yeah, lol, seriously.lol @ the foul call drawn by LeBron on Howard at the end. Cleanest block ever.
Getting real tired of these refs.
It's because Lebran is pretty much the whole team for Cleveland. I'm so happy Orlando won again, if we hadn't it would have been pretty bad news. The fact that Dwight is actually making all his free throws is great because he get's fouled so much lolol. 10 point win isn't bad.Orlando won, finally people can shut up about his shot, also it seems like Lebron always has the ball for Cleveland, he is playing a bunch of minutes.
WRONGGGGGGGGG... even experts will agree that it is not "by a longshot" and most of America is so far up Michael Jordan's ass to even realize..Originally Posted by Night Falcon
Also <3 muttonhead for shutting up RL. MJ is better than Kobe by a long shot RaikouLover don't even start this crap. Also <3 Kay lol.
Okay, so the last sentence basically kills Jerry West's argument.Originally Posted by muttonhead
I do however, would like to point out that recently even the great Jerry West (aka the man who drafted Kobe) said that he thinks LBJ has surpassed Kobe. (He added that he would like Kobe to take the last shot however).
Okay, your using statistics to prove this comparison which is horribly faulty in logic. Statistics vary by the team that a player plays for, the pace, the era, etc. A numerical analysis is hardly a reliable source for a subjective question like this. For starters, statistics predict the Lakers to beat Denver in 5 games (they said it ON the game).. and statistics also was what I used to make my NCAA March Madness bracket... while they give somewhat of a ballpark... they are horribly wrong, especially in sports. For example, Kobe Bryant in his highest scoring year averaged ~35 ppg... now he only averages 26.8 or whatever. Did he get worse at scoring? Fuck no... his team just has more offensive options.. which is why using statistics is shitty.Originally Posted by muttonhead
I would like to point anybody thinking that Kobe will surpass MJ as the greatest SG of all time to look at this:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1813
the top ten SGs of all time, you can take a look at PER, peak career stats etc.
MJ winning MVP is a product of his era having less comparable stand-outs. Kobe will never win 5 MVPs when hes competing against the likes of James and Wade, as well as the best Power Forward of all time in Duncan (yes, he is), and players such as Dirk and Nash.. Haven't you noticed the NBA refuses to give back-to-back MVPs? Could Kobe have won it the last four years? Absolutely... did he... no.. because apparently MVP now goes to the best player of the team with the best record... which is pretty much each of the last 5 years... If you think MVP is a credential for best player... look at Nash and Dirk... smh.Originally Posted by muttonhead
MJ won MVP (he ended up with 5 mvps, second to only Kareem), the all star MVP, the dunk contest mvp, the scoring title, and the fucking defensive player of the year!!!(
I don't flash it... but Kobe is an all-around better winner than LeBron because of his killer instinct.. Bottom line is.. when the game is in the 4th quarter... Kobe plays for blood, LeBron James does the right thing by getting his teammates involved and usually makes the best tactical decision. But we all (except me) grew to love MJ for his killer instinct in the 4th quarter.. and Kobe's is just as lethal as his. LeBron James doesn't have that aspect yet but he should get it in time since hes just now reaching his potential.Originally Posted by muttonhead
My point in all of this is that Kobe fans tend to flash the three rings in the LBJ/Kobe debate.
The second link I posted is a straight up comparison with MJ and Kobe from age 21 onwards (eliminating the Kobe bench years) with pace/possessions adjusted for the modern era, the 2008 season.Statistics vary by the team that a player plays for, the pace, the era, etc.
Bill Russel won 3 in a row.MJ winning MVP is a product of his era having less comparable stand-outs. Kobe will never win 5 MVPs when hes competing against the likes of James and Wade, as well as the best Power Forward of all time in Duncan (yes, he is), and players such as Dirk and Nash.. Haven't you noticed the NBA refuses to give back-to-back MVPs?
From 1982 to 2009, only the following guards won Defensive Player of the Year. Sidney Moncrief, MJ, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson and Gary Payton. (Ron Artest forward or guard?) None of them were remotely close to winning MVP/scoring title the same year. The other 19 times were won by forwards/centers. So I would definitely agree with you that it is a big man's award, and MJ also had to go against elite defensive centers like Hakeem, Robinson etc.Defensive player of the year... yeah that really counts for much. Kobe is a better defender than MJ because flat out.. that is a big mans award in todays game buddy...
whaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttttttttttttttt?MJ winning MVP is a product of his era having less comparable stand-outs.
and of course his team was a first round exit team; his team wins more when he shoots less (though jordan didn't win when he was winning scoring titles either)Scoring title... yay! Same thing... LeBron and Wade's teams demand more scoring from them, where as Kobe's does not.. you honestly think he couldn't win the scoring title if he needed to? (key word being NEEDED). Hell, he won it 3 years ago, before they landed Gasol and brought back Fisher...
that's a lie and you know it. Kobe's era like I said is not nearly as deep. And players are not much faster than they were in the 80s and 90s, conditioning has improved only slightly.Defensive player of the year... yeah that really counts for much. Kobe is a better defender than MJ because flat out.. hes guarding stronger, faster, more talented players.
do you watch laker games :/He makes the all-defensive team every year for a reason.. he locks down the other teams best SG / PG / SF.. night in and night out.
are you insanePersonally, I think you MJ dick-riders are in denile... I've seen MJ play.. I grew up watching him play.. and to be honest.. Kobe Bryant possesses comparable athleticism and size, but is more fundamentally sound at both ends of the floor.
True, false, true, and false. Jordan was the best perimeter defender in NBA history. While being the best perimeter scorer in history (which takes energy).He has the same killer instinct, a better jumpshot, unbelievable conditioning, and the same defensive presence (which I can argue is better considering that he guards the other teams best player in a league with better players, where as Jordan never did..)
He may not be the best player of all time (Maybe Wilt or KAJ), but he's the best guard of all time, and while Kobe is a comparable player, he has failed to recieve the same accolades at Jordan, and likely will never.Believe what you want... but I don't hold Michael as some unfallible god of basketball and aren't afraid to tell all you what you don't want to here.
Nope.Scary thing for you MJ fans is that Kobe has another 10 years (LeBron another 15)... so get used to him.
That holds a lot of weight. It's called Image suicide.Originally Posted by NightFalcon
And as it is, Kobe himself doesn't even consider himself the best.....
As I said before... none of which have have won in the last 5-10+ years. That is an award Kobe will never win playin in the league with the likes of Howard, Garnett and Duncan, etc.Originally Posted by muttonhead
From 1982 to 2009, only the following guards won Defensive Player of the Year. Sidney Moncrief, MJ, Michael Cooper, Alvin Robertson and Gary Payton. (Ron Artest forward or guard?)
Another bullshit statistic. As a basketball player you know that blocks and steals do not equal being a standout defender... that is more of a product of help defense. As for PER, anyone who watched the Bulls know that MJ NEVER guarded the other teams best SG / SF... It was always Scottie Pippen.. so naturally MJ would have a good PER statistic... check your shit. Scottie did the defensive dirty work, not MJ.Originally Posted by muttonhead
Also, MJ averaged more far more steals, blocks, and defensive ratings such as opponent PER or def +/- than Kobe.
Your point is? Your citing hall of fame names as a way to prove your point. However, your delusional if you think LeBron, Wade, Melo, Duncan, Shaq, Nash, Dirk, Yao, Parker, etc. all the leagues greats aren't Hall of Fame material when they retire... come on man...Originally Posted by muttonhead
About MVPs and eras, MJ had to compete with the award with Magic/Bird, Dr J/Kareem/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing/Robinson, Payton/Drexler/Dominique/Barkley/Bernard King/Isiah and the Bad Boys/ and the guy who was seen as the best PF ever before Timmy D came along, Karl Malone.I would agree with you that the MVP voting process doesn't necessarily dictate the best player winning it.
This is kind of a "meh" point. Jordan didn't go on his winning tear til he was Kobe's age now. Even still, he played in college so I don't know where all that "wear and tear is." In reality when you look at the difference between college and the NBA (roughly 50 games per year), Kobe really has only clocked 200 more games than Michael.. I don't think someone who's off-season workout routines as meticulous as Kobe's will cause him to "wear and tear" as soon as you think... You won't see any decline in his game for at least 4-5 years... maybe longer :(.Originally Posted by muttonhead
He's got a lot of mileage on those legs. Having said all that, Kobe's an exceptional talent, and we should appreciate his play before he starts to fall off his prime.
Thank you for reiterating my point.Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
and of course his team was a first round exit team; his team wins more when he shoots less (though jordan didn't win when he was winning scoring titles either)
Not nearly as deep? Bullshit. You can only name less than ten "big names" from Jordan's Era as great... where as I can rattle off 20 names from the NBA now that will surely be hall-of-famers.Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
that's a lie and you know it. Kobe's era like I said is not nearly as deep. And players are not much faster than they were in the 80s and 90s, conditioning has improved only slightly.
I sure as hell do. Who did Kobe guard? Chauncey Billups and Carmelo Anthony when Ariza was getting destroyed. Please tell me they aren't the best on the Nuggets. Thank you. How about last series? Artest? Yuppers. Every team they play... Kobe is taking the other teams best of PG / SG / SF. For comparison... Jordan never did, and LeBron is guarding Rafer Alston, which is probably why Cleveland is sucking it up right now.Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
do you watch laker games :/
Irrelevant.Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
are you insane
have you watched michael jordan play
michael jordan reinvented his game multiple times
he was a slasher, who later became a great shooter, who later developed an unstoppable fadeaway from the post
Kobe has a better jump shoot than MJ... its a given.. you just said that in your last sentence. Best perimeter in NBA history... bullshit. If he was, he would have been assigned to guard the best player on the other team... defense wins games. Plus, look who Jordan was guarding... I'd like to see him on the Carmelo Anthony's. Well guess what, Iverson gave him a taste of what the "new" era is like when he flat out undressed Michael. Best perimeter scorer in history your claiming is based on statistics. The fact is... I don't kno how he can be the best when Kobe has a better jump shot, shoots better free throws, and has comparable athleticism and ball handling skills (experts say Kobe handles better actually), not to mention hes playing against more physically imposing defenders in the whole (its clear that getting to the rack is much harder in todays era evidenced by the less points and possessions).Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
True, false, true, and false. Jordan was the best perimeter defender in NBA history. While being the best perimeter scorer in history (which takes energy).
The only real edge Kobe has on Jordan is that he's a way more prolific 3-point shooter.
Yes, he will never receive 5 MVPs and defensive scoring titles, but that hardly means hes not the best player... it just means he has more competition. The Western Conference has produced NINE of the last ELEVEN MVPs... (and its a given that Dirk, Duncan, and Nash are all future hall-of-famers) that is who Kobe is playing against. Kobe will never be as successful as Michael Jordan... but success and awards doesn't always define a player's ability.Originally Posted by Ancient Regime
He may not be the best player of all time (Maybe Wilt or KAJ), but he's the best guard of all time, and while Kobe is a comparable player, he has failed to recieve the same accolades at Jordan, and likely will never.
Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Bird, Magic, Wilkins, Worthy, McHale, Shaq, Payton, Parish, Miller, Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Kemp, Webber, Mourning, Mutombo, Hardaway pre-injury,Not nearly as deep? Bullshit. You can only name less than ten "big names" from Jordan's Era as great... where as I can rattle off 20 names from the NBA now that will surely be hall-of-famers.
He did...last series. However, Kobe has been in the league for 12 years. He never took the best opposing player on the court every night. Jordan did.I sure as hell do. Who did Kobe guard? Chauncey Billups and Carmelo Anthony when Ariza was getting destroyed.
Please tell me they aren't the best on the Nuggets. Thank you. How about last series?
Artest? Yuppers. Every team they play... Kobe is taking the other teams best of PG / SG / SF.
No he was a more prolific 3-point shooter, something Michael Jordan didn't have in his game. That does not make Kobe a better jump-shooter. Kobe is about equal to Jordan as a mid-range shooter, and far behind Jordan as a post player.Kobe has a better jump shoot than MJ...
Jordan did guard the best opposing perimeter player, that statement is simply false. And he hardly actually had to, seeing he had Pippen next to him.ts a given.. you just said that in your last sentence. Best perimeter in NBA history... bullshit.
How old was Jordan then? 36? 37? Is Kobe going to be a lockdown defender at 37?Well guess what, Iverson gave him a taste of what the "new" era is like when he flat out undressed Michael
Both around 84%. Look it up., shoots better free throws
Actually points pace is about the same during the Jordan years as the last 3 years. However, you conveniently forget years like Kobe's 2nd three peat year, where the NBA scoring average was 95 ppg, compared to near 100 in the Jordan prime years.(its clear that getting to the rack is much harder in todays era evidenced by the less points and possessions).
EDIT: Ya know I shouldn't make any promises on making threads because of how lazy I've been :-(Also, if you even attempt to argue that evolution has affected athletes then you know nothing about either sports or athletes.
Kinda the same way Eddie House does, but I see where your coming from.Anyone ever notice JR Smith celebrates after EVERY point he gets...? you almost would think he's never scored before.... Its funny because on an unrated broadcast such as basketball you can clearly read the obscenities hes saying and its funny when the refs T him up for it... lol
Yes. Like when he yelled "mother******" and they kept replaying that in slow motion on Sportscenter. lolAnyone ever notice JR Smith celebrates after EVERY point he gets...? you almost would think he's never scored before.... Its funny because on an unrated broadcast such as basketball you can clearly read the obscenities hes saying and its funny when the refs T him up for it... lol