np: UU - A New Beginning

[Flash_gearz]

Whats the difference between Cacturne, and a Toxicroak running a similar set in uu?

All of Cacturne's Sandstorm benefits are pretty useless, unless you bring Hippotatas up, and thats limiting yourself to 5 pokemon really. And maybe 5 base points more. Not going to make much of a difference. Typing doesn't do as much. Takes neutral to fighting, and resists ground, while Toxicroak resists fighting, and rock, but takes x2 from ground, and also gets a resist from Dry Skin, where watter attacks are pretty common.

I can't really see cactune outclass Toxicroak. They are basically the same, with slight differences based on typing.

 

[Legacy Raider]

I guess Cacturne's higher Atk stat, STAB Sucker Punch and great SpA stat make it a somewhat better wallbreaker. It is fast enough to be EVed to outspeed walls, strong enough in both offensive stats to break walls from both spectrums, and with its extremely powerful Sucker Punch can deal with any faster sweeper that tries to take it down.

<3 Cacturne. But that's not to say it outclasses Toxicroak - Toxicroak's typing itself is a great asset, and Cacturne can't raise its SpA with Nasty Plot. I think they both work in different ways, with Cacturne being a stronger wallbreaker, but Toxicroak a more reliable sweeper not so dependent on perfect prediction.

 

[MDougal]

unless you bring Hippotatas up, and thats limiting yourself to 5 pokemon really.

I strongly disagree. I've been running him as my lead for awhile and he works suprisingly well. He's unexpectedly bulky, to the point that his Focus Sash is almost useless.
340 HP and 255 Def go farther then you'd think.

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sdef
Stealth Rock
Yawn
Roar
Protect

Depending on the lead (if they setup or attack), I either Protect or SR on the first turn. From there I Yawn then immediately Roar, forcing 1/3 of his team in SR and Sandstorm damage (unlike OU, a lot of UU takes damage). I do however make sure he doesn't die, even if he only survives with 1% and theres entry hazards in play, it's worth keeping him alive. Just incase the other team has weather.

 

[tennisace]

Problem with that is that the two most common leads beat it. Crobat Taunts you and shuts you down, and Froslass can Ice Beam you into oblivion. Sure, you can Protect and outstall the inevitable, but they still beat you turn 2 if you don't switch, meaning all you did was save death fodder for later and set up SS. It really isn't a good trade-off.

 

[MDougal]

just because you have to switch out doesn't mean all it's functionality is lost. it can still force switches and stall.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Well, maybe having a team of 5, and a permanent Sandstorm is actually worth it! I doubt it to be honest, but it could be...

Then again, I wouldn't mind if Hippopotas got into UU, because then it wouldn't be in NU, which I wouldn't be too fond of.

 

[Heysup]

SS can be used in a good team, but seriously you cant use Hippopotas to set up SR reliably, its too slow and gets taunted. You cant put a lum berry on it because it will always get OHKOd if it doesnt get taunted.

MDougal, that is the most unrealistic thing i have read recently. You Protect first turn, and then you die. You dont Yawn and Roar after you protect, because you die. It cant set up SR against anything, bar Focus Sash sets against an attacker without taunt, which dont lead.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

SS can be used in a good team, but seriously you cant use Hippopotas to set up SR reliably, its too slow and gets taunted.

It cant set up SR against anything, bar Focus Sash sets against an attacker without taunt, which dont lead.

That first part doesn't really make sense by itself as I don't know of any common Stealth Rocker in UU that is 'too fast' to get taunted first. The whole point of a Stealth Rock user is to find a comfortable switch-in against a non-taunter you can wall, then Stealth Rock as they switch or whatever.

But therein lies Hippopotas' problem. It doesn't really 'wall' anything in the current UU metagame, even on the physical side (its not like Blaziken, Torterra, Feraligatr, Azumarill etc will be fleeing in fear from it). You're somewhat wrong though, it CAN set up SR against some things such as Chansey and Clefable, but then so can just about anything. If I were ever to try a Sandstorm team, I'd probably EV my Hippopotas on the special defensive side instead, mainly so that it could tank against those Raikous that are running HP Ground instead of Grass / Ice (which are very common atm) but also so that it would have a better chance to survive any unboosted neutral hits with comfort on either side. After setting up Sand and SR, anything else it can do is simply a bonus, so why not design it specifically for one or two common threats while you're at it? Just so that you're not necessarily starting off 5-6 with a couple of extras thrown in.

And of course, Hippopotas should ALWAYS have Earthquake at the very least. As if it's going to find the opportunities to warrant all those support moves lol. At least give yourself a reliable fallback option.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, maybe having a team of 5, and a permanent Sandstorm is actually worth it! I doubt it to be honest, but it could be...

Then again, I wouldn't mind if Hippopotas got into UU, because then it wouldn't be in NU, which I wouldn't be too fond of.

That's a good point, I never thought of that. Hippopatas and Snover might actually be quite usable in NU. Well, with sweepers like Swellow, Absol and Omastar around, maybe not but . . .

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

That's a good point, I never thought of that. Hippopatas and Snover might actually be quite usable in NU. Well, with sweepers like Swellow, Absol and Omastar around, maybe not but . . .

Well, they'll certainly be better in comparison to the rest of the tier then. :)

The thing is, they're weather Pokemon, so it is likely that the tiers they end up in will be full of Pokemon with better stats than them, as with Hippopotas, some people are using him in an environment containing Registeel, Raikou and Shaymin, solely for his weather ability, so I'm sure more people will be willing to use him in NU.

If Hippopotas doesn't make UU, I can see it, and Snover, making NU, solely for their abilities, even if their stats suggest that they should be fighting with things like Delibird, Lairon, Mighteyena, Abra and Lickitung, rather than with Pokemon like Articuno, Absol, Hitmonlee, etc.

I hope what I said makes sense. It's another case of this whole tier fluctuation issue, that we're seeing with Steel and Dragon types at the moment.

 

[Heysup]

Well, they'll certainly be better in comparison to the rest of the tier then. :)

The thing is, they're weather Pokemon, so it is likely that the tiers they end up in will be full of Pokemon with better stats than them, as with Hippopotas, some people are using him in an environment containing Registeel, Raikou and Shaymin, solely for his weather ability, so I'm sure more people will be willing to use him in NU.

If Hippopotas doesn't make UU, I can see it, and Snover, making NU, solely for their abilities, even if their stats suggest that they should be fighting with things like Delibird, Lairon, Mighteyena, Abra and Lickitung, rather than with Pokemon like Articuno, Absol, Hitmonlee, etc.

I hope what I said makes sense. It's another case of this whole tier fluctuation issue, that we're seeing with Steel and Dragon types at the moment.

It would be quite difficult to place Snover for many reasons. In NU there will be no Stallrein or Froslass able to make Hail TOO rediculous.

But if its usable in NU, then the problem actually still resides in UU, Hail is too strong. Its slightly weaker but you still have all of the "broken" aspects of hail in Wallrein, Froslass and Glaceon.

I wonder if this is the one case where a Pokemon isnt Broken in a lower tier but is broken in a Higher tier...

 

[Trust]

In NU Hail could be good with Glalie, which has the same trait as Walrein: Ice Body, so don't forget that it can be sturdier in NU than Walrein in UU.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

It would be quite difficult to place Snover for many reasons. In NU there will be no Stallrein or Froslass able to make Hail TOO rediculous.

But if its usable in NU, then the problem actually still resides in UU, Hail is too strong. Its slightly weaker but you still have all of the "broken" aspects of hail in Wallrein, Froslass and Glaceon.

I wonder if this is the one case where a Pokemon isnt Broken in a lower tier but is broken in a Higher tier...

So, you mean Snover might be sort of like Porygon 2? Porygon 2 seems to fare better in OU than UU, even though UU is supposed to be weaker. But Snover will more far more extreme?

That might be the case. It's extremely hard to speculate about I guess. If Glaceon gets into NU (which I doubt), Snover may be used there.

There's also Glalie and Sealeo, who have Walrein's trait, as Trust said. Glalie only has 80/80/80 defenses, and Sealeo has 90/70/70, so I don't know. Sealeo is very bad offensively, and Galie has got a terrible defensive type combo. I doubt they'd be broken.

 

[MDougal]

MDougal, that is the most unrealistic thing i have read recently. You Protect first turn, and then you die. You dont Yawn and Roar after you protect, because you die. It cant set up SR against anything, bar Focus Sash sets against an attacker without taunt, which dont lead.

hey man, have you tried it? for one, it never gets one hit unless abomasnow is changed in on it, and that rarely happens (focus sash!). It protects first turn to break any sashes that are already in place too. If it needs to switch after that, then so be it.

And I honestly use every move in his set, to whoever said I'd never use them all. There are plenty of games that I Protect, SR, Protect, Yawn, Roar before I even switch him out.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In NU Hippopatas will likely have Shuckle and Cradily to work with, not to mention Aggron as a usable Steel Type. Gligar and Cacturn are likely to be NU as well. There's a host of great ground types like Piloswine, Quagsire, Gastrodon . . .

 

[petrie911]

In NU Hippopatas will likely have Shuckle and Cradily to work with, not to mention Aggron as a usable Steel Type. Gligar and Cacturn are likely to be NU as well. There's a host of great ground types like Piloswine, Quagsire, Gastrodon . . .

Cradily...wow, that thing's going to be a beast in NU if Hippo ends up there. With Sandstorm support, it has about the same defensive ability as Regice, except it has a 50% recovery move and can boost its attack with swords dance.

On a different note, how much speed do you guys generally run on scarfed base 100s (Staraptor, Typhlosion, Slaking, etc)? +speed or +(sp.) attack?

 

[Angel Diva]

I never run +speed on base 100 scarfers. It weakens the power too much for me. Enough to beat modest scarf Roserade, that's all for me.

 

[Stagnant]

I've just starting trying out Jolly Staraptor. Except instead of maxing out speed I set it a few points above Base 100 Scarfd Nuetral natures and dump the rest into hp.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

So what happens next month when something falls out of the amount of usage needed to be OU? Do we wait for the next tier list, or test it right away? Theres some stradling the fence (Yanmega for one) that would be pretty cool in the new tier

 

[yokie]

So what happens next month when something falls out of the amount of usage needed to be OU? Do we wait for the next tier list, or test it right away? Theres some stradling the fence (Yanmega for one) that would be pretty cool in the new tier

I believe that the OU list is updated every 3 months or whenever a suspect is added / dropped.

 

[TUskate]

I'd like to see something dropped from OU put into BL, and at the appropriate time tested as a suspect. I don't randomly want Yanmega just to be thrown into the equation.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I think that any pokemon that drops from the OU list should immediately become UU.

-We need to acknowledge that UU is a tier dependant on the balance of OU, and we should not slow the process of testing pokemon who fail to maintain status as OU standard.

-At the same time we need to acknowledge the resulting need for swift action from this potential for imbalance, and act faster to ban obvious BLs that given by the full suspect process of OU. ie. how we insta-banned Rotom-A from old-UU.


Since we dissolved BL, right now the only thing removing pokemon from the UU metagame is OU standard status (or Uber status). Thus if Yanmega or any of the others falls from OU standard, it will immediately be, by definition UU.

Not a suspect, a full-fledged UU pokemon just as much as Claydol or Hitmontop.

The "Suspect" status only exists between OU and Ubers because Ubers is a tier based on "strength," not usage. OU keeps pokemon out of UU based on usage alone. If 4-5 pokemon from OU drop to UU, they are not "Suspects" who might "interfere with each others testing." No, they are already 4-5 new elements that are, already a part of teh UU metagame.

This is what "no BL" entails. I don't think that Empoleon, Yanmega, Rhyperior or Tyranitar deserve BL status without testing any more than Moltres or Registeel did.

 

[Erazor]

Yanmega in UU would be scary.

But yes, any poke that falls from grace in OU should become UU, and be tested just like any other suspect. That should prevent bias to an extent.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Like I said, it should not even have status as a "suspect," not any more than any other UU poke in UU or OU poke in OU is continuously being monitered anyway.

 

[Caelum]

My original plan was designed to be 3 months long (the one we are currently doing with slight modifications) specifically because the OU list is generated every 3 months.

So, you mean Snover might be sort of like Porygon 2? Porygon 2 seems to fare better in OU than UU, even though UU is supposed to be weaker. But Snover will more far more extreme?

Porygon2 is really only useful in OU because of its ability Trace. Trace allows P2 to switch into quite a few things since it can Trace: Intimidate (Gyarados, Salamence), Volt Absorb (Jolteon), Water Absorb (Vaporeon), Flash Fire (Heatran) etc etc. There just aren't any useful abilities to Trace in UU really.

On the note of Hippopotas. It's rather terrible. Starting Sandstorm is nice but Hippopotas is such a worthless Pokemon you are basically starting the game at 5-6 in favor of your opponent. It's absolutely not worth it. It would be the same case for Snover if Abomasnow ended up being banned.