Do you need to meet all those requirements at once or is only one good enough?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Just one of those is enough. I guess that's why Oxford Commas are important. Besides, Quick Claw Dragapult is perfectly healthy, but Quick Claw Quaxly and Skidoo are tearing the meta to shreds. Even if we have to lose the excellent Quick Claw Nymble, it'll provide a good enough compromise to keep healthy Quick Claw usage around.
I too want Tera Preview to be implemented as an option just because I don't want a No Action repeat outcome like last suspect. If NDOU couldn't get a ban when its arguably more broken there than in SVOU, I doubt a full ban will happen in this test.
I do think Tera Preview doesn't fix anything too but its the lesser of two "evils" so let's compromise :P
I do think Tera Preview doesn't fix anything too but its the lesser of two "evils" so let's compromise :P
The entire thesis of my post is that tiering action should not be decided on a metric of "is this, at this current time bothering the playerbase", and instead on the merits of the game design decision behind it.
I do not care about the absolute specifics on the percentile odds and successes of Sand Veil because it does not matter. It is quickbanned in Gen 9 without even retrial or retest, because no one actually cares. The only reason this has not always been the truth is because people seem to always believe there is more behind something sticking around than there is, and then once it is gone, no one will miss it. The argument for elements like Bright Powder and Sand Veil and Quick Claw and King's Rock to stay around are entirely points of fruitless gesturing to a point of "Why are you so banhappy! Why would you try to make a game better!"
Why would we ever want to wait for the next one to occur, or the current one to continue, when this same thing will happen? King's Rock being banworthy was a controversial opinion, but I scarcely see anyone open up ladder and go "What this really needs is more King's Rock."
Keeping these items around is a bad game design decision, nothing more and nothing less.
Quick Claw was banned a week ago in Gen 4 OU. No one cares. No one will be asking for it to be retested, or unbanned, despite having almost no real success. Even in the thread did someone get 70 likes clutching pearls, "You guys are so banhappy!"
Quick Claw will one day be banned from almost every OU. It is an inevitability, frankly. Because while Gen 9 OU's playerbase clutches its pearls at the idea of it and similar items/abilities being banned, old metagame leaders are looking from the side, saying "Yeah, now we have a good excuse to do something that should have been done 10+ years ago.
Has tiering always been like that? No, because most tiering historically has been dogshit. Which is also why Sand Veil and its cousins. lasted as long as they did. Tiering has only improved over time, and has been more and more purposeful, and calculated.
And in Gen 10 this same conversation will occur with I dunno, Focus Band, where people will say "If you want to ban Focus Band, you have to ban Scald!" while Gen 6 OU or something has it banned in a week.
I'm not responding to anymore of these response posts because of reasons which you can DM and ask, if you truly insist.
The NatDex playerbase is a little bit different than the OU playerbase though. It has a smaller amount of dedicated players and a large number of more casual players (no offense to any Natdex mains reading this, it just seems like ND ladders have absorbed many of the people who mainly want to use a dedicated Ash Ketchum or Cynthia team or smth like that). What this would mean in practice for the OU results I don't know, but it's unsurprising that people are complaining about how these casual players presumably messed with the outcome even if I don't necessarily agree with that.
To be on topic, I don't think it will be possible to ban Tera before a restriction on it passes through because there are many fencesitters who want to try out a restriction before an outright ban. Only after that has happened will there be enough support for people to see that limiting Tera does not fix most of the fundamental problems of the mechanic, including that it overwhelmingly favours offense over other playstyles, which might actually become even worse under Tera Preview if I'm correct about the metagame impact.
There was also talk of there being potential foul play in the second NatDex test with regard to voter manipulation. Here's the source: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/post-9698778
I don't think that distinction really matters that much to be honest. If anything, if the casual playerbase mobilized enough to prevent a supermajority win, then I have nothing but respect for them. They did more than I ever could during that test haha.
That's not a source that anything actually happened. Frankly, they just said that to make people shut the fuck up publicly. Because every moment people were spreading the idea that some weird, foreign Chinese influence was spreading over their precious National Dex tier, and the evidence was a person asking others to vote the thing they wanted.
So, Avira, when are we going to investigate you for voter manipulation... You did say that people should ban Tera! Tsk, tsk, tsk...
I wasn't saying that it makes the result invalid, unless these claims of voter manipulation are true which I highly doubt (even if I think the result was a negative thing). I was merely pointing out a difference between the two playerbases.
ADV is thataway.can we start using pretty "kawaii" mons pls likeand
EDIT: This isn't even intended as sass, Charizard is legitimately great in ADV OU. Pikachu less so, but for what it's worth I saw someone getting some cheeky kills on ladder with Light Ball and Volt Tackle.
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i agree we should unban volcarona because its the most perfect design GF ever made and not being able to use it is a crimedamn we got some ugly mons this gen can we start using pretty "kawaii" mons pls like
The Ugly List for those concerned (do not use these mons):
Thanks for listening. Hope we can do better
If you want cute stuff to play with, go play Little Cup. We're a little busy here right now.
I don't know, Little Cup has that ugly mf Chewtle in it, I don't wanna play in a tier with such uglies running around tbqh imho in my opinion
lol this post pretty much sums why tera is broken, u can't even prevent it with taunt or some mechanics/abilities like the old fairy aura, no counterplay
it doesn't get the item slot, doesn't waste a turn is just a click, it even stays if u switch out
compare it to the new abilities Protosynthesis or Quark Drive that requires a weather/terrain active or an item that gets burned after u use it to see how much is busted: all this for just a single boost to 1.3 or 1.5 on speed
The trolling is real. Those Pokemon aren't even legal to play in-game. National Dex is in another thread, USUM OU is in another thread.Hello SpritePony!
I actually believe there are several cute mons that should be used more in SVOU. The metagame would be much healthier if more people used them I think! The Cute List includes:
Just wanted to highlight some cute mons that people don't seem to use anymore! Perhaps the meta would be more stable and less hyper-offense focused if people chose cute mons over ugly mons.
you must be fun at parties
Going back to the other topic of the day, randomness, I am going to put forth the following postulates as bastions of Eternal Truth, forged in fires of Shoddy and tempered with the sweat of Showdown:
1) Pokemon, as a game, is fundamentally built on random elements.
1a) One of the primary skills required when playing competitive Pokemon is managing that randomness.
1b) It is not possible to ban out the randomness in general, though specific instances can be banned.
2) We play Pokemon for fun, and as a community, have decided that competitive gameplay is fun.
2a) Competitive means both that varied styles of play are viable, and that skill matters.
2b) An element is uncompetitive when it denies the opportunity for skill, or requires otherwise nonviable counterplay.
3) As much as possible, we seek to replicate the game as could be played on the cartridge.
3a) Sleep Clause violates this, but it is an old and grumpy beast, and is grandfathered in anyway.
3b) This is not an excuse to create new violations.
4) Bans should both minimize collateral damage and be easily understood.
4a) These two goals are equally important, and neither should wholly dominate the other.
4b) If describing a a ban involves the word "If" then it is complex and shall be shunned.
===
Given all that, a random element is deserving of a ban, purely on the basis of being random (so not due to actual gameplay problems, like evasion), if it either denies team styles or denies skill. The shining example of a ban for pure uncompetitive RNG was Moody Clause: you'd throw up a mon, stall as many turns as possible to hopefully obtain evasion boosts, and then use the accumulated boosts to sweep. There existed counterplay - phasing, moves that don't check accuracy, PP stalling with an unaware mon - but these methods were nonviable, and so Moody was axed.
Static, Flame Body, Effect Spore, etc. do not outright deny skill, even as they add additional randomness, and counterplay is plentiful: non-contact moves, Protective Pads, status immunity, already being statused (Guts, Poison Heal, Rest Talk, etc.). As such, even though they are purely random, they do not qualify as uncompetitive.
Scald is much closer to being uncompetitive, as the counterplay is smaller: immunity to burn exists only through rare abilities or being a Fire type, who are hit super effectively by the move. It's less damaging to special attackers, but still deals consistent chip, whereas most special attackers simply do not care about the 30% status chance abilities, as few special attacks make contact.
Quick Claw has very limited specific counterplay: priority and Knock Off is about it. However, counterplay isn't really required - Quick Claw simply isn't strong enough to force the opponent's actions. They will accumulate small advantages on most turns by virtue of actually having functional items, and occasionally receive setbacks when Quick Claw procs on an important turn - unless it allows a KO before being attacked or an attack before a status condition/debuff/opposing
1) Pokemon, as a game, is fundamentally built on random elements.
1a) One of the primary skills required when playing competitive Pokemon is managing that randomness.
1b) It is not possible to ban out the randomness in general, though specific instances can be banned.
2) We play Pokemon for fun, and as a community, have decided that competitive gameplay is fun.
2a) Competitive means both that varied styles of play are viable, and that skill matters.
2b) An element is uncompetitive when it denies the opportunity for skill, or requires otherwise nonviable counterplay.
3) As much as possible, we seek to replicate the game as could be played on the cartridge.
3a) Sleep Clause violates this, but it is an old and grumpy beast, and is grandfathered in anyway.
3b) This is not an excuse to create new violations.
4) Bans should both minimize collateral damage and be easily understood.
4a) These two goals are equally important, and neither should wholly dominate the other.
4b) If describing a a ban involves the word "If" then it is complex and shall be shunned.
===
Given all that, a random element is deserving of a ban, purely on the basis of being random (so not due to actual gameplay problems, like evasion), if it either denies team styles or denies skill. The shining example of a ban for pure uncompetitive RNG was Moody Clause: you'd throw up a mon, stall as many turns as possible to hopefully obtain evasion boosts, and then use the accumulated boosts to sweep. There existed counterplay - phasing, moves that don't check accuracy, PP stalling with an unaware mon - but these methods were nonviable, and so Moody was axed.
Static, Flame Body, Effect Spore, etc. do not outright deny skill, even as they add additional randomness, and counterplay is plentiful: non-contact moves, Protective Pads, status immunity, already being statused (Guts, Poison Heal, Rest Talk, etc.). As such, even though they are purely random, they do not qualify as uncompetitive.
Scald is much closer to being uncompetitive, as the counterplay is smaller: immunity to burn exists only through rare abilities or being a Fire type, who are hit super effectively by the move. It's less damaging to special attackers, but still deals consistent chip, whereas most special attackers simply do not care about the 30% status chance abilities, as few special attacks make contact.
Quick Claw has very limited specific counterplay: priority and Knock Off is about it. However, counterplay isn't really required - Quick Claw simply isn't strong enough to force the opponent's actions. They will accumulate small advantages on most turns by virtue of actually having functional items, and occasionally receive setbacks when Quick Claw procs on an important turn - unless it allows a KO before being attacked or an attack before a status condition/debuff/opposing
Sarcasm is noted, having a bad day. Nothing more.
And yes, I am boring at parties, given that I don't attend parties. I don't even celebrate my own birthday.
I would like to keep more Pokemon in OU (non broken obviously) and I'm sure that isn't an unpopular opinion.
When people say Tera is fun they’re referring to situations like Tera water zapdos clinching a win from wave crash basculegion
when people say Tera is broken they’re talking about kingambit guaranteeing it’s 3x attack with 1 swords dance and three allies fainted and then proceeding to mark down your 3 remaining checks to it
when people say Tera is broken they’re talking about kingambit guaranteeing it’s 3x attack with 1 swords dance and three allies fainted and then proceeding to mark down your 3 remaining checks to it
A major issue with this is really looking at whether it is worth it to axe a generational gimmick because of it's overall impact to the metagame.
Dynamaxing was a universally unhealthy thing that forced opponents onto the back foot and DMaxing immediately in reponse. (From what I read, at least.) Just what it did to the competitive scene was disgusting. Is Tera anywhere near as bad as DMaxing? Changing types and type matchups, gaining a stronger STAB or an additional STAB...
A lot of know that something like Volcarona was always a potential massive threat. QD giving you a +3 every turn (+1/+1/+1) is exceptionally strong. Mixing that in with Flame Body, a physically bulky build makes it really good... But at base, Bug/Fire is only stopped by Fire types (Dual type not being accounted for.) Everything else it hit for at least neutral between the two. Tera allowed Volc to beat the Fires by Tera'ing into Water or Ground, and using Tera Blast over Giga Drain/Morning Sun/Wisp.
Kingambit is a scary mon at base. I can't tell you how many games I've won off of the strength of non-Tera'd Kingambit alone, and without Swords Dance at that. Supreme Overlord is one hell of an ability that takes an already GARGANTUAN 135 base Attack stat and upgrades it... For free. Tera just stacks on top of what Gambit can do, and is usually a defensive play for Gambit. Usually. Some Gambits are Tera + Tera Blast.
Personally, I am of the field of "I'd like to keep Tera if possible, but I understand if it's banned. I will be upset, as Skeledirge now becomes a lot more difficult to play, if usable at all without Tera to do its job." I enjoy Tera as a mechanic, and 9 times out of 10, I don't find it to be a problem. However, in the hands of certain Pokemon -- or in some cases, tiny little leggies, or head... hand things? -- it can be something a bit too powerful to deal with. Is this a case of Tera being too broken, or these Pokemon being massively oppressive threats by themselves, and Tera only exacerbating it?
Tired post over. I think it's just Tera exacerbating the issues with the Pokemon.
Dynamaxing was a universally unhealthy thing that forced opponents onto the back foot and DMaxing immediately in reponse. (From what I read, at least.) Just what it did to the competitive scene was disgusting. Is Tera anywhere near as bad as DMaxing? Changing types and type matchups, gaining a stronger STAB or an additional STAB...
A lot of know that something like Volcarona was always a potential massive threat. QD giving you a +3 every turn (+1/+1/+1) is exceptionally strong. Mixing that in with Flame Body, a physically bulky build makes it really good... But at base, Bug/Fire is only stopped by Fire types (Dual type not being accounted for.) Everything else it hit for at least neutral between the two. Tera allowed Volc to beat the Fires by Tera'ing into Water or Ground, and using Tera Blast over Giga Drain/Morning Sun/Wisp.
Kingambit is a scary mon at base. I can't tell you how many games I've won off of the strength of non-Tera'd Kingambit alone, and without Swords Dance at that. Supreme Overlord is one hell of an ability that takes an already GARGANTUAN 135 base Attack stat and upgrades it... For free. Tera just stacks on top of what Gambit can do, and is usually a defensive play for Gambit. Usually. Some Gambits are Tera + Tera Blast.
Personally, I am of the field of "I'd like to keep Tera if possible, but I understand if it's banned. I will be upset, as Skeledirge now becomes a lot more difficult to play, if usable at all without Tera to do its job." I enjoy Tera as a mechanic, and 9 times out of 10, I don't find it to be a problem. However, in the hands of certain Pokemon -- or in some cases, tiny little leggies, or head... hand things? -- it can be something a bit too powerful to deal with. Is this a case of Tera being too broken, or these Pokemon being massively oppressive threats by themselves, and Tera only exacerbating it?
Tired post over. I think it's just Tera exacerbating the issues with the Pokemon.
Kingambit is one of the most insane Pokémon to ever rule over OU, saving this thing for end game and clicking sucker punch has won me many games that IMHO should have been losses for me. I’d even argue that it’s as good of an end game cleaner as houndstone was before it/last respects was axed from the tier
Actually you are
#freethemoth
Lando is on the top 3 ugliest mons ever but we have had to deal with for so long, even in this gen when it isn't nearly as good as it was before.
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