Ah. I thought it was more spread out. Whatever. The Clause may still pop up.
hmm i dont like that idea at all... banning a pokemons ability is almost too intrusive(plus dw shanderaa wont be released on shoddy til its on dw so we have a while). sayin a pokemon cant hold an item is one thing but their ability? no this is an important part to each pokemon... its like taking away a specific move saaying its too good for that pokemon.... dont like the idea of a shadow tag clause at all.
hmm i dont like that idea at all... banning a pokemons ability is almost too intrusive(plus dw shanderaa wont be released on shoddy til its on dw so we have a while). sayin a pokemon cant hold an item is one thing but their ability? no this is an important part to each pokemon... its like taking away a specific move saaying its too good for that pokemon.... dont like the idea of a shadow tag clause at all.
Specific items AND moves have already being banned. That's even more intrusive, imho.
@sensible
I respectfully disagree. Not all Dream World abilities are broken. Shadow tag is broken solely because it prevents the pokémon of having a true counter.
Why would this ability be banned? This thing can only pull of a shadow tag 4 times MAXIMUM because of stealth rock, unless it dares to wear leftovers which isnt wise because its prolly gonna get hit on the switch in and then it HAS to out speed the foe or its bye bye!
Moves and items aren't as much a trait of the Pokemon themselves as abilities are. We shouldn't be changing the individual Pokemon to suit OU. Why not add a Water Spout clause while you're at it?Specific items AND moves have already being banned. That's even more intrusive, imho.
Moves and items aren't as much a trait of the Pokemon themselves as abilities are. We shouldn't be changing the individual Pokemon to suit OU. Why not add a Water Spout clause while you're at it?
You wouldn't ban Water Spout. But if you would, it would be because it's such a large part of what made Kyogre so powerful.Why would you ban Water Spout?
Shadow Tag can potentially allow Shandy to set-up a clean sweep, with 6 calm minds and some nitro charge to boost speed.
As much as I would love to see Shadow Tag shandy stay in OU (hint: NOT in ubers), I don't think this will be possible.
So, what we're suggesting, is that a Shadow Tag clause would be more viable that vanishing the pokemon entirely.
Moves and items aren't as much a trait of the Pokemon themselves as abilities are. We shouldn't be changing the individual Pokemon to suit OU. Why not add a Water Spout clause while you're at it?
what moves have been banned(moves on all pokemon shouldnt count like horn drill... double team etc). A pokemons ability is almost its identity... thats very intrusive
You made an excellent point over there, which is the reason I suggested Flash Fire discussion in page 7, iirc.Thorhammer said:There's no reason to assume anything just yet. We don't know if Shadow Tag Shanderaa will even exist
When talking about shadow tag clauses, we're talking about banning the ability on all pokemon, so it is akin in that sense to banning OHKO moves. Because all pokemon with shadow tag can take on alternate abilities, it we are arguing that it would be more desirable to ban the ability than the pokemon.
For example: in Gen 4 tests of drought and drizzle on low-level kyogre/groudon (or even magikarp) lead to the conclusion that the ability was still overpowered under the support clause. If drought and drizzle are still considered to be broken in gen 5, why should we ban politoed and ninetales because they have the option to have drizzle and drought? They likely wouldn't get any use in Ubers, so we'd essentially be throwing out two decent pokemon just because they could use broken abilities, but don't have to.
Similarly, if we decide that shadow tag is fundamentally overpowered, why should we ban all pokemon that have the option of having shadow tag when we don't need to put it on them and they could be competitively viable in other tiers?
It probably won't come to that anyway since I highly doubt chandera will be uber with shadow tag. Wobbuffett is uber because of the combination of shadow tag, his bulk, and having encore/tickle. Not just because of shadow tag. Arena trap is almost the same ability yet dugtrio and trapinch are not banned.
It probably won't come to that anyway since I highly doubt chandera will be uber with shadow tag. Wobbuffett is uber because of the combination of shadow tag, his bulk, and having encore/tickle. Not just because of shadow tag. Arena trap is almost the same ability yet dugtrio and trapinch are not banned.
Banning OHKO moves is a far broader ban than just banning Shadow Tag from four Pokemon. Banning Shadow Tag is far more a direct change to Shanderaa specifically.When talking about shadow tag clauses, we're talking about banning the ability on all pokemon, so it is akin in that sense to banning OHKO moves. Because all pokemon with shadow tag can take on alternate abilities, it we are arguing that it would be more desirable to ban the ability than the pokemon.
For example: in Gen 4 tests of drought and drizzle on low-level kyogre/groudon (or even magikarp) lead to the conclusion that the ability was still overpowered under the support clause. If drought and drizzle are still considered to be broken in gen 5, why should we ban politoed and ninetales because they have the option to have drizzle and drought? They likely wouldn't get any use in Ubers, so we'd essentially be throwing out two decent pokemon just because they could use broken abilities, but don't have to.
Similarly, if we decide that shadow tag is fundamentally overpowered, why should we ban all pokemon that have the option of having shadow tag when we don't need to put it on them and they could be competitively viable in other tiers?
ehh banning shadow tag is in fact an identity issue for a pokemon and i think the game can very well adjust to the new weather pokemon too. the fact that shadow tag is only on 3 pokemon makes it very specific... but seems like soul dew now that i think bout it. still against banning a pokemons ability... tooo intrusive.
Thorhammer said:Banning OHKO moves is a far broader ban than just banning Shadow Tag from four Pokemon. Banning Shadow Tag is far more a direct change to Shanderaa specifically.
Thorhammer said:Regarding your example of Politoed and Ninetales, first, let's back up a bit and establish that banning Shadow Tag is not akin to banning all OHKO moves. Banning Shadow Tag is akin to banning Sheer Cold. A comparison to banning all OHKO moves would be banning Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and Magnet Pull. If it's really the ability to trap and not the Pokemon that uses it that's the problem, then all of those abilities should be banned. Would you say that all of those abilities should be banned?
Now that that's known, if Drizzle and Drought really turn out to be broken not because Ninetales and Politoed have them, but because they exist at all, regardless of the Pokemon that have them, then a ban against auto Sun/Rain abilities would be more reasonable, because it really is the ability that's broken. However, with Shanderaa, it's only the combination of the ability and the Pokemon that is broken, not the ability alone. Therefore, banning Shadow Tag is entirely different from a hypothetical, unlikely ban of Drizzle and Drought.
Except Shanderaa has two immunities which it can freely set up on choice attacks with, get up 6CMs and Sweep, and makes any Pokemon slower than it with a Ghost/Fire Weakness (or in some cases, even neutrality due to that massive SpA stat) unviable.
Forretress frequently carries earthquake and can just explode to screw your setup. Nattorei has leech seed, payback, toxic, and can also just explode. Plus both of them will often run shed shell for magnezone anyway.It makes a good number of strats (Choice Normal/Fighting, using Pokemon like Forry or the new Grass/Steel) just plain unusable.
Wrong.I'm pretty sure you cannot see others' teams in Pal Pad Matches.