The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Tooks]

In one of the Smog articles,they wrote about the top 10 offensive threats.Under Salamence's description,there was a question asking if it would ever be uber.The answer was :

"On paper Salamence seems very close to be regarded as an "uber" Pokemon. In practice, though, it does have some issues. The prevalence of Stealth Rock and Sandstorm hurts Salamence's performance. Not only does it take 25% just from switching into Stealth Rock, an extra 6% damage from Sandstorm on top of 10% per turn from Life Orb recoil wears it down extremely quickly. Remember the comment regarding to Outrage locking Salamence onto the field? That can also spell trouble since it allows a Steel-type a free switch-in after a revenge kill. For example, a Choice Band Scizor can easily KO a 50% Salamence locked into Outrage. What's worse is that Pokemon like Mamoswine and Weavile can come in for the revenge kill and easily dispatch Salamence with STAB Ice Shard."

So I think residual damage plays a part in keeping it from becoming Uber.

 

[mudkipmaster]

After playing 50 battles, I have found a lower of usage in Scizor, and TTar ( 8 scizor, 5 TTar). This allows OU's that were commonly left out because of these Pokés like Gengar, Rotom, DDNite, Flygon, Starmie, Infernape, and Heatran and can be used as valuable team players now. I found that Stealth Rock is a lot less used by offensive teams now (41 out of 50 did). Also a raise in grass-types like Breloom, Roserade and Torterra. I've found that Salamence as Uber balances the OU metgame to near perfection!

Salamence for Uber!!!!!! :)

EDIT: After 3 more battles no more Scizors or TTars. Magnezone is no longer valuable.
A perfectly balanced metagame!

 

[Nachos]

After playing 50 battles, I have found a lower of usage in Scizor, and TTar ( 8 scizor, 5 TTar). This allows OU's that were commonly left out because of these Pokés like Gengar, Rotom, DDNite, Flygon, Starmie, Infernape, and Heatran and can be used as valuable team players now. I found that Stealth Rock is a lot less used by offensive teams now (41 out of 50 did). Also a raise in grass-types like Breloom, Roserade and Torterra. I've found that Salamence as Uber balances the OU metgame to near perfection!

Salamence for Uber!!!!!! :)

EDIT: After 3 more battles no more Scizors or TTars. MAgnezone is no longer valuable.
A perfectly balanced metagame!

I disagree. The suspect ladder is as centralised as the current OU one, if not more so. I've played a good few games these past few days, and I have to disagree when people say "so much more things are viable now".

I've found that while things like Scizor have fallen, things like Heatran have risen dramatically, to the point where not seeing Heatran on a team is strange. While one could argue that Salamence makes the game overcentralised around steels etc etc...I could say the same thing about the standard Fuk Dragon team which is literally Heatran/Water/Celebi, Shaymin or Breloom + a ghost. Not overcentralising as such, but it does show that some things are clearly dominant than others, and we're just going to have to accept that.

There's also the fact that people are testing new things atm, as this metagame is very different to OU, so while it may seem like pokemon that were rare sights in 'the other OU' are now more frequently used, eventually it'll become like the OU we all know where pokemon like Dusknoir stay at the bottom of the ladder and things like Heatran and Jirachi keep their current position.

I guess I'm in the minority when I say this, but I prefer the standard OU metagame to Suspect.

 

[Veedrock]

After playing 50 battles, I have found a lower of usage in Scizor, and TTar ( 8 scizor, 5 TTar). This allows OU's that were commonly left out because of these Pokés like Gengar, Rotom, DDNite, Flygon, Starmie, Infernape, and Heatran and can be used as valuable team players now. ... Also a raise in grass-types like Breloom, Roserade and Torterra. I've found that Salamence as Uber balances the OU metgame to near perfection!

Salamence for Uber!!!!!!

One could very easily credit every one of those mentioned increases (minus the dragons) to Latias' removal rather than Salamence's.

 

[mudkipmaster]

One could very easily credit every one of those mentioned increases (minus the dragons) to Latias' removal rather than Salamence's.

Except that I was seeing none of this in standard play.

 

[remlabmez]

Just wondering, what is it that you don't like about the metagame? You're one of the few players I actually give a rats ass about, so I'm interested in what you don't like so far. Like you said yourself, everybody else seems to be enjoying it aside from random scrubs who hardly know what they're talking about anyways.

ps i like the quote in your sig lol

what nachos said pretty much sums up most of my thoughts, I thought a metagame without latias and mence would be good, but it turns out i prefer a metagame without latias and mence still here, every suspect team ive faced is literally heatran/bulky water/ loom, shaymin or celebi.

Also the fact that I dont think mence is that broken without latias, the fact that SR is always up unless you support but thats a different story

 

[Galactic Boss Cyrus]

Finally, some sort of anti-Salamence thread. And only 4 years into Gen 4, too!

Salamence is an offensive powerhouse that only contributes to the overly offensive state of the Gen 4 OU metagame. Offense is to Gen 4 as defense was to World War One. I don't see what good Salamence does for the game. One Dragon Dance + Outrage destroys everything, and his counters, such as Mamoswine and Weavile, are nearly unusable because they don't do anything else.

 

[sundy]

Finally, some sort of anti-Salamence thread. And only 4 years into Gen 4, too!

Salamence is an offensive powerhouse that only contributes to the overly offensive state of the Gen 4 OU metagame. Offense is to Gen 4 as defense was to World War One. I don't see what good Salamence does for the game. One Dragon Dance + Outrage destroys everything, and his counters, such as Mamoswine and Weavile, are nearly unusable because they don't do anything else.

Um, what about Mamoswine SR leads and Weavile Trapper/Revenge Killers?

 

[kokoloko]

Um, what about Mamoswine SR leads and Weavile Trapper/Revenge Killers?

Look up their usage statistics, they're barely there for a reason. And it doesn't even matter - neither one of them actually counter Salamence. They can only come in after something else has died and by then Salamence has done his job. On top of that, what's preventing me from switching my dragon out of your Ice Shard? Weavile's CB Pursuit? Sure, I'll just set up half the world on you if you don't mind. Not to mention your so-called counters both get raped by the most used move on most used pokemon in Standard.

 

[holitrix]

Um, what about Mamoswine SR leads and Weavile Trapper/Revenge Killers?

Mamoswine is only good for killing Dragons and it works pretty well as a lead sometimes, but it has more weaknesses than its uses.

Weavile is just simply outclassed by Scizor or even Dugtrio.

 

[SubVersion]

People seem to be confusing "more things are viable" (if that is even true, which I'm not convinced it is) with "this is a better metagame". They're not the same.

The lack of Salamence's hole-punching power increases the overall viability of everything, not just the things that were previously inviable. The "best pokemon" are still going to be the "best pokemon", and just being viable in the new metagame doesn't mean anything new will actually get used there. Look at Porygon2: It became well and truly viable after Garchomp was banned, and yet still sits in NU because the things it competes against got better, too.

With Salamence nowhere near as broken as Garchomp (if he is broken at all, which I have seen no reason to believe), the effect his removal will have on bolstering the inviables is likely to be even less pronounced. I honestly won't be surprised if the removal of Salamence doesn't bring anything new into OU.

 

[mudkipmaster]

Um, what about Mamoswine SR leads and Weavile Trapper/Revenge Killers?

Although I agree, MixMence renders stall useless and DDMence rips apart teams after 2 boosts. Mence has a large diversity which is why it's only 2 counters have very little uses other than to counter Mence....Also, Mence usually has teammates that can handle them. Salamence is a offensive powerhouse that can only be handled by moving it to the Uber tier

 

[Bad Ass]

Yeah, Weavile is terrible in a metagame riddled with dragons, Gengar, Starmie, Rotom and a bunch of pokemon who are weak to Low Kick / Night Slash. Plus it can actually boost; who would use that? It can outspeed and OHKO rotom, all tyranitar, the grass types of suspect, etc etc. I'm not saying to go out and use Weavile now, but it isn't terrible. This thread is getting a bunch of really retarded posts, and there have been like 20 non retarded ones

also what the fuck salamence has no counters it has checks. and i actually prefer standard to suspect for the reasons nachos posted. In fact, nachos pretty much summed everything up perfectly. Salamence is not uber.

 

[Staraptor Call]

I disagree. The suspect ladder is as centralised as the current OU one, if not more so. I've played a good few games these past few days, and I have to disagree when people say "so much more things are viable now".

I've found that while things like Scizor have fallen, things like Heatran have risen dramatically, to the point where not seeing Heatran on a team is strange. While one could argue that Salamence makes the game overcentralised around steels etc etc...I could say the same thing about the standard Fuk Dragon team which is literally Heatran/Water/Celebi, Shaymin or Breloom + a ghost. Not overcentralising as such, but it does show that some things are clearly dominant than others, and we're just going to have to accept that.

There's also the fact that people are testing new things atm, as this metagame is very different to OU, so while it may seem like pokemon that were rare sights in 'the other OU' are now more frequently used, eventually it'll become like the OU we all know where pokemon like Dusknoir stay at the bottom of the ladder and things like Heatran and Jirachi keep their current position.

I guess I'm in the minority when I say this, but I prefer the standard OU metagame to Suspect.

The question is not "which metagame do I like better." It is "Does Salamence meet any of the characteristics of an Uber." This discussion should be about whether the characteristics of an Uber fit Salamence and not about ones own personal preferences. Stating ones personal preferences in regards to metagames does not promote discussion and is nothing more than an opinion.

A Pokemon's effect on the centralization of the metagame does not affect whether that Pokemon is broken. If a Pokemon is balanced in a metagame, it can still gain very high usage and have a huge influence on that metagame. I doubt many people would support banning Scizor, even though it has been used on around one third of teams for many months. The reverse is true as well; on the Official Server during the Wobbuffet test, Wobbuffet was only ranked 44th in usage. The extent to which a Pokemon causes or prevents centralization has no bearing on its Uber status. Also, we don't even know if the metagame is more centralized with Salamence gone - we will have to wait for usage statistics to see if it is or not.

 

[SJCrew]

Not to mention your so-called counters both get raped by the most used move on most used pokemon in Standard.

Calling bullshit on this argument because there are way too many Pokemon in OU that take pitiful damage from both U-turn and Bullet Punch for that to even come close to a credible argument. Weavile and Mamo will have to switch out like basically everything else in the tier that has a counter and when they do, I'm pretty confident Rotom or Zapdos can just wall the shit out of it.

While we're at it, let's highlight why using random superlatives to strengthen your argument is stupid:

"Weavile gets a guaranteed kill on two of the most used sets of one of the most used Pokemon in the Suspect metagame regardless of which move it uses." (Starmie lol)

Yeah, that sounds swell before you consider that SR has to be gone, and Weavile can still get set up on by something that resists said move. Same with Scizor: getting a free U-turn on a wall that resists it doesn't do shit.

 

[ungulateman]

Calling bullshit on this argument because there are way too many Pokemon in OU that take pitiful damage from both U-turn and Bullet Punch for that to even come close to a credible argument. Weavile and Mamo will have to switch out like basically everything else in the tier that has a counter and when they do, I'm pretty confident Rotom or Zapdos can just wall the shit out of it.

While we're at it, let's highlight why using random superlatives to strengthen your argument is stupid:

"Weavile gets a guaranteed kill on two of the most used sets of one of the most used Pokemon in the Suspect metagame regardless of which move it uses." (Starmie lol)

Yeah, that sounds swell before you consider that SR has to be gone, and Weavile can still get set up on by something that resists said move. Same with Scizor: getting a free U-turn on a wall that resists it doesn't do shit.

He meant Earthquake, dude. Not BP and U-turn.

 

[capefeather]

Weavile is one of those lower OU Pokémon that I secretly respect because every time I face one I know it could be pretty threatening but the user's probably not using it properly.

 

[SJCrew]

most used pokemon in Standard.

Scizor.

the most used move on most used pokemon in Standard.

U-turn.

Please learn to read.

 

[M BLADE]

I'm one of the only few people who knows how to use Weavile.
The amount of times it sweeps for me is impressive.

Note the word "sweeps". That should mean something to you guys.
It is useless against stall though.

 

[Ericcc]

Weavile is one of those lower OU Pokémon that I secretly respect because every time I face one I know it could be pretty threatening but the user's probably not using it properly.

This is true. Weavile as a sweeper is beastly if there's no more Scizors/ bulky waters in the way. (Vap/Gyara/Pert)
I'm expecting for Mence to go Uber, so the need for Ice Shard won't be as demanding, and Ice Punch will probably raise in usage.
And Weavile as a lead is amazing. It Taunts slow leads like Pert and Bronzong, and horribly cripples lead Roserade. It also has access to Fake Out, so you can break the opponent's sash, and then switch out to an appropriate counter.

He also outspeeds some of OU's most used Pokemon like Gengar and Azelf, whom he can OHKO with Night Slash.

 

[TheValkyries]

I disagree. The suspect ladder is as centralised as the current OU one, if not more so. I've played a good few games these past few days, and I have to disagree when people say "so much more things are viable now".

I've found that while things like Scizor have fallen, things like Heatran have risen dramatically, to the point where not seeing Heatran on a team is strange. While one could argue that Salamence makes the game overcentralised around steels etc etc...I could say the same thing about the standard Fuk Dragon team which is literally Heatran/Water/Celebi, Shaymin or Breloom + a ghost. Not overcentralising as such, but it does show that some things are clearly dominant than others, and we're just going to have to accept that.

There's also the fact that people are testing new things atm, as this metagame is very different to OU, so while it may seem like pokemon that were rare sights in 'the other OU' are now more frequently used, eventually it'll become like the OU we all know where pokemon like Dusknoir stay at the bottom of the ladder and things like Heatran and Jirachi keep their current position.

I guess I'm in the minority when I say this, but I prefer the standard OU metagame to Suspect.

Heatran isn't remotely centralizing. It's just useful. Also, Heatran has a majorly usable 100% counter. His name is Scarfed Flygon. He laughs at all fire moves, comes out on Earth Power just to flaunt his manly jiggly bits, and swallows almost every other filler move whole.

Creativity breeds more creativity. With no obvious threat to centralize to this metagame doesn't have to shape itself to a select core of usable pokemon. It can actually stay as diverse at it is.

 

[ungulateman]

Scizor.


U-turn.

Please learn to read.

Sorry, I was assuming he meant Pokemon as a plural. (EQ is the most common move in the metagame, according to statistics.)

Also, BP is more common than U-turn because SD Scizor doesn't run U-turn. Just saying.

Heatran isn't remotely centralizing. It's just useful. Also, Heatran has a majorly usable 100% counter. His name is Scarfed Flygon. He laughs at all fire moves, comes out on Earth Power just to flaunt his manly jiggly bits, and swallows almost every other filler move whole.

Dragon Pulse. It's on almost every set in the Strategy Dex.

 

[Ericcc]

Sorry, I was assuming he meant Pokemon as a plural. (EQ is the most common move in the metagame, according to statistics.)

Also, BP is more common than U-turn because SD Scizor doesn't run U-turn. Just saying.

Yea, BP is in fact more common than U-Turn, but SD Scizor itself isn't as common as Banded Scizor, who always runs U-Turn.

 

[TheValkyries]

Sorry, I was assuming he meant Pokemon as a plural. (EQ is the most common move in the metagame, according to statistics.)

Also, BP is more common than U-turn because SD Scizor doesn't run U-turn. Just saying.



Dragon Pulse. It's on almost every set in the Strategy Dex.

There is no reason for Heatran to ever be using Dragon Pulse against something that isn't a Dragon. Flygon is pretty much safe to switch in.
And even still, there are other things you can switch in. Flygon isn't the only one... [insert bulky water of your choice] can do it too


EDIT: Max SpA Dragon Pulse from Timid/Naive Heatran doesn't OHKO Flygon from 100% even with Rocks. Thought I'd let you know.

 

[Hcapt]

There is no reason for Heatran to ever be using Dragon Pulse against something that isn't a Dragon. Flygon is pretty much safe to switch in.
And even still, there are other things you can switch in. Flygon isn't the only one... [insert bulky water of your choice] can do it too


EDIT: Max SpA Dragon Pulse from Timid/Naive Heatran doesn't OHKO Flygon from 100% even with Rocks. Thought I'd let you know.

I disagree. dragon pulse is the safest attack for scarf-tran when anticipating a switch.