Are unorthodox items viable?

[twash]

People commonly talk about how certain Pokemon are forgotten, but generally there is barely ever talk of items. Items are a hugely important part of the game, as everybody knows. I don't know about other players, but I love experimenting with unorthadox items which still work, especially on offensive teams where the use of an odd item means a Pokemon can act as a lure with more ease. Many people seem to use Leftovers or Life Orb just because they feel there are no decent alternatives out there, but I disagree!

Let's start by taking a simple example of a typical sweeper with a slight twist.

Lucario @ Shuca Berry
Nature: Adamant
~ Swords Dance
~ Close Combat
~ Extremespeed
~ Ice Punch

As you can see, I have changed the standard Life Orb to Shuca Berry, also swapping to Ice Punch in the last slot. Suddenly, Lucario becomes an excellent offensive lure, taking out many common Pokemon which would cause it huge trouble.

Lucario vs 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippowdon

Lucario's +2 Ice Punch - 48.57% - 57.62%
Lucario's +2 Close Combat - 58.57% - 68.81%
Hippowdon's Earthquake - 56.74% - 67.02%

Lucario can Swords Dance as Hippowdon comes in, and then hit it with an Ice Punch. Hippowdon can Earthquake, but it will fail to OHKO Lucario courtesy of Shuca Berry. Lucario can then finish Hippowdon off with a stronger Close Combat (avoiding the Defense drop turn one). Hippowdon will faint, leaving one of the bulkiest physical Pokemon out of play during the match.

Lucario vs 252 HP / 40 Def Jolly Gliscor

Lucario's +2 Ice Punch - 143.50% - 169.49%
Gliscor's Earthquake - 48.94% - 57.80%

Gliscor is commonly known as one of the best SDLuke counters. However, because of the simple item change Gliscor's Earthquake will not OHKO, while Lucario's +2 Ice Punch suddenly OHKOes Gliscor, and it's only worry is the possible miss due to Sand Veil.

Other uses of Shuca Berry include playing against Flygon, and some Salamence (tend not to risk Fire Blast if they are carrying EQ). 4 HP / 0 Def Gyarados is 2HKOed by a +1 Extremespeed after Stealth Rock damage, and has a 46% chance to OHKO with a Life Orb Waterfall after Stealth Rock damage on Lucario. Heatran want to play safe and use Earth Power instead of Fire Blast? Works fine for Lucario.

So it makes me wonder if players are thinking about the team or the singular Pokemon in question when making the team. LO SDLuke is certainly better as a simple, straight up sweeper, but maybe people should consider odd items such as Shuca Berry, especially when you consider its teammates. Lucario can take out Hippowdon or Gliscor to make a DD Babiri Tyranitar sweep that much easier - just by changing Life Orb to Shuca Berry. I understand Shuca Berry Lucario is a bit of a gimmicky surprise; but if it conveniently lures in and defeats specific Pokemon, and therefore having a positive effect on the team's strategy as a whole, who cares provided that it works well and relatively consistently?

It isn't just type resisting Berries that can work, though. Chesto Berry is an interesting option if you want to run Rest, especially on Pokemon like CurseLax that may like to utilize a quicker Rest to help against certain things that a 3-turn Rest makes playing against awkward. Lum Berry is also interesting in Ubers on various Pokemon because Darkrai almost always carry Dark Void. Lum Berry also helps against random freezes/burns/etc.

Moves with x1.2 boosts are also pretty cool. I've seen a few people running Iron Plate on bulky SD Scizor now, and it really does make sense. Bulky Scizor hates the recoil from Life Orb, yet can survive without Leftovers. Expert Belt is a poor choice because Bullet Punch only hits two types super effectively, and SuperPower is mostly handy against the likes of Skarmory and a few Pokemon you want to catch on the switch for heavy damage (Heatran, Magnezone). Even though the loss of Expert Belt makes life slightly harder against Heatran / Magnezone, the boost comes in handy against various random threats as Bullet Punch becomes even more reliable as a STAB priority move. It really is a good medium.

It's not just about power though: you can quite easily do the reverse. Let's take the standard "New MixMence" and swap Life Orb for Leftovers. It can still OHKO Skarmory and Scizor with Fire Blast, and Outrage still 2HKOes 0 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey with SR + Leftovers calculated in. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar gets 2HKOed by Earthquake after Stealth Rock damage (and Outrage most of the time), only this time Salamence isn't losing 16.25% of its HP per turn. Of course there are obvious downsides - prediction is harder as suddenly you can't 2HKO the same stuff if you make a wrong prediction. But maybe it is worth it in a world full of Stealth Rock and priority moves such as Bullet Punch Scizor, especially when you consider the switches Salamence forces?

In short, I would like the point out that many Pokemon sets don't have to stick to a single item to make them work - try out various things and see if they work for you. More importantly, if you have any experiences with unorthadox, please post them!

 

[Scholst]

Yeah, I think unusual Items are incredibly useful. Like I used to run Rindo Berry on my Swampy Lead, and I found it really fun, watching Grass Knot after Grass Knot fail to KO ^^.
However, I think that, as with gimicky sets, after one use, the surprise is ruined, and then a smart opponent can find ways to use it to their advantage;such as the decrease in power compared to LO on your Luke example, and the lack of lefties recovery on my Swampy.

 

[Stagnant]

Uncommon Items:

Lum Berry
Resist Berry
Plate (Fire, Iron, ect,)
Power Herb
Pinch Berrys

Lum Berry is uncommon nowadays. I don't think they have a place on a sweepers (NP, SD) because added power from LO or even Lefties (Cm MisMag) is more benificial than status protection. Walls will always prefer Lefties as will BulkyAttackers.

Resist Berry is good if a particular metagame is heavily based around a common pokemon. A good example of this was in UU back when Shaymin was still UU and ever-so-popular. I used to run a Mirror Coat Blastoise. Naturally the first switch-in to Blastoise was a Ghost or Shaymin. If Shaymin switched in then naturally Seed Flare was coming... which got Mirror Coated and knocked Shaymin into oblivion.

Best use for a Plate was on my Belly Drum Magmar. LO would of killed him and Lefties didn't accomplish anything. Magmar has base 93 Speed so he didn't really need Salac Berry.

Unfortunatly, POwer Herb hasnt been implemented on Shoddy... but I would certianly love to use this item. Allowing a Pokemon to fire off a quick SolarBeam, Skull Bash, ...Razor Wind, or Sky Attack could turn some Poke's counters.. into not counters.

I don't like pinch berry's. In OU, there is Sandstorm and BulletPunch/ X-Speed. UU, good luck finding a team without priority.

 

[anubite]

Perhaps it's obvious, but on weaker pokemon that swords dance / nasty plot, I'll always run a salac berry over some leftovers/focus sash or something, simply because you can boost 2 stats in 1 turn if you get lucky and sweep. Berries are also great with baton passers.

Sort of makes me wish items like Power Herb were on shoddy.

Expert Belt is actually pretty good, surprised I never used it until a few days ago.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

A set I used not so long ago had Swampert carry a Rindo Berry. Silly, isn't it?

Well, not really. Here is a calcs with neutral 252 SpA LO GK from Infernape against 252/0 Swampert:

307 Atk vs 306 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 150 - 178 (37.13% - 44.06%)

In short, Swampert takes below 50% from a very threatening attack and KO's back with EQ. This can go well as a lead against other Pokemon with un-STAB'd GK just for Swampert.

@ Rindo Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The important thing to remember about most unorthodox items, like Focus Sash, resist berries, Lum Berry etc, is that the vast majority of the time they only end up useful if the opponent reacts to that Pokemon the way you want them to. For this reason they are much less reliable than items like Leftovers and Life Orb that will always pay dividends regardless of what your opponent is doing, and often rely on surprise factor to work well.

One key exception to this is in the very early game / lead situation, where you will often be looking to set up a certain element or strategy to achieve early-game momentum, and the range situations are more predictable and less varied. If your aim is to get Stealth Rock down as reliably as possible, you will look to use your item slot to help your cause as best as possible. So if your Pokemon is fast but frail (Aero / Azelf etc) your biggest fear is something faster (perhaps a random Scarfer) OHKOing you before you can move, therefore Focus Sash is ideal for surviving at least one attack no matter what. If your SR lead is bulky and strong but slow (e.g. Metagross), you are less at risk of being OHKO'd, but fear faster sleep moves or Taunt much more. No item helps with Taunt, but Lum Berry is a much more attractive option to avoid sleep for one turn in order to guarantee your main objective.

In the main game however, the range of possible scenarios is much MUCH larger, and running a specific item that is dependent on your opponent's move, or have very limited use, is therefore much riskier, so in the long run they pay off less compared to the old reliables like Leftovers (defensive) and Life Orb (offensive).

EDIT: Of course if the Pokemon is especially potent, the early-game / lead situation can sometimes apply late-game too. Garchomp is a perfect example, as Yache Berry protects itself against what is (or at least what used to be) the only (somewhat) reliable way of stopping it from guaranteeing a kill once it got a Swords Dance in.

 

[Thund91]

I think unusual items are usually better left for lures, kinda like your Lucario example. An UU example would be something like Passho(sp?) Berry Steelix who lures in Milotic, survives the Surf, then explodes. This can open the way for Blaziken or Azumarill or whatever to sweep. It really does depend on how it helps your team.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

EDIT: Of course if the Pokemon is especially potent, the early-game / lead situation can sometimes apply late-game too. Garchomp is a perfect example, as Yache Berry protects itself against what is (or at least what used to be) the only (somewhat) reliable way of stopping it from guaranteeing a kill once it got a Swords Dance in.

That remids me of how much Haban Berry Garchomp is viable in Ubers. It can get surprise KO's against Lait@s, Scarfed Palkia, other Garchomp, Dialga and others. It can set up SD as a Scarfed Palkia switches in and KO even after the Spacial Rend coming your way.

I think unusual items are usually better left for lures, kinda like your Lucario example. An UU example would be something like Passho(sp?) Berry Steelix who lures in Milotic, survives the Surf, then explodes. This can open the way for Blaziken or Azumarill or whatever to sweep. It really does depend on how it helps your team.

That example is a bit too situational. And besides, how does that help you that much? Steelix has better uses than that such as walling Normal-types and friends, not explode just like that.

 

[mtr]

Infernape (M) @ Fist Plate
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 66 HP/252 Atk/192 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
---

Fist Plate Physical SDApe is pretty underrated. You still get the crucial KOes you need without the horrific recoil from Life Orb and Flare Blitz, which means that you can attack more than 6 times in a sandstorm. Such a plate would also work on pure Special NPApe.

 

[Tarquin]

I often use Lum Berrys on my sweepers that are most targeted by Will o Wisps and Thunderwaves, giving me extra set up. However, I would only run these sweepers on a team that struggles with taking these status or countering the pokemon that run them.

I have never been a huge fan of running resistance berries though, like in your example, unless they are for a very specific lure. I think if you were appointed your lucario as a main gliscor and hippowdon counter, using it;s surprise to net the kills, then thats great. However, just throwing one into the team because it catches people out seems too situational, a sweeper will work best as a pure sweeper using its recommend items, if your sweeper has a dual function, other items are a great way to achieve that.

 

[RegalStar]

I run a Scizor with a plate and Heatran with Shuca. Both of them do are pretty good at faking to be their more popular choiced sets respectively.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's a really neat set OP.

I can't come up with a set at the moment but I'll use yours and report my results.

 

[Taylor]

Excellent subject.

I am very keen on items, movesets and the like of which offer something "different", but ultimately aim to achieve one goal: victory. It only takes one turn for that innovative imagination of yours to put yourself at an advantage, and more often than not I include some sort of creative element in my teams to give me that edge.

I actually ran Yache Berry Salamence with the standard "MixedMence" moveset. You limit your damage output by a small margin, but you're rewarded with an unexpected suprise that may well come in handy. At a time when YacheChomp was rampant, I was one of the minority to utilize Haban Berry instead; reasons are self-explanitory. It was the difference in an Antiquity tournament match, where husk Dragon Danced with his Salamence and failed to OHKO my Garchomp with Dragon Claw (pre-Platinum, may I add).

So many possibilities out there!

 

[Thund91]

That remids me of how much Haban Berry Garchomp is viable in Ubers. It can get surprise KO's against Lait@s, Scarfed Palkia, other Garchomp, Dialga and others. It can set up SD as a Scarfed Palkia switches in and KO even after the Spacial Rend coming your way.

That example is a bit too situational. And besides, how does that help you that much? Steelix has better uses than that such as walling Normal-types and friends, not explode just like that.

Apparently it's enough to earn a spot in the analysis. The 2nd spot actually.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/steelix

 

[Kevin Garrett]

I think unorthodox items should be used sparsely on teams that need an extra something to function better. Most of the time they involve leads. Lum Berry is popular right now with all the Smeargle and Roserade around. I remember when Swampert leads were big, TAY ran Passho Berry on his Claydol.

 

[YTP]

Yeah I think items are also good for checking threats. For example, a common problem for defensive teams are MixMence and SD Luke. A major cause in the rise of scarftar. I'm also starting to experiment more with choice bluff items such as iron plate scizor and expert belt blufftar :)

 

[Bynine]

I use a White Herb on my Overheat Moltres. Since it's so frail and usually only has one chance to be put on the field, it helps enormously.

 

[chenman333]

Leads are definitely the most dynamic pokemon in terms of new sets and items. Everyone wants their lead to beat other leads, so everyone is always changing EVs and items to get an advantage, then everyone else eventually catches up.

I don't really feel that unorthodox items are very viable unless you have a damn good reason to use them, and in most cases (like berries), you need to make sure that your opponent is going to do what you expect the majority of the time (Babiri DD Tyranitar is probably the best example). It is usually fine for leads however, since you are only facing a limited set of pokemon.

 

[Deschain]

i think that Lum berries are grossly underrated (in wi-fi anyway). of course, you have to use them on the right pokemon, something that threatens enough to need immediate attention, but is bulky enough to survive a lot of attacks.

the main one i use (to great success) is Lum DDtar, where the attempted status allows me a free set-up, after which i'm more often than not faster than the opponent and able to deal a ton of damage.

another unorthodox item i use is Passhos berry on Rhyperior, since water attacks are everywhere in OU. the beauty of this is his ability to easily come in on a weak or resisted hit and immediately threaten. they switch out to their water counter as i double my attack, and then instead of them getting the easy kill they're expecting, Rhyp survives and deals massive damage. if that was their only counter...they're going to be hurting. this works especially well with SS support for obvious reasons.

Wide Lens used on something like Heracross or Jumpluff is very helpful to raise the margin of success for crucial moves. this is also very helpful on the LeadTran set, where you're relying heavily on WoW or Fireblast/Magma Storm.

other oft forgotten but surprisingly useful items are Muscle Band and Wise Glasses, allowing you to pack a bit of extra power, while faking a choice item. of course, the plates can be used for even more power if you want your main attack hitting harder.

i think that's all the "unorthodox" items i make use of on a regular basis.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Basicly, adding to my earlier comments, items are most effective when they use the element of surprise. In todays metagame, items make a huge impact and can practicly tell you the entire moveset of a Pokemon, or so it seems. Since there are few dominant items (Choice items, Leftovers, LO), other items that have some of the same effects (such as Choice items and berries not touching the HP of the Pokemon) make it easy to bluff an entire set. This can make holes in the opposition and win you the match.

 

[petrie911]

Earth Plate Dugtrio has worked for me in UU. People tend to assume CB and take the opportunity to try to set up on Choiced EQ.

I could see Power Herb Solarbeam having applications. Would make a good lure for bulky waters.

 

[Objection]

Basicly, adding to my earlier comments, items are most effective when they use the element of surprise. In todays metagame, items make a huge impact and can practicly tell you the entire moveset of a Pokemon, or so it seems. Since there are few dominant items (Choice items, Leftovers, LO), other items that have some of the same effects (such as Choice items and berries not touching the HP of the Pokemon) make it easy to bluff an entire set. This can make holes in the opposition and win you the match.

I feel that it is this kind of bluff that makes Hyper Offence teams much less of a 'win button'.

I think the last unorthodox set I ran was a Rapid Spin Starmie that needed survivability (so no Life Orb) but also needed to be able to handle the Rotom forms, so I ran Wide Lens and Hydro Pump to catch the spin blocker on the switch.

 

[Deschain]

Earth Plate Dugtrio has worked for me in UU. People tend to assume CB and take the opportunity to try to set up on Choiced EQ.

hmm i like the idea of that, but Duggy misses out on so many KOs wit hthe drop from CB to LO already. =/

worth trying though, it would still 2HKO all the same things, and you could spring a nasty trap on their counter.

 

[Quaily]

One thing I had thought of in ubers was a vaporeon like this:

calm 252 hp/252 spd @ wacan berry
toxic
surf
protect
wish

the idea was to switch into kyogre and absorb the water attacks, and be able to get a toxic off with the berry. You could tack some damage on with protect then switch out. In the more water focused ubers you can heal more with water absorb.

Now that quagsire has recover this is probably more of a novelty.

 

[twash]

@ Rindo Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 Spd
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

That's an interesting (albeit slightly typical) set. My issue with it is that it doesn't really achieve anything besides beating Infernape (actually it needs SDef EVs not Def EVs to achieve survivability versus +2 LO Grass Knot). I would use it if it could beat Celebi, but arguably the latter still comes out on top. Still, a decent alternative to Leftovers imo.

I think unusual items are usually better left for lures, kinda like your Lucario example. An UU example would be something like Passho(sp?) Berry Steelix who lures in Milotic, survives the Surf, then explodes. This can open the way for Blaziken or Azumarill or whatever to sweep. It really does depend on how it helps your team.

I remember using that Steelix set in LR + Imran's team, it was really useful at luring bulky Water-types and Exploding on them. I agree - the team needs to take advantage of the opposing loss.

Excellent subject.

I am very keen on items, movesets and the like of which offer something "different", but ultimately aim to achieve one goal: victory. It only takes one turn for that innovative imagination of yours to put yourself at an advantage, and more often than not I include some sort of creative element in my teams to give me that edge.

I actually ran Yache Berry Salamence with the standard "MixedMence" moveset. You limit your damage output by a small margin, but you're rewarded with an unexpected suprise that may well come in handy. At a time when YacheChomp was rampant, I was one of the minority to utilize Haban Berry instead; reasons are self-explanitory. It was the difference in an Antiquity tournament match, where husk Dragon Danced with his Salamence and failed to OHKO my Garchomp with Dragon Claw (pre-Platinum, may I add).

So many possibilities out there!

Yache Berry MixMence is a pretty nice idea...especially if facing the likes of Starmie. It sounds good because it provides defensiveness of a different kind to Leftovers, while also having no recoil but keeping strong. It looks like one of those Pokemon that can instantly turn a losing match into a winning match because it has a Yache Berry which the opponent may not expect. I'll be sure to try it out!

As for Garchomp, Haban is pretty useful in Ubers because of Lati@s, Rayquaza, Garchomp etc. It's amazing how much an item can change the play in a match because you don't have to be as worried about certain threats.

Yeah I think items are also good for checking threats. For example, a common problem for defensive teams are MixMence and SD Luke. A major cause in the rise of scarftar. I'm also starting to experiment more with choice bluff items such as iron plate scizor and expert belt blufftar :)

I agree. I ran Shuca Berry Metagross for a while with Ice Punch + ThunderPunch, it was pretty useful against Salamence & Gyarados, whilst being able to feign a ton of items and therefore get surprise kills.

Earth Plate Dugtrio has worked for me in UU. People tend to assume CB and take the opportunity to try to set up on Choiced EQ.

I might try that out one day...it will certainly lose some KOes, but played right it could arguably do more damage by feigning CB.

Thanks for all the replies so far, it really is pretty intriguing!