Haha i was in college with a broken laptop, so i couldnt participate. But i got it fixed and here i am. Plus i feel much stronger about mence then i do about latias because i have more trouble facing it. And IMO latias is a borderline case so i just let others handle it.
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Salamence Theorymonning
- Thread starter SJCrew
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Sorry Philip, just started playing again a few months ago...
I think the multiple bannings and testing goes back to the problem we had at the beginning of D/P: There are way too many threats in the metagame to reliably counter them all. You bring in your Cresselia to stop every Salamence, go for the Ice Beam and end up getting Pursuited by Weavile/Scizor/Tar, making you a not so good counter anymore. Salamence eventually gets back out and proceeds to sweep. This is the sad truth of the Metagame and at this point it is unavoidable.
I remember early in the Metagame I was taught that D/P was about making your own plan and following through with it. I have used a LOLati team to great success because of instead of centralizing on what to stop I've been centralizing on what they(the opponent) have to stop. The best players make the opponents do what they want instead of what the opponent wants.
Try a team with a strong Choice Bander, let's say a Staraptor followed by a DDSalamence. An inexperienced opponent will let there wall be weakened until they see Staraptor is KOed, then lategame see your Salamence Dragon Dance and practically, if not literally, quit. Control the Metagame, not the other way around.
I have never really hated mence so much (1k cre here.) ive used
Suicune with ice beam to great sucess in taking on both salemence and the NP mixapes.
a useful calc
252/252+ cune vs 236 LO outrage 41.8% - 49.3%
vs 252 42.6% - 50.5%
another useful one
101.5% - 119.6% damage back with ice beam.
I hope thats ok enough for people to use defensive cune with ice beam. (note it checks threats and does NOT sweep. Pretty useful for full stall but offense may require somthing a bit more agressive.)
to a great extent suicune is amazing in stoping mence.
Suicune with ice beam to great sucess in taking on both salemence and the NP mixapes.
a useful calc
252/252+ cune vs 236 LO outrage 41.8% - 49.3%
vs 252 42.6% - 50.5%
another useful one
101.5% - 119.6% damage back with ice beam.
I hope thats ok enough for people to use defensive cune with ice beam. (note it checks threats and does NOT sweep. Pretty useful for full stall but offense may require somthing a bit more agressive.)
to a great extent suicune is amazing in stoping mence.
The issue here is NOT (believe it or not) whether Mence should be tested. I have no problem with a fair test to see if it's broken or not in the OU metagame. The problem comes with implementing the results of the testing.
Now that Latias is gone, Mence has lost a potential counter so it's a greater threat than it was (and it was already pretty grizzly). My fear is that this will be reflected in the results of the test. Pokemon have variable threat levels depending on the metagame. If Mence is taken away, the metagame shifts drastically and a very powerful beast is removed. Something else will step up to the plate and there will be new sets and counter-sets for a while until the next threat too is deemed too powerful for OU.
In actuality, the power a pokemon has is relative to it's current metagame. Banning a mence is a temporary solution to a greater problem, namely: lack of standardisation across pokemon. The need for implemented tiers means that the system is already imperfect, and while the wonderful work done by smogonauts and the like to rectify this is a worthwhile endeavour, it is a treatment, not a cure.
I'm not proposing an alternative, since I don't think one exists, I'm just saying that sooner or later a line will have to be drawn. A powerful pokemon (like Mence) will emerge to dominate the metagame. Now, if it's banned that doesn't solve anything. It just buys time until the next monster comes along that people have a hard time dealing with. Rinse and repeat.
My worry is that the Ubers tier will become populated with 'Neo-Ubers'. Pokemon who have no real business in the Uber's tier but who became OU's biggest problem by means of elimination.
I say leave the threats in OU alone. Sure they're hard to deal with, but possibly not as hard as whatever will appear after you shift the metagame by banning them. For remember, when you ban a pokemon from OU, you ban a potential OU solution to the new threats that will arise.
Now that Latias is gone, Mence has lost a potential counter so it's a greater threat than it was (and it was already pretty grizzly). My fear is that this will be reflected in the results of the test. Pokemon have variable threat levels depending on the metagame. If Mence is taken away, the metagame shifts drastically and a very powerful beast is removed. Something else will step up to the plate and there will be new sets and counter-sets for a while until the next threat too is deemed too powerful for OU.
In actuality, the power a pokemon has is relative to it's current metagame. Banning a mence is a temporary solution to a greater problem, namely: lack of standardisation across pokemon. The need for implemented tiers means that the system is already imperfect, and while the wonderful work done by smogonauts and the like to rectify this is a worthwhile endeavour, it is a treatment, not a cure.
I'm not proposing an alternative, since I don't think one exists, I'm just saying that sooner or later a line will have to be drawn. A powerful pokemon (like Mence) will emerge to dominate the metagame. Now, if it's banned that doesn't solve anything. It just buys time until the next monster comes along that people have a hard time dealing with. Rinse and repeat.
My worry is that the Ubers tier will become populated with 'Neo-Ubers'. Pokemon who have no real business in the Uber's tier but who became OU's biggest problem by means of elimination.
I say leave the threats in OU alone. Sure they're hard to deal with, but possibly not as hard as whatever will appear after you shift the metagame by banning them. For remember, when you ban a pokemon from OU, you ban a potential OU solution to the new threats that will arise.
Hmm the only Latias set I found 'devastating' was the choice specs set.
I don't think mence should be voted Ubers.
If you have used Salamence,you would know that he is worn down VERY quickly.That gives him less time to cause destruction and easier to revenge kill.
Scizor is a pretty safe switch-in DEPENDING and what you sare switching out from.For eg. If you have your Empoleon against Mence,Mence can choose either to fry the peguin or EQ it so it would not be smart to switch from a steel to another steel when going up against Mence.Let's face it,nobody ever just Fire blasts out of the blue,so Scizor is most times a good switch in once it is weakend.
But I do have to agree that most Pokemon cannot switch into him but 'meh'.I just don't think Mence is that good.
If Mence is gone,what are we going to use against stall teams?
I SAY SALAMENCE SHOULD STAY OU.
I don't think mence should be voted Ubers.
If you have used Salamence,you would know that he is worn down VERY quickly.That gives him less time to cause destruction and easier to revenge kill.
Scizor is a pretty safe switch-in DEPENDING and what you sare switching out from.For eg. If you have your Empoleon against Mence,Mence can choose either to fry the peguin or EQ it so it would not be smart to switch from a steel to another steel when going up against Mence.Let's face it,nobody ever just Fire blasts out of the blue,so Scizor is most times a good switch in once it is weakend.
But I do have to agree that most Pokemon cannot switch into him but 'meh'.I just don't think Mence is that good.
If Mence is gone,what are we going to use against stall teams?
I SAY SALAMENCE SHOULD STAY OU.
Salamence has roost in case you forgot. He also has room to use it and only needs 1 turn to kill one of your pokes. The residual arguement doesnt work for ho-oh and it doesnt work here either.
Scizor is magnezone bait, and cant kill a salamence after sr and 1 lo recoil.
Doesnt matter. But since you asked, dragonite, infernape, lucario, etc.
Im tempted to say you are wrong, but i cant say for certian without a test. At first glance the only threat that will rise with mence's removal will be lucario. Either way we will deal with it then so this is not a valid arguement.
Boo hoo
We shall see after it gets banned (if it does)
I'm glad latias is gone. w00t for that bitch stopping spamming the ladder.
Salamence, on the other hand, is another round. While it is a little overpowered it can be beaten if you are prepared for it.
Dragon dance set is easily beaten if you have a steel type and you force it to outrage (I use one, and this is the most common way to get rid of it). Almost every set is counter able. Hard, probably, but it's not impossible. You just need to be prepared for it (weavile works).
Salamence should stay where it is.
Salamence, on the other hand, is another round. While it is a little overpowered it can be beaten if you are prepared for it.
Dragon dance set is easily beaten if you have a steel type and you force it to outrage (I use one, and this is the most common way to get rid of it). Almost every set is counter able. Hard, probably, but it's not impossible. You just need to be prepared for it (weavile works).
Salamence should stay where it is.
The whole Salamence- has - roost argument is preposterous.
How many people on here have actually faced one that actually uses Roost? And if they do have it then one of their moveslots is taken up. Bulky Mence is often novelty rather than the "Overpowered beast" everyone on this thread is talking about.
In my opinion, Roost shouldn't be used as an example of why Salamence is better than something else.
How many people on here have actually faced one that actually uses Roost? And if they do have it then one of their moveslots is taken up. Bulky Mence is often novelty rather than the "Overpowered beast" everyone on this thread is talking about.
In my opinion, Roost shouldn't be used as an example of why Salamence is better than something else.
Arceus is banned from Shoddy Uber play because the only cartridge Arceus to date have been at level 100 and thus have a non-standard EV limits (multiples of ten up to 100 per stat). Shoddy cannot implement this, so someone (who?) decided it should be banned.
Personally I think it ought to be allowed. It may mean playing with something not currently possible on the cartridges, but it's clear Game Freak intended it to be possible, thanks to Azure Flute Arceus being at level 80.
And stop saying Scizor deals with Mence. Scizor only draws at best - the Bullet Punch doesn't outright KO Mence (after SR and Mence having taken LO recoil once) and it then Fire Blasts, or even Outrages, Scizor; in doing so Salamence MAY die from LO recoil.
No, it shouldn't be called preposterous. It drastically increases Salamence's ability to fight, especially if it's bulky. Bulky Mence with flamethrower easily destroys its "check" Scizor. Any move goes, here.
Damn those 30 OU teams I that I finally finished a few hours ago are now useless.
With Latias gone I lost my best check for Salamence. DD mence will become very difficult to beat and stuff like starmie or Gengar may get scarfed t odeal with ths. I think that the way that the metagame has developed that Mence is uber now. He takes out too many threats and a main check to Salamence (Scizor) can be trapped my Maggy. Oh and I think that scarf Tar will still have high usage due to most things outspeeding mence being weak to Pursuit.
With Latias gone I lost my best check for Salamence. DD mence will become very difficult to beat and stuff like starmie or Gengar may get scarfed t odeal with ths. I think that the way that the metagame has developed that Mence is uber now. He takes out too many threats and a main check to Salamence (Scizor) can be trapped my Maggy. Oh and I think that scarf Tar will still have high usage due to most things outspeeding mence being weak to Pursuit.
If Mence is running roost,doesn't that means he is missing either Fire blast or EQ ?Won't that make him easier to take down?
A moveset of:
Dragon Dance
Roost
Earthquake
Dragon Claw/ Outrage
is perfectly viable and hits everything except skarmory and bronzong (cue magnezone) atleast neutral
No clasic mixmence (more effective mix set IMO) only really needs 3 moves (draco meteor, brick break, fire blast). You can 2hko EVERYTHING in ou with just those 3 moves. And everything that resists dragon is hit supereffectively by fire and fighting.
Ok, so since we're talking about movesets now, a Salamence with Roost is far less common than a Scizor with Roost, so wouldn't this be complete set up bait for a Scizor? EQ hits it for normal Damage, and Scizor can SD and Roost while it's taking these hits.
Besides, why would someone waste their time Roosting on Salamence? This takes away their sweeping time, and let's face it - can Salamence really even afford to take up a turn to Roost in this fast paced metagame? Its defenses are nothing more than maybe above average, so it's not a wall, and can't take hits all day. And this would open it up to attacks, and waste a turn of sweeping potential. So more often than not, no.
Then it's just better to use Dragonite, who takes hits a lot better to keep DDing the hell out.
So, do not use Roost on Salamence. Just use Fire Blast or whatever.
On a different note, I would like to raise some questions as to how this test is being carried out.
For a start, why is there to be a new suspect ladder without Salamence? This raises two primary concerns to me. For one, I cannot see why a metagame without Salamence has relevance to Salamence's tiering. It might raise bias as to people prefering a certain metagame to another, but what does it prove? Salamence's effect on the metagame is visible in Standard, a tier without the suspect seems pointless.
Secondly, on a practical note, how will this ladder be promoted? Suspect ladders have infamously been very quiet, and in this case we have one with nothing 'new' on the table and a far less chance of the common player being able to do something with their experience from the ladder anyway (I'd rather take my chances at getting a high enough rating than aiming to be one of the nine most competent players in the whole of Smogon). From a purely selfish point of view (one I don't have, but this question might be asked) 'why should I bother?'
Also, is there a reason why applications aren't taking place now? Four weeks is hardly enough time to make a person qualified for the council who wouldn't have been before. Ofcourse there is the issue of a person being placed on the council and then that person being undecided when the time comes, but I don't see this as being too much of an issue. I see a problem in that choosing people later would attract people with 'I want Salamence OU/Uber' opinions as opposed to 'I beleive I can make a difference to the community. I have a few weeks to draw a conclusion' members. Ofcourse I am in no doubt of Aeolus' and Jumpan's selection skills in removing these biased applicants, but it opens the door to a risk I don't think we need if we are to be as objective as possible.
I hope someone can answer me here. If I've missed something blatantly obvious, sorry.
For a start, why is there to be a new suspect ladder without Salamence? This raises two primary concerns to me. For one, I cannot see why a metagame without Salamence has relevance to Salamence's tiering. It might raise bias as to people prefering a certain metagame to another, but what does it prove? Salamence's effect on the metagame is visible in Standard, a tier without the suspect seems pointless.
Secondly, on a practical note, how will this ladder be promoted? Suspect ladders have infamously been very quiet, and in this case we have one with nothing 'new' on the table and a far less chance of the common player being able to do something with their experience from the ladder anyway (I'd rather take my chances at getting a high enough rating than aiming to be one of the nine most competent players in the whole of Smogon). From a purely selfish point of view (one I don't have, but this question might be asked) 'why should I bother?'
Also, is there a reason why applications aren't taking place now? Four weeks is hardly enough time to make a person qualified for the council who wouldn't have been before. Ofcourse there is the issue of a person being placed on the council and then that person being undecided when the time comes, but I don't see this as being too much of an issue. I see a problem in that choosing people later would attract people with 'I want Salamence OU/Uber' opinions as opposed to 'I beleive I can make a difference to the community. I have a few weeks to draw a conclusion' members. Ofcourse I am in no doubt of Aeolus' and Jumpan's selection skills in removing these biased applicants, but it opens the door to a risk I don't think we need if we are to be as objective as possible.
I hope someone can answer me here. If I've missed something blatantly obvious, sorry.
Possibly true that Dragonite is better, just was giving an example of a viable roost set. Ladies Man example of classic MixMence is probably better.
Anyone else ever used the Mixed Dancer set? It can really mess with your opponent's head.
Salamence@ Life Orb
Naive
4 Atk/252 SpA/252 Spe (you can monkey with these but Max Speed is a godsend)
Draco Meteor
Outrage
Earthquake
Dragon Dance
Use with Magnezone or a good Scizor lure for best results. Draco Meteor does 70% + to Standard Mixpert and Standard Hippowdon and 1HKO's Gliscor. Your Physical attack output is slightly lessened, but after a Dragon Dance you still shouldn't have issues sweeping through the opposing team.
Did you seriously just mention Scizor as a Swords Dance and Roost using Pokemon at the same time?
I think I just shit myself from laughing so hard.
First off, Swords Dance Scizor? No. Even with Bullet Punch, you don't have Speed to do shit against things like Heatran and Magnezone. Dead.
Roost? Doesn't have the type-resistances, or the Speed, to pull it off reliably. Dead again.
Defenses above average? Which defense? Physical? Because, there's this new thing called 'Intimidate'. I heard it's really supposed to shake up the meta-game and make Salamence harder to kill, but I'm not too sure.
So what if you lose a turn of sweeping. If it comes down to Roost Dragon Dance Salamence, and you have 10 HP left (or whatever, as long as you have enough to live through an attack), and your opponent can't hit you for Super Effective damage (or set up on you previously), then that's it. You just Roosted your HP back up to over half, which means you can attack at least five more times (Life Orb recoil).
There's a reason why people pair Magnezone up with Salamence. Maybe you should look it up.
Yea, I did just point out a Scizor using Roost and Swords Dance.
And I know that people pair Magnezone with Salamence, I use them both on my team.
Sorry, I was just trying to prove a point that Roost on Salamence is uncommon.
Try looking at the stats next time instead of making false claims. From the april stats:
Scizor | Move | Roost | 14.8
Salamence | Move | Roost | 25.5
Heres a damage calc for you:
Min attack jolly mence +1 eq vs 248hp scizor: 41-48%. Scizor isnt roosting on that anytime soon.
Scizors +2 life orb bullet punch vs bulky mence: 69%-82%
Virtually a draw.
Also, the scizor i used was 248hp 252att 8spe. Complete magnezone bait.
You are right though, roost is mostly for use against stall teams.
This thing is DEADLY with an draco plate to bluff a a choice item. Sometimes eq doesnt hit hard enough though.
http://cap.smogon.com/ShoddyStats/2010-04/Smogon-201004-Details-Standard.html
No problem, their in the op of the april stats. You have to click to reveal the links though.
Oh thanks.
Well, I don't use Shoddy at all. I'm a wifi player, and Roost (from personal experience) on Salamence is not common. :x
I think Salamence should stay OU.
Well, I only recently got posting access to Policy Review and so I forgot to comment on this system, but I (as I'm sure most people on Smogon do) really hope that this works out well. In addition to the benefits mentioned in the PR thread, I think that this will blur the line between general policy review and suspect testing/whatever and make the whole process more flexible as well as more streamlined. We could potentially get a whole host of possible decisions made under this umbrella.
The Salamence test should be interesting not only in itself but also as a sort of "pilot" for the Smogon Council system. I haven't really thought about Salamence as a suspect so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
The Salamence test should be interesting not only in itself but also as a sort of "pilot" for the Smogon Council system. I haven't really thought about Salamence as a suspect so it'll be interesting to see what happens.
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