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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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The reason you lost is because you didn't switch to a Pokemon that could have killed Octillery with a super-effective hit. Instead you tried to set ep entry hazards while Octillery raised it's stats.
Well I'm the one who won, but either way my opponent still managed to find something that absolutely walled octillery, he had a perfect counter to it yet still lost due to the sheer brokenness of Inconsistent.
It walled Octillery, but it couldn't kill it. Inconsistent users need to be dealt with quickly and not let them pack up stat ups. That's how I deal with them and I have no problem with them like the rest of you say....and I use UU pokes.
The problem is though as soon as Octillery gets a speed boost it becomes very difficult to stop (getting a speed boost turn 1 is just as bad as evasion, if not worse) as he immediatly sets up subs and protects and then just quickly gathers boosts. believe me if you've taken it down easily you've gotten extremely lucky.
Whether we ban the ability or the pokemon using it, I think Inconsistent needs to be dealt with immediately. It's absurdly difficult to stop without placing some extremely situational checks (EDIT: like a Perish Song user) on your team (which are even harder to find space for now that we have to [try and] prepare for such a huge number of other ridiculously powerful threats), and it throws anything resembling skill completely out the window whenever it pops up in a match. Considering we emergency-banned pokemon like Deoxys-S in the past, I don't see anything wrong with stepping in and regulating something the bulk of good players recognize as obviously detrimental to the metagame before the testing period is over. Running across these things honestly makes the game (and by extension, laddering for this suspect test) borderline unbearable.
I do one of two things vs Octillery depending on what happens the first couple of turns:
1) They ALWAYS protect first, giving you a free switch-in to something that can one shot it.
2) If they get lucky and get Speed during that turn, I immediately switch out to my phazer, roar them out and go back to 1) later.
Eventually their luck runs out and I can KO them. If they happen to get Evasion boosts or be the last pokemon standing, I Perish Song them straight to hell. Octillery is not broken, it's just a new fad that everyone is into because "OMG Inconsistent sharply raises a stat every turn!" It is a threat, yes, and should be dealt with like any other, BY PREPARING FOR IT. Will you lose to lucky breaks on occasion? It's certainly possible. It's also possible with just about any other viable threat in the game.
Instead of whining that it's a threat and it's broken so it needs to be banned, think for a second on what counters it and make those changes to your team. Adjusting to the metagame (especially one this new) is a requirement and if you can't do that then expect to lose.
1) They ALWAYS protect first, giving you a free switch-in to something that can one shot it.
2) If they get lucky and get Speed during that turn, I immediately switch out to my phazer, roar them out and go back to 1) later.
Eventually their luck runs out and I can KO them. If they happen to get Evasion boosts or be the last pokemon standing, I Perish Song them straight to hell. Octillery is not broken, it's just a new fad that everyone is into because "OMG Inconsistent sharply raises a stat every turn!" It is a threat, yes, and should be dealt with like any other, BY PREPARING FOR IT. Will you lose to lucky breaks on occasion? It's certainly possible. It's also possible with just about any other viable threat in the game.
Instead of whining that it's a threat and it's broken so it needs to be banned, think for a second on what counters it and make those changes to your team. Adjusting to the metagame (especially one this new) is a requirement and if you can't do that then expect to lose.
Smeargle is difficult as hell to phaze and I don't see anyone wanting to carry perish song on every team to deal with it. Even then Smeargle can Baton Pass to a Soundproof pokemon if it wants. And no matter how you look at it the fact that Octillery swept an uber team with Struggle (using 0 Attack EVs and a -Attack Nature) shows that these threats are ridiculous. I know some people just want them banned from OU but I'd rather that Inconsitent just wasn't allowed on any ladder (including ubers). I know you were talking about Octillery but I'm referring to the ability in general, that Inconsistent is just incredibly broken.
Ala hit the nail on the head.
And Perish Song Politoed is good, if you tried to think of other sets than Choice Scarf Politoed.
And Perish Song Politoed is good, if you tried to think of other sets than Choice Scarf Politoed.
Considering that some of the brofessionals were spamming Inconsistent, the easiest surefire counter is Porygon2. It traces your boost, takes jack shit from anything Oct or Bibarel can throw at you. Its only stopped by Toxic on Oct which I don't see very often.
*EDIT*: That isn't what I meant to say, it traces Inconsistant and after that you basically wall them and then you have your own sweeper
But it makes this metagame terrible and it needs to go asap
Oh Ala, again you have like 3 surefire counters. If my team had them too, I wouldn't be bitching. When I started playing with my regular laddering team, I had just as much trouble with them. I refuse to run Pokemon just to deal with one or two Pokemon in the metagame, that is rediculous.
*EDIT*: That isn't what I meant to say, it traces Inconsistant and after that you basically wall them and then you have your own sweeper
But it makes this metagame terrible and it needs to go asap
Oh Ala, again you have like 3 surefire counters. If my team had them too, I wouldn't be bitching. When I started playing with my regular laddering team, I had just as much trouble with them. I refuse to run Pokemon just to deal with one or two Pokemon in the metagame, that is rediculous.
Come on, Smeargle hasn't even been released yet, we don't need to actively discuss it in this thread.
I personally don't think Inconsistent is uber, although it's really annoying. The problem is that it's a new threat that just came out of nowhere (as in like yesterday) and everyone's been caught off-guard by it. I do agree that the Evasion boosts are extremely annoying, but they are possible to beat (sometimes). You just really have to be on your feet against these things and not give them any breathing room, because you will lose if you let it stockpile boosts like no one's business. Maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing that it forces people to stay on their feet.
It is possible to deal with these things thanks to Team Preview though since you at least know what kind of attacks not to throw around while the Inconsistent user is still alive. You can also formulate a strategy on how to play around them if you know that they're on the opposing team. Without Team Preview, Inconsistent users would be downright impossible to deal with without insane amounts of luck, but we have it, so don't count them off as uber just yet. (lol my opinion on this might change if I start facing them too many times in one day though. -.-)
Honestly, just thank god that none of the Inconsistent users get Assist Power. (Also, off-topic, but once DW Ditto comes out, opinion on these things will change greatly.)
Yeah ala. That's great if you're planning on just countering Octillery. The problem is there are so many other mons you have to prepare for, that preparing for Octillery cuts down on the rest of your available coverage. It completely centralizes the metagame, and there is no surefire way to get rid of it unless you make a specialized system to do it, and from my experience that team isn't very good when octillery isnt around.
No it won't ditto does nothing against these things since most of the time they can just get a sub up, plus every ditto ive seen in DW is scarfed meaning it cant really do much against these inconsistent pokemon. Its not about how hard they are to deal with (and they are hard to deal with) the reason I don't want it on any ladder (including ubers) is that it takes away from the skill of the game, and as a competitive community surely thats the last thing we want.
For one thing, Ubers is everything unbanned. We don't ban things based on performance in Ubers. Also, one battle doesn't prove that Octillery>Ubers. It was one battle.
Even if Smeargle does Baton Pass to a Soundproof pokemon, most of them suck anyway. Besides, he hasn't been released yet so we don't have to worry about him yet.
I suppose it could change, but we don't really ban abilities. How much does it take to make Octillery OU? Every pokemon would have different restrictions on movepools, EVs, abilities, etc. It would be one big mess.
Everyone is being too political once again...
It's only a slippery slope if you make it one by allowing dumbasses to pipe up about past instances. Each Poke should be taken case by case. If Inconsistent is too luck based and is viewed broken, then let's ban it. Now we have people bringing up "but then we can just ban random ass things too!" Look, we already did just by simply having an uber tier!!! So if I said shit like "well we already ban stuff like lugia then whats wrong with banning an ability" you'd most definitely think "is he seriously that retarded?" because that's what I'm thinking of people who say banning an ability is a slippery slope -_-
It's only a slippery slope if you make it one by allowing dumbasses to pipe up about past instances. Each Poke should be taken case by case. If Inconsistent is too luck based and is viewed broken, then let's ban it. Now we have people bringing up "but then we can just ban random ass things too!" Look, we already did just by simply having an uber tier!!! So if I said shit like "well we already ban stuff like lugia then whats wrong with banning an ability" you'd most definitely think "is he seriously that retarded?" because that's what I'm thinking of people who say banning an ability is a slippery slope -_-
Yeh ubers might be everything unbanned but people aren't allowed to spam Double Team in ubers but it removes from the skill of playing the game. And of course I'm not saying that Inconsistent is better than the uber tier but the point is when Octillery using struggle sweeps through Palkia, Gira-O, Heatran, Arceus and Groudon you know that this ability might be detrimental to the game.
You still have all of the Clauses (apart from Soul Dew) in Ubers, so stuff like Evasion is still banned. We ban such things because it makes the game less skill-based (and less competitive) and more luck-based. Inconsistent is similar in my eyes, especially when rewards greatly outweigh the risks.
I never used the phrase "slippery slope". If you're going by the "slippery slope" that some people have used in arguing a similar point, then know that that's not what I'm saying. It sounds similar, but I'm not simply repeating what others say.
I'm trying (and failing) to describe an entirely different point.
I didn't read the battle, srry. But it sounds to me like your opponent played terribly. Even at +6, Groudon probably doesn't take much from Struggle. I'll run the calcs in a minute.
I was referring to things on pokemon.
Evasion isn't banned. Evasion Clause simply prevents Double Team/Minimize from taking effect. A pokemon could run Double Team if it wanted.
We're talking about actually banning something from Ubers. We end up with a tier above Ubers. A tier of 1 pokemon.
I'm just saying that in the banning process, it doesn't matter if something is broken in Ubers, since technically Ubers is just a banlist for OU. I know that lots of people play Ubers, but it's not designed to be a stable metagame.
But how do you rate abilities. Usage is concrete statistics. It doesn't change based on opinion.
But when deciding what abilities go in what tier, different people would have different opinions.
And what if the ability is broken, but the user absolutely sucks? It would still end up in OU.
Or did I just argue your point for you?
I'm not quite sure I understand your point. We tier by usage but don't ban by usage.
In any practical interpretation, evasion clause does not prevent evasion raising moves from raising evasion, it forbids the use of moves raise evasion. PO/Shoddy/Lab are simulators of the pokemon game. In the game, the moves double team/minimize/etc raise evasion and this effect cannot be removed. It's meaningless to postulate that the evasion clause really only prevents these moves from being allowed to raise evasion because the only way to actually prevent those moves from raising evasion in game is to not allow the use of those moves at all. So, a proper way of stating your objection would be to say that the clause does not ban evasion, just the use of evasion-raising moves. Of course, previously there was no way to raise evasion outside of a move, so the spirit of the clause is still like the prevention of raising evasion.
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