Salamence Theorymonning

[Sixfortyfive]

Perhaps the term Uber needs to be redefined.

Doesn't matter.

No, really.

No matter how specific a process is set up, people will just vote along subjective lines anyway. Go back to the Garchomp vote and you'll see a handful of rationalizations that are nothing more than "I think a metagame without Chomp is just more fun." Some voters still use that line of thinking. Even when people genuinely attempt to vote along those Uber characteristics you linked to, they're usually a little biased. People are more inclined to think that a suspect "is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams" if it happens to simply sweep only the teams that they use.

I don't really have a problem with this, as the results should still be fairly solid as long as the voting pool is large enough. I just wish people would drop the pretense that this is a particularly objective process.

Its not about him not having counters. Its about him forcing you to sacrifice a poke just to find out witch set is running.

I typically don't have to do this. Four of my current six team members outspeed/outprioritize and OHKO him out of the gate. The other two can take at least one hit from him and either OHKO him in return or phaze him out. The only set that is somewhat problematic for a few of my team members is a Scarfed set, which I can revenge easily enough and don't think is a big enough deal to worry about.

Granted, my team is built for a pretty niche playstyle and has its fair share of weaknesses. There are maybe half a dozen popular Pokemon in OU that can steamroll anywhere from 3 to 5 of my team with little or no resistance, so if I lose one or two key members before I know what else my opponent is packing, I'm done for. But at any rate...

People will never be satisifed. People hate things that annoy them. Sometimes bans are based completely around annoyance (Froslass). It's a game and these Pokemon are threats, people just don't want to adapt to them. They bat a blind eye and scream "broken".

^ Pretty much this.

This might not be the right thread to ask, but does anyone know what changes will be made to the tiering when (1) Black & White are released and (2) Shoddy Battle 2 brings the doubles metagame into play? I'm mainly concerned about 2 at the moment. IMO, the tiers as they are now hardly apply to doubles, and the doubles metagame should have a tier system all to itself. The prospect of a metagame without a fixation on entry hazards, switches, and counters is so appealing to me right now that I can't bring myself to care too much about which Dragon people are throwing their arms in the air and hyperventalating over with each suspect test.

 

[TheValkyries]

Perhaps the term Uber needs to be redefined. This thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566 does a very good job of it, but I believe we are going to have to do it again. If we are to have a truly fluid Metagame we need to have a common consensus on what is and what is not Uber. Latias is just an example of what is not a complete agreement on "Uber-ness". Salamence will be another regardless, but if we can have a reason why then we can at least have an understanding of what is going on.

Perhaps we add a clause that says at least two common sets must fit under at least one of the Uber Characteristics.

Any sweeper or wallbreaker, if your team cannot handle it, will sweep you or cause substantial damage. If you neglect threats such as Salamence, Latias, Infernape, etc. then you shouldn't be able to beat everything.

I know no one will care, but I often build my teams around a certain Pokemon or two, rarely keeping threats in mind. I don't do poorly, however, I know I'm not a serious ladderer (haven't laddered in a long, long time) and my example doesn't mean much to anyone. Salamence has always been there and people, imo, are too lazy to just deal with it.

On another note, there is always the spiraling effect with banning Pokemon. Salamence and Latias would never have been considered broken in the Garchomp centralizied metagame, yet they were considered the most broken now. The same can be said for UU. Roserade wasn't broken until Shaymin and Crobat and the like were gone. Now people want to do away with Rain Dance or Moltres or Dugtrio (ive seen it) completely. People will never be satisifed. People hate things that annoy them. Sometimes bans are based completely around annoyance (Froslass). It's a game and these Pokemon are threats, people just don't want to adapt to them. They bat a blind eye and scream "broken". Nothing we (the "Salamence is OU!") people can do about it. meh

Sure any sweeper can do that. But even prepared teams can lose their one counter to Salamence very easily if you predict wrong. If you don't have a check for a sweeper is one thing, but if you have no reliable answer to a pokemon even in a well built team, then you're in trouble.


EDIT: I am also enjoying the "Obviously voting is biased towards removing things that are annoying" arguments. The creation of tiers was to establish a more fun environment to play Pokemon competitively in. Without such it'd be an eternal Ubers, and we'd never see the usage of lesser, but very usable Pokemon that are seen in OU. If you do not subject you're vote to the bias of more fun, then you are simply ruining the original idea behind tiers in the first place.

 

[Bad Ass]

Great... When i'm about to start ev training my naive Bagon into a MixMence, I hear that its going to be inspected for being uber... Awesome day...

i think salamence is ou on these grounds. i just evolved my bagon into a shelgon but fuck now ITS USELESS AAA

also uberiffic please never post again. ever.

edit that includes this thread

 

[Frawg]

i think salamence is ou on these grounds. i just evolved my bagon into a shelgon but fuck now ITS USELESS AAA

also uberiffic please never post again. ever.

edit that includes this thread

IKR and that pic of Victoria Justic iz hawt

 

[SJCrew]

If I may, I'm going to sum up most every pro-Salamence OU argument in this thread...

I'd like to first point out that almost every single argument has mentioned "being prepared for it" or used the phrase "with the right team." Quite frankly that alone should be popping red flags off to how dangerous this thing truly is. In team building, you should always think goal first, threats second. But the way people are talking about this suddenly considerably more powerful Salamence, they are thinking Salamence first, Goal second, and Other threats third. This is simply not the way it should be. When a pokemon impacts the game so thoroughly, that you have to think about it as a threat WHILE you build your team, and not after, is simply a testament to how overpowered it is.

Hell, Latias had more tangible counters than Salamence does now, and with a beast like that unleashed on the metagame you are guaranteed to lose at least one pokemon in the process of "taking it down". Here's a likely scenario that may happen in the current metagame for Salamence...

Salamence's teammate goes down to a physical attacker. Salamence comes in and intimidates. With this physically bulkier set the intimidated attacker won't do enough to break the Sub that Mence just set up. Now Mence takes out the enemy, and waits for the Ice Shard (CB Weavile/Scarf Mamoswine). Ice Shard takes out your sub while in return you take out the revenge killer. Now you're at a weak 62% (Stealth Rock and Sub + Lefties recovery) with no sub. From there Starmie can come in and clean up with Ice Beam.


In this scenario you must sac two pokemon just to take it out. Well that's all well and good. But what if you switch to the Ice Shard user knowing a Sub will pop up. Well, herein lies the problem...

Salamence's teammate goes down to a physical attacker. Salamence comes in and intimidates. Cleverly the attacker is switched out to the Ice Shard abuser immediately thus saving it's life, while also minimizing the damage done. But instead of subbing up the Salamence uses Dragon Dance. This isn't good. Now you're forced to use Ice Shard, since Ice Punch isn't fast enough. Yache Berry weakens the effect of Ice Shard, Salamence only takes 67% damage. Salamence OHKO's with Flamethrower. Starmie goes in, is taken down by the faster Outrage. Outrage spam takes out more and more of your team until it's GG.


Well say you ran a Scarf Starmie to take out both possibilities...

Salamence switches out for Weavile while Scarf Starmie uses Ice Beam. weavile takes 30% Damage from Rocks and Beam. Checkmates the Starmie with Pursuit. With some wish support Salamence can come back out as he pleases.


Simply put, with the amount of variety that Salamence has, you have to predict perfectly to minimize damage. And by minimize damage I mean sac only one pokemon instead of 3. If you cannot see how overpowered that is, then you are sadly blind.


EDIT: Magnezone Says hi to Steel types that switch in to Outrage too.

Holy shit, man. Where the hell was all that intelligence during your RMT thread? I didn't know you had such solid argumentative skills.

Not to kiss ass, but those are a lot of good points you raise and it appears the pro-Ubers side is making a lot more solid claims than pro-OU. If things keep up the way they are, Salamence could be well on its way to Ubers.

 

[Boondocker]

Any sweeper or wallbreaker, if your team cannot handle it, will sweep you or cause substantial damage. If you neglect threats such as Salamence, Latias, Infernape, etc. then you shouldn't be able to beat everything.

I know no one will care, but I often build my teams around a certain Pokemon or two, rarely keeping threats in mind. I don't do poorly, however, I know I'm not a serious ladderer (haven't laddered in a long, long time) and my example doesn't mean much to anyone. Salamence has always been there and people, imo, are too lazy to just deal with it.

On another note, there is always the spiraling effect with banning Pokemon. Salamence and Latias would never have been considered broken in the Garchomp centralizied metagame, yet they were considered the most broken now. The same can be said for UU. Roserade wasn't broken until Shaymin and Crobat and the like were gone. Now people want to do away with Rain Dance or Moltres or Dugtrio (ive seen it) completely. People will never be satisifed. People hate things that annoy them. Sometimes bans are based completely around annoyance (Froslass). It's a game and these Pokemon are threats, people just don't want to adapt to them. They bat a blind eye and scream "broken". Nothing we (the "Salamence is OU!") people can do about it. meh

You can give a solid argument as to why samamence isnt broken, or you can prove the people who think it is broken wrong (we have posted multiple reasons why we think its uber. I could spell them out for you again but id rather not unless i have to). No one cares about latias garchomp and roserade. THIS IS SALAMENCE. Even if people wont ever be satisfied, thats not a reason to keep a broken pokemon in ou. I agree sometimes bans are based on annoyence (skymin..) but salamence is not annoying. He dominates in a metagame where people have gone to extremes to check him (MINIMUM 2 steals every team), and theres nothing anyone can do about it without running a shitty poke. Its not us being lazy. Its salamence being overpowered (maybe).

EDIT: And the way you build teams is extremely nooby, no offence.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Once Platinum gave every Dragon Outrage I've wanted to get rid of Salamence. The thing is broken. I have to guess the set and then try to lure an Outrage to have a shot. I gave up pokemon for about 6 months to get on track with my schoolwork. When I came back I was in shock. Latias in OU? Why? Less than a year later people are trying to keep a very broken pokemon in OU because "it's been here so long." Salamence is in the same boat now that it learns Outrage. The power this thing packs is ridiculous. I'm a little biased because I use stall and can't stand being swept by the Dragon (and having to dedicate resources to stopping it). The problem with Salamence, quite honestly, is its speed. Dragonite's abysmal speed makes up for its raw power. Salamence's speed ties with most of its Scarfed checks after a DD. Your check just turned into a 50% check even after managing to switch in safely (which is no small feat, by the way).

I know that the comparison to other pokemon isn't a very convincing argument, but it sums up how I feel. I would love to play in a Salamence-free metagame for a little. After that I'll make a final decision.

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

Ugh, this entire Topic seems to be filled with all Mence haters, really. Mence isn't THAT hard of a pokemon to deal with. You guys keep saying Dragon Dance this Dragon Dance that, Anything that SETS up Dragon dance is going to be a problem. If Scizor sets up a sword Dance, THATS going to be a problem. If Ttar sets up a dragon Dance, THATS going to be a problem. Also, I recall a guy saying that if you have to prepare for a pokemon, then it MUST BE a huge threat. Pfft, if you don't prepare for anything ANY pokemon can be a huge threat. Yeah, Mence CAN be hard to predict, but still, knowing that it can run both Draco Meteor and Outrage, shouldn't it make that make your job alittle easier in predicting it? My point is, you guys keep saying Dragon Dance, If anything sets up a Stat boosting move, they can be a HUGE threat.

 

[TheValkyries]

Ugh, this entire Topic seems to be filled with all Mence haters, really. Mence isn't THAT hard of a pokemon to deal with. You guys keep saying Dragon Dance this Dragon Dance that, Anything that SETS up Dragon dance is going to be a problem. If Scizor sets up a sword Dance, THATS going to be a problem. If Ttar sets up a dragon Dance, THATS going to be a problem. Also, I recall a guy saying that if you have to prepare for a pokemon, then it MUST BE a huge threat. Pfft, if you don't prepare for anything ANY pokemon can be a huge threat. Yeah, Mence CAN be hard to predict, but still, knowing that it can run both Draco Meteor and Outrage, shouldn't it make that make your job alittle easier in predicting it? My point is, you guys keep saying Dragon Dance, If anything sets up a Stat boosting move, they can be a HUGE threat.

So you're saying if it gets a stat boost up, then we should say GG and be done with it? No, that's just not right. Gyarados can wall SD Scizor, TTar is outrun by everything base 120+ (And can't out run base 65s that have choice scarves) and is OHKO'd by EQ/Bullet Punch/ Any fighting move ever/ etc. Stat Boosts don't mean auto win. With Salamence, it pretty much does, especially when it doesn't need a stat boost to have the same desired effect.

As per your response to my point of team building. Threats should only be considered after you build the team, not before or while you build it. Because then the goal of the team changes to countering one single pokemon. While that may be an effective strategy, it leaves little room for variety and creates a largely stale and monotonous metagame.

 

[Frawg]

Ugh, this entire Topic seems to be filled with all Mence haters, really. Mence isn't THAT hard of a pokemon to deal with. You guys keep saying Dragon Dance this Dragon Dance that, Anything that SETS up Dragon dance is going to be a problem. If Scizor sets up a sword Dance, THATS going to be a problem. If Ttar sets up a dragon Dance, THATS going to be a problem. Also, I recall a guy saying that if you have to prepare for a pokemon, then it MUST BE a huge threat. Pfft, if you don't prepare for anything ANY pokemon can be a huge threat. Yeah, Mence CAN be hard to predict, but still, knowing that it can run both Draco Meteor and Outrage, shouldn't it make that make your job alittle easier in predicting it? My point is, you guys keep saying Dragon Dance, If anything sets up a Stat boosting move, they can be a HUGE threat.

I agree. I mean Salamence isn't all that great since it has poor defensive stats.. I mean cmon. Salamence being in an uber battle? It pretty much would get raped by almost every pokemon thats uber now.

 

[MegaKick]

I agree. I mean Salamence isn't all that great since it has poor defensive stats.. I mean cmon. Salamence being in an uber battle? It pretty much would get raped by almost every pokemon thats uber now.

How it fares in Ubers has no baring on weather it is banned. Deoxys doesn't do so well in ubers, let's unban it.
As for defensive stats, intimidate, water resist, ground immunity, fire resist, fighting resist go a long way for ease of switchin. Once he's switched in, he doesn't need defense

 

[Shock Trooper]

One question that's racked my mind about this: If Salamence has been broken with the use of Outrage for the past two years, how did it take this long for people to consider it suspect worthy? Did people just fall asleep for two years, or are people falling asleep now? I really wonder that.

 

[Boondocker]

One question that's racked my mind about this: If Salamence has been broken with the use of Outrage for the past two years, how did it take this long for people to consider it suspect worthy? Did people just fall asleep for two years, or are people falling asleep now? I really wonder that.

I think people have been so used to it being ou that they havent really noticed. Plus we got caught up in the garchomp bs...

I agree. I mean Salamence isn't all that great since it has poor defensive stats.. I mean cmon. Salamence being in an uber battle? It pretty much would get raped by almost every pokemon thats uber now.

No one cares how well he will do in ubers. If hes too good for ou he is an uber. End of story. Sheesh i think im gonna pull my hair out if i hear another person bring up his performence in the uber tier.

 

[MegaKick]

I think people have been so used to it being ou that they havent really noticed. Plus we got caught up in the garchomp bs...

Yeah, between stage 3 and the fact that people are too stuck in the old ways to realize it can be banned.
I look forward to the ladder. I wonder if anyone will switch sides, or if everyone will remain adamant.

 

[TheValkyries]

One question that's racked my mind about this: If Salamence has been broken with the use of Outrage for the past two years, how did it take this long for people to consider it suspect worthy? Did people just fall asleep for two years, or are people falling asleep now? I really wonder that.

Other faster Dragon Types existed in OU for the past two years, so Salamence was kept in check. Now that those have been made uber, Salamence is no longer checked by anything and is free to terrorize anything and everything it pleases.

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

So you're saying if it gets a stat boost up, then we should say GG and be done with it? No, that's just not right. Gyarados can wall SD Scizor, TTar is outrun by everything base 120+ (And can't out run base 65s that have choice scarves) and is OHKO'd by EQ/Bullet Punch/ Any fighting move ever/ etc. Stat Boosts don't mean auto win. With Salamence, it pretty much does, especially when it doesn't need a stat boost to have the same desired effect.

As per your response to my point of team building. Threats should only be considered after you build the team, not before or while you build it. Because then the goal of the team changes to countering one single pokemon. While that may be an effective strategy, it leaves little room for variety and creates a largely stale and monotonous metagame.

WHAT? Ttar IS NOT 0HKO'd By Bullet Punch/Earthquake. Gyarados IS another Dragon Dancer, and i'm not saying just because it Stat boost its GG, I'm saying that anything that Stat boost becomes harder to deal with. And A Mence with A dragon Dance ISN'T a autowin. And it DOES need a Stat Boost To get ANYWHERE, our Pokemon like Weavile and Metagross is going to run wild on Mence. You guys are making Mence seem godly when it clearly isn't.

 

[kingdra22]

I am so gonna OU again. After those 2 are gone. Thanks for this :)

 

[TEA_DEMON]

I don't think the Suspect ladder has ever looked more appealing...

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

Other faster Dragon Types existed in OU for the past two years, so Salamence was kept in check. Now that those have been made uber, Salamence is no longer checked by anything and is free to terrorize anything and everything it pleases.

Last time I checked, Garchomp was Uber for quite some time now, so the only pokemon that was supposedly able to keep mence in check was latias, and now thats put into the Uber list, Mence is supposedly going to terrorize every OU in the poke metagame....

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I am also enjoying the "Obviously voting is biased towards removing things that are annoying" arguments. The creation of tiers was to establish a more fun environment to play Pokemon competitively in. Without such it'd be an eternal Ubers, and we'd never see the usage of lesser, but very usable Pokemon that are seen in OU. If you do not subject you're vote to the bias of more fun, then you are simply ruining the original idea behind tiers in the first place.

Nobody has said that tiers shouldn't exist. Some (myself included) are just concerned about Uber-creep, in which people zero in on various "broken" OUs one by one and kick them off to a banlist instead of playing and thinking around them like they should be.

Some of those lesser used Pokemon are used primarily to counter top threats anyway. My hail team loves to go up against pseudo-legendary dragons. My NP/Taunt Mismagius loves to set-up on Blissey. Pokemon deemed to powerful/annoying for most OUs to switch-in and handle sometimes create opportunities for niche Pokemon to shine, and removing them makes those Pokemon even more niche.

 

[Boondocker]

WHAT? Ttar IS NOT 0HKO'd By Bullet Punch/Earthquake. Gyarados IS another Dragon Dancer, and i'm not saying just because it Stat boost its GG, I'm saying that anything that Stat boost becomes harder to deal with. And A Mence with A dragon Dance ISN'T a autowin. And it DOES need a Stat Boost To get ANYWHERE, our Pokemon like Weavile and Metagross is going to run wild on Mence. You guys are making Mence seem godly when it clearly isn't.

I didnt wanna have to do this but you leave me no choice. When facing a dd mence you have 2 options: revenge kill with a faster poke (100 base speed and a scarf) or use the move ice shard (no other priority kos after sr). These are the ou pokes above 100 base speed or that carry ice shard:

Ninjask: Never scarfed, and is only ou because he seems good to noobs. Cant ko even if scarfed.

Aerodactyl: Almost always used as a lead, scarf verions fail HORIBLY in the metagame

Jolteon: Really needs the power from specs, never seen with a scarf

Azelf: Same as aero

Starmie: Decent revenge killer

Gengar: Decent revenge killer

Infernape: Like jolteon it really needs a boosting item. Without it it just fails.

Weavile: Weak to sr, fails against ever common steals

Mamoswine: Fails against stall, but otherwise a pretty decent choice

Cb Scizor: Complete magnezone bait, wont always ko after sr and 1 lo recoil

Out of these, the only viable checks to dd mence are weavile, mamoswine, scarf starmie, and scarf gengar. NONE of them can switch in because if they get hit with a dragon attack (or even fire some cases) they will be swiftly ko'd. You must sacrifice a poke to bring them in safely, and mence can keep doing the same thing over and over. Pokes like gyra and ttar are different because they only have 1 effective sweeping set, both have hard counters, and are much much slower. Mence is not a god, but he is on a different level then other ou sweepers. DD sets are hell for offensive teams and mixmence is hell for stall teams.

EDIT- Scizors bp does 60%-69%. So fine ill put him up there

 

[Sy123]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, my Dragon Monotype team is no more,
It was:
-Seviper
-Laitas
-Salamence
-Flygon
-Milotic
-Dragonite

grrrr, both Latias and Salamence are key members to my team, OK, its time to go to Ubers, and make an Ubers Dragon team, it would be so cool, considering my user on Shoddy/Pokemon Online is Lance :)

But if I say so myself, it is about time, looks like my favourite pokemon, Infernape, is going to be seen a lot more, especially scarf nape.
By the way Bullet Punch, is I think a OHKO, with Stelath Rock in play, agist the standard DDancer

 

[CHENN]

WHAT? Ttar IS NOT 0HKO'd By Bullet Punch/Earthquake. Gyarados IS another Dragon Dancer, and i'm not saying just because it Stat boost its GG, I'm saying that anything that Stat boost becomes harder to deal with. And A Mence with A dragon Dance ISN'T a autowin. And it DOES need a Stat Boost To get ANYWHERE, our Pokemon like Weavile and Metagross is going to run wild on Mence. You guys are making Mence seem godly when it clearly isn't.

Salamence is still a threat without a stat boost. You're acting as if it's a completely useless Pokemon without Dragon Dance. Yes, the DD Mence sets are extremely threatening, but they're not the only things that Mence can do well. And it's not only that Salamence can run wreck a large part of most -- if not all -- teams, it's that it can do it with a huge variety of sets. You could even say that Salamence is so dangerous because of all the sets it has, and all the moves it can use. It's ridiculous to say that Salamence can't be a threat without Dragon Dance.

Weavile? Sure, Weavile can revenge Mence, but are you going to stick a Weavile on your team for the sole purpose of forcing Mence out? And Metagross? EQ and Fire Blast. "We're" not trying to say that Mence is a godly Pokemon that cannot ever be stopped, etc. etc. We're just trying to say that Salamence deserves to be banned from the OU Metagame.

 

[S.T.A.R.S.]

I didnt wanna have to do this but you leave me no choice. When facing a dd mence you have 2 options: revenge kill with a faster poke (100 base speed and a scarf) or use the move ice shard (no other priority kos after sr). These are the ou pokes above 100 base speed or that carry ice shard:

Ninjask: Never scarfed, and is only ou because he seems good to noobs. Cant ko even if scarfed.

Aerodactyl: Almost always used as a lead, scarf verions fail HORIBLY in the metagame

Jolteon: Really needs the power from specs, never seen with a scarf

Azelf: Same as aero

Starmie: Decent revenge killer

Gengar: Decent revenge killer

Infernape: Like jolteon it really needs a boosting item. Without it it just fails.

Weavile: Weak to sr, fails against ever common steals

Mamoswine: Fails against stall, but otherwise a pretty decent choice

Out of these, the only viable checks to dd mence are weavile, mamoswine, scarf starmie, and scarf gengar. NONE of them can switch in because if they get hit with a dragon attack (or even fire some cases) they will be swiftly ko'd. You must sacrifice a poke to bring them in safely, and mence can keep doing the same thing over and over. Pokes like gyra and ttar are different because they only have 1 effective sweeping set, both have hard counters, and are much much slower.

Here again you made my point, DO NOT LET IT SET UP. You've been on this same topic all day talking about DRAGON DANCE MENCE, Lead Azelf CAN and most likely WILL Taunt a Lead Mence. Lead Mamoswine Would Probably set up a Stealth Rock THEN PROCEED TO ICE SHARD IT, Lead Weavile, Pfft, Do I have to even say more to that? Mence really isn't that hard of a counter, Hell, A scarfed Flygon with Outrage can Destroy a Mence. Now if you do let mence set up a Ddance then yeah, thats when your theory comes into play and you deserve what ever punishment you get from mence, even though if you come prepared for physcial sweepers you shouldn't be hurt that bad.

 

[CHENN]

Stars, if you're saying "if you let Salamence set up Dragon Dance, you deserve to be swept" then it SHOULD be moved to Ubers. The fact that setting up a single Dragon Dance makes Mence so dangerous and hard to kill is a huge reason as to why Mence should be moved to Ubers. Also, the Pokemon you listed are pokemon that Revenge it, not counter it. Can any of those pokemon safely switch in on one of Salamence's moves?