Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Fírnen]

Hello Monotype,

I'm not going to talk about classic issues because like Scp said, everyone knows most opinions, so, let's talk about Greninja-Ash.

I've played some games with Greninja-Spec and it's terrifying.

First look, we see its huge stats:

145 Atk/153Sp.Atk/132Speed. (We won't consider its defenses because it's useless as it most of type 0HKO before being hit).

153Sp.Atk, one of the best Sp.Atk in all the metagame with a wonderful speed, 132 allow Greninja-Ash to outspeed all the Metagame (Including 71Speed Scarf).

As you know, we need to kill one Pokemon to make "ashevolve" (I don't care how is it called) Greninja to have Greninja-Ash, this is easy as Greninja is already really fast and decent offensively.
Other particularity, Greninja-Ash gets Water Shuriken "boosted": Hit 3 times with 20BP → Priority special Stabbed move 60BP.
It looks like Scizor-Band with BP, no I'm joking, Water Shuriken Specs is clearly better.

Some calculs who show how some Pokemon who outspeed Greninja-Ash with a boost in speed (to deal with Greninja) are mostly killed by that:

Hide

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 474-564 (131.3 - 156.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 342-402 (97.7 - 114.8%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 402-486 (126 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 366-438 (113.3 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raichu-Alola: 192-228 (73.5 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 192-228 (64.6 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 228-270 (88 - 104.2%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO

So, now, people will say: "Hey boy, ground has Gastrodon, Rock has Cradily, Fire has Volcanion,..."
Sure, you're right, but:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 241-285 (79.8 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(2HKO the AV set→ Not a check)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 228-270 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Nothing to say here).
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Dark Pulse has 20% to flinch, you only need one to get it).


I think Greninja-Ash (like Kartana) give to Dark (And steel with Kartana) who is neutral against some types, give a "matchup" (not the right term but I don't know how say it in English but I think you understood me).
Especially for Greninja-Ash used in Dark type against Ground, Rock, Fire.

In addition of that it breaks easily most types who isn't prepared for Greninja-Ash.




Little Bonus:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO → Greninja Ash Specs.
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO → Greninja Protean Specs.

... You can see here Greninja-Ash is less powerful than Greninja Protean concerning no-stabbed move but still do a lot of damage.
But that's the only special move who isn't stabbed used here.


Some replays (Sorry, not a lot but I didn't have think to save replays):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-494818239 (Vs Arifeen's steel I guess)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495370603 (Vs Terror's fairy)


Sorry for my English btw, be indulgent.

 

[Dece1t]

Dece1t, before I start, I would appreciate it if you didn't imply that the council theorymons without playtesting. If you didn't notice, scp voted wait on 50% because he didn't have personal experience with it. And while I don't want to speak for the rest of the council, I know that I'm not going to vote ban on anything I haven't personally seen in action.

I don't think Zygarde-10% is even comparable to Mega Gallade. I assume you mean that we aren't giving the meta enough time to adapt to it; how exactly do you think teams like Fire and Electric are going to adapt to Thousand Arrows 6-0ing them? Rotom-C on Electric? Hidden Power Ice Choice Scarf Rotom-H on Fire? Zygarde-10% clicks Thousand Arrows every time it comes in and it will eventually win the game on its own.

I am completely lost as to why Flying "losing to Ground anyway" is relevant to Zygarde-10%. Flying isn't the sole matchup that Zygarde-10% is broken in, and we don't tier around any types either.

But just for the sake of showing you why you're wrong: first, Mamoswine, you've got to be joking me. Mamoswine is still completely walled by Skarmory no matter what without Gravity, and Gravity Landorus is pretty bad. You need to burn your entire turn to use Gravity, and it only lasts for 5 turns. Furthermore, Landorus is not even a threat because it's completely walled by Mantine if it runs Gravity. Nobody is running Gravity + Rock Slide, that's literally not a set. Plus, as I said, Gravity Landorus is a pretty bad set anyway. Gravity literally cannot even be compared with Thousand Arrows. Thousand Arrows doesn't waste your turn, as it is guaranteed to deal damage, and is a great move to be using on your set all the time anyway. You remember how Electric Terrain wasn't used at all in ORAS? Yeah, it's the same principle. Tapu Koko automatically sets up Electric Terrain and takes advantage of it at the same time. On offense teams, you don't have the time or momentum to be wasting turns using Gravity. And it's a pretty niche target anyway.

You don't always need a pivot move to bring a Pokemon in safely. That's like implying that because Fighting didn't have a pivot in ORAS (outside of the very occasionally used Cobalion) it couldn't utilize Mega Medicham or Keldeo. That's completely untrue. The archetype I'm using Ground with the most is offense. You can use pressure and momentum to bring Zygarde-10% in safely. That's literally how offense works. Did you notice its base 115 Speed? Zygarde is incredibly fast and has many opportunities. It's even easier with sand offense because Hippowdon can function as a a good defensive pivot. And by the way, Landorus-T is fine, not sure why it can't be used. Landorus is definitely a very good Pokemon, but I wouldn't write off Landorus-T completely.

And regarding your walls, even Mega Medicham has counters. Many of your examples can be beaten with Stealth Rock support and generally it isn't a colossal task to do very minor chip damage because that's all you need to prevent them from switching in.

Your point about Zygarde being Choice-locked is literally irrelevant. There's no risk in just clicking Thousand Arrows against some teams. This is reminiscent of Mega Sableye in ORAS. You just win by mindlessly clicking buttons until they lose. This isn't Mega Scizor, which needs at least some thought. A monkey could use Zygarde-10% and beat Fire. There's no skill in clicking one button over and over. It's ridiculous. You actually make my point: Zygarde just spams Choice Band-boosted Thousand Arrows until it wins.

I am all for letting the metagame adapt around threats. That is why I've been consistently voting wait on Mega Metagross and Kartana; I want to see how teams build around their weaknesses. Zygarde-10% is a completely different ballgame. I don't think Rotom-C on Electric teams is a healthy adaptation to Zygarde-10%, just like I didn't think Poison Fang Rivalry Nidoqueen was a healthy adaptation to Mega Sableye. You can't viably build around a free win.

e: just to add for the "monosteel" stuff and i cbf to make this look good: yea that's literally not even a thing. elec, ground, flying are all really good rn and they can handle steel. steel might be really good but it ain't even close to being so good that it needs to be nerfed via the last point of the tiering philosophy. gl proving the type itself is broken bc it ain't miles ahead of the others.

I want to clarify something with you since I apparently offended you. I did not say it wasnt properly tested, but I did mention very little replays were posted on the matter, and in the forum discussion it was mostly theorymonning due to that. I don't have a ton of time to fully reply to your essay, but I did at least want to let you know that because I think you took what I said the wrong way. However, I do think it was undertested and overrated, and that's why I even bothered going ahead to write the post that I did. It was nothing against the council, but opposition on the Zydog ban. Before I end this though there's a couple of your points I want to address briefly.

I am fully aware Flying was not the sole match up its quote on quote broken in, but that was a major argument made about it--the fact that it can almost freely hit TArrows with little penalties. I'm also 100% aware that Landorus does not run both Gravity and Rock Slide, I'm not an idiot. Gravity however is a very viable set that allows itself, Excadrill, and Mega Garchomp (the 2 of which can break Mantine, and Garchomp can additionally threaten the Skarmory switch in) to be able to spam Ground attacks on mons usually immune to it (this is where you'll probably argue that Thousand Arrows already does that, but I want to point out to you that both Excadrill and Garchomp are much stronger wall breakers and no can threaten a larger pool of Pokemon, especially under gravity).

As for your Electric argument, I think your going overboard mentioning Roton-C. Raichu with HP Ice is able to check it, while also threatening the rest of a Ground team since it can also out speed scarf Excadrill. That same point of checking reaches to a wide range of common scarfers on Electric.

Again, I'm on a time restraint rn, but I thought I'd at least reply to you to get this cleared up. It doesn't change the fact that I think banning it was a poor decision, and there should of been more forum discussion about it/at the very least council members mentioning g their reasons for their vote, and how they came to the conclusion.

 

[scpinion]

A couple people asked if we'd share our rationale behind the votes. edit: To clarify, these are my thoughts, not everyone on the council's.

Zygarde
Eien explained my thoughts on Zydog earlier in the thread. Essentially, TA on Zygarde isn't competitive in Monotype. The only reason I didn't vote to ban Zysanke is b/c I haven't tested it, but I expect it to be equally mindless to use.

Tapu Lele
Tapu Lele was completely busted. Specs 2hko'd most of the meta, scarf was really good too. Psychic terrain was an incredible buff to any offensive Psychic type. I want to reduce the power creep we allowed last gen and this thing is way above the threshold I have in mind. It also enabled many other Pokemon to go above that threshold (e.g. Mega Zam).

Tapu Koko
We voted on Tapu Koko, but I don't see Electric or Electric Terrain as too good for the meta at this time. Also, I haven't seen an individually broken Tapu Koko set. (maybe Z Mirror Move will be that?)

Steel Types
For Steel teams, Tyke did a good job stating the issue. There are two 'mons that are potentially too good on Steel: Kartana and Mega Metagross. For me, Magearna doesn't even enter in the discussion at this point. I have no idea which one is the problem, though. As I said previously, I refuse to vote to ban something I'm not confident in. Instead, I want to wait and let the metagame evolve around them (there are plenty of other things that should probably be banned!). Here's some examples of things I think could change that might impact Kartana and Mega-Metagross:

– Prior to this week, I think Mega-Scizor was the best Mega-Evolution on Steel teams. Without it your team was stupidly weak to Zydog. Kartana can't always salvage the MU when you're playing against a good Ground team because they'll be prepared to wear it down and will actually have checks (e.g. duggy, tank chomp, zydog, exca in sand, RP lando).
– Ground just lost one of its best checks to Mega Meta and non-scarf Kartana. That MU will be much harder now and I viewed Ground as a major impediment to Steel's dominance.
– With Tapu Lele gone, things like Bisharp, Doublade, and Mega Scizor can actually be major offensive threats again. We actually saw Scarf Bisharp become a thing on Dark... If you ran Doublade or Mega Scizor you were likely using them for defensive utility, not offensive potential. Metagross loathes all three of them (even Scarf Bisharp x_x). Kartana isn't fond of Doublade and Mega Scizor.
– Flying teams might actually get significant usage w/ Lele gone. GL sweeping a Flying team w/ scarf Kartana or a SD set w/ Steel, Grass, and Fighting coverage. Meta would enjoy this change though.
– Fire teams can finally not click X to Zydog. Anyone remember how good Zard and Co. are against Steel? Yeah, Kartana and Meta don't change that. The Air Balloon Heatran so many people are running isn't enough to stop a well-played Fire team. Steel teams will have to adjust.

I wholly admit both are very good, and the combination (+ Steel's team support) can be overwhelming for some types, but I'm not ready to remove one of them yet.

Edit @ below: These are things that I think will change and would change my opinion on which one of Kartana/Meta should be suspected/banned, not reasons why Steel won't be really good. Read my man, read:

I have no idea which one is the problem, though. As I said previously, I refuse to vote to ban something I'm not confident in. Instead, I want to wait and let the metagame evolve around them

 

[czim]

Steel Types
For Steel teams, Tyke did a good job stating the issue. There are two 'mons that are potentially too good on Steel: Kartana and Mega Metagross. For me, Magearna doesn't even enter in the discussion at this point. I have no idea which one is the problem, though. As I said previously, I refuse to vote to ban something I'm not confident in. Instead, I want to wait and let the metagame evolve around them (there are plenty of other things that should probably be banned!). Here's some examples of things I think could change that might impact Kartana and Mega-Metagross:

– Prior to this week, I think Mega-Scizor was the best Mega-Evolution on Steel teams. Without it your team was stupidly weak to Zydog. Kartana can't always salvage the MU when you're playing against a good Ground team because they'll be prepared to wear it down and will actually have checks (e.g. duggy, tank chomp, zydog, exca in sand, RP lando).
– Ground just lost one of its best checks to Mega Meta and non-scarf Kartana. That MU will be much harder now and I viewed Ground as a major impediment to Steel's dominance.
– With Tapu Lele gone, things like Bisharp, Doublade, and Mega Scizor can actually be major offensive threats again. We actually saw Scarf Bisharp become a thing on Dark... If you ran Doublade or Mega Scizor you were likely using them for defensive utility, not offensive potential. Metagross loathes all three of them (even Scarf Bisharp x_x). Kartana isn't fond of Doublade and Mega Scizor.
– Flying teams might actually get significant usage w/ Lele gone. GL sweeping a Flying team w/ scarf Kartana or a SD set w/ Steel, Grass, and Fighting coverage. Meta would enjoy this change though.
– Fire teams can finally not click X to Zydog. Anyone remember how good Zard and Co. are against Steel? Yeah, Kartana and Meta don't change that. The Air Balloon Heatran so many people are running isn't enough to stop a well-played Fire team. Steel teams will have to adjust.

I wholly admit both are very good, and the combination (+ Steel's team support) can be overwhelming for some types, but I'm not ready to remove one of them yet.

Ok, I gotta go all Kanye on here, just because your reasoning behind this is completely busted, as much as i understand your point of view.
1) Kartana can always switch out vs Ground, with Excadrill giving Skarmory a free switch in, Chomp giving Heatran a switch in that can double into Skarmory and Dugtrio not being able to OHKO Kartana with a Choice Band (So unless dugtrio runs a meme set with Natural Gift Fire or Hp Fire it won't deal with Kartana - and i would never call that a healthy adaptation to the meta). Landorus is a pain to deal with though, but Kartana outspeeds it and can deal with it at +1
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 309-364 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

2) Metagross wont normally stay in on Bisharp, but it can definitely deal with it if it needs to (So it doesn't "Loathe" it)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 221-265 (73.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kartana can definitely deal with Doublade if it wants to, Night Slash is a solid option and Doublade can't really do all that much in return while being extremely easy to wear down, Sacred Sword only 2Hkoes, and it's not like Skarmory can't switch in. Mega Scizor is a solid check though, especially if it can U-turn out to gain momentum (but again, you still have 4 mons in your team, I'm sure you can find a way around Sciz)

3) Kartana is not sweeping flying and this definitely bothered me the most. So the fact that Kartana can't sweep a type that resist 2 of it's most common 3 moves, while having Skarmdos (that Kartana just can't deal with because they also resist Steel) is a reason for it not being busted? Don't act like Kartana has no team support! And like I stated in my other post, Magearna and Metagross can both run elec/ice coverage to basically deal with Flying on their own.

4) I'll just ignore this part because bringing Fire to the discussion of whether or not something on Steel needs to go is just plain meh. It's like bringing Fairy to see if something in Dragon is broken or not. We'd definitely have Palkia/Giratina allowed at this point if we follow that line of thinking.

Honestly though, none of those meta changes would change the fact that steel will remain dominant and the combination of these mons will remain broken

Edit: And I'm just telling you why none of those things will be able to change the impact of these mons in the metagame, because it'll stay the same!
I read my man, I read
You probably should too...

 

[1 True Lycan]

Honestly idk why people think steel is broken, it's not a good type. Even ice can beat it, as shown by this replay vs Shadestep: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495489154

Srsly tho

Ban Metagross

 

[Wanka]

Who's mans lol^

Ok, I gotta go all Kanye on here, just because your reasoning behind this is completely busted, as much as i understand your point of view.
1) Kartana can always switch out vs Ground, with Excadrill giving Skarmory a free switch in, Chomp giving Heatran a switch in that can double into Skarmory and Dugtrio not being able to OHKO Kartana with a Choice Band (So unless dugtrio runs a meme set with Natural Gift Fire or Hp Fire it won't deal with Kartana - and i would never call that a healthy adaptation to the meta). Landorus is a pain to deal with though, but Kartana outspeeds it and can deal with it at +1
+1 252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 309-364 (96.8 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

2) Metagross wont normally stay in on Bisharp, but it can definitely deal with it if it needs to (So it doesn't "Loathe" it)
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 221-265 (73.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kartana can definitely deal with Doublade if it wants to, Night Slash is a solid option and Doublade can't really do all that much in return while being extremely easy to wear down, Sacred Sword only 2Hkoes, and it's not like Skarmory can't switch in. Mega Scizor is a solid check though, especially if it can U-turn out to gain momentum (but again, you still have 4 mons in your team, I'm sure you can find a way around Sciz)

3) Kartana is not sweeping flying and this definitely bothered me the most. So the fact that Kartana can't sweep a type that resist 2 of it's most common 3 moves, while having Skarmdos (that Kartana just can't deal with because they also resist Steel) is a reason for it not being busted? Don't act like Kartana has no team support! And like I stated in my other post, Magearna and Metagross can both run elec/ice coverage to basically deal with Flying on their own.

4) I'll just ignore this part because bringing Fire to the discussion of whether or not something on Steel needs to go is just plain meh. It's like bringing Fairy to see if something in Dragon is broken or not. We'd definitely have Palkia/Giratina allowed at this point if we follow that line of thinking.

Honestly though, none of those meta changes would change the fact that steel will remain dominant and the combination of these mons will remain broken

Edit: And I'm just telling you why none of those things will be able to change the impact of these mons in the metagame, because it'll stay the same!
I read my man, I read
You probably should too...

- Dugtrio does not need a meme set to be able to easily trap and remove kartana. A sash reversal duggy set does the job too a tee and is an all around great set/mon to use on ground teams. So no kartana can't always "just switch out."

- solely saying "lol kartana can deal with Doublade if it wants to cuz night slash" doesn't cut it. Doublade is a good quick check to the mon regardless. locking yourself into night Slash in a steel mirror isn't exactly ideal as you can lose momentum pretty easily if you decide to click it.

- No you can't just ignore the fire part either. If you actually took the time to think about the type and its potential in the meta, you would realize that fire actually has the ability to be an extremely competitive type this generation rather than the below average status it had in ORAS. Scp said what he said because he feels that fire has the ability to be a driving force in the meta therefore you can use it in an argument to dumb down steel's dominance. It's not like fire is going to be some shit hole uncommon type this gen. If it were, than yeah, what you said could have more relevance, but it isn't, fire can actually be good as shit.

E: take into account that this is coming from someone that thinks kartana is broken as shit. I'm just tired of seeing post after post that intends to say a mon is broken but they end up containing some random bullshit that in turn helps the council debunk their claims and give mons like Kartana a greater chance of not actually getting banned.

 

[czim]

Who's mans lol^



- Dugtrio does not need a meme set to be able to easily trap and remove kartana. A sash reversal duggy set does the job too a tee and is an all around great set/mon to use on ground teams. So no kartana can't always "just switch out."

- solely saying "lol kartana can deal with Doublade if it wants to cuz night slash" doesn't cut it. Doublade is a good quick check to the mon regardless. locking yourself into night Slash in a steel mirror isn't exactly ideal as you can lose momentum pretty easily if you decide to click it.

- No you can't just ignore the fire part either. If you actually took the time to think about the type and its potential in the meta, you would realize that fire actually has the ability to be an extremely competitive type this generation rather than the below average status it had in ORAS. Scp said what he said because he feels that fire has the ability to be a driving force in the meta therefore you can use it in an argument to dumb down steel's dominance. It's not like fire is going to be some shit hole uncommon type this gen. If it were, than yeah, what you said could have more relevance, but it isn't, fire can actually be good as shit.

E: take into account that this is coming from someone that thinks kartana is broken as shit. I'm just tired of seeing post after post that intends to say a mon is broken but they end up containing some random bullshit that in turn helps the council debunk their claims and give mons like Kartana a greater chance of not actually getting banned.

Never said it could switch out on Duggy, i just said it could switch out on the other mentioned threats, and Sash reversal is suboptimal if you ask me. It won't work if SR is set, and is definitely not the kind of adaptation the metagame needs.
You literally just understood what you wanted to understand on Doublade, I literally said it can be worn down easily, but works as a check nonetheless. It just isn't as reliable as you're making it out to be
Weakness to fire definitely shouldn't be an argument to whether the mon will turn out to be healthy or not, especially on Kartana because the type RESISTS BOTH OF ITS STABS, while taking neutral damage from the coverage it runs, and i never said fire can't be good. But i already explained how i feel about that. It's like saying Talonflame wasn't broken in ORAS by looking at the rock matchup, it just doesnt cut it.

 

[Wanka]

Never said it could switch out on Duggy, i just said it could switch out on the other mentioned threats, and Sash reversal is suboptimal if you ask me. It won't work if SR is set, and is definitely not the kind of adaptation the metagame needs.
You literally just understood what you wanted to understand on Doublade, I literally said it can be worn down easily, but works as a check nonetheless. It just isn't as reliable as you're making it out to be
Weakness to fire definitely shouldn't be an argument to whether the mon will turn out to be healthy or not, especially on Kartana because the type RESISTS BOTH OF ITS STABS, while taking neutral damage from the coverage it runs, and i never said fire can't be good. But i already explained how i feel about that

Sash reversal is its best set dude are you ok? It does wonders for ground teams and keeps kartana it check at the same time. Several players have utilized the set and can agree with me that it is far from suboptimal and a great set to have for ground teams. You're just plain wrong on this one dude and a lot of ppl agree with me.

I don't think you even comprehended what scp and I are saying about fire so I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain why it's relevant.

 

[Bitana]

Since people are starting to look into Greninja, I suppose I'll post a replay of my experience vs it.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-496312961

As you can see, there wasn't actually all that much I could do vs it except maybe keep Nihilego at absolute max HP.

 

[Breeze Sea]

I am grateful for the council getting these bans out. of course the zydog ban was controversial and i believe it was a little overated considering any scarf mon is a threat to it with its poor defenses. The biggest reason it was banned is probably because we have a meta dominated by bulky flying types and steel mons. i would compare zydog vs fire to kartana/metagross vs ice, there are no counters but there are checks. The problem is whether or not these checks are actually viable for more than one mon. Fire has scarf manitan or scarf ape for damage on zydog and ice has scarf weavile and mamoswine for kartana and meta(of course nothing here ohkos but they are the only things on there respective types that can secure the kill after chip damage). The question is: what do we define as overpowered and bad for the meta? Something that is extremely difficult to beat with certain types? if that where the the case then excadrill (fire, rock, ice), terrakion(rock, ice, normal), some latios sets(fighting), bisharp(ghost). In my opinion things that make the case for op are either unbeatable or promotes unhealthy adaptations to the meta( sash counter weavile). I know that the council has a similar train of though but in practice it's extremly hard, especially with every user screaming what they want banned and unnbanned all of the time but i hope you guys are considering the fact that when it comes to unbans, wether or not a mon is op shouldn't determine if its allowed but it's effect on a type and the meta as a whole should be looked at. I mean come on guys i know that you arent doing this on purpose but doesn't it seem as though you are unbanning the most op mons for good types. The ban on zydog was fine but not consistent with how the council normally treats threats. Since zydog is banned it opens the door to all of the mons previously mentioned.


- lol sorry for the length this is my first forum post on smogon although i have been on showdown for a few years. I might be a little biased as an ice user so correct me if i got anything wrong.

Thx council for actually spending the time to actually debate this stuff and not just ranting about what you want unbanned

 

[Thimo]

ban thousand arrows keep both zygardes everyones happy y/y

except that 1 guy who cries in the corner bc he cant use thousand arrows smeargle anymore

 

[Arash]

^thousand arrows isn't even usable on smeargle as it is a special "locked" move (similar to dark void, etc.)

EDIT: This should be tested in-game; iirc as of gen 7 smeargle could physically sketch the move, but if it tries to use the move in battle it will fail (similar to Hyperspace Fury, Dark Void, and other "locked" moves)... I'll test this on my cartridge when i get the chance to

 

[iLlama]

^thousand arrows isn't even usable on smeargle as it is a special "locked" move (similar to dark void, etc.)

At least test it: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-497254186

 

[scpinion]

Seeing as Kartana, Metagross, and Steel are a hot topic atm, I'll share a portion of the team I built for this week's team tour game. Every set is generally viable and useful, but they're tailored to let me check every variant of Kartana + Metagross.

Before someone starts complaining, I'm not saying/implying anything about Steel and whether or not it is broken... I'm just trying to share one way to check one of the best offensive cores in the meta. You have the other 3 team slots to find a check for Magearna (Jirachi, Mew, Victini, etc.).

– Latios checks all non-speed-boosted Kartana sets
– Celebi counters Scarf Kartana and lets me switch in to Band Kartana then pivot out into Latios
– Mega-Bro takes nothing from Scarf Kartana, hard-walls Mega-Metagross, and can spam Scald to annoy Steel

Celebi @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
- Baton Pass

This is the one that might need some explaining. It is just a general utility set for Psychic teams. Among other things, it:
1) Checks Mega-Sharpedo
2) Makes a great partner for Hoopa-U when facing fat teams (NastyPass)
3) Makes for a nice wincon vs. balance (some Fairy teams really struggle to beat this, actually)
4) Helps with Band Kartana, counters Scarf Kartana

Latios @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Just a generic Z-move Latios w/ HP Fire. It is the team's Defogger and can help wall-break with the Z-move. HP Fire for Kartana and other Steels. Recover b/c I like my Defogger to have some staying power throughout a match.

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

CroBro! I've waited a while to use this and it is definitely a good set. Think CroCune, but much harder to break (no crits, more Def) and capable of contributing in the early game (b/c of Regen). This thing hard counters Metagross and lets you spam Scald every time it comes in. There are probably better EVs, but I haven't bothered with figuring them out yet.

Celebi vs Kartana Details

Max-Max rolls from Band Kartana = 93% on Celebi. In practice, this means it can switch in on SR, have a reasonable shot at taking two hits, then BP out into Latios and give you a sack for later in the game. If they get the rolls, you still get a switch into Lati, but don't have a sack later in the game.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Night Slash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 212-250 (52.8 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Night Slash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Celebi: 106-125 (26.4 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Just don't forget you have this set to help w/ Band Kartana... I did in my tour game and it cost me my mew :(

 

[ArkenCiel]

I'm probably the only one who runs Grass Knot on Metagross-Mega nowadays, so this doesn't really hold up as a legit threat.

calcs

0 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro-Mega: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 278-328 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Celebi: 168-198 (41.8 - 49.3%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What will wall it is that Mew though if it was physically defensive. Is Calm Mind over NPlot on Celebi any good? I imagine it'd make Slowbro-Mega that much more annoying after receiving extra CM boosts without setting them up by itself, but I don't know if NPlot goes miles for Celebi.

Shame Zygarde-50 is on the road to being banned. Thousand Arrows really is the problem here because without Thousand Arrows, neither Pokemon would seem broken. Unlike Zydog, Zygarde can't run a banded set as well with its 95 base speed, making the Dragon Dance set seem more feasible. It needs a turn to set up and be a legitimate threat with its 100 base attack, which it can easily get thanks to its bulk, but I'm unsure myself if that one turn of setting up is enough as an argument to keep Zgyarde-50 in. It doesn't really look like it will stay and I won't have much of a problem with it, but it'd be nice if someone could actually have at least a few replays of Zygarde-50 murdering the same things just as effectively if not better as Zydoge and comparing it to the effectiveness of Zydog's hit-and-run tactic.

 

[MZ]

I've probably been posting too much but honestly my enjoyment for mono went from 60 back to 0 since we banned all the fun but obviously broken stuff except for kartana and meta for whatever reason and I'd really like to push for a straight quickban of the problem elements. It should be clear at this point that at least a full suspect is warranted for meta/kartana but especially in meta's case I dont believe there's any need to make it take longer. Basically it seems like there's been too much focus overall on what niche choices you can use specifically to beat a mon/core rather than how these strong things are skewing matchups overall. This is basically why zydog deserved a ban (banning thousand arrows is just dumb lol), sure you could argue about how flying had certain whatever to check it but ultimately it made the matchup way too strong. Steel right now has an advantageous matchup versus ground and fighting. I'm sure at least one person disagrees but from using a good amount of both it's really not an easy matchup to handle because of the stupid things it can stack. The fact that you have some incredible defensive support options like ferro+skarm+tran (without tran for example I probably wouldnt be out here saying that steel beats fighting) and other lesser seen things like doublade and celesteela plus magearna being really good just adds to this being a problem, there are other types with really strong mons like zard-x on fire but fire doesn't have the same incredible defensive backbones and offensive partners to support it which is why zard is quite good but not meta level stupid. I mean there's just not that much to say here other than if you dont think these mons put a ridiculous amount of pressure on any build you should just go out and try it. For example, Toxapex checks kartana on paper and then facing steel makes the entire matchup look a lot harder than a couple of calcs when there's spikes support and ferro and whatever other threats. Scp's core is a good example of how u can adapt to beat the core, but it's also an example of how ur forced to adapt since without those 3 specific mons, it doesn't really hold up to just beat 1 of kartana or meta. Not to mention that GK/Pursuit meta busts right through it because meta has way too many options to pull out. As far as I can tell Steel's been very common/dominant on ladder and it's certainly been busting up the first tour with many of these win posts either being "steel wins again" or "mirror match" which inevitably means steel for a good reason. I will say that kartana feels a lot less busted and it might be worth trying to ban only meta and then seeing if the metagame can still keep up with kartana, but that'll still be a bit shaky. We've had less than a week since the last round of bans and these two mons were put off, but I really can't see any reason to not move ahead on this as soon as possible.

if u dont wanna read a big chunk of words, tldr metagross is ultra stupid and kartana is mega stupid

 

[Neski]

I've probably been posting too much but honestly my enjoyment for mono went from 60 back to 0 since we banned all the fun but obviously broken stuff except for kartana and meta for whatever reason and I'd really like to push for a straight quickban of the problem elements. It should be clear at this point that at least a full suspect is warranted for meta/kartana but especially in meta's case I dont believe there's any need to make it take longer. Basically it seems like there's been too much focus overall on what niche choices you can use specifically to beat a mon/core rather than how these strong things are skewing matchups overall. This is basically why zydog deserved a ban (banning thousand arrows is just dumb lol), sure you could argue about how flying had certain whatever to check it but ultimately it made the matchup way too strong. Steel right now has an advantageous matchup versus ground and fighting. I'm sure at least one person disagrees but from using a good amount of both it's really not an easy matchup to handle because of the stupid things it can stack. The fact that you have some incredible defensive support options like ferro+skarm+tran (without tran for example I probably wouldnt be out here saying that steel beats fighting) and other lesser seen things like doublade and celesteela plus magearna being really good just adds to this being a problem, there are other types with really strong mons like zard-x on fire but fire doesn't have the same incredible defensive backbones and offensive partners to support it which is why zard is quite good but not meta level stupid. I mean there's just not that much to say here other than if you dont think these mons put a ridiculous amount of pressure on any build you should just go out and try it. For example, Toxapex checks kartana on paper and then facing steel makes the entire matchup look a lot harder than a couple of calcs when there's spikes support and ferro and whatever other threats. Scp's core is a good example of how u can adapt to beat the core, but it's also an example of how ur forced to adapt since without those 3 specific mons, it doesn't really hold up to just beat 1 of kartana or meta. Not to mention that GK/Pursuit meta busts right through it because meta has way too many options to pull out. As far as I can tell Steel's been very common/dominant on ladder and it's certainly been busting up the first tour with many of these win posts either being "steel wins again" or "mirror match" which inevitably means steel for a good reason. I will say that kartana feels a lot less busted and it might be worth trying to ban only meta and then seeing if the metagame can still keep up with kartana, but that'll still be a bit shaky. We've had less than a week since the last round of bans and these two mons were put off, but I really can't see any reason to not move ahead on this as soon as possible.

if u dont wanna read a big chunk of words, tldr metagross is ultra stupid and kartana is mega stupid

The whole "lets-give-mega-metagross-a-try" experiment has been a total waste of time.

We all agree that it's stupid in monotype. But unfortunately for us, most/some of our council don't feel the same way. It's gonna be banned, just a matter of when. So lets all jump on the hype train and clock free wins till then.

on a lighter note

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493475297

★AlphaCharll:i'm not having fun

He tried to have fun on the current mono ladder. Ha, gottem!!

 

[SafariSam]

I haven't laddered with this much, but after Zydog got banned it took me a while to figure out a decent check for Ice punches from Megagross and Ice beams from Greninjas. So I came up with this set:

Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 92 SpD / 80 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Outrage
- Thousand Arrows

Defense and Offense

• 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Zygarde: 198-234 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Blizzard vs. 84 HP / 92 SpD Yache Berry Zygarde: 248-294 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
  
• 252+ Atk Sandshrew-Alola Icicle Crash vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Yache Berry Zygarde: 182-216 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
• 252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 84 HP / 92 SpD Yache Berry Zygarde: 236-282 (62.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Scarf Greninja)

==========================================================================================

• 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sandshrew-Alola: 270-318 (112 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
• +1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales-Alola: 234-276 (81.5 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• +1 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 258-306 (85.7 - 101.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  
• 252 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 169-201 (59.2 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (follow up with Espeed and you're good)

I haven't played many ladder battles with this, but it works well on tourneys. Any tips on the set let me know! :D [First post so I wanted to make it pretty]

 

[Shadestep]

I haven't really seen muh discussion on it, but what are the general thoughts on Ash-Greninja?


Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam / U-turn

Ash-Greninja boasts an insane SpAtk-stat which means it basically has very few checks on most Types, besides maybe on Water where Keldeo or SpDef Toxapex can take it on, and Poison which has things like M-Venusaur, AV Muk, and Toxapex too. But in general, against almost all other types, you're going to have to sac a Pokemon to bring in your Scarfer everytime it comes in, since there's pretty much nothing that can take a Specs Hydro / 2 Dark Pulses, and then there's also the possibility of a flinch. U-turn is great too for Ash-Gren, especially vs the matchup vs Normal and Fairy i guess.. Anyways, I think Ash-Gren really has fallen under the radar under all the other broken stuff currently running around, but I think it deserves a closer look at. The problem with this insane powerhouse is that Life Orb really shouldn't be used on it, because it's STABs are so spammable and there's no real downside to using Specs, because it's not half as prediction-heavy based as regular Greninja in XY / Oras. The only real problem that Ash-Greninja faces is getting off Battle Bond, since its power output before the Ability gets activated is quite underwhelming, and it's also a fair bit slower, making it unable to outpace Weavile, Scarf Xurkitree, and a handful of other threats.

The fact that Ash-Greninja can take on some of the most popular and 'best' (subjectivity haha) types at the moment, without requiring much support (both types it's used on have fantastic pivots into the Scarfers that can potentially outspeed and revengekill Gren), makes me believe it needs to be taken under the loop. I'm not asking for an immediate ban, or even a Suspect Test, but I think Ash-Greninja has kind-of gotten forgotten as a huge threat in the metagame and I've only recently started seeing its actual potential. Wyn made a fantastic Dark-team which aims to fully utilize Ash-Greninja's power and ability to break a lot of the fat Water-cores that Dark normally struggles to deal with very well. I'll post the team later if he passes it to me and gives me permission to share it but you can probably replace Darkrai on your SuMo Dark-teams and have decent success with it.

 

[scpinion]

The whole "lets-give-mega-metagross-a-try" experiment has been a total waste of time.

We all agree that it's stupid in monotype. But unfortunately for us, most/some of our council don't feel the same way. It's gonna be banned, just a matter of when. So lets all jump on the hype train and clock free wins till then.

on a lighter note

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493475297

★AlphaCharll:i'm not having fun

He tried to have fun on the current mono ladder. Ha, gottem!!

Cool replay! Can you guys that are trying to find replays for meta get together and play each other? You know... with competitive teams... making good plays...

That replay actually does a great job illustrating why I havent voted to ban meta yet. You're playing Psychic vs Poison (not just any poison team, but one with air balloon gengar and no mega venu!) and have hoopa, lele, and meta, yet:
★MegaGross replays:I think the game comes down to a speed tie.

If this thing is so broken, why is that your response?

I have yet to build a team that just loses to common metagross sets (I used the term "every" too loosely in my last post) because I keep it in mind when building. I'll take my L to grass knot pursuit meta if someone brings that tech, and have something in the back for that crazy set Arken is running (I'm not a fan, but I get that it does the job he wants it to do and he's successful with it). It is silly to not prepare for what is in the metagame because you have this notion that we'll just ban it if you keep losing to it (or preying on people that don't know what they're doing).

I, for one, won't make tiering decisions because something beats people that don't prepare for common metagame threats. If people actually prepare and it is still too much, then I'll consider it. That said, I do think steel is very good and probably overcentralizing, but that isn't solely because of metagross.

On mobile, so sorry for typos/formatting

 

[Entei]

I, for one, won't make tiering decisions because something beats people that don't prepare for common metagame threats. If people actually prepare and it is still too much, then I'll consider it. That said, I do think steel is very good and probably overcentralizing, but that isn't solely because of metagross.
g

would you like to elaborate on how.. say poison! is able top prep for megagross?

 

[scpinion]

would you like to elaborate on how.. say poison! is able top prep for megagross?

I haven't built poison, so no. One of those reasons is because I don't think I could build a team that checks the current metagame. Man, if only people would rationally make that argument against mega gross instead of posting crazy replays or making sarcastic remarks I might change my mind! ._.

Seriously though, the argument for why it should be banned is out there, but I've yet to see some post something convincing, especially since we banned Lele on Sunday (maybe Megazard?). I posted because gathering crappy replays and making sarcastic remarks gets us no where.

 

[Wanka]

Yeah I'very played against ash gren a lot and it's not all that much fun to play against. I've been generally building and using more offensive oriented teams from all types and ash gren really shines in those battles. It really isn't difficult for it to be able to pick off something on offense as those teams tend to not have any significant backbone to be able to switch in. And then it just gets dumb after it picks up BB. specs is really good as snakestep pointed out and I think life orb is good as well. Being able to switch between shuriken and the rest of its moves is really nice. It inherently outspeeds everything on offensive teams that isn't scarfer or boosted in some way and things that do manage to Outspeed it are either frail as dick, or weak to shuriken. (Scarf tini, scarf exca, scarf terrace etc.) I got swept by a life orb set on water while I was using elec and literally couldn't have played any better to have been able to prevent it. It outspeeds everything and then even when I thought I'd end up winning my raichu got ohkod by shuriken from 75% and then my xurkitree (a scarfer) got ohkod from like 63% in another game I found one. You basically just have to pray that it only gets 2 hits against your revenge killers or else u just get boned late game. It's definitely harder to get BB going against bulkier builds but I think the amount of pressure it puts on a lone archetype makes it a really stupid mon to play against.

Side note: sitting and their and bitching about when the council is gunna deal with gross and co. and rushing the issue is so pointless. First off, there's no rush, we have a long ass time to play this gen and it's better to take our time now and be 100% sure on decisions so we don't have to waste time in the future fixing things that got fucked up in the initial stages. I get it, I'm ancy to get the meta figured out as well, but there's no point in just sitting telling the council to basically hurry up. Not only do the chances of them listening to you lessen, it's illogical to do such. Not only will they not listen to you, it will probably strengthen their opinion that taking their time with this stuff is the right thing to do.

Sorry for shit grammar, I fail at mobile

 

[Neski]

I haven't built poison, so no. One of those reasons is because I don't think I could build a team that checks the current metagame. Man, if only people would rationally make that argument against mega gross instead of posting crazy replays or making sarcastic remarks I might change my mind! ._.

Seriously though, the argument for why it should be banned is out there, but I've yet to see some post something convincing, especially since we banned Lele on Sunday (maybe Megazard?). I posted because gathering crappy replays and making sarcastic remarks gets us no where.

Since you deleted my previous post.

"I haven't built poison, so no. One of those reasons is because I don't think I could build a team that checks the current metagame."

I think it's safe to say steel and mega metagross are a huge part of the metagame atm. As evidenced on ladder and in tours.

If you're only building teams and types that check megagross, how are you objectively going to say it's not broken in the current metagame when you have put yourself in a bubble?

 

[1 True Lycan]

Tbh I didn't really feel like posting again on this topic, but if you need replays..

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493862566 Ground vs Steel (Ground user was Sabella)
I actually ended up choking this game because I failed at the calc, but Metagross would have ended up killing Gastrodon + Zygarde and won me the game. Even as it is, it knocks out Landorus and laughs at Dugtrio's attempts at 'trapping' it. Metagross gets a kill every time it comes in against a ground team lacking hippo (assuming no grass knot), and hippo just invites skarm in to set up more spikes.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493868585 Electric vs Steel (vs Eien)
Eien makes a clever pivot from Golem into zapdos to prevent me getting a kill early on. Even so, Metagross proves why its such an offensive threat. Its bulk is showcased when it lives a LO thunderbolt in electric terrain.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-493945616 vs random poison noob LL should have used a different type skrub

I have also beaten plenty of fire teams using Metagross since it gets a kill every time with zen headbutt (hammer arm for heatran) and I can easily go to my own heatran on their scarfers. Similar story for fighting, only scarfers can threaten, and scarfers on fighting can't even 0hko metagross. Unfortunately didn't save replays.

Regarding scpinion's post;

Man, if only people would rationally make that argument against mega gross instead of posting crazy replays or making sarcastic remarks I might change my mind! ._.

Seriously though, the argument for why it should be banned is out there, but I've yet to see some post something convincing, especially since we banned Lele on Sunday (maybe Megazard?). I posted because gathering crappy replays and making sarcastic remarks gets us no where.

So you know that there's an argument for it to be banned, but instead of posting discussion on it, you just say it 'exists' and thats all? You literally agree that types such as poison (there are plenty more) have almost no counterplay to Metagross, but instead of posting an argument you just agree and then don't do anything. I'm struggling to understand this.