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Chandelure
- Thread starter tennisace
- Start date
hmm i dont like that idea at all... banning a pokemons ability is almost too intrusive(plus dw shanderaa wont be released on shoddy til its on dw so we have a while). sayin a pokemon cant hold an item is one thing but their ability? no this is an important part to each pokemon... its like taking away a specific move saaying its too good for that pokemon.... dont like the idea of a shadow tag clause at all.
If one DW ability is banned, then they all have to be banned. That's my opinion.
Specific items AND moves have already being banned. That's even more intrusive, imho.
@sensible
I respectfully disagree. Not all Dream World abilities are broken. Shadow tag is broken solely because it prevents the pokémon of having a true counter.
what moves have been banned(moves on all pokemon shouldnt count like horn drill... double team etc). A pokemons ability is almost its identity... thats very intrusive
We're just hypothetically speaking. If Shadow Tag Shandy turn out to be broken, I'd rather get a Shadow Tag Clause instead of banning the poke itself.
Moves and items aren't as much a trait of the Pokemon themselves as abilities are. We shouldn't be changing the individual Pokemon to suit OU. Why not add a Water Spout clause while you're at it?
Why would you ban Water Spout?
Shadow Tag can potentially allow Shandy to set-up a clean sweep, with 6 calm minds and some nitro charge to boost speed.
As much as I would love to see Shadow Tag shandy stay in OU (hint: NOT in ubers), I don't think this will be possible.
So, what we're suggesting, is that a Shadow Tag clause would be better than vanishing the pokemon entirely.
You wouldn't ban Water Spout. But if you would, it would be because it's such a large part of what made Kyogre so powerful.
There's no reason to assume anything just yet. We don't know if Shadow Tag Shanderaa will even exist yet.
very much agree with you on this one. no way should there be specific ability clauses. dw ability clause is fairer but very unlikely imo. the point(to my understanding) of shoddy is to have a fair non-centralized combat for competitive learning. banning a specific pokemons ability strips it of its important niche in competitive play
When talking about shadow tag clauses, we're talking about banning the ability on all pokemon, so it is akin in that sense to banning OHKO moves. Because all pokemon with shadow tag can take on alternate abilities, it we are arguing that it would be more desirable to ban the ability than the pokemon.
For example: in Gen 4 tests of drought and drizzle on low-level kyogre/groudon (or even magikarp) lead to the conclusion that the ability was still overpowered under the support clause. If drought and drizzle are still considered to be broken in gen 5, why should we ban politoed and ninetales because they have the option to have drizzle and drought? They likely wouldn't get any use in Ubers, so we'd essentially be throwing out two decent pokemon just because they could use broken abilities, but don't have to.
Similarly, if we decide that shadow tag is fundamentally overpowered, why should we ban all pokemon that have the option of having shadow tag when we don't need to put it on them and they could be competitively viable in other tiers?
I'm one of those who never agreed on the Salamence ban, but that's another story.
Still, I guess a Dream World Clause would still be somewhat viable, but meh.
Still, I guess a Dream World Clause would still be somewhat viable, but meh.
You made an excellent point over there, which is the reason I suggested Flash Fire discussion in page 7, iirc.Thorhammer said:
It probably won't come to that anyway since I highly doubt chandera will be uber with shadow tag. Wobbuffett is uber because of the combination of shadow tag, his bulk, and having encore/tickle. Not just because of shadow tag. Arena trap is almost the same ability yet dugtrio and trapinch are not banned.
ehh banning shadow tag is in fact an identity issue for a pokemon and i think the game can very well adjust to the new weather pokemon too. the fact that shadow tag is only on 3 pokemon makes it very specific... but seems like soul dew now that i think bout it. still against banning a pokemons ability... tooo intrusive.
Actually, that's yet another decent point. Arena Trap + Claw Sharpen Dugtrio is a relatively similar case to Shadow Tag + Calm Mind Shandera.
The most notable difference I can think of, Dugtrio can only set up in locked electric moves, while Shandy can actually take some weaker, resisted hits.
Except Shanderaa has two immunities which it can freely set up on choice attacks with, get up 6CMs and Sweep, and makes any Pokemon slower than it with a Ghost/Fire Weakness (or in some cases, even neutrality due to that massive SpA stat) unviable.
It makes a good number of strats (Choice Normal/Fighting, using Pokemon like Forry or the new Grass/Steel) just plain unusable.
That's Shanderaa's problem.
It makes a good number of strats (Choice Normal/Fighting, using Pokemon like Forry or the new Grass/Steel) just plain unusable.
That's Shanderaa's problem.
To be fair, flying types aren't trapped by arena trap, so shadow tag is somewhat more powerful, but regardless, based on all the videos I've seen of Shandera so far, in which no one managed to use shadow tag to set up a sweep, I agree that we may be worrying prematurely about it being banned. =P
Banning OHKO moves is a far broader ban than just banning Shadow Tag from four Pokemon. Banning Shadow Tag is far more a direct change to Shanderaa specifically.
Furthermore, there's the matter of the reason behind the ban. OHKO moves and Evasion moves were banned not because Pokemon using them would become uber, but just because they added a pure luck factor to the game that in no way increased competitiveness. (At least, I assume it was something along those lines.)
Regarding your example of Politoed and Ninetales, first, let's back up a bit and establish that banning Shadow Tag is not akin to banning all OHKO moves. Banning Shadow Tag is akin to banning Sheer Cold. A comparison to banning all OHKO moves would be banning Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and Magnet Pull. If it's really the ability to trap and not the Pokemon that uses it that's the problem, then all of those abilities should be banned. Would you say that all of those abilities should be banned?
Now that that's known, if Drizzle and Drought really turn out to be broken not because Ninetales and Politoed have them, but because they exist at all, regardless of the Pokemon that have them, then a ban against auto Sun/Rain abilities would be more reasonable, because it really is the ability that's broken. However, with Shanderaa, it's only the combination of the ability and the Pokemon that is broken, not the ability alone. Therefore, banning Shadow Tag is entirely different from a hypothetical, unlikely ban of Drizzle and Drought.
it makes a good number of strats (Choice Normal/Fighting,
Honestly, how often do you run into Choice'd Fighting or Normal moves? Sure, CB Scizor loves to spam Superpower or Brick Break, but that's the only example I can think of. Choice pokes usually scout until you know most of your opponent's team. At least, that's from my experiences in Shoddy.
using Pokemon like Forry or the new Grass/Steel) just plain unusable.
Heatran and HP fire almost everywhere never stopped Forry nor Scizor in Gen IV.
Honestly, how often do you run into Choice'd Fighting or Normal moves? Sure, CB Scizor loves to spam Superpower or Brick Break, but that's the only example I can think of. Choice pokes usually scout until you know most of your opponent's team. At least, that's from my experiences in Shoddy.
using Pokemon like Forry or the new Grass/Steel) just plain unusable.
Heatran and HP fire almost everywhere never stopped Forry nor Scizor in Gen IV.
Yes, the game can adjust to new weather Pokemon (if drizzle and drought are banned I would be shocked) just not those on the extremes of Kyogre and Groudon. What I think you're not seeing is that unlike before, we had to ban the Pokemon because of its ability. Without shadow tag, wobbles is pretty much useless and Shanderaa isn't nearly as deadly. Do they deserve to be banned to a metagame where they will be somewhat outclassed because banning their ability is an "identity issue?" No, of course not! If abilities are their "identity" then why cant they use one of their other "identities?" I put "identities" in quotes because I dont think their ability is what identifies them (not the only factor in it) cause then they wouldn't have a unique identity cause they share that ability with other Pokemon.
Really? And you dont think banning Shanderaa itself is specific?Thorhammer said:
Just because the ban wouldn't have a precedent doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. A ban against all auto sun/rain abilities, up until now, was impossible, now, however, it is possible to do without banning the Pokemon. Why should shanderaa be banned because of shadow tag when its other nonshadow tag sets are completely ok?Thorhammer said:
With all those common weaknesses, low hp, mediocre def, and lowish spe, he's going to have a hard time sweeping even if you do manage to set up 6 calm minds.
Forretress frequently carries earthquake and can just explode to screw your setup. Nattorei has leech seed, payback, toxic, and can also just explode. Plus both of them will often run shed shell for magnezone anyway.
You're also forgetting that we can now see teams before battle. If you see a chanderaa before the fight, you know not to choice yourself into anything he's immune to until you get rid of him.
Wrong.