np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I've skimmed through this thread and see way too many people suggesting a ban on Politoed in addition to or in place of a ban on Manaphy. Are you people serious? I hope the vote doesn't come down to that. There is absolutely no reason to ban Politoed in the initial stage. Manaphy is the obvious suspect with auto-rain status immunity and +3 Tail Glow. Without Manaphy, there isn't much that can wipe out everything in Rain. Can someone give a real reason why you would ban Politoed before Manaphy? Last time I checked, Rain Dance is still a TM and Damp Rock is still an item. It also is an additional check for Sand abusers like Doryuuzu.

Shit, I don't even think Manaphy is close to the best Rain abuser. If I see an opponent with Politoed I'm much more afraid if they have a swift swimmer in that slot than if they have Manaphy. Manaphy is great and all but in this metagame it can be outsped and killed quite easily. Ludicolo, Kabutops and especially especially Kingdra on the other hand are downright frightening. Nattorei is almost a requirement if you want to stop them and even then if the person is smart enough/spams specs kingdra hydro pump eventually nattorei goes down and you're usually wide open. So in my opinion manaphy is far from being the problem, it's the other rain sweepers and the reason they're so fucked is because of Politoed. So down with the toed (or drizzle)!

Also, it's quite hard to weather control against rain because Politoed has a surprising number of chances to come in for free against "normal" ss teams while Hippo/ttar rarely get the chance to come in ever against rain teams. You pretty much have to sack a mon if you want to change the weather against a rain team.

Comparing Drizzle to damp rock/rain dance is funny. Having dedicated setup mons hinders rain dance teams that are set up in that fashion. All rain teams need now is Politoed and then they can balance out the rest of the team however they see fit rather than making sure they have enough setup combined with enough sweepers. The two aren't similar at all.


Also gonna throw this in here I guess. You were talking about people not bringing up ttar/hippo because dory is broken but rather just bringing up dory. I'd assume that's because Dory is the only mon that's broken in the sand. Maybe if there were a ton of amazing pokemon like doryuuzu with sand throw then hippo and ttar could be considered for a ban but right now the only beneficiary of sand that pushes the broken line is dory. would you rather ban one mon or two?

 

[Wichu]

For one, 4th gen is a completely different metagame to 5th gen.

 

[Chou Toshio]

For another, level 1 kyogre or Groudon would have sucked balls anyway . . . and "watering down until its viable" is not something we do.

edit: Wow, that is some freaking amazing trolling . . . do you see that Avy and custom title?? That is epic. Thank you, X-mas has become that much more awesome.

 

[Miscellaneous]

I'm going to agree with Jabba on Manaphy, it's good but it's not brilliant. Manaphy suffers from stat distribution, i.e. it is either too frail or too slow for OU if it runs tail glow. I wouldn't be as scared facing a team centralized around a Manaphy sweep compared to other effective teams. Manaphy can be dealt with through good play. Having said that, Manaphy is still a very good pokemon due to the instant healing, and +3 stat up move. But manaphy suffers from either frailty or speed according to how you distribute the stats outside of Sp. Att. Perhaps a max Hp (or whatever maximises overall defense)/ Max speed Manaphy with rest, tail glow and 2 attacks might be interesting, although it loses some of the prodigious power of surf in rain.

Addressing the origins of weather (politoed, Ttar, etc.), I think we should tread carefully on banning these. The dervatives warrant more of a ban in my opinion, mainly because they are the pokemon that will actually win you the match or lean it in your favour. I don't think auto-weather is massively broken, it adds a degree of variety to the metagame. The origins of weather should only really be broken if they themselves offer a constant and forseable danger under what is dubbed "normal battle conditions". This is especially true of politoed, as it cannot do a lot in OU outside of offer auto-weather to the team. Almost giving up a slot in return for weather seems a fair substitute. The only case this may not be the case is if politoed obviously and undoubtably breaks almost every swift-swimmer and other sweeper in rain. I don't think that's true as of now, so a politoed ban isn't wise yet. Furthermore, there is probably more of a case for a ban on Ttar, as it can both set up weather and preform useful rolls simitaneously. However, Ttar isn't broken, and doesn't suffer the potential problem politeod does, because the only sweeper that gets a noticable boost from Sstorm is Doryy.

I'd also like to add that this suspect test is so early on, that any uncertainties shouldn't be considered yet. I'd rather use this test to get rid of something that is obviously detrimental to the metagame, something like Darkrai.

 

[November Blue]

How about you spend more than 10 seconds on a post and explain why it won't happen. The original starter of the Rayquaza debate had solid points backing up his argument. "It won't happen HURRDURR you're an idiot" isn't a rebuking. It's not even an insult.

THIS. It's too easy to say stuff like "No" and "Look at that, it says rayquaza is uber, end of story" or "Shut the fuck up you dumb noob."

Gabe, PK Gaming, I'm looking at you two.

He was told to "lurk more" by Haunter and other mods before and has made stuff like "Let's let Groudon and Giratina loose into OU as well".

Wow, you really look like an expert when you say stuff like that. For the record, I suggested G&G for discussion, because they seem like the most viable ubers. How viable, I'm not sure, but moreso than arceus and kyogre.


Rayquaza in OU

We all know him. Great 150/150/90 offensive stats, and reasonable 105/90/90 defenses. Air lock, extremespeed, swords dance. But could he be viable in OU?

No way, you say. He's too powerful! He has everything! He's the best dragon in the game!

Nice witty intro, moving on Thanks ^_^ BTW, I appreciate you posting this. When I posted this, I was aiming to generate discussion, not get my head bitten off.

I feel that, unless he's running a mixquaza set, he's largely outclassed by the other OU dragons, who can do what he does with higher speed, more specialized abilities and better typing. Vague statement, I know. Let's delve a little:

Outclassed by WHAT, exactly??

Base 95 speed is faster than dragonite and kingdra, and ties with kyurem. Everything else outspeeds him. This is important to note when considering a DD set. It also renders outrage an extremely risky maneuver, leaving him a sitting duck to a faster draco meteor or ice beam. While this may not have been a huge problem for dragonite in the past, it's an undeniable flaw. You can't argue Extremespeed as a solution either. Without a +2 boost, It can't OHKO many bulkier opponents who can threaten you. Just ask Deoxys-A. You can opt for the SD set, but you're now checked by non-scarved pokes. If you want to invest in attack and speed, you just make it easy for heatran and nattorei to heckle you.

Base 95 Speed is good enough in OU, especially with Dragon Dance. It really doesn't matter that Outrage is risky, the fact that +1 Outrage OHKOs 95% in the game, barring resists. Really? 95%? Anyway, If you KO something with outrage, I'm just going to bring in any other dragon or ice beamer and revenge you.

Even Skarm takes ~45% from Outrage, and if you switch into Fire Blast or something, you're gone. This is when Dragon Dance, in my opinion, is Rayquaza's worst set anyway.

What would he do in OU? If you want a dragon dancer, you're better off with mence. BulkyDD? Dragonite, gyara or ttar. Mence does mixed faster too. A physical SD set is better handled by garchomp, bar extremespeed. Special set? Sazando can use a scarf or cheer up set with STAB dark pulse, u-turn and half the ice weakness. Kyurem has... Well, he has frozen world. Speed issue solved on the switchin!

*sigh*, Mence is better at DD than Rayquaza. Part of me agrees, since I'd always use Mence over Ray in Ubers if I want a DD set, but never forget that Rayquaza can kill more things than Mence can with his suped up Attack (30 extra Attack 25 actually is actually a lot). "Mence doing mixed faster" is also eh. Have you forgotten or are you just ignorant on how much harder MixQuaza hits than Salamence?? Is there really that big a difference? What does mence fail to KO that ray can? Mence already hits hard, possibly rendering the higher attack superfluous.

If you think MixMence is hard to switch into, I don't know how the hell you're switching into Mixed Ray. Scarfed Jirachi, everyone's "favourite" Rayquaza "counter", takes 48.25% - 57.02% from Draco Meteor, meaning you are switching in ONCE. You can aim an Ice Punch at it, and get trapped immediately while Ray can just come in again later DM something else or kill Jirachi. Not if rocks are up.

Ray has a possible niche with air lock, SD and extremespeed.

lol POSSIBLE niche. I seriously wonder if when you typed those you have EVER played Ubers. Nope. If you think Lucario is deadly with Swords Dance and insane priority, don't even think about how much Rayquaza does. +2 LO Extremespeed OHKOs stuff like Palkia, who for OU is actually reasonably bulky. Seriously, Rayquaza can probably take out 5/6 Pokemon on an OU team with SD and Extremespeed ALONE, while the other Pokemon can be taken out with a single prediction of using Fire Blast or something. You're using life orb huh? Stealth rock might be up too! What will the Sd set run? Outrage, ES and overheat? Beaten by heatran. Outrage, ES and brick break/EQ? Still outsped and beaten by heatran. Shandera too, if you run BB. Froslass is immune to ES, and can outspeed without a scarf. Ice beam and destiny bond say hi. Scarf latios is popular too. What can mixquaza do to him?

Powerful ray may be, but he can't do everything at once. Nor does he allow you to predict perfectly everytime.

A lot of his counters already exist. He'd fit right into the current OU metagame IMO. Worth a test at the very least.

If you can name me ONE counter to Rayquaza, I will applaud you. Shandera? Froslass? Gengar? Scarftran? Scarflatios? Cresselia? These may not be counters per se, but there are a lot of pokes without proper counters in OU.

 

[Wafflez]

Firstly can we please not say that Inconsistence dsn't have any counters?It does.But these counters are just situational and somewhat unviable.

I honestly dont like the idea of banning the origins of the weather such early off.The weather is only as broken as its abusers and the only weather that has plentiful of abusers is pretty much limited to rain.If the majority of rain sweepers infact turn out to be broken then the suggestion of banning the inducers themselves might be put into consideration.If this is not the case then the more influential sweepers like Kingdra, Manaphy, Dory need to be looked over throughly.

Imo the former is not the case here and for the most part the weathers can effectively be played against.Its more likely that a select few abusers might be considerred remotely broken.Also as Chou pointed out most more experianced players dont tend to use more dedicated Weather teams because they simply aren't as effective as there aren't enough extreemely powerful abusers.I also agree with miscellaneous on simply Banning the more clear ubers like Darkrai,Deoxys and leave the more controversial things to be tested in a more stable metagame.

I think I messed up this post but w/e.
Oh and TROLOLOLOL Rayquaza in OU....

 

[sax king]

Okay, first off, no Rayquaza in OU. It has ridiculous offeses, strong priority, decent bulk, and even boosting moves. Who cares that it's not super fast? It's still a huge threat and carries Priority that overides other priority moves. As someone said before, a +2 ESpeed OHKO's pretty much the whole metagame besides dedicated walls, who can be taken care of with Rayquaza's regular attacks like Draco Meteor, Outrage, EQ, or Fire Blast. Raquaza also has Dragon Dance to raise its speed, so if you though that Gyarados or Salamence were tough, you're in for a suprise with Rayquaza.

In a different argument, I believe that Politoed is the rain suspect, not Kingdra. If you remove the sweeper, rain teams will find a new one. There are many other pokemon that sweep in the rain that make rain teams just as threatening. Kabutops, Ludicolo, Poliwrath, Omastar, and Armaldo to name a few. Kingdra isn't what makes Rain so scary, it's the whole playstyle. Kingdra was just the best abuser of rain, but there are plenty of others that are just as capable of making you say "Goddammit, another rain team swept me". Even rain stall is viable with Tentacruel, Parasect, and Ludicolo. Rain without Kingdra is still broken. Kingdra should not be up for suspect nomination, Politoed should.

 

[monkfish]

imo hold off on weather abusers until the metagame is a little more settled and we have banned the obvious suspects like darkrai, skymin, deo-a, inconsistent

 

[Miscellaneous]

In a different argument, I believe that Politoed is the rain suspect, not Kingdra. If you remove the sweeper, rain teams will find a new one. There are many other pokemon that sweep in the rain that make rain teams just as threatening. Kabutops, Ludicolo, Poliwrath, Omastar, and Armaldo to name a few. Kingdra isn't what makes Rain so scary, it's the whole playstyle. Kingdra was just the best abuser of rain, but there are plenty of others that are just as capable of making you say "Goddammit, another rain team swept me". Even rain stall is viable with Tentacruel, Parasect, and Ludicolo. Rain without Kingdra is still broken. Kingdra should not be up for suspect nomination, Politoed should.

I will definitely agree with you on the logic that rain, sun and sandstorm teams are fundamentally different. As everyone knows, rain is a kind of hyper offense, with a few bulkier sweepers like Manaphy. Sun is pretty rare because to be honest it sucks. Sandstorm pre 5th gen was more of a stalling technique, and now it can be used in a more balanced manor with Doryy.

Each weather is so different that it is completely illogical to categorise or deal with any in the same respect. I don't support a ban based on any playstyle yet, but what I'm trying to get accross is the exceution of any handicap imposed on a playstyle is only applicable thusly. i.e., if rain is too massively broken, it's probably "best" to ban politeod (as you said). But sandstorm being broken is probably more down to Doryy, or other abusers. It's never going to be the same process for any playstyle, that's why it's hard to ban on former's logic compared to a single one off ban that isn't so ambiguous. But anyway, it's stupid to categorise all forms of weather collectively. It shows a lack of understanding if you do so, although I'd avoid it altogether seeing as the general consensus seems to be that banning weather is contraversial at best, and in such an early stage I don't think anyone has the audacity to go against such uncertain opinions and force a ban that may very well be construed later on to have been a bad and ill informed mistake. Conservatism is very important right now.

 

[roberto22]

Very well said, Miscellaneous.

Bannning just one pokemon (Darkrai, Manaphy, etc) is much different than banning an entire playstyle. What if we decided that stall was broken? Would we ban toxic spikes on every pokemon? or every phazer?
Like others before me, I will say that it is way too early to even consider banning pokemon like politoed or doryuzzu. Maybe once skymin, darkrai and friends are gone and we see that some form of offense is unstoppable, then figure out a way to limit its success. But to try to do anything like that now is a little ambitious. Lets take this banning process a little more slowly and carefully (though getting these ubers out of ou maybe should go a little faster...)

Bottom line: We cant go around banning every single thing that is remotely good. Only things that take the competitive element out of the game (im looking at you, inconsistent!) and there needs to be careful testing to make sure that we are making the right move in banning pokemon/abilities.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

THIS. It's too easy to say stuff like "No" and "Look at that, it says rayquaza is uber, end of story" or "Shut the fuck up you dumb noob."

Gabe, PK Gaming, I'm looking at you two.




Wow, you really look like an expert when you say stuff like that. For the record, I suggested G&G for discussion, because they seem like the most viable ubers. How viable, I'm not sure, but moreso than arceus and kyogre.


Rayquaza in OU

We all know him. Great 150/150/90 offensive stats, and reasonable 105/90/90 defenses. Air lock, extremespeed, swords dance. But could he be viable in OU?

No way, you say. He's too powerful! He has everything! He's the best dragon in the game!

Nice witty intro, moving on Thanks ^_^ BTW, I appreciate you posting this. When I posted this, I was aiming to generate discussion, not get my head bitten off.

I feel that, unless he's running a mixquaza set, he's largely outclassed by the other OU dragons, who can do what he does with higher speed, more specialized abilities and better typing. Vague statement, I know. Let's delve a little:

Outclassed by WHAT, exactly??

Base 95 speed is faster than dragonite and kingdra, and ties with kyurem. Everything else outspeeds him. This is important to note when considering a DD set. It also renders outrage an extremely risky maneuver, leaving him a sitting duck to a faster draco meteor or ice beam. While this may not have been a huge problem for dragonite in the past, it's an undeniable flaw. You can't argue Extremespeed as a solution either. Without a +2 boost, It can't OHKO many bulkier opponents who can threaten you. Just ask Deoxys-A. You can opt for the SD set, but you're now checked by non-scarved pokes. If you want to invest in attack and speed, you just make it easy for heatran and nattorei to heckle you.

Base 95 Speed is good enough in OU, especially with Dragon Dance. It really doesn't matter that Outrage is risky, the fact that +1 Outrage OHKOs 95% in the game, barring resists. Really? 95%? Anyway, If you KO something with outrage, I'm just going to bring in any other dragon or ice beamer and revenge you.

Even Skarm takes ~45% from Outrage, and if you switch into Fire Blast or something, you're gone. This is when Dragon Dance, in my opinion, is Rayquaza's worst set anyway.

What would he do in OU? If you want a dragon dancer, you're better off with mence. BulkyDD? Dragonite, gyara or ttar. Mence does mixed faster too. A physical SD set is better handled by garchomp, bar extremespeed. Special set? Sazando can use a scarf or cheer up set with STAB dark pulse, u-turn and half the ice weakness. Kyurem has... Well, he has frozen world. Speed issue solved on the switchin!

*sigh*, Mence is better at DD than Rayquaza. Part of me agrees, since I'd always use Mence over Ray in Ubers if I want a DD set, but never forget that Rayquaza can kill more things than Mence can with his suped up Attack (30 extra Attack 25 actually is actually a lot). "Mence doing mixed faster" is also eh. Have you forgotten or are you just ignorant on how much harder MixQuaza hits than Salamence?? Is there really that big a difference? What does mence fail to KO that ray can? Mence already hits hard, possibly rendering the higher attack superfluous.

If you think MixMence is hard to switch into, I don't know how the hell you're switching into Mixed Ray. Scarfed Jirachi, everyone's "favourite" Rayquaza "counter", takes 48.25% - 57.02% from Draco Meteor, meaning you are switching in ONCE. You can aim an Ice Punch at it, and get trapped immediately while Ray can just come in again later DM something else or kill Jirachi. Not if rocks are up.

Ray has a possible niche with air lock, SD and extremespeed.

lol POSSIBLE niche. I seriously wonder if when you typed those you have EVER played Ubers. Nope. If you think Lucario is deadly with Swords Dance and insane priority, don't even think about how much Rayquaza does. +2 LO Extremespeed OHKOs stuff like Palkia, who for OU is actually reasonably bulky. Seriously, Rayquaza can probably take out 5/6 Pokemon on an OU team with SD and Extremespeed ALONE, while the other Pokemon can be taken out with a single prediction of using Fire Blast or something. You're using life orb huh? Stealth rock might be up too! What will the Sd set run? Outrage, ES and overheat? Beaten by heatran. Outrage, ES and brick break/EQ? Still outsped and beaten by heatran. Shandera too, if you run BB. Froslass is immune to ES, and can outspeed without a scarf. Ice beam and destiny bond say hi. Scarf latios is popular too. What can mixquaza do to him?

Powerful ray may be, but he can't do everything at once. Nor does he allow you to predict perfectly everytime.

A lot of his counters already exist. He'd fit right into the current OU metagame IMO. Worth a test at the very least.

If you can name me ONE counter to Rayquaza, I will applaud you. Shandera? Froslass? Gengar? Scarftran? Scarflatios? Cresselia? These may not be counters per se, but there are a lot of pokes without proper counters in OU.

Well, I must say you got the goal you wanted first which was discussion.
Swords Dance is checked by what Pokes that don't fall to the other sets? Predict wrong and Rayquaza's "counter" (of which it really truly has none since nothing can SWITCH IN without risking death or being set up on some way) will DIE HORRIBLY. Gengar dies to mixed. Shandera requires Hp Ice, Scarf Latios/Latios die to +2 Extremespeed and if you switch in on Swords Dance...Frosslass dies to mixed and Cresselia won't be having fun against Draco Meteor although Cresselia itself is one of the more reliable ones you mention. One. Everything else risks death switching in the wrong set. Although Cresselia can not be standard (or if not had been) Max Hp/Max Def since Cresselia is 2 hit koed by Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock.

And Swords Dance is usually Swords Dance/Dragon Claw/Extremespeed/Earthquake. The fact that you don't know EVERY Swords Dance Rayquaza would have Extremespeed undermines your argument because there are so many demonstrations of just how powerful a +2 Life Orb (unstabbed! Lol, let's bring Arceus!) Extremespeed is. And Scarftran might work against Swords Dance Rayquaza but even resisted +2 Extremespeed does nearly half it's health to it and Hp Ice is NEEDED to guarantee ohko on Rayquaza (average 72.36% Dragon Pulse so without Stealth Rock or three Life Orb recoils, it will survive.) Plus, most people no longer use Scarftran (Explosion removal kind of nerfed it against Blissey, heck even Life Orb only does 70~% so it would need to be weakened and Blissey can run Protect) and use Nitro Charge instead if they want speed. HEATRAN CAN NOT OUTRUN RAYQUAZA WITHOUT CHOICE SCARF SWITCHING IN (since we're assuming that Heatran switches in on Rayquaza) SINCE IT IS OUTRUN EVEN BY ADAMANT. Balloon Heatran could be viable...but since it tells them you have Balloon that might be a problem and again, Hp Ice is needed. And Shuca Berry...dies to +2 Earthquake. It is ANOTHER steel that without defensive investment can only switch in on Draco Meteor once...

And Wish/Rapid Spin Support will be VERY helpful. Always has been for things like Rayquaza. And you'd be surprised at the opportunities Rayquaza can switch in on like all those Mach Punches, Aqua Jets, boosting moves if they're sufficiently weakened enough to be afraid of Extremespeed, fighting moves, Skarmory (no Skarmory is going to sit on a Rayquaza that switches in and you can surprise them when you Swords Dance lol), Spiking Nattorei (watch out for Thunderwave), Swords Dance Doryuzu (Cloudy Skies knocks out Sand...), etc.

Oh, and Salamence's speed advantage is only moderate for mixed sets. 328 is only 20 pts higher than 308 and the only things that are going to fall in between that Rayquaza couldn't outrun and Salamence could (that aren't going to outrun both period) are +spd 95 base Pokes of which other than opposing Rayquaza's usually aren't going to be that used. Plus Rayquaza's special attack is WAY higher than +spd Nature Salamence (399>319 really makes a difference when steels can only switch in once on a resisted Draco Meteor) and it still has almost equivalent attack. Even on Dragon Dance, there is little difference between Jolly Rayquaza's and Salamence Adamant attack (399 vrs 405) and it hits hard. It requires a base 100 Choice Scarf (and there already has been discussion on how reliable Choice Scarf Jirachi Ice Punch is) and everything else...good luck if you don't outrun.

Dragonite is the only one that I consider a competition to Rayquaza and Rayquaza does mixed sets better, Dragonite can't do Swords Dance, and uh...Dragonite can't do Swords Dance Extremespeed (if it could, Dragonite would be Uber like a slightly minier but way bulkier Rayquaza). If you're running Life Orb, Multi-Scale won't work so Rayquaza is better there. But why compete when you could run them...together? Dragonite and Rayquaza may be 2 4X Ice weaknesses...but nothing is really going to stop them since due to Multi-Scale, Dragonite won't instantly die and needs and insanely strong/stabbed Ice attack to go down and most faster Choice Scarfers won't provide that and Rayquaza wears down all of Dragonite's counters...and vice versa. Nothing and I mean NOTHING will be able to stop Dragonite/Rayquaza rampages.

Rayquaza could also pull a mix Dance ala Salamence style. After a Draco Meteor, none of the Dragon Dance set's counters are going to be in very good health/would be dead when it's ready to go. Plus, Draco Meteor implies Fire Blast and the mixed set so Dragon Dance would be a complete surprise...

Gyrados is almost screwed by Nattorei nowadays making it much less powerful (still insanely strong and fun but as long as the opponent has Nattorei, it has some trouble) along with Wash Rotom. Rayquaza is WAY faster than Tyranitar and all I can say about that is...Mach Punch. One of the most common priority moves currently along with Bullet Punch and BRELOOM. Dragon Dance Tyranitar has also been weakened. Salamence as a Dragon Dancer is completely outclassed by Rayquaza as a Dragon Dancer in OU essentially since things that would outrun Rayquaza (choice scarf 100s) would still tie with Salamence and again that is what Magnezone/Shanderra are for (Jirachi, I'm looking at you). Plus Jolly Rayquaza Dragonite is far stronger than Jolly Salamence in damage dealing. I can't think of anything specific that'd require Rayquaza over Salamence to gurantee a ko but why would you use Salamence over it anyways in OU? Plus it could take out weakened steels more effeciently. Everything that outruns that is faster and everything that doesn't is outrun. It only really matters in Uber where that 100 base speed tie could make a difference against Palkia.

Sazandora has weaker power and again MACH PUNCH which Rayquaza takes 23.36% from (Breloom Technician Life Orb!) while Sazandora DIES. And Rayquaza is SUPERIOR to Sazandora mixed with higher attack, special attack, speed (how much speed is Sazandora going to run without Choice Scarf? It has such an awkward speed base), Brick Break, the ability to threaten Swords Dance/Dragon Dance as well (which Sazandora would kill for those moves), etc.

And Rocks never killed Rayquaza in Ubers and less so in OU because while Rocks may be a problem, nothing is going to safely switch in on Rayquaza without risking mixed, DD, Swords Dance, and the counters to one set are destroyed by another. His ability to block weather destroys weather sweepers and with Rapid Spin/Wish Support, it could really only be revenge killed for the most part. With Stealth Rock/Spike support of his own he destroys even things like Garchomp (Swords Dance Extremespeed). And Rocks is less of a problem compared to before. ULGAMOTH can still sweep people regardless of a 4X rock weakness and Ho-Oh is only really irritated by them (followed by a really, really strong attack which is necessary to ko). Rayquaza couldn't give a shit because by the time it would die, it would probably take 2, 3, 4 pokemon with it.

And speaking of Ho-Oh, do not say that we should also use it in OU.

 

[PK Gaming]

My problem with Rain is that the swift swimmers are nearly impossible to beat with support. You "cannot" beat a good rain team with Nattorei since they're usually packing zone. HP Fire takes it out and there is nothing you can do about it. (Nobody runs Shed Shell on Nattorei, leftovers is too important on a pokemon that's only method of healing is Leec Seed. This is not DW, so no Shanderra does not exist) I always thought 8 turns was hellish but in gen 5 it's infinite unless you have your own weather.

Even if HP Fire 10HKO's Nattorei (I think it was like a 4HKO in the rain) If it's gone you lose to rain. Playing Rain is like facing 5 Doryuuzu's, there is just no way you're going to beat Kingdra / Kabutops (one of the worst of the bunch) / Ludicolo / Manaphy. The former 3 have like 500+ speed... You aren't going to revenge any of them with conventional scarfers.

Rather than banning the abusers, I think that banning Politoad (Drizzle) is the most effective course of action.

IMO HP Fire is useless on Magnezone if you play rain its best to use HP Fighting since it does the same to Nattorei and can dent a TTar coming in after the kill to get free weather.

I prefer HP Fire. Ttar already takes a heavy amount of damage from Flash Cannon, and if rain isn't up I can quickly kill Nattorei.

 

[BurningMan]

Even if HP Fire 10HKO's Nattorei (I think it was like a 4HKO in the rain) If it's gone you lose to rain. Playing Rain is like facing 5 Doryuuzu's, there is just no way you're going to beat Kingdra / Kabutops (one of the worst of the bunch) / Ludicolo / Manaphy. The former 3 have like 500+ speed... You aren't going to revenge any of them with conventional scarfers. .

IMO HP Fire is useless on Magnezone if you play rain its best to use HP Fighting since it does the same to Nattorei and can dent a TTar coming in after the kill to get free weather.

 

[Schtizzel]

My problem with Rain is that the swift swimmers are nearly impossible to beat with support. You "cannot" beat a good rain team with Nattorei since they're usually packing zone. HP Fire takes it out and there is nothing you can do about it. (Nobody runs Shed Shell on Nattorei, leftovers is too important on a pokemon that's only method of healing is Leec Seed. This is not DW, so no Shanderra does not exist) I always thought 8 turns was hellish but in gen 5 it's infinite unless you have your own weather.

Even if HP Fire 10HKO's Nattorei (I think it was like a 4HKO in the rain) If it's gone you lose to rain. Playing Rain is like facing 5 Doryuuzu's, there is just no way you're going to beat Kingdra / Kabutops (one of the worst of the bunch) / Ludicolo / Manaphy. The former 3 have like 500+ speed... You aren't going to revenge any of them with conventional scarfers.

Rather than banning the abusers, I think that banning Politoad (Drizzle) is the most effective course of action.

Why is everybody complaining about Rain Teams. They aren't an instant GG for you. Since Gen 5 came out, I play a DrizzleToed RD Team not HO but Semi Stall.
If you play a RD Team in a very forward-looking way - eliminate Counters or weaken them and then Kingdra/Swift Swimmer can sweep - it will become a deadly Team just like very other Team. If you could play a RD Team in a careless way - sacrifice every team member like nothing/just attacking and use only 1 Attack Move - and win easily then DrizzleToed should be banned.
If the opponent just scouts and keeps his Pokis at a high HP stock, he can defeat a RD Team like every other Team. And this isn't so difficult.
DrizzleToed will come in at Turn 1 as a Lead or atleast between the first 5 Turns. From that time on, you have to keep your Counter healthy to defeat the RD Team.

In Gen 4 RD Teams weren't such a problem and nothing really changed about that. Now you just don't need a Turn to set-up the Rain. The Abuser are the same.

Now after 1 Month of playing Gen 5 erverybody feels like RD is the best team tactic. But it isn't...
Kill Politoed which isn't to difficult and bring out a Pokemon that learns a Weather bringing Move and then RD Teams can be defeated.
Hippo and Tar are such common pokemon which can be incorporated in every Team.
RD Teams are just like Shanderas imo. Everybody is complaining about them but no one has a good way to handle these problems.
Shandera is in nearly every second team. It can kill half of the metagame Pokis but it can't do more than this. It can't come-in several times because of SR damage.
Not everybody uses a RD Team. If everybody uses a RD Team than Politoed must be banned.
It's not like that RD Teams haven't any Counter Teams. TSpikes-Stall-Teams can defeat them easily.

 

[RocketSurgery]

In Gen 4 RD Teams weren't such a problem and nothing really changed about that. Now you just don't need a Turn to set-up the Rain. The Abuser are the same.

That's really not what people are complaining about. The (perceived) problem with weather teams is that the weather is permanent, which was only the case for sandstorm and hail previously. That means the only way to turn off your foe's weather is to have poli/ninetales/ttar/hippo/snow or pokemon with one of the weather changing moves. It's either that or outplay the foe in a weather which gives them an advantage. If you use a weather inducer, you're probably going to build your team around them because its harder have team synergy with pokemon that don't abuse that weather, or you have to use one or more move slots so that you can change the weather. If you can't change the weather, your foe has an advantage over you the whole match, and in the case of rain this advantage is perceived to be rather big due to many fast and strong rain sweepers or stallers.

 

[Venser]

imo hold off on weather abusers until the metagame is a little more settled and we have banned the obvious suspects like darkrai, inconsistent

Fix'd. I don't think Shaymin is ban-worthy yet. Same with Deoxys-_, it's pretty manageable.

 

[Gabe]

JTSwift, I am done discussing Rayquaza. Rayquaza is an Uber Pokemon through and through. The notion that it can be in the OU tier is ludicrous.

 

[CRC]

Its honestly very easy to see who has what ranking. I don't understand why it couldn't just be the top 20 people on the ladder instead an arbitrary number.

And it is also a lot easier to abuse sandstorm to win than abusing 4th gen ubers...

 

[Chou Toshio]

imo hold off on weather abusers until the metagame is a little more settled and we have banned the obvious suspects like darkrai, skymin, deo-a, inconsistent

Here's a smart man

 

[sax king]

imo hold off on weather abusers until the metagame is a little more settled and we have banned the obvious suspects like darkrai, skymin, deo-a, inconsistent

I completely agree, that the weather abusers shouldn't be our top discussion priority and we need to finalize our decisions on pokemon like Deo-a (ban), skymin (no ban), and darkrai (no ban). The only problem is actually seeing them perform. The metagame is so dominated by weather that I really haven't seen any of these pokemon. I really can't make a decision without really seeing what each of these pokemon are like, and I can't really see them due to the huge weather outburst. It's impossible to make a decision without having knowledge of the topic, so I say that we make a decision about weather and settle the questionable pokemon next round.
Except for Inconsistent. Ban that now.

 

[Baldafor]

I want to see the stats before we consider a ban on anything. If things are really as broken as they appear, it will be shown in the usage statistics after a few months.

I am also really confused about the Pokemon Lab situation. Why are we using some other sites' simulator instead of our own?

 

[Venser]

I want to see the stats before we consider a ban on anything. If things are really as broken as they appear, it will be shown in the usage statistics after a few months.

I am also really confused about the Pokemon Lab situation. Why are we using some other sites' simulator instead of our own?

Because Pokemon Lab is no longer our own.


With the rating system as fucked up as it is right now, is there any chance of seeing an extension in the voting date?

 

[GHU Jockmaster]

The only broken Pokemon in my opinion are Manaphy and Inconsistent users. Manaphy, especially in the Rain, is bulky enough to be an almost unstoppable force. If a team doesn't have a specialized "Manaphy counter", for me at least, there is no way to stop it. You can't status it, it's near impossible to OHKO without crits, and when it runs rest its hard to even THKO. There is just no balance with the Pokemon as long as Rain is around.

Rain isn't the problem though. There are multiples of ways to counter weather, but even WITHOUT Rain Manaphy is simply a beast (not to mention nobody runs it without Rain). The only way to balance the weather effect Rain itself is to prevent the use of Manaphy.

Also I'm pretty sure everyone understands why Inconsistent should be banned. It takes the skill and prediction out of the metagame and brings everything down to sheer luck. Not a very conducive ability to competition.

On another note, Deoxys (all forms), Dory, Skymin, and DroughtTales/DrizzleToad, through my personal experience on the ladder, are all not game-breaking.

Deoxys S, A, and N might be quick, hard-hitting Pokemon, but none of them can take a hit very well at all. Priority, Scarf, and Mischevious Heart all are commonly carried things that easily counter those forms. And D is just a good wall with a bad defensive typing.

Dory is extremely powerful in Sand, I must admit, but he is very easily countered. As with the Deoxys family, priority eats this guy alive, as does Mischevious Heart. Also if he isn't SDing, many Pokes can simply take a hit then throw a special Water attack or Fighting attack. And if all else fails...change the weather...

Skymin is a quick, hard-hitting sp. sweeper with mediocre typing and mediocre defenses. Seed Flare might hurt, but so many types resist grass. Nattorei alone can usually wall this guy with Gyro Ball. And the flinchax aren't anything to put into the argument because they aren't any different than Jirachi or Togekiss, who are both unarguably OU.

And the weather users...are just weather users. Weather is part of the game, and with this new Generation it has become and integral part of the metagame (which I feel makes things more interesting). Rain and Sun needed perma-users to even the scene. As I said before, if you don't like the weather, change it. I believe once this generation is ironed out, every team will have a member with some sort of weather move, and at that point nobody will complain about the weather again. the weather will just become a part of every match.

 

[NGC-2024]

Skymin is a quick, hard-hitting sp. sweeper with mediocre typing and mediocre defenses. Seed Flare might hurt, but so many types resist grass. Nattorei alone can usually wall this guy with Gyro Ball. And the flinchax aren't anything to put into the argument because they aren't any different than Jirachi or Togekiss, who are both unarguably OU.

But these guys can't lower your Special Defense 80% of the time with a 120 STAB move

 

[idiotfrommars]

But these guys can't lower your Special Defense 80% of the time with a 120 STAB move

Which is why I find Skymin to be Uber. Somebody a few users up suggested Nattorei as a counter which after SpD drop by Seed Flare is easily KO'd by Air Slash. Its sub sets are deadly and it is able to get passed most of its counters through drops and hax. And if it is running scarf, then it can outspeed even Doryuuzu and is almost the perfect revenge killer minus the SR weakness. Skymin is a beast and in my mind is on the threshold of Uberness and needs to be at least looked at and seriously tested.

I also believe that we should ban inconsistent right now. I was playing around with it the other day and it was ridiculous how easy it was too win. Their is no doubt in my mind that this should be banned, the sooner the better.