Chandelure

KokoaKiwi said:
Shadow Tag Scarf enemy Shandera comes in. Since you both can switch (or so does your opponent think), he'll expect you to switch to a steel type to take the obvious shadow ball, thus, he'll just Fire Blast.
Congratulations on successfully trolling with Flash Fire. Now you are free to do whatever the hell you feel like. Sub, Nitro Charge, or just attack.
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Wait, I'm not sure what's going on in this situation.

How is the enemy coming in? If they switch out for Shandera, then they obviously know you're running a non-Shadow Tag set and thus not Fire Blast you while you're still trapped to eat a Shadow Ball. I also don't know if switching a non-Flash Fire-Heatran steel type into a fire type with that high of a SpA is a common reaction.
 
cobaph said:
Wait, I'm not sure what's going on in this situation.

How is the enemy coming in? If they switch out for Shandera, then they obviously know you're running a non-Shadow Tag set and thus not Fire Blast you while you're still trapped to eat a Shadow Ball. I also don't know if switching a non-Flash Fire-Heatran steel type into a fire type with that high of a SpA is a common reaction.
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You have an amazing point I never even considered, I admit it. I'm guessing both times I pulled it was against Shed Shell pokes. It went something like this.

I switch in my Shandera.
Nattorei goes back, and in comes enemy Shandy.
He Fire blasts, expecting me to switch in something to take the Shadow Ball.
I absorb it with Flash Fire. He is now forced out, while I can pseudo set up or fire my own boosted Fire Blast from 389 SpA.
 
KokoaKiwi said:
...this is the shandera thread. Shadow Tag is the only thing being discussed here, but mods just won't do a thing about it.
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Shadow Tag is probably the most controversial ability in the game, and given that it's obtainable by a Pokemon with so much strength and potential, I don't see why you're so surprised that people want to weigh in their thoughts on it. If you can't get any discussion going about Flash Fire then that's kind of your fault for not saying anything interesting.
 
I, too, didn't consider the fact that they might have been running Shed Shell and thus fooled into thinking that they made a dramatic escape.

This is a pretty risky strategy though as you'll have to run it on the assumption they only "got out due to Shell."
 
cobaph said:
I, too, didn't consider the fact that they might have been running Shed Shell and thus fooled into thinking that they made a dramatic escape.

This is a pretty risky strategy though as you'll have to run it on the assumption they only "got out due to Shell."
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Well, the opponent, if (s)he is lazy, may only try to get out if that opponent knows (s)he can get out. Or a careful opponent tries to switch out because the only way Shandera would have Shadow Tag is if it was hacked.
 
SJCrew said:
Shadow Tag is probably the most controversial ability in the game, and given that it's obtainable by a Pokemon with so much strength and potential, I don't see why you're so surprised that people want to weigh in their thoughts on it. If you can't get any discussion going about Flash Fire then that's kind of your fault for not saying anything interesting.
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1) There's already a Shadow Tag Thread.
2) Shadow Tag Shandera doesn't exist yet.
 
2) Shadow Tag Shandera doesn't exist yet.
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Uh, yeah it does. It's in the game's coding and its release is being planned along with every other Pokemon in the game. Smogon's policy just means that it's not recognized competitively until it's released. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it until it happens. We're speculating everything else as it is, so why not this? If you want to talk about something else, keep trying to promote discussion on the topics that interest you. Don't get mad when no one bites.

And we're talking about Shadow Tag on Shandera. What do you think there are 22 pages of discussion for? Wobbuffet?
 
SJCrew said:
Uh, yeah it does. It's in the game's coding and its release is being planned along with every other Pokemon in the game. Smogon's policy just means that it's not recognized competitively until it's released. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it until it happens. We're speculating everything else as it is, so why not this? If you want to talk about something else, keep trying to promote discussion on the topics that interest you. Don't get mad when no one bites.

And we're talking about Shadow Tag on Shandera. What do you think there are 22 pages of discussion for? Wobbuffet?
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I think he means it hasn't been released yet -_-
 
SJCrew said:
Uh, yeah it does. It's in the game's coding and its release is being planned along with every other Pokemon in the game. Smogon's policy just means that it's not recognized competitively until it's released. That doesn't mean we can't talk about it until it happens. We're speculating everything else as it is, so why not this? If you want to talk about something else, keep trying to promote discussion on the topics that interest you. Don't get mad when no one bites.

And we're talking about Shadow Tag on Shandera. What do you think there are 22 pages of discussion for? Wobbuffet?
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You missed my point by a couple of miles.
1) [...]doesnt even exist yet.
By smogon standards, it's banned.

2)This a Shandera thread, not the Shadow Tag thread.
 
SJCrew said:
And we're talking about Shadow Tag on Shandera. What do you think there are 22 pages of discussion for? Wobbuffet?
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Well, no. You're wrong. We're talking about Shandera with Shadow Tag, not Shadow Tag on Shandera, the difference being that the sub-category is Shadow Tag. This isn't the Shadow Tag thread.

Ability-wise, Flash Fire and Shadow Tag have different and important uses. Flash Fire is easy as hell to activate now, with everyone running HP Fire for Nattorei. Shadow Tag is pretty much only useful if your victim can't do anything to you, which is better in certain situations like BP Banded Scizor.
 
KokoaKiwi said:
You missed my point by a couple of miles.
1) [...]doesnt even exist yet.
By smogon standards, it's banned.

2)This a Shandera thread, not the Shadow Tag thread.
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No, I didn't. I already addressed that stuff. Shandera has Shadow Tag, and it's going to be released. Bottom line. It's a very controversial ability, that's why people are discussing it. It's like saying "Kyogre is banned for now, but it's eventually going to be released at an arbitrary date." If we had any news like that, it's definitely going to be hot topic for a while. We can't just turn a blind eye to a big change like this and just say "shut up, it doesn't exist yet", even if Smogon Policy says it's banned for the time being.
 
SJCrew said:
No, I didn't. I already addressed that stuff. Shandera has Shadow Tag, and it's going to be released. Bottom line. It's a very controversial ability, that's why people are discussing it.
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There's a thread especifically for that. Until then...
Besides, have you even bothered to read the whole thread? Shadow Tag may be dangerous, but it's way overhyped.
 
I've read at least half of the Gen V threads in this forum and they all say the same thing about anything even slightly powerful. "Such and such is overhyped, stop getting excited about it." Why? We don't have a metagame yet and there's still huge potential for a Pokemon with such high base special attack and usable speed that can trap anything it wants.

I mean, if I catch Ttar slipping up early game, I could just bring in my Scarfed Shandera to kill it right then and there with HP Fighting. Then I can trap anything I want. Where's "Ttar Pursuits it all day" then? What if you don't have a Tyranitar at all? What if you sub on a Scizor locked into Bullet Punch and can get a free WoW on the revenging TTar? How much of an impact would Shandera have then?

There are so many factors at play here that we haven't considered and it's way too early to just write it off as "overhyped".
 
Choice Scarf 252SpA modest Shandera doesnt OHKO T-Tar. Damage calcs for every T-Tar variant have been posted in this thread already.
 
Who said anything about an OHKO? 70.2% - 83% is good enough. The point is that Shadow Tag allows Shandera to trap one of its potential counters and hit it with enough damage to KO it early on in the game. You'll have to play extremely conservatively with Tyranitar to make sure it doesn't happen, and that's not even taking into account that you might not even know your opponent is planning on doing this to begin with. Even if it has to revenge kill every time just to get in on it, it still traps and you can't do anything about it. Once TTar is gone, your other Pokemon are easy pickings.
 
Plus there are lots of Pokemon that can take a hit from Shandera and OHKO it with Crunch, Payback, Dark Pulse, Earthquake, Surf etc. A team with a single counter to Ghost and Fire? Highly unlikely.

Late game trapping is probably just as useful as late game Flash Fire.
 
SR is no longer a TM, probably the only TM besides OHKO moves not to stay because it was overpowered, but you can expect less of it, which is great for Shandy :). Unless it can be obtained via breeding/level up, it is not compatible with DW abilities. SR is not a giant problem.

Note the lack of Shadow Tag.
 
Zeburaika said:
SR is no longer a TM, probably the only TM besides OHKO moves not to stay because it was overpowered, but you can expect less of it, which is great for Shandy :). Unless it can be obtained via breeding/level up, it is not compatible with DW abilities. SR is not a giant problem.

Note the lack of Shadow Tag.
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It's still a big problem tho. Most of the top leads from 4th Gen haven't gotten good DW abilities or new egg moves so u can expect SR on them. And new stuff learn SR like Nattorei who was very common in the beta. SR might not be as accessible this gen, but it'll still probably be as common this gen, because it is just so good.
 
SJCrew said:
Shadow Tag is probably the most controversial ability in the game, and given that it's obtainable by a Pokemon with so much strength and potential, I don't see why you're so surprised that people want to weigh in their thoughts on it.
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The problem with people weighing in their thoughts is that most of them are the same thoughts already expressed, just rehashed and repeated on and on for pages. The thoughts aren't often particularly well formed beyond the "145 SpAtk + Shadow tag + hypothetical scenario which demonstrates power = BROKEN" stage, either. And then people who want to counter those thoughts have to post, and then it all repeats and doesn't go anywhere.

Admittedly, it's hard to go beyond that because unless you're pokesaving you don't have shadow tag shandera, but there are still things we can do beyond repeating the same superficial arguments for why we should fear shadow tag shandera over and over again. For example, we could analyse the youtube battles in which shandera is used and discuss how the battler could have better utilized shandera, because right now most people suck at using it. We could present calculations for damage shandera can do to various threats to it/good targets. We could combine this list with data from the speed tier thread to see what scarf ST shandera looks like it could reasonably threaten well, etc.

If you can't get any discussion going about Flash Fire then that's kind of your fault for not saying anything interesting.
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Even a decent quality signal can be pretty hard to pick up in the midst of too much noise.
 
Actually, Pokemon Online has 5th gen right now and you can feel free to abuse all the Shadow Tag Shandera you want. I'm actually doing that as we speak (with a pretty lackluster team but w/e, we're still learning this shit).
 
Honestly Dugtrio and Shandera make an excellent team, one kills faster things and one likes em slow. Either way, if you want something taken out, it's out. Ditto works better than Duggy though I suppose.
 
Scicky said:
Honestly Dugtrio and Shandera make an excellent team, one kills faster things and one likes em slow. Either way, if you want something taken out, it's out. Ditto works better than Duggy though I suppose.
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ditto doesnt trap though... but ditto is why i want to run a substitute on sub sweepers
 
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