Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[MaroGod]

While not great, wiggly is cool because it can take like one hit from practically anything outside of like stout and either get a kill or set up rocks (which it can also do on a lot of the weaker stuff in the tier). it has nice bulk, good coverage and a cool ability, and legitimately threatens every defogger in the tier. Not sharing a rock or ground typing with most rockers outside of monferno and metang is also somewhat underrated imo. It hasn't really gotten any worse as its let down by weakness to physical wall breakers but otherwise has good bulk and cool coverage and I don't think it needs to drop.

Impressive argument but i still cant agree with it staying C-. Is it utter garbage? No but its not at all good, decent or even reliable on a team. Being weak to Steel/Poison is better then Rock/Grounds many weakness but those rock or ground types have something to pull through. From Solrocks Burns+Recovery, Probos pivot or even Armaldos Rapid Spin/Knock Off. Other rock setters are able to do what it does but better. In the same way? No these mons dont have competitive but stil

As for Competitive that can be a two-way street. Yes its good but it relies on defog which people play around on and expect from mons such as Pawniards defiant. It is very predictable and while wiggly being uncommon makes people not aware of competitive that doesnt exactly warrent it being C- due to its own low usage.

 

[kay]

Machoke from A- to A


So Machoke is one of my favorites in PU, and I felt it as the capacity for A. This thing has very little switch ins, and the things that do normally hate Knock off. Such things as Tangela, Roseila, Gourgiest, and Clefairy all fear switching into this in fear of losing their items. Machoke gets very beefy with 80/70/60 bulk that gets boosted with Eviolite and investment. Machoke can normally force out other mons on the sole fact it can take hits and ohko things in return, forcing something to either lose an item or take massive damage.

 

[Raiza]

(this sprite is so good)
Dodrio from B+ to A-
I've been digging Dodrio lately especially in PUPL and I have to say it fullfilled my expectations. With balanced teams that gained popularity over the last months and the hyping of Pokemon such as Stoutland, Dodrio gains a position of favour into the tier as an anti-meta pick. It is able to form threatening Normal-type spam cores with the aforementioned Stoutland, but also with ones such as Ursaring, because of its access to Knock Off and powerful double typing STAB, which allow it to deal with things such as ClefTang core but also balanced teams in general. That makes it a very tasty addition to already lethal compositions and builds that carry Pokemon such as Simipour and Stoutland that kind of struggle with balanced cores and specific walls. Dodrio is also not 1-dimensional and predictable at all, as it can also run sets such as a Choice Scarf one, which makes it a decent revengekiller thanks to an high Speed along with Normal- Flying-type STAB combo which allow it to hit a big portion of the metagame hard. Dodrio also has access to valuable Baton Pass, used to catch off guard safe and obvious switch-ins such as Probopass.

 

[MZ]

Persian to C+
Was against this rising in the first place but it's pretty hard to set up an NP without taking like 65% minimum or getting paralyzed and after that you're probably not sweeping thanks to decent but not amazing power and every team has something faster because speed control is pretty important right now. Really though it's more about difficulty getting to +2 in the first place.

Articuno to B+
This would easily be A rank without the need for hazard removal, but cuno is great rn. It has a nice speed tier in beating out dem max adamant base 80s and all bulky/slower mons while still being able to run modest and hitting really hard. Sub/roost is a huge pain to deal with and fucks over even things like zebra if they're the ones switching in. On the other hand, Agility is a great cleaner that hits really hard and sets up nicely, having a lot of the good qualities of regice but outspeeds scarfers and gets STAB hurrimiss. I'd nom for higher if it didn't need support for rox and/or removal was better

I like dodrio but did you mean A- instead of A Raiza?

 

[Magnemite]

Vibrava from C+ to B-
Vullaby from C+ to B-
Dodrio from B+ to A-
Kricketune from C- to D
Articuno from B to B+

Also, I combined the D ranks because separating them was pretty pointless. I'd like to see some discussion on Persian, as I wasn't sure whether or not to move it and there were some conflicting opinions.

 

[HJAD]

I guess I'll add my opinion to these rankings.

Clefairy
from A- Rank =====> A Rank

This thing recently has legit shot up in usage and its easy to understand why. Good Bulk paired with a fantastic support movepool (let's start, SR, twave, Knock Off, CM, CP, soft boiled, healing wish, Toxic, and more) and one of the best abilities available in Magic Guard (meaning it doesn't care at all for status, which is rare for a meta wall like this). This Mon is one of those things capable of checking an entire team at once, providing excellent backup support for any sweepers that wanna tear through a core, excellent coverage options if support isn't your thing. It's sheer range of sets is what I think takes it from A- to A though. The fact you can run a set like, SR + Calm Mind, on the same set, speaks volumes to how ridiculously unpredictable it is, as well as how many capabilities it contains.
Overall, yes, it does have weakness'. Poisons / Steels are an absolute ass to it, and relies on a lot of its bulk coming from Eviolite. With Knock Off so prevalent, this is a key feature to why I'm not going for a higher rank.

Next nom:

Arbok
B+ Rank =====> A- Rank
(venom)

This thing is a huge, huge, sleeper Mon at the minute. Noone really actively prepares for this which is extremely scary, since Arbok has the capacity to essentially takes out its so called counters for other pokes in the team, or to get its own sweep going. Supposed counters such as Piloswine shudder at the thought of having to take a +1 Aqua Tail from a Life Orb Arbok. It just doesn't want to do that. Not to mention its ability to settup on BOTH S rank mons (shed skin spdef for wrath, any set tbh for rose). Arbok is quite similar to Clefairy in that you don't really know what it's going to do. Is it spdef coil, is it offensive coil, what coverage moves does it have, how much is this Sucker Punch doing, does he have this, what if it has that, you get the Point. Also, another sleeping point on it is its above average speed tier. It allows it to outspeed every relevant wall with little to no investment and even take out a few slower, more powerful threats as well.
Overall, yeah, bulky grounds do check it, it has a really bad 4MSS and its sometimes difficult to get good settup opportunities, but I feel like Arbok, with a powerful Sucker Punch, Incredible Stab option and several coverage moves at its disposal has the tools neccesary to make a jump into the A- Rank.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

I guess I'll add my opinion to these rankings.

Clefairy
from A- Rank =====> A Rank

This thing recently has legit shot up in usage and its easy to understand why. Good Bulk paired with a fantastic support movepool (let's start, SR, twave, Knock Off, CM, CP, soft boiled, healing wish, Toxic, and more) and one of the best abilities available in Magic Guard (meaning it doesn't care at all for status, which is rare for a meta wall like this). This Mon is one of those things capable of checking an entire team at once, providing excellent backup support for any sweepers that wanna tear through a core, excellent coverage options if support isn't your thing. It's sheer range of sets is what I think takes it from A- to A though. The fact you can run a set like, SR + Calm Mind, on the same set, speaks volumes to how ridiculously unpredictable it is, as well as how many capabilities it contains.
Overall, yes, it does have weakness'. Poisons / Steels are an absolute ass to it, and relies on a lot of its bulk coming from Eviolite. With Knock Off so prevalent, this is a key feature to why I'm not going for a higher rank.

Next nom:

Arbok
B+ Rank =====> A- Rank
(venom)

This thing is a huge, huge, sleeper Mon at the minute. Noone really actively prepares for this which is extremely scary, since Arbok has the capacity to essentially takes out its so called counters for other pokes in the team, or to get its own sweep going. Supposed counters such as Piloswine shudder at the thought of having to take a +1 Aqua Tail from a Life Orb Arbok. It just doesn't want to do that. Not to mention its ability to settup on BOTH S rank mons (shed skin spdef for wrath, any set tbh for rose). Arbok is quite similar to Clefairy in that you don't really know what it's going to do. Is it spdef coil, is it offensive coil, what coverage moves does it have, how much is this Sucker Punch doing, does he have this, what if it has that, you get the Point. Also, another sleeping point on it is its above average speed tier. It allows it to outspeed every relevant wall with little to no investment and even take out a few slower, more powerful threats as well.
Overall, yeah, bulky grounds do check it, it has a really bad 4MSS and its sometimes difficult to get good settup opportunities, but I feel like Arbok, with a powerful Sucker Punch, Incredible Stab option and several coverage moves at its disposal has the tools neccesary to make a jump into the A- Rank.

Okay, so I've been on and off in the meta for a while since summer started, but one thing that has stayed consistent is that arbok is a super scary threat and late game sweeper. Although I disagree with your special defense set (Modest Poli does 33.6-40.1% with Hydro Pump and no attack invested arbok isn't that threatening), your point in free switches into Roselia are very valid. Here's where i'm torn on the move in rank (as I was for arbok being A- too). Arbok doesn't set up on many mons outside of rosie. Sure it's threatening, but unless you're setting up on Roselia, Clefairy, or Licki, you don't have many opportunities to get your boosts and sweep (i'm considering the max speed, adamant/ health + attack variants). I suppose the counter arguments are that it has great coverage and it can straight up kill things without boosts and outspeed fast/frail threats with sucker punch. I'm really quite undecided on the move up, but I figured I'd give my opinion since I've used it quite a bit in the meta. In summary, Arbok is a strong and versatile threat to many weakened mons but is also too weak to really set up on anything outside of a couple pokemon. Thank you for your time ;)

 

[Deussol]

So trc said something about this like two weeks ago, and it got no response, so I thought I'd bring it up.

Mr. Mime from B+ to A-

Mr. Mime is actually a really awesome mon. First, it has two viable items in scarf and lo, giving it some measure of unpredictability. Then, it has really good utility in healing wish (which is huge, as it can give your cb stout/qf ursa/whatever a second life to sweep with), revenges some stuff pretty well, can come in on all of poli's sets and kill with just a little bit of chip damage, and can lure stuff with technician hidden powers if that's your thing. As a gen1 pokemon, Mime's movepool is full of really, really weird shit, and can do cool things like tickle and hypnosis to support your team even further.

 

[Raiza]

So trc said something about this like two weeks ago, and it got no response, so I thought I'd bring it up.

Mr. Mime from B+ to A-

Mr. Mime is actually a really awesome mon. First, it has two viable items in scarf and lo, giving it some measure of unpredictability. Then, it has really good utility in healing wish (which is huge, as it can give your cb stout/qf ursa/whatever a second life to sweep with), revenges some stuff pretty well, can come in on all of poli's sets and kill with just a little bit of chip damage, and can lure stuff with technician hidden powers if that's your thing. As a gen1 pokemon, Mime's movepool is full of really, really weird shit, and can do cool things like tickle and hypnosis to support your team even further.

Remember that Mr. Mime also carries a really dangerous STAB combination in Psychic / Psyshock and Dazzling Gleam, which other than making it an ok revengekiller which we already know Mr. Mime is, it also makes it a threatening cleaner after the opposing team has been worn down enough, as we have seen in PUPL in multiple occasions where Mr. Mime revealed itself to be a Pokemon to look out into the lategame, also because of Healing Wish, but don't really want to touch on that point since you already talked about it and we already know pretty well it is great to recover teammates etc., if it wasn't clear I strongly support this nom.

 

[Deussol]

Ok, so seeing as my last post went over pretty well, I'd like to make another nom.

From unlisted to D or C-

Hazard removal in this tier sucks, if we're honest with ourselves. Because of this, hazard stack is awesome, but defogging away your own hazards sucks.
Staryu's competitors in this tier are armaldo, torkoal, avalugg, and tentacool.
Break it down now, ya'll!
Armaldo: good, threatens spinblockers with decently strong knock off. Slow, no recovery, stupid looking.
Torkola: good, threatens spinblockers with +2 lava plumes. Even slower than armaldo, slow after smashing (+2 252 torkoal reaches 278 speed, being outsped by neutral 252 90s by 1 point), no recovery, also stupid looking, weak to sr.
Avalugg: meh, roars away spinblockers to get hazard damage or toxic's them, but is passive af. Barely faster than torkoal, weak to sr, but has good recovery which is a major selling point for defensive teams. Again, stupid looking.
Tentacool: pretty ok, awesome sdef, absorbs toxic spikes, knock off. On the other hand, weak to knock off, no recovery, threatens spinblockers with knock off but doesn't do anything to them after that, shit defense, and kinda slow since it can't invest. In addition, even though it has cool in its name, it's not.

So yeah, that's the competition.
Staryu: first, look at how cool this thing looks. Bro. Its a star. That shoots scalding hot water. That regenerates itself. This thing is so cool, it needs to join a frat.
Now that you understand how cool it is, we can look at Staryu's other selling points. Take a look at what I believe is Staryu's best set:

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Thunder Wave / Toxic / Ice Beam

This Staryu variant outspeeds neutral 252 base 60s (think tangela and the like) whist retaining maximum bulk for taking physical attacks. While it doesn't do a shitton to popular spinblockers like missy and gourgeist-*, it overcomes that weak point by having super reliable recovery and having the utility of natural cure to remove status from itself. Basically, staryu is a faster, more physically bulky version of tentacool with reliable recovery and no knock off or toxic spikes.

Fun calc: it lives cb stout to cripple with twave, which is sick AF
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Eviolite Staryu: 210-248 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whereas max/max tentacool (not the recommended set but just for comparison) dies sometimes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tentacool: 246-290 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

TL;DR: Staryu: pretty ok, good defense, good recovery, not statusable, loses to spinblockers but toxic's them, sorta fast-ish, not weak to sr, and is a bro.

 

[Cheryl.]

Nominating Stunfisk to go down to B+ ~~For Raping~~
Stunfisk is a cool mon, with a Ground/Electric typing and a neat ability in Static, detering physical attackers. He even has Stealth Rock, being a decent setter of it. But it's typing is a mixed blessing. It could hurt Poliwrath with electric type moves, but it gets killed by Hydro Pump. It could hurt other water types too, but it's scared of Water type moves due to it's Ground typing. It also doesn't have reliable recovery, so it's prone to getting worn down. It's also pretty slow. And the Electric typing is a mixed blessing too. It could wall Golem or Probopass potentially, but it's scared of EQ or Earth Power. it's weak to grass type moves too, and as stuff like Simisage and Tangela keep rising, Stunfisk isn't getting any better. It also faces competition as a Ground type Stealth Rocker from Piloswine, who beats it 1v1. It also loses to the other S rank, Roselia. It also has other weaknesses, like the Ice one. All in all, Stunfisk is kinda subpar, and imo should drop.

 

[MZ]

Nominating Stunfisk to go down to B+ ~~For Raping~~
Stunfisk is a cool mon, with a Ground/Electric typing and a neat ability in Static, detering physical attackers. He even has Stealth Rock, being a decent setter of it. But it's typing is a mixed blessing. It could hurt Poliwrath with electric type moves, but it gets killed by Hydro Pump. It could hurt other water types too, but it's scared of Water type moves due to it's Ground typing. It also doesn't have reliable recovery, so it's prone to getting worn down. It's also pretty slow. And the Electric typing is a mixed blessing too. It could wall Golem or Probopass potentially, but it's scared of EQ or Earth Power. it's weak to grass type moves too, and as stuff like Simisage and Tangela keep rising, Stunfisk isn't getting any better. It also faces competition as a Ground type Stealth Rocker from Piloswine, who beats it 1v1. It also loses to the other S rank, Roselia. It also has other weaknesses, like the Ice one. All in all, Stunfisk is kinda subpar, and imo should drop.

Stunfisk lives like everything you need it to with ridiculous bulk. It's a volt switch immunity that can't get bopped by the appropriate coverage of Raichu and Zebstrika which is amazing. It lives LO Simipour hydros with ease if Spdef and is one of our only pawn counters if phys def. Even when weak to things it's still an amazing check to stupid stuff like Jumpluff. I think you're more focused on what hits it super effectively as opposed to how amazingly this actually performs

 

[Deej Dy]

---> A/A-
I feel like Zebstrika should drop at this point to the rank of A or perhaps even A-. Besides bulk resembling that of Paper Mache, it gets walled pretty effectively by very common SRers Clefairy and Piloswine. It has always been weak and fast and had great coverage which is why it was originally A+, however the shift in meta towards bulkier teams has not been friendly to the Zebra and for that reason I don't believe it belongs in the same rank as Stoutland and Simipour as of now.

"Bguuurkk"

Pelipper to A-

Double post, but I also believe the most reliable hazard remover in the tier, Pelipper, deserves a rise from B+ to A-. With a defensive set Pelipper can even defog without fear of Pawniard's defiant boost and even 2HKO it with Scald after rocks damage.

8 SpA Pelipper Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 103-123 (44.5 - 53.2%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 187-222 (57.8 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 127-150 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Along with its utility as a reliable defogger, Pelipper can also use its large Defensive Bulk and reliable recovery as an effective Defensive wall (or Special Defensive walls #@GrimoireGod) to check common threats such as:

Physical: Poliwrath, Pawniard, Machoke (No ThunderP), and Mightyena
Special Def: Ninetales, Simipour, Simisage, Simisear, and Floatzel

Pelipper also works very well in Tandem with Special walls or mons that can absorb Volt Switches such as Piloswine, Clefairy, and Roselia.
Overall a great and underrated mon in this meta.

 

[Teddeh]

I disagree with Zeb dropping. Yes it is walled by piloswine (to an extent) since it can only overheat and do around 35%? but not every team can run a piloswine and it is literally one of the only pokemon besides stunfisk that can stop Zeb doing its job. Being the fastest (fairly viable) pokemon in the tier is priceless and offers an abundance of team support absorbing sleep powders (seems like there's one on every team) and gaining momentum with volt switch making it an amazing team mate. Just by the rise of clefairy and pilo (clef which it can volt switch on) and pilo being annoying but manageable, I highly disagree to it dropping from A+ since it's a tier defining threat.

 

[Raiza]

Teddeh outpaced me on Zebstrika, but I also kinda disapprove with Pelipper rising to A-, being one of the supporters to its drop to B+. Keeping it short, as I already explained my thoughts in my nomination post. Pelipper is just so easy to pressure because of Stealth Rock weakness and kind of low offensive presence, which make it food for common balance breakers such as Simisage and Stoutland. Most Pokemon you mentioned in reality Pelipper can't check, if Water-types burn it with Scald it is pretty much over as it will be pressured even harder, also Pokemon such as Simipour and Floatzel can carry Hidden Power Electric which trashes Pelipper. Also can't check things such as Simisage and Simisear especially if running a Specially Defensive spread, Simisage carries moves such as Seed Bomb and Knock Off which deal kind of high damage / cripple it, while Simisear also carries Rock Slide, dealing more damage(I think it 2hkos).

 

[g]

I don't have anything against you BrandonBeast but you liked two consecutive posts one supporting Zebstrika staying a+ and one supporting Zebstrika going a-

Anyways I am with teddeh on this one for sure. The momentum zebstirka is able to get is what makes breakers such as simipour and simisage so effective and its revenge killing capabilities are insane even thought it can't do much Pokemon such as Clefairy (which is free momentum) and Piloswine (which is pretty much a switch in two times and can easily be handled). I know that the tier getting fatter isn't good for it but dealing with such a number of threats (floatzel, simisage, dodrio, Rapidash, kadabra etc) is just invaluable. It also counters the ever so annoying jumpluff

 

[Deej Dy]

Teddeh outpaced me on Zebstrika, but I also kinda disapprove with Pelipper rising to A-, being one of the supporters to its drop to B+. Keeping it short, as I already explained my thoughts in my nomination post. Pelipper is just so easy to pressure because of Stealth Rock weakness and kind of low offensive presence, which make it food for common balance breakers such as Simisage and Stoutland. Most Pokemon you mentioned in reality Pelipper can't check, if Water-types burn it with Scald it is pretty much over as it will be pressured even harder, also Pokemon such as Simipour and Floatzel can carry Hidden Power Electric which trashes Pelipper. Also can't check things such as Simisage and Simisear especially if running a Specially Defensive spread, Simisage carries moves such as Seed Bomb and Knock Off which deal kind of high damage / cripple it, while Simisear also carries Rock Slide, dealing more damage(I think it 2hkos).

I can see the argument for Zeb I suppose, but I disagree with your points on Pelipper.

252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 113-134 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 142-168 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pelipper Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Simisage: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Raiza]

I can see the argument for Zeb I suppose, but I disagree with your points on Pelipper.

252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 113-134 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- 67.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pelipper: 142-168 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pelipper Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Simisage: 230-272 (79 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'd like more of an explanation from you disagreeing with the other arguments too. I can kind of get that Simisage isn't an appropriate answer to Pelipper, I was just stating that Pelipper isn't a blanket counter, as losing Leftovers to Knock Off in this case is actually big, Pelipper wants to stay at high health to keep switching in, and Stealth Rock weakness already doesn't help it, so Simisage can be also annoying at times(it actually 2hkos with Stealth Rock up). Anyway it wasn't the main point.

 

[Teddeh]

I actually agree with the rise of pelipper however. Being the most reliable defogger in the tier alongside reliable recovery, water + flying coverage and a nice speed tier makes it an amazing member on any team offering extremely valuable team support. The distinct shortage of defoggers this tier has means that niche defog on pelipper making it an A rank mon by definition, whilst also checking several wall breakers also. Although there may be pokemon running electric coverage such as machoke running thunderpunch, hp electric floatzel, etc etc, they have to drop a moveslot for that to happen and pelippers main reason for A- rank would be it's many qualities as shown in deej's post and this one. Not just for mons that run things to kill pelipper.

 

[MZ]

4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 164-192 (50.7 - 59.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But yeah Pelipper is ridiculously easy to pressure in practice, has a terribly matchup versus offensive teams and in general like I don't even use pawniard/purugly to prevent defogs because it almost never has the chance to do so versus offense (being rhe best playstyle this is majorly important). It's merely mediocre versus balance and still loses to a lot of amazing breakers like Simipour, np Raichu, simisage, dodrio, and Stoutland

Edit: most reliable defogger doesn't mean much imo and brava has way better typing. Still this post was too harsh, it's just that losing to offense really sucks for a defogger, especially with hazard stack offense is very common/good

 

[Teddeh]

4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Pelipper: 164-192 (50.7 - 59.4%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But yeah Pelipper is ridiculously easy to pressure in practice, has a terribly matchup versus offensive teams and in general like I don't even use pawniard/purugly to prevent defogs because it almost never has the chance to do so versus offense (being rhe best playstyle this is majorly important). It's merely mediocre versus balance and still loses to a lot of amazing breakers like Simipour, np Raichu, simisage, Simisear, and Stoutland

Edit: most reliable defogger doesn't mean much imo and brava has way better typing. Still this post was too harsh, it's just that losing to offense really sucks for a defogger, especially with hazard stack offense is very common/good

Of course it doesn't check every wall breaker in the tier and if played well, you can pressure pelipper, but it can usually prevent stealth rocks from going up unless they're being set by a stunfisk or a clefairy (which pelipper can carry knock off to get rid of evio). But excusing the good plays argument and easy to pressure since it's weak to rocks argument, I feel it definitely deserves an A- rank from experience, where i've played well with it using it to clear hazards reliably and repeatedly. Whilst also switching a pawniard / purugly in on pelipper is very brave since its main STAB is scald, making it broken as fuck imo tbh js.

 

[Raiza]

I actually agree with the rise of pelipper however. Being the most reliable defogger in the tier alongside reliable recovery, water + flying coverage and a nice speed tier makes it an amazing member on any team offering extremely valuable team support. The distinct shortage of defoggers this tier has means that niche defog on pelipper making it an A rank mon by definition, whilst also checking several wall breakers also. Although there may be pokemon running electric coverage such as machoke running thunderpunch, hp electric floatzel, etc etc, they have to drop a moveslot for that to happen and pelippers main reason for A- rank would be it's many qualities as shown in deej's post and this one. Not just for mons that run things to kill pelipper.

They don't have to drop a moveslot necessarily, Hidden Power Electric is a staple on Choice Specs Floatzel, also because it can't run anything else really, while regarding Simipour / Machoke it just depends on team necessities, also again Knock Off still hurts a bit. I don't see the point in the ''nice speed tier'', Pelipper is not fast at all, and all relevant Taunt users / Pokemon that can stop it from Defogging all outpace it, unless you want to run an offensive set, but that is outdone by Swanna, which is really underrated. Also Pelipper is known for everything but being reliable, the main reason it dropped is because of flaws such as being easily pressurable because of Stealth Rock weakness, so I wouldn't say it is that reliable regarding removing entry hazards, especially if comparing it with Pokemon such as Vibrava.

 

[MZ]

Of course it doesn't check every wall breaker in the tier and if played well, you can pressure pelipper, but it can usually prevent stealth rocks from going up unless they're being set by a stunfisk or a clefairy (which pelipper can carry knock off to get rid of evio). But excusing the good plays argument and easy to pressure since it's weak to rocks argument, I feel it definitely deserves an A- rank from experience, where i've played well with it using it to clear hazards reliably and repeatedly. Whilst also switching a pawniard / purugly in on pelipper is very brave since its main STAB is scald, making it broken as fuck imo tbh js.

It really doesn't prevent rocks from going up too well though. Every rock setter has a reliable method of crippling / beating it or is Clefairy and just walls it, and once their up it's not too easy to remove them. Pelipper can do well but it's versus bulkier teams that are like rose/Pilo/bulky thing/something Pelipper walls/two things that beat it. The. I can put in work. Otherwise it fares terribly versus offense and the only argument I see there is "in my experience it works".

Anyway I was just gonna quietly disagree I only posted to point out the more relevant simisage calc

 

[g]

Pidgeot added to D rank

 

[Cheryl.]

Regarding the Zebstrika nom, I believe it should not drop and stay A+. While it is walled by a few things, it still has a lot of power, can provide momentum with Volt Switch, and has the highest speed of a viable pokemon in tyhe metagame, and can also absorb grass moves for your team. Overall, Zebstrika is a meta-defining threat and should stay A+.