% sold on either of these Pokemon.
Firstly, Mienfoo is a Pokemon that I saw on about 40 out of the 50 actual teams I played against. It's not that Mienfoo is inherently broken, it's just that it has the ability to beat nearly every single Pokemon in the tier one-on-one. Sure, loads of others can do that, but Mienfoo has an excellent movepool, ability, stat spread, and synergy with a lot of the tier. A simple set of Drain Punch / Knock Off / U-turn / [Taunt / Acrobatics / whatever] is able to remove Eviolite, keep itself healthy with Drain Punch off of a Pokemon with now lessened bulk, and keep momentum up to abuse Regenerator on top of this. Looking over at the Sample Teams thread, 5/5 of the teams carry a Mienfoo on it. It's so easy to slap on a team and do amazingly with. It's really not that Mienfoo is broken in itself, it's just a very centralizing Pokemon. Mienfoo just... feels like a suspect-worthy Pokemon; however, I'm not entirely sold on banning it completely but I would be interested in how a Suspect would be received.
Regarding blinkie's comment: I whole-heartedly agree that it is an incredibly splashable Pokemon, but I really don't agree with it being useless late game. In fact, I relied on it late game a lot of the times because it is incredibly easy to walk over weakened teams. Using Knock Off early match is an excellent way to wear down Pokemon in the end so Mienfoo can clean up via Drain Punch. Mienfoo can beat other Mienfoo one-on-one late game as well, through Knock Off -> Drain Punch, which is a bonus in itself. It receives competition from Croagunk and Pancham, but Croagunk is more useful for countering Fighting-types anyways, I don't see how it should be brought up in an argument for Pokemon "running Poison coverage." It's a lot tougher to wear down than you're giving it credit for. Between a powerful Drain Punch, and U-turn + Regenerator shenanigans, it's tough to wear down unless you let it die. Using Mienfoo as a deathfodder is a bad use of it imo. It's good throughout the entire match. Just don't think you're giving Mienfoo enough credit is all.
Now, regarding Baton Pass. I used Baton Pass for awhile and it's definitely not broken. My idea with Baton Pass is that it either autoloses or autowins, with autoloses being about 70-75% of the time. All it takes is a good player, and they will not let you set up. Any removal of any boosts is a huge hinderance as well, because it means that your chain is disrupted. Facing competent players, as Heysup stated, will almost always end up with Baton Pass being the losing side. Fletchling, Chinchou, and phasing are three very viable, and great, ways to beat Baton Pass. Sure, if your opponent lets you attain boosts and then get into Munna, you're going to autowin, but it's a lot harder in practice than it is on paper. I'm sure you've laddered a bunch using Baton Pass, I don't doubt that, but it's still incredibly matchup reliant. Baton Pass has been covered by Heysup excellently, so I'll leave it at that.
Abra is a Pokemon I'm seeing discussed as well, but I do not think it's broken. Its typing is very bad to use alongside Magic Guard, and Abra's only use for it is being immune to hazards. Focus Sash is just annoying, but without it Abra is sitting bait for anything to OHKO really. Life Orb sets are powerful, yes, but they face the issue I just mentioned. Abra's unable to hit everything it needs to with just one set. Protect / Psyshock / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting is what it needs / wants to run, and it can't. Without Protect, it's beaten by Fake Out; without Dazzling Gleam, Scraggy; without Shadow Ball, Honedge; without Hidden Power Fighting, Pawniard. But why can't it run a mixture of them? Psychic / Ghost / Fighting would be the optimal coverage, but then Abra misses out on Scraggy, Vullaby, and is weak coverage in general when Fighting is just 60 base power. Abra has plenty of viable checks like Lickitung, Hippopotas, Stunky, etc. It's also incredibly easy to revenge kill as it's beaten by nearly all priority. I think Abra is a fantastic Pokemon with exceptional qualities, but there are too many flaws with it to make me believe it is broken.
Yeah I defs agree with the post by unfixable. Tbh Mienfoo can put in a lot of work late game against the right mons if you played well, although I might be biased cause I always lost to some guy with a Spritzee that never died >.<
Mienfoo definitely puts in more work early game than late game though, that was kind of the point I tired to get across. Although the bulky set isn't the only viable one, I've been surprised by a lot of Scarf sets and how hard they hit with Reckless HJK. Anyway I don't find Mienfoo broken, but I find it extremely over centralizing, which is grounds for a ban(at least in OU standards)
It deserves a suspect though...
I didn't really talk about BP so I guess I'll talk about it now.
I found that it was kind of matchup based, and more specifically, lead based. I fought a lot of people with BP, and most of them had a Torchic. They almost always led with it, and got killed by my Scarf Drilbur. However, sometimes when they fought me again, they led with Natu, and then doubled to a Mienfoo. So basically it really depends on the player, which is a good thing. Still, it takes many turns to set up Baton Pass chains, unlike in a less offense inclined meta such as OU. Again, I might be biased since I laddered with Snivy and Fletchinder...but other setup sweepers can do the same. For example, if you lead with a Shellder vs Torchic, Baton Pass teams will basically just autolose. In LC, mistakes by the BP user can really be punished easily, so I really don't find it good unless you fight someone that doesn't know what they're doing, ie setting up rocks against a booster. So definitely no ban for me.
Abra is also covered pretty well in the point above me, but although it can be a pain for HO to deal with, but as long as you have a decently bulky mon that can tank one hit, you should be able to win. Priority users can pick it off easily as well at its Sash. Against more bulky teams with stuff such as Pursuit Munchlax and Hippowdon, its not too hard to beat. Plus it really can't switch in on anything at all, so basically its just an emergency check against setup sweepers and a 1 for 1 trade which makes it a legitimately good mon, but not suspect worthy.
K, I laddered and I was having a hard time coming up with things I'd like to see suspected. At the moment, I felt that the tier was pretty balanced, for the most part. I only saw two Pokemon who stood out as being close to what's considered broken or overcentralizing, and even then I was not 100% sold on either of these Pokemon.
Firstly, Mienfoo is a Pokemon that I saw on about 40 out of the 50 actual teams I played against. It's not that Mienfoo is inherently broken, it's just that it has the ability to beat nearly every single Pokemon in the tier one-on-one. Sure, loads of others can do that, but Mienfoo has an excellent movepool, ability, stat spread, and synergy with a lot of the tier. A simple set of Drain Punch / Knock Off / U-turn / [Taunt / Acrobatics / whatever] is able to remove Eviolite, keep itself healthy with Drain Punch off of a Pokemon with now lessened bulk, and keep momentum up to abuse Regenerator on top of this. Looking over at the Sample Teams thread, 5/5 of the teams carry a Mienfoo on it. It's so easy to slap on a team and do amazingly with. It's really not that Mienfoo is broken in itself, it's just a very centralizing Pokemon. Mienfoo just... feels like a suspect-worthy Pokemon; however, I'm not entirely sold on banning it completely but I would be interested in how a Suspect would be received.
Regarding blinkie's comment: I whole-heartedly agree that it is an incredibly splashable Pokemon, but I really don't agree with it being useless late game. In fact, I relied on it late game a lot of the times because it is incredibly easy to walk over weakened teams. Using Knock Off early match is an excellent way to wear down Pokemon in the end so Mienfoo can clean up via Drain Punch. Mienfoo can beat other Mienfoo one-on-one late game as well, through Knock Off -> Drain Punch, which is a bonus in itself. It receives competition from Croagunk and Pancham, but Croagunk is more useful for countering Fighting-types anyways, I don't see how it should be brought up in an argument for Pokemon "running Poison coverage." It's a lot tougher to wear down than you're giving it credit for. Between a powerful Drain Punch, and U-turn + Regenerator shenanigans, it's tough to wear down unless you let it die. Using Mienfoo as a deathfodder is a bad use of it imo. It's good throughout the entire match. Just don't think you're giving Mienfoo enough credit is all.
Now, regarding Baton Pass. I used Baton Pass for awhile and it's definitely not broken. My idea with Baton Pass is that it either autoloses or autowins, with autoloses being about 70-75% of the time. All it takes is a good player, and they will not let you set up. Any removal of any boosts is a huge hinderance as well, because it means that your chain is disrupted. Facing competent players, as Heysup stated, will almost always end up with Baton Pass being the losing side. Fletchling, Chinchou, and phasing are three very viable, and great, ways to beat Baton Pass. Sure, if your opponent lets you attain boosts and then get into Munna, you're going to autowin, but it's a lot harder in practice than it is on paper. I'm sure you've laddered a bunch using Baton Pass, I don't doubt that, but it's still incredibly matchup reliant. Baton Pass has been covered by Heysup excellently, so I'll leave it at that.
Abra is a Pokemon I'm seeing discussed as well, but I do not think it's broken. Its typing is very bad to use alongside Magic Guard, and Abra's only use for it is being immune to hazards. Focus Sash is just annoying, but without it Abra is sitting bait for anything to OHKO really. Life Orb sets are powerful, yes, but they face the issue I just mentioned. Abra's unable to hit everything it needs to with just one set. Protect / Psyshock / Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting is what it needs / wants to run, and it can't. Without Protect, it's beaten by Fake Out; without Dazzling Gleam, Scraggy; without Shadow Ball, Honedge; without Hidden Power Fighting, Pawniard. But why can't it run a mixture of them? Psychic / Ghost / Fighting would be the optimal coverage, but then Abra misses out on Scraggy, Vullaby, and is weak coverage in general when Fighting is just 60 base power. Abra has plenty of viable checks like Lickitung, Hippopotas, Stunky, etc. It's also incredibly easy to revenge kill as it's beaten by nearly all priority. I think Abra is a fantastic Pokemon with exceptional qualities, but there are too many flaws with it to make me believe it is broken.
Mienfoo isn't overwhelming in any way. It just fits well with every type of teams (and it's the only Fighting-Type with U-Turn in order to gain momentum). I generally prefer Croagunk as Fighting-Type in my teams because I generally play Bulky Offense and I don't think I need U-Turn + Acrobatics in the majority of my teams. While when I play volt-turn teams I prefer using Mienfoo. Mienfoo helps to maintain the balance in the LC Metagame.
Then (Heysup won't agree lol) I wouldn't say that every good player has an answer in his team for Baton Pass chains... But I won't say more things about this topic because I feel it depends on the player's style. In addiction "if you want to ban Baton Pass from the tier, you don't understand the aim of the Suspect Test" isn't a good statement, and we all know it. Council will decide, but I think I'm nominating Baton Pass unless I change my mind before voting.
Shadow Ball Abra is the right way to waste a moveslot. After Misdreavus had got banned from the tier, there are no good reasons to run this move. Protect Abra has always been unuseful (scouting, preventing Fake Out, etc...). If the opponent puts a potential Fake Out user or a potential Pokemon with Choice Scarf against your Abra, you'll switch and I don't think that Protect helps you in this sort of mindgames. Psychic and Hidden Power Fighting are necessary. So, I'd suggest to use Knock Off (yes, I'm not drunk) and Dazzling Gleam/Energy Ball depending on which one your team needs. You can put also Magic Coat if you don't think Knock Off is useful. I've been trying it and it works very well against Porygon and other common T-Wave users, but I still prefer Knock Off.
Life Orb Abra is one of the worst sets. You can just win 50/50 against Sucker Punch, but lol...
In addition...
Torchic can burn the Shellder while Mime Jr. can just use Encore after the Shell Smash (it would be another 50/50 scenario and that's why I want to nominate them for the Suspect).
The counters you mention are almost good except for Hippopotas which gets KOed by Knock Off + Energy Ball. Munchlax is the most solid counter I've seen, but it's unuseful against Fighing-Types and Knock Off spam like every Normal-Type. So if your oppo double-switches when you are putting it, it becomes a problem. I've been using Stunky a lot and I think it's the best way to deal with Abra (and Gastly, too). The only double-switch that it suffers is Diglett, because you lose compeletely your counter for Abra if it gets trapped (even if you can deal some damage against Diglett with Sucker Punch).
Calling Mienfoo overcentralizing is a strong term, and doesn't fit this situation. The last (and I believe only, correct me if I'm wrong) ban for overcentralization this generation was Gligar, who was certainly used very, very much, but the big difference is that Gligar fit the definition of overcentralizing better.
Overcentralizing, to me at least, is more than just being used often. There's a component of shaping the metagame, of forcing things to be run that would otherwise not be used nearly as much. One of the faster ways to see this is usually the Hidden Power of choice. Currently, it's HP Fighting in order to deal with Pawniard, but back in Gligar's era it was all HP Ice. Snover also had a much larger amount of usage, you could barely make a serious team without something to beat Gligar, and Meditite ran Ice Punch virtually all the time. Gligar shaped the meta around it, and the only reason it didn't dominate the entirety of teambuilding was that we still had multiple broken threats in the meta to either beat it or required attention.
Mienfoo is omnipresent in higher level play, but it doesn't shape the meta around it. There are few Pokemon now who would experience an extremely sharp decline in usage if Mienfoo was banned, and few who are here only with the express purpose of beating Mienfoo.
Is Mienfoo a great Pokemon? Absolutely, and there isn't much of a downside to choosing it over other fighting types. Ultimately its just not enough for me to call it broken, under support or offensive, and it doesn't define the meta so much that it can be rightfully called overcentralizing, despite its high usage.
In addition, although I know we don't look at the impacts of bans, I would be shocked if Pawniard didn't suddenly shoot up in viability if Mienfoo left. Mienfoo is one of the few counters that can repeatedly come in, due to higher speed and regenerator, while things like Timburr are very prone to being worn down.
Also Psyshock is a poor move on abra since literally the only thing it hits harder is Munchlax, and other than that it's actually a bad choice, since so many things run higher defense than special defense, and Abra is all about killing. Shadow ball is also less than optimal, hitting very little, and without STAB its not very powerful. Energy Ball is a better choice, since that at least kills Chinchou and Drilbur, while hitting Slowpoke harder than Shadow Ball.
Overcentralizing, to me at least, is more than just being used often. There's a component of shaping the metagame, of forcing things to be run that would otherwise not be used nearly as much. One of the faster ways to see this is usually the Hidden Power of choice. Currently, it's HP Fighting in order to deal with Pawniard, but back in Gligar's era it was all HP Ice. Snover also had a much larger amount of usage, you could barely make a serious team without something to beat Gligar, and Meditite ran Ice Punch virtually all the time. Gligar shaped the meta around it, and the only reason it didn't dominate the entirety of teambuilding was that we still had multiple broken threats in the meta to either beat it or required attention.
Mienfoo is omnipresent in higher level play, but it doesn't shape the meta around it. There are few Pokemon now who would experience an extremely sharp decline in usage if Mienfoo was banned, and few who are here only with the express purpose of beating Mienfoo.
Is Mienfoo a great Pokemon? Absolutely, and there isn't much of a downside to choosing it over other fighting types. Ultimately its just not enough for me to call it broken, under support or offensive, and it doesn't define the meta so much that it can be rightfully called overcentralizing, despite its high usage.
In addition, although I know we don't look at the impacts of bans, I would be shocked if Pawniard didn't suddenly shoot up in viability if Mienfoo left. Mienfoo is one of the few counters that can repeatedly come in, due to higher speed and regenerator, while things like Timburr are very prone to being worn down.
Also Psyshock is a poor move on abra since literally the only thing it hits harder is Munchlax, and other than that it's actually a bad choice, since so many things run higher defense than special defense, and Abra is all about killing. Shadow ball is also less than optimal, hitting very little, and without STAB its not very powerful. Energy Ball is a better choice, since that at least kills Chinchou and Drilbur, while hitting Slowpoke harder than Shadow Ball.
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I can see the appeal of Knock Off on Abra, but if you're running Knock Off, then you're missing out on some kind of coverage move since Knock Off is doing no damage to Ghosts and Psychics even after the damage buff. Focus Sash Abra's job is to revenge kill and stop set-up sweepers that are out of control. Knock Off does not help at all towards this goal. Protect, on the other hand, does, by keeping your Sash intact. Half of Abra's usefulness goes away when its Sash is broken, since it can no longer stop boosted sweepers. Protect has saved me many times, scouting out potential surprise sets such as Scarf Mienfoo or Sucker Punch Gastly, stalling out Sun turns, playing Sucker Punch mindgames, stopping random Fake Outs, etc. Yeah, Knock Off hits wall switch-ins where it counts, but that's not why you put Sash Abra on your team. It's there to stop sweeps and threaten frail things that are slower than it, and it needs to keep its Sash intact to keep its fear factor. Leave Eviolite removal to Mienfoo or something.
I agree with bits and pieces of your post, but these two things stuck out:
I don't think I ever said that, but could you elaborate? The justification "we all know it" only works on TV; it shouldn't fly here. While that statement is a bit extreme, it's has some almost undeniable truth to it because we've addressed every angle of BP. So, in order to nominate it, you don't necessarily not understand the aim of the suspect test (because frankly, it's unclear), but you would be ignoring logic and reason.
a) Brokeness? That's been debunked repeatedly by myself and others. Unless you monstrously outplay another player, you are likely going to lose. And if you're the BP player, there's almost nothing you can do about it because to beat BP is almost algorithmic. If your team auto-loses to BP, then your team is not built well.
b) Competitiveness? Banning a playstyle that functions almost exactly the same in all other metagames where it isn't banned (or even discussed) does not make us more competitive. There is nothing special in LC like in metagames where it's banned for other reasons. It turns the tier into a joke.
It's incredibly frustrating that no one understands that I and other long-time LC members have been working for upwards of 7 years trying to stop LC from becoming a joke. Please don't make this a harder fight than it already is by nominating Baton Pass.
Torchic is a 50/50, but Mime Jr. is 2HKOed by Icicle Spear so there's no 50/50 there if you lead with it. Furthermore, I demonstrated already that you don't need to lead with a set up Pokemon, you can just Volt Switch to one or switch into it on a Pokemon without the right boosts to counter yours.
I don't think I ever said that, but could you elaborate? The justification "we all know it" only works on TV; it shouldn't fly here. While that statement is a bit extreme, it's has some almost undeniable truth to it because we've addressed every angle of BP. So, in order to nominate it, you don't necessarily not understand the aim of the suspect test (because frankly, it's unclear), but you would be ignoring logic and reason.
a) Brokeness? That's been debunked repeatedly by myself and others. Unless you monstrously outplay another player, you are likely going to lose. And if you're the BP player, there's almost nothing you can do about it because to beat BP is almost algorithmic. If your team auto-loses to BP, then your team is not built well.
b) Competitiveness? Banning a playstyle that functions almost exactly the same in all other metagames where it isn't banned (or even discussed) does not make us more competitive. There is nothing special in LC like in metagames where it's banned for other reasons. It turns the tier into a joke.
It's incredibly frustrating that no one understands that I and other long-time LC members have been working for upwards of 7 years trying to stop LC from becoming a joke. Please don't make this a harder fight than it already is by nominating Baton Pass.
Torchic is a 50/50, but Mime Jr. is 2HKOed by Icicle Spear so there's no 50/50 there if you lead with it. Furthermore, I demonstrated already that you don't need to lead with a set up Pokemon, you can just Volt Switch to one or switch into it on a Pokemon without the right boosts to counter yours.
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That argument doesn't hold, because you dont keep broken pokemon in the meta just to check other potentially broken pokemon, otherwise neither murkrow/gligar/misdreavus/tite/swirlix/yanma should have been banned since all of them had direct advantage over mienfoo, and then mienfoo was very solid but not the most powerful pokemon in the tier as he is now.
I think that the fact that mienfoo can repeatedly switch in most pokemons in the meta such as pawniard as you said, and reliably force them out or 2hko them (even 1hko) at almost 0 cost reveals how broken it can be at times, very simillar to how gligar also could switch into everywhere and set up/u-turn or get away with it almost everytime. The only way to force mienfoo out is using literally fairy and poison types almost for that single roll, like snubbull, spritzee, koffing, etc, so yeah, i dont think you can say Mienfoo doesn't centralize, because these fairy and poison types are almost dedicated to just counter him and timburr.
The fact that Mienfoo can be unpredictable and run different sets that require different answers, is another factor that mixes in his centralization that literally forces you to run hard counters for him, that's if you don't want to be right away swept by him, and until you can tell for sure that the mienfoo isn't some scarf/life orb Reckless HJK, you'll probably have a pokemon faint and your revenge killer faint until you realize it, since all mienfoo reliable counters are slower than him and it's almost impossible to wear him down. Even so, mienfoo can still simply avoid these counters and u-turn out regenerating 30% and actually gaining momentum over the opponent or even set up the turn it forces something out and baton pass to something that checks it's checks. Teambuilding with mienfoo is as simple as it gets: run mienfoo, run something to counter fairies, run something to counter poison run something to pursuit trap abra/gastly, then just go mienfoo all the time wearing them down with knock off, and then 2hko or u-turn any pokemon in the tier in the next switch in, force them out, revenge kill with mienfoo, u-turn out, repeat. It's as dumb as it gets, mienfoo wears down almost everything, switches out, mienfoo revenge kills almost everything (that's not called spritzee).
What makes it over the top in my opinion is also the coverage. Sure mienfoo has some 4mss, but when you are building a team, you have to have in consideration all mienfoo possibilities and run checks for each and every coverage of him. Vullaby used to be a reliable check, but mienfoo can simply run stone edge and wreck it, abra is certainly a good check for mienfoo, unless mienfoo has feint/fake out, other fighting types like timburr and croagunk can simply be worned out by knock off and acro, and to be honest the few reliable counters in the meta are the ones i've mentioned above and few more, which all share the same particularity of either lacking recovery or momentum to take on him the whole match. At most you can make spritzee switch 2-3 times on mienfoo, because if he u-turns out you'll simply lack momentum to have the possibility to wish/protect and she ends up worn out easily either by stealth rocks or just mienfoo.
So in summary, i believe mienfoo qualities complement themselves to make him too good in the actual meta, not that anything is individually broken in him, well maybe regenerator in the end, but the ways he has to simply avoid counters, u-turn out regenerating, and the big flexibility of viable sets that require different answers make him over the top. It can be the lead, taunter, revenge killer, bulky attacker, baton passer, swords dance/bulk up setter, as it can simply be your handiman. Aside from the relativity under used aipom, mienfoo is the central lead that every lead of every team must take into account, specially just for him. Let's say, surskit has to run sash because of stone edge, has to run protect because of fake out, has to run 17 speed to even afford a possible speed tie with him. In a way, it's almost just mienfoo that forces it to run these not so good characteristics just to be able to set up a sticky web. Also, i'm pretty sure that if mienfoo had 4x weakness like pawniard and gligar, that people would consistently use Hidden Power of those types just to check him. So the argument that people dont run HP for him holds no ground since he doesn't have x4 weaknesses to exploit, it doesn't really compensate using 2x SE HP psychic or something over a stab move with more than 80 BP.
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You're right about the argument of broken things not checking broken things being something that we shouldn't consider, however that argument is inapplicable altogether since neither Mienfoo or Pawniard are broken. Even the people who want to suspect Mienfoo admit it's just "unhealthy", not necessarily broken.
Also check the usage stats, but centralizing does not look like having 1-2 dedicated and OTHERWISE VIABLE counters in the top used Pokemon while also having a few Pokemon that lose to it (ie. Pawniard) also in the mix. If you want centralizing, check one of the metagames with Gligar where anything with an Ice Shard was absurdly high.
1) I feel like I'm kicking a dead horse here, but Mienfoo can't do all of those things and maintain it's usefulness unlike Gligar.
2) Acrobatics Foo will lose to Timburr as long as it's not an idiot and doesn't Knock Off it's Eviolite and just uses Bulk up.
3) Spritzee probably has the best longevity out of any Pokemon in the metagame. "only switching 2-3 times on mienfoo" is a gross exaggeration and frankly, it probably made me take the rest of what you said a lot less seriously.
4) Stone Edge only does 10 damage to Defog Vullaby and Knock Off + Brave Bird KOes. Mienfoo Knock Off + Stone Edge does more, but still doesn't KO. Either way, Vullaby still checks it.
The only argument that I will concede is how easy it is to stick Mienfoo on a team. But clearly, that alone does not make something broken. There's going to be a most-used Pokemon and a best Pokemon, and Mienfoo is one of the first ones that is containable (in fact, easily so). The momentum and longevity is basically the only and main selling point it has over the other Fighting-types and I don't think it's fair to say that Mienfoo is too good simply because that makes it easier to fit on a team.
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