Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[FCKNfuego]

Can we actually look into Booster Energy before any of the mons that abuse it...

 

[Return to Zero]

it's not even better than tusk

Absolutely not.

Guess I'll go ahead and rate these guys too...

See my above post. 5/5

Not quickban-worthy like her Fire self, but this one needs to be looked at. It feels very uniquely difficult to find switch-ins for and ways to keep it from doing its things. Water/Grass is super potent and it outspeeds a large chunk of stuff that might threaten it otherwise, and Embody Aspect actually makes this thing really tanky. Not a fan. 4/5

I've said this before, but Gholdengo is the most centralizing thing in the metagame right now. This single mon is half the reason hazard stacking is so effective and hard to play against. There's no shortage of counterplay against it, but it needs to be discussed solely because the tier has been warped around it from the start and every new fantastic hazard setter added makes it better. In essence, it's discussing if the metagame we want is one with Gholdengo in it, and thus one where hazard stacking is this powerful. 3/5

Not the most problematic thing in the tier, when it has to exist alongside Manaphy and Kingambit and Gholdengo is half the reason its Spikes are so effective, but the other half is just that there's not a whole lot of ways to shut Gliscor down. I'm glad A-Ninetales and Aurora Veil are so popular right now because we are in sore need of things that can actually outspeed and OHKO it. I admit I'm not as worried about it though, since a hypothetical Gholdengo ban would be a big enough nerf to potentially bring it into line and all the DLC needs to introduce to hurt it is anything moderately fast that gets Ice Beam. 3/5

Using this thing always makes me feel like I'm cheating. I don't like that there aren't many ways to actually shut it down other than phasing and just getting to it before it boosts too high, and that it forces certain answers from people. Between the Tera types I've seen for it between Steel, Poison, and Dragon, it's also got a little bit of that Kingambit "I can flip half my losing matchups with Tera but you don't know which ones so you better guess right" Tera abuse nonsense. And this is also the generation where Sticky Web is a consistently good OU strategy right now, so... 4/5

Maaaaaaaaybe. There's nothing in OU that straight up counters this thing, but what it does isn't unique and can be played around with common answers. It's just that Knock Off is so insane on this thing, really. But also its defensive typing only gives it some niche switch-ins and otherwise makes it super easy to OHKO, so it's reliant on Tera... Either way, I think this is the lowest priority for a ban right now. Somehow. 2/5

 

[Return to Zero]

Can we actually look into Booster Energy before any of the mons that abuse it...

Why? Booster Energy doesn't break mons by itself. Otherwise, every Paradox Pokemon would end up with a BL placement.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

I would like to repeat what I have said in this thread before since I am seeing a lot of comments about how improved defog distribution would make Gholdengo fine: the specially defensive set in National Dex where both Tornadus and Zapdos have defog is designed to live heat wave from offensive Torn-T while OHKOing it back with a +2 Make It Rain. Birds that can offensively pressure it does not change the calculus much, it just forces a steel/ghost mon with recover and Zapdos-level bulk to tweak its EV spread a bit.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Why? Booster Energy doesn't break mons by itself. Otherwise, every Paradox Pokemon would end up with a BL placement.

Ah yes, the most deadly kind of Pokemon.

The Fujoshi-type.

 

[Magcargo]

Yeah, I too do not believe Gholdengo to be a massive issue. If Gholdengo was an issue, it would be for reasons unrelated to its ability to block defog, namely its insanely positive matchups vs certain defensive Pokemon, which could be considered unreasonably good. Mons like Toxapex, Empoleon, Amoonguss, and Corviknight match-up incredibly poorly vs Gholdengo, and it could be argued that other Pokemon since as Gliscor, Clodsire, and Ting-Lu get completed destroyed by certain Gholdengo variants (i.e. Tera Flying / Fairy, Air Balloon, Psyshock). That being said, I don't believe even this makes Gholdengo banworthy currently. Banning Gholdengo in a metagame with few defoggers will not be the magical silver bullet that will fix the hazard issue, espicially since mons like Corviknight have other high value moves that they would rather run like U-Turn, Iron Defense and Body Press. I have used Defog Corv on double Hazard removal teams and I believe that even these styles still have issues removing hazards vs non-Gholdengo squads. If more Defoggers get added via a Defog TM, then Gholdengo ban will have merit, but currently I don't think banning it is the right call.

Manaphy, I don't think is an issue either. From using it and fighting it, I find it incredibly inconsistent to other Stored Power win cons like Hatterene and Armarouge due to its lack of self sustain and inability to boost its speed. An incredibly poor MU with Encore Ogerpon does it no favors. It certainly can sweep, but being able to sweep does not make a mon broken.

Roaring Moon is possibly broken, but I am incredibly biased against this Pokemon, as I do not believe a Pokemon with 139 Attack and 119 Speed, decent bulk, and Dragon Dance has any place in OU in general. That being said, this Pokemon is about as threatening as its always been and while Knock Off is a fantastic tool, I don't find it overwhelmingly more broken currently than it was in prior metagames.

Part of me thinks Booster energy is becoming a problem. One element I don't like about SV is the number of Speed ties that will decide the game, and booster energy sort of contributes to this due to drastically raising the speed tiers. In particular, Iron Moth dittos feel like a complete crapshoot, as Iron Moth is one of the better switch-ins to itself on certain styles and factors such as which Iron Moth gets the Special Attack raises first, which one switches in on the other, which one Teras and doesn't get hit all make the ditto feel like a crapshoot. That being said,, other dittos aren't as egrigious as this example. Furthermore, Booster Energy Encore on Iron Valiant is an important tool to stop some key setup sweepers, so booster Energy is likely not the issue here.

I've been finding it much harder to sweep with Kingambit lately. The DLC added a lot of good Encore mons, and mons like Roaring Moon, Iron Moth, and Zamazenta seeing increased usage does not do it any favors. I think it might be broken, but considering its suspect wasn't to long ago, I don't think any action is necessary currently.

Gliscor I think is problematic. Again, it forces very annoying dittos, as its often the best answer to itself, though other Pokemon such as Hatterene and Corviknight perform fine against it (though both struggle against some of Gliscors common partners, be it Gholdengo or stall buddies like CM Blissey). Its ability to 1v1 threats like Cinderace, Zapdos, Tusk, etc. with the ToxTect combo is just too good. Against any Pokemon without a Toxic immunity, it will likely win the long game if it lands the Toxic, which makes switching into this Pokemon directly incredibly risky. Really though, the main thing pushing it over the edge is Spikes, which it can use with the aforementioned tools to overwhelm Tusk and Cinderace. I think this may moreso just be a Spikes issue, however, as other Pokemon like Samurott-H, and Ting-Lu aren't that far behind Gliscor in terms of potency (despite lacking some obvious benefits) and most likely need to be looked at as well.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I don't mind people hating on Gliscor. Its annoying and everyone knows it. But Gholdengo has been assisting a lot of hazard setters long before the DLC came out. If Gliscor is banned, H-Samurott will be back to business and hazards aren't going anywhere. Gholdengo is the biggest enabler of the hazard heavy meta for the past 11 months of SV OU. As good as its defensive profile is, and diversity, Gholdengo in the long run will continue to hurt the meta in terms of hazard, and banning hazard setter is just putting band aid on wound instead of getting proper medication.

TLDR, Gholdengo has enjoyed a long time in OU, and some people had a hazard fun meta with it. But if we want the meta to change, then Gholdengo needs to leave.

This isn't undermining how problematic Gliscor is, it's fine to suspect test Gliscor after Gholdengo is taken care of. But we need to remember that there are no shortage of hazard spammers in the meta, even if they are worse than Gliscor. But there's only one Gholdengo around.

 

[tr8orsrequiem]

Tera:
5/5. Broken, incredibly uninteresting mechanic that for some godforsaken reason people can't stop defending. I genuinely do not see what people enjoy about this mechanic, even in the slightest. It is by far the least interesting and most obnoxious generation mechanic we've had so far. Between forcing annoying 50/50s and completely warping the entire metagame around who can do stupid shit with tera first, it's obvious that it's the major problem making this tier downright unplayable right now.

Kingambit:
10/5. 5/5. This thing is so far beyond broken it should've been quickbanned and left to rot in UUbers pre-home. There's not a lot to say about this, most discussions have already gone over it and why it's one of the main things actively ruining the tier. I genuinely think if you're not voting a minimum of a 4 on this you're either delusional or lying. Plenty of people have gone over the myriad reasons this thing does not belong in the tier and they're all pretty objective and sound arguments, there is no good argument for keeping it in the tier.


Manaphy:
3/5. It's very good and quite annoying for defensive teams to deal with, but it's far from impossible to handle. I can see it going either way, and I won't mind if it stays or goes, at least right now. My opinion could change if more things get banned, but otherwise I don't think Manaphy is the main problem.

Gholdengo:
5/5. It astounds me people are blaming Gliscor for this things warcrimes. This fucker completely warps the entire hazard game around it, and I don't think there's any argument around that. Sure, we have less defoggers now than we ever have. But if you look back at previous generations, most Pokemon with defog never run it- it was almost always the same few mons using defog. I don't see how that's any different now, except those mons that would never run defog because they'd rather run almost anything else, now just outright don't have it. We have several defoggers and several rapid spinners who would be more than capable of removing hazards if this little shit was not running around causing issues. Corv, Mandibuzz, Scizor, Talonflame, and Iron Treads are all certainly decent enough to be able to successfully defog in a metagame where Defog can't be blocked with absolutely 0 skill necessary by switching in your dumbass string cheese mon. Its unprecedented utility combined with its wallbreaking potential and its ability to run effectively whatever the hell it wants makes it, in my opinion, obviously wayyyy too much for OU. Get it out of here.

Waterpon:
4/5. Waterpon is obnoxiously strong and, very similar to Firepon, completely annihilates defensive team structures in a very unhealthy way IMO. It at least is kind of wallable with things such as Tera Grass Dondozo, but I really shouldn't be 100% forced to tera grass Dozo ASAP in a game with this thing on the opposing team. Its ability to just force it in and then cripple it by knocking off its boots is a major problem IMO, though that partially also ties into the broken ass hazard metagame right now.

Roaring Moon:
3/5. Roaring Moon is extremely good, but I don't think it's very broken. It definitely deserves a close eye on it, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the thing go, but just as with Manaphy, I think it's got enough ways to deal with it that it's not really much of an issue. It almost feels like Roaring Moon kind of thrives in hectic metagames, since it dropped off hard both after a while in base S/V and in the Home meta.

Gliscor:
1/5. I get its hazards and longevity are annoying, but annoying =/= unbalanced. This metagame desperately needs defensive answers to things, and Gliscor provides that in droves. To be honest, I think a lot of people who want this thing gone are just too HO-brained to realise that defensive mons are good for the health of the meta, actually. It spitting up a million hazards isn't exactly unique to it and if you're going to ban this thing for being a hazard fountain then you should want Hamurott, Ting Lu, and basically every other spiker in the game gone. It's not an issue. Gholdengo is. If it still somehow ends up being an issue after a Gholdengo ban, then we can start talking about banning it. I will be incredibly disappointed in and quite frankly concerned for the quality of the community if this thing gets banned.

 

[That_Dwayneee]

5
Getting reverse swept by this thing is an inevitability. It's happened to all of us at one point. Dread it, run from it, destiny still arrives. In terms of a real opinion the problem with gambit is that it cannot coexist with OU for as long as tera is in the equation - it uses a mechanic that's already too overtuned far too well. Rewards bad play, get the fuck out of my tier.

5
Mostly speaking from personal experience but if you want to use roaring moon optimally you just need to lobotomise yourself, use any playstyle that lets it set up, get off a singular dragon dance, and then ohko everything with knock off or acrobatics. The only obstacle between you and your sweep now is flame body and static which if you're running stone edge over eq just aren't an issue. Dumb as fuck.

4
I'm honestly torn between 3 and 4 on this mon, but that's cause I was using tail glow on a veil team, when I could very easily be using the same set on a webs team, or just outright using a bulky set. Most of all I say 4 rather than 3 because balance has it hard enough right now, we don't need this shit.

5
I cannot name one consistent switch-in to a +2 ogerpon-w that isn't reliant on tera.

2
Just kinda annoying tbh.

4
This is the problem with gliscor. I get the concern about taunt gliscor blocking corv defog but it can't even fit all the moves it wants to on the same set as it is. Ghold is the problem. Balanced in a vacuum, broken thanks to the fact that in the current metagame you have to pick between a good pokemon or a good hazard removal option. Air balloon ghold has warped the tier into a hazard laden mess with webs being viable only partly due to offensive powercreep and mostly due to this fucking thing bullying great tusk into a guessing game where it either clicks a move that it wants to click more anyway or pop the balloon and if it guesses wrong it either has to swap, die, or take damage to the point where it can't repeat the guessing game. The ONLY reason this mon is at a 4 is because it is just BARELY balanced if mons aren't taking 25% coming in and certain unaware mons as well as heatran can check it well enough to say that it can be beaten.

And now, just because I've seen other people write stuff about the mechanic;

Terastalisation 5
This mechanic has polarised the metagame to an insane proportion, throughout the entire gen so far ho has been the best or close to the best playstyle because of this mechanic. Even if we ignore the mons that are outright broken due to it, tera still has an unhealthy effect as mons can tera out of weaknesses, and pick up sweeps with incredible ease just because they can do that to bypass what would otherwise be an easy ko. It even makes the gap between OU and UU (at least before dlc tier shifts happened), which leads to the tier being far less diverse in terms of viable picks (though dlc1 has slightly rectified that) and also how effectively you can find niches for even mons below UU. I don't like this mechanic or what it has done to the tier by any definition of the word.

 

[manyproblems]

Hippocrates said all disease begins in the gut, but at smogon, cancer cells cannot survive without entry hazards. Almost 2024 and we still playing with hazards, this aids should have been gone 15 years ago back when we had to use Forretress. The meta will be more free than American without it. And while we're at it fuck tera off so I can braindead spam Regileki. MOUGA, fuck hazards fuck every new gen gimmick.

 

[Eeveeto]

Tera: 0/5
Gliscor: 5/5
Manaphy: 4/5
Waterpon: 3/5
Gholdengo: 5/5
Roaring Moon: 3/5
Kingambit: 3/5

Won't elaborate.

 

[Wolf-X]

Why not test a Teraless meta and then decide if banning Tera or banning Kingambit and Gholdengo? Although Gholdengo might need a ban anyway, Its just too centralizing thanks to its broken ability + nice typing

Biggest issues right now feel like Gholdengo and Kingambit. Gliscor is annoying but fine otherwise.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

Why not test a Teraless meta and then decide if banning Tera or banning Kingambit and Gholdengo? Although Gholdengo might need a ban anyway, Its just too centralizing thanks to its broken ability + nice typing

Biggest issues right now feel like Gholdengo and Kingambit. Gliscor is annoying but fine otherwise.

Testing a teraless meta is a pretty useless idea because we wouldn't actually get any valuable data from it. It's such a massive change that we would need months to sort out the new brokens from the old ones, to sort out what works and what doesn't, and to sort out whether the meta is actually healthier and more competitive or not. If we have it during a 3 week long suspect, things would still be volatile enough that it'd be extremely difficult to tell whether things are actually better/worse than before. And I doubt we'd get a 2 month or however long it'd take to get a good feel on things suspect.

 

[1LDK]

Won't elaborate.

Reconsider

Anyway, on to mine

I believe that in this meta, there's currently 2 play styles right now, ogerpon HO and gliscor balance. I also believe these 2 are the only S tier mons in this meta. And both deserving of suspect + ban

is impossible to take down (unless your me and everyone crits random tera ice tera blast) sets up everything for free, its a gen 8 mon in a gen 9 world, it has the knock off + toxic combo, it has U-turn, tera allows him to circumvent its typing and once poison, its basically a perfect pivot, this thing alone makes balance the second-best play style in this meta (who was the worst play style)

While easier to take down, it's fast, it's strong, it can bypass everything with encore + Ivy Cudgel crits, sd hits like a truck, it has uturn, knock off, horn leech to take on chip damage. And has great defensive utility for an offensive mon, immunity to water, spore, resistant to rocks

Ogerpon and gliscor right now are like in Kaguya-Sama love is war, where every five minutes they passive-aggressive try to double switch and try to get the other one, if oger miss predicts, gliscor lands toxic, and it's over for her, and if gliscor miss predicts, 1 SD and gliscor has to fucking run

If Oger is Kaguya, Gliscor is shirogane, then is chika

I think Gholdengo is the third-best Pokémon in the meta, only behind the already mentioned 2, its control over the hazard game is clear as water
"hmm, but he doesn't show up every game" and "there are plenty of spikers"
There's this thing called the 5 monke experiment, it didn't actually happen, but it was a lie with like 30 years, so whatever. The experiment was about putting 5 monkeys, a ladder and at the top of the ladder some bananas, every time one monkey tried to climb up the ladder, everyone was blasted with water. Eventually, the monkeys just stopped from climbing the ladder, they changed one of the monkeys for a new one, and that monkey tried to climb up the ladder, but was beat up by the other monkeys

Why am I telling you people this? Simple, we are the monkeys, the food is more diverse hazard removal, and the stairs are defoggers, the water is gholdengo, we are so brain wired in preparing for the hazard meta, either you're using superman teams, you are packing 2 or even 3 hazard removers, your HO, so you believe you can finish the game before that happens, or your stall, and you just don't care

And this is why Gholdengo is unconventionally broken, the mon itself is easy to counter, and yet its presence is so enforced and hidden, he is in every game without being in every game. I could talk on and on about this, but I'm gonna save it for a future suspect (I hope there is one)

its not broken, will never be broken, Its the fourth-best Pokémon in the meta don't get me wrong, but its not broken, nothing changed for him since the last time, it just partners well with the chaos of the meta

its not broken, it just partners well with ogerpon-ho

overrated, wait until you see AV Valiant tho, heat

overrated

every time I load up manaphy, I get baited by the wackiest trick scarfer ever. I don't know if it's truly broken, ogerpon would go first to trully know

tera: The higher your ethics are, the less broken you will find tera, because you use it to build, not destroy

I think I have everything, anyway I'm going to the supermarket, you guys want anything?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

These takes are about to make a Chi-Yus overheat look 10 base power...

Tera: exclusively a good thing, skillful and not 50/50, pushes the metagame to a more balanced state (it's already dominated by HO but it would be even worse without tera), adds way more counterplay to every threat. -5 banning it would kill SV.

not broken at all, super splashable counterplay, amazing at checking shit, acts as an excellent glue mon allowing you to use shitmons easier. 1.

lmao why are we even discussing it, it's good but being banworthy is laughable. Fell off after the bans nerfed veil. 1.

only hazard remover that really cares is corv but even then corv still sucks on most teamstyles. adds a sturdy check to top mons such as valiant. Not broken, 1.

shits annoying sometimes but it offers a unique defensive profile among offensive mons, speed tier and 4mss hold it back. 2.

makes building offense a pain and doesn't really provide much utility or defensive presence, I don't think it's broken but I can't make an argument for it to stay in the tier really. 3.

honestly gliscor is overrated it's not even better than tusk let alone broken. 1.

i legitimately cannot see how someone who has ever played an sv ou match could emit all of these takes at once. what you're implying with these votes is that you believe either the meta is almost perfect or the council is focusing exclusively on the wrong things. please explain to the rest of us what's going on in your head because i cannot for the life of me get in a headspace where i see gambit as anything less than broken

 

[Tio Chico]

Ogerpon and gliscor right now are like in Kaguya-Sama love is war, where every five minutes they passive-aggressive try to double switch and try to get the other one, if oger miss predicts, gliscor lands toxic, and it's over for her, and if gliscor miss predicts, 1 SD and gliscor has to fucking run

If Oger is Kaguya, Gliscor is shirogane, then is chika

Loved this , but really agree about Gholdengo/monkeys/bananas

its not broken, it just partners well with ogerpon-ho

So

is Hayasaka?

My problem with this thing is more about item clause.
Need Waterpon out to trully see if is a trouble imo.

 

[TCTphantom]

5/5. Honestly, I’m shocked it survived its suspect. Gambit is a huge problem in the way it homogenizes the endgame and warps the tier. I’m probably gonna say it shouldn’t be the next suspect, but I want an eye kept on this as hard as possible.

2/5. Honestly, not as sole on this thing being broken. It’s a solid set up sweeper sure, but it’s fine imo. I think one issue is it fell off and people just weren’t prepping for it as much. Turns out it’s a lot better in a meta not prepared for it.

2/5. Ogerpon is a symptom, not the cause of the problems in the meta imo. Part of why it’s so splashable is its good defensive profile and synergy. Being a great Manaphy heck helps a lot. I think it’s fine, but far from a priority for us. SD is scary, but not impossible to deal with like Firepon.

/ 5/5 for Ghold, 1/5 for Gliscor. Gliscor is dumb but the problem is Gholdengo. The way it warps the hazards meta makes Gliscor so dumb. Gliscor is just the next evolution of Samurott H or Ting Lu for hazards spam. If you want to fix hazards, ban Gholdengo ASAP.

4/5. Tera Manaphy is dumb. It’s a dumb scary wall breaker, but it’s not the top priority. Test Ghold or Gambit first.

5/5 free him in dlc2 plz finch

 

[dragonbr]

to anybody who doesn’t think gliscor is a broken mf… i present the kinGliscor replay, with his signature ability, Supreme OverHeal!
Watch till the End
And to my opponent,
I am very sorry.
But you deserved it.
And to Mr. Scor?
What are they feeding you…

View attachment 561701

I don't think Indigo Disk is going to be the one that suddenly introduces the consistent Kingambit counter everyone agrees is healthy for the tier.

I wonder what upper hand will do, I think it might lower the viability of gambit but increase the volatility of the endgame play, and not actually reduce his usage even if he has more counterplay…

 

[Alternator]

I'm going to do that old man thing again, where I reminisce about the days of yore.

Once upon a time, OU had four hazard removers: Cloyster, Forretress, Golem, and Starmie.
Once upon a time, OU had four hazard removers: Claydol, Cloyster, Forretress, and Starmie.
Once upon a time, OU had three hazard removers: Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel.
Once upon a time, OU had six hazard removers: Cloyster, Donphan, Excadrill, Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel.
* Though then they banned Dugtrio, and Donphan remained in OU because tiers were frozen, despite no longer having any value, leaving five.
* Though Forretress is bad in OU, so if we're only talking viable mons, there's actually four.

Now upon a time, OU has four hazard removers: Cinderace, Corviknight, Glimmora and Great Tusk.

We're not actually all that low on OU-by-usage hazard removal options if you compare things to the pre-Defog days. It's a step back in options compared to recent generations, but an obviously intentional one given Defog's reduced distribution.

My question is this: are we going to play with the mons that GameFreak gave us, or are we going to tailor our ban list to create something comforting and familiar? I don't mean this to be rhetorical or trite - SV chopped back move availability, introduced a lot of incredibly powerful signature moves and abilities, and dropped about two dozen high BST mons to flood the tiers.

If we take what GameFreak gave us, the metagame is going to be heavily skewed toward offense, which means stall feasts but bulky offense (or slower) is going to struggle and feel limited. If we customize the tier, we're going to be banning a lot of mons in the quest to force more variety.



PS: If you really hate Gliscor and want it to lose to your hazard removal, reject elephant and return to mousey.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 330-390 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Naraku Kirigiri]

3/5 spiker that lives forever, beats tusk and cinderace, forces gliscor vs gliscor action, i can see going into a suspect

2/5 only thing being benefited from him going away is corviknight, defog distribution is so bad it doesnt really make that much of a difference

2/5 or 1/5, if it was pre dlc it would be 4 or 5 but its manageable now

???/5 i havent experienced much of this and the only ones i fought were defeated quickly, no comment on this

5/5 has no switch ins except super niche stuff, even things that should check it like meow or amoonguss die to coverage

1/5 overrated as hell

 

[artificialdeath]

Ah yes, the most deadly kind of Pokemon.

The Fujoshi-type.

What if Iron Hands was renamed Yaoi Hands and its main body got much skinnier but its robot hands remained the same

i mean consider what tier it's been in all gen

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Once upon a time, OU had four hazard removers: Cloyster, Forretress, Golem, and Starmie.
Once upon a time, OU had four hazard removers: Claydol, Cloyster, Forretress, and Starmie.
Once upon a time, OU had three hazard removers: Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel.
Once upon a time, OU had six hazard removers: Cloyster, Donphan, Excadrill, Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel.
* Though then they banned Dugtrio, and Donphan remained in OU because tiers were frozen, despite no longer having any value, leaving five.
* Though Forretress is bad in OU, so if we're only talking viable mons, there's actually four.

Now upon a time, OU has four hazard removers: Cinderace, Corviknight, Glimmora and Great Tusk.

once upon a time, ou had three spikes setters: cloyster, forretress, and qwilfish.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: cloyster, forretress, omastar, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: forretress, froslass, roserade, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had seven spikes setters: accelgor, ferrothorn, forretress, froslass, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had six spikes setters: chesnaught, ferrothorn, forretress, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had six spikes setters: chesnaught, ferrothorn, greninja, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: ferrothorn, froslass, klefki, mew, and skarmory.

now upon a time, ou has nine spikes setters: clodsire, glimmora, gliscor, greninja, meowscarada, waterpon, sandy shocks, hisuian samurott, and ting-lu. if we count the niche picks like klefki, garchomp, mew, toedscruel, pincurchin, quagsire, rockpon, grasspon, gastrodon, chesnaught, and overqwil, we can bump it up to twenty mons with at least a niche in the tier and the ability to set up spikes.

can you spot the difference here?

 

[Pando067]

once upon a time, ou had three spikes setters: cloyster, forretress, and qwilfish.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: cloyster, forretress, omastar, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: forretress, froslass, roserade, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had seven spikes setters: accelgor, ferrothorn, forretress, froslass, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had six spikes setters: chesnaught, ferrothorn, forretress, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had six spikes setters: chesnaught, ferrothorn, greninja, scolipede, skarmory, and smeargle.
once upon a time, ou had five spikes setters: ferrothorn, froslass, klefki, mew, and skarmory.

now upon a time, ou has nine spikes setters: clodsire, glimmora, gliscor, greninja, meowscarada, waterpon, sandy shocks, hisuian samurott, and ting-lu. if we count the niche picks like klefki, garchomp, mew, toedscruel, pincurchin, quagsire, rockpon, grasspon, gastrodon, chesnaught, and overqwil, we can bump it up to twenty mons with at least a niche in the tier and the ability to set up spikes.

can you spot the difference here?

gen 9 ou is kinda spiky

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

Kingambit:
10/5. 5/5. This thing is so far beyond broken it should've been quickbanned and left to rot in UUbers pre-home.

not even, it's B+ in the current ubers vr in a tier filled with gen 9's wacky powercreep sweepers, why is it still here

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Now upon a time, OU has four hazard removers: Cinderace, Corviknight, Glimmora and Great Tusk.

Fake hazard removal, can't remove hazards because it's walled by ghold, ho lead, and a mon that would rather click any move except rapid spin and is bullied hard by gholdengo