np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[alphatron]

Mew can just use Low kick with very little attack investment seeing as how he learns that too.

 

[Lee]

It should be noted that if Octillery uses Toxic on a Synchronise Pokemon, he will only recieve regular poison, not bad poison. That's still seriously gonna cramp his style but, assuming Leftovers and non-damaging weather, he's only losing 6% of his health per turn. Basically, he'll still have plenty of time to fuck with your team even moreso when you consider that no Octillery user is going to start pinging Toxic about until he has all the boosts he need - it would be more fruitful for him to use Sub/Protect.

 

[Kiorein]

It should be noted that if Octillery uses Toxic on a Synchronise Pokemon, he will only recieve regular poison, not bad poison. That's still seriously gonna cramp his style but, assuming Leftovers and non-damaging weather, he's only losing 6% of his health per turn. Basically, he'll still have plenty of time to fuck with your team even moreso when you consider that no Octillery user is going to start pinging Toxic about until he has all the boosts he need - it would be more fruitful for him to use Sub/Protect.

I thought somebody here confirmed that the mechanics changed, was this a mistake?

 

[Arc Tech]

Deoxys a might 1-2 HKO many but psycho boost isnt as broken insane OMG as everyone point it to be. To be exact, stall mew (dude i love this bitch) isnt 2HKO factoring SR and can heal off the damage. Non orb superpower has chance to not OHKO bliss too. So boost power isnt exactly why hes broken
If someone reason his brokeness its going to be his mixed stats and movepool although movepool argument is pointless seeing most just use same move over and over again.
(ES Super T bolt or Ball Boost) AND ES isnt as powerul as we thought off to sadly.

Yeah, Deoxys-a isn't nearly as good as I thought it would be. If it doesn't ohko, it dies. It cannot really afford to predict too much either. And psycho boost, when it actually hits (90% accuracy has screwed me over many a time), doesn't even ohko a burungeru- and since he can't afford to predict too much, its not too hard to get bungy in on a superpower. He extreme frailness is a very major flaw.

 

[CanadiEntei]

Get darkrai,inconsistent & shaymin out of there.

Inconsistant may be 'cheap' but that is why Porygon-2 and Gardevoir have their uses. As does such moves as Role Play, Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, Simple Beam, Make Friends. Trick Room, Heal Block, Imprison, Embargo, and Magic Room are examples of options available to slow their hopes. Never miss moves such as an Aura Sphere or Magical Leaf can also hit them. Snatch perhaps? Surf, Toxic, Substitute, and Protect are common moves on them. Water and poison immunties and/or resistance can be used. So can the Synchronize and Unaware abilities. Clear Smog, from the new mushroom Pokemon, can phaze. Poliwrath can 'combo' Mind Reader & Overhead Throw.

Shaymin and Skymin are two different 'threats'. Shaymin's Natural Cure and lack of Serene Grace flinching are not near as large sucking as Sky Shaymin. Sky Shaymin going somewhere else would be nice. Shaymin is manage able. Serene Grace'd Seed Flare is just nasty.

I enjoy Darkrai. Prefer its physical sets myself as Quick Attack after a SD is nice. Sleep Clause is Sleep Clause. There are more Pokemon immune to Dark Void now that Vital Spirit has been given to more Pokemon. Breloom gets Technician. Lucario gets Nasty Plot for Vacuum Waves and Aura Sphere's. Not to mention the uses for Sleep Talk. There are other options for it than those used by 'everyone' or what are nastiest. Toxic and Thunder Wave for example.

 

[Philip7086]

It should be noted that if Octillery uses Toxic on a Synchronise Pokemon, he will only recieve regular poison, not bad poison. That's still seriously gonna cramp his style but, assuming Leftovers and non-damaging weather, he's only losing 6% of his health per turn. Basically, he'll still have plenty of time to fuck with your team even moreso when you consider that no Octillery user is going to start pinging Toxic about until he has all the boosts he need - it would be more fruitful for him to use Sub/Protect.

I thought somebody here confirmed that the mechanics changed, was this a mistake?

From the research thread:

Confirmed Synchronize now afflicts the attacker with Toxic poison instead of regular poison, if the Synchronize Pokemon is poisoned by Toxic\Poison Fang. (Team Rocket Elite)

 

[brunch]

yeah.. ive pretty much been playing rapidly and we really need to remove those cheap game mechanics asap. Inconsistent is one retarded ability honestly.. Lol

 

[Arc Tech]

Inconsistant may be 'cheap' but that is why Porygon-2 and Gardevoir have their uses. As does such moves as Role Play, Worry Seed, Gastro Acid, Skill Swap, Simple Beam, Make Friends. Trick Room, Heal Block, Imprison, Embargo, and Magic Room are examples of options available to slow their hopes. Never miss moves such as an Aura Sphere or Magical Leaf can also hit them. Snatch perhaps? Surf, Toxic, Substitute, and Protect are common moves on them. Water and poison immunties and/or resistance can be used. So can the Synchronize and Unaware abilities. Clear Smog, from the new mushroom Pokemon, can phaze. Poliwrath can 'combo' Mind Reader & Overhead Throw.

Trace users usually do not carry protect or substitute (and it lowers their utility against non-inconsistenters when they do), and with no sub they are easily poisoned by octillery and killed. Same goes for role play, but to an even greater extent since you have to use a moveslot for it.

Trickroom through magic room don't stop it- really dont have much of any impact on it.
Nevermiss moves are too weak in general, and even aura sphere against octillery especially since they can get defensive boosts.
Snatch can only stop sub, it cant stop inconsistent. Plus then they get to attack you.
Unaware users get toxic stalled.
Mind reader and lock on can miss (or did that get changed? I forgot) and overhead throw/dragon tail is blocked by substitute (well it still takes damage, no switch).
Worry seed through make friends: Limited users and utility or blocked by subs.
Clear smog has a very limited user pool, and still leaves them with a sub, more likely then not, so they can just keep attacking you. Only mushy has recovery (I think), and it gets screwed by ice beam.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Yeah, Deoxys-a isn't nearly as good as I thought it would be. If it doesn't ohko, it dies. It cannot really afford to predict too much either. And psycho boost, when it actually hits (90% accuracy has screwed me over many a time), doesn't even ohko a burungeru- and since he can't afford to predict too much, its not too hard to get bungy in on a superpower. He extreme frailness is a very major flaw.

Umm, prediction and taking risks is the only way you actually can really play Deoxys in the end. If you want a safe pokemon, you just simply can't use him because Deoxys is a high risk-possibly very high reward pokemon. It's either win, switch out and come in when something dies, or die. And with those defenses, playing safe WILL cause him to die. If you suck at prediction, you definitely shouldn't use it because playing Deoxys is like playing an aggro risky style of chess. It gives high momentum but if you falter for a single second, it will collapse.

But if used correctly, he will DESTROY things. And it isn't that hard to predict obvious switchins to a Dark or Steel/Psychic from Psycho Boost if they have any, especially when you have Team viewer that lets you see the opposing team. It isn't like last gen where you would have to play blind and Deoxys predictions would really need to be spot on when they switch in darks/steels/etc. But his power is such he can 1-2 hit ko many of those anyways.

Psycho Boost misses would suck. You can't predict those. But Psycho Boosts do MASSIVE damage to Burungeru and you 2 hit ko. Or kill it with something else. And if it chooses to carry Shadow Ball (probably least useful last move when it has Icebeam/Hp Fire/Thunder(bolt) but it still hits Latios and Burungeru), Burungeru won't be feeling to good.

 

[Arc Tech]

Umm, prediction and taking risks is the only way you actually can really play Deoxys in the end. If you want a safe pokemon, you just simply can't use him because Deoxys is a high risk-possibly very high reward pokemon. It's either win, switch out and come in when something dies, or die. And with those defenses, playing safe WILL cause him to die. If you suck at prediction, you definitely shouldn't use it because playing Deoxys is like playing an aggro risky style of chess. It gives high momentum but if you falter for a single second, it will collapse.

But if used correctly, he will DESTROY things. And it isn't that hard to predict obvious switchins to a Dark or Steel/Psychic from Psycho Boost if they have any, especially when you have Team viewer that lets you see the opposing team. It isn't like last gen where you would have to play blind and Deoxys predictions would really need to be spot on when they switch in darks/steels/etc. But his power is such he can 1-2 hit ko many of those anyways.

Psycho Boost misses would suck. You can't predict those. But Psycho Boosts do MASSIVE damage to Burungeru and you 2 hit ko. Or kill it with something else. And if it chooses to carry Shadow Ball (probably least useful last move when it has Icebeam/Hp Fire/Thunder(bolt) but it still hits Latios and Burungeru), Burungeru won't be feeling to good.

I'm actually quite good at prediction (just ask all the hp-fire'd scizors and nattys and all the choice scarf manaphy's), it's just that deoxys is too much risk, not enough reward- for example, not ohko-ing burungeru. It's biggest problem is that it's main moves (psycho-boost, superpower, extremespeed) all have immunities.

I typically don't try to predict with him since oftentimes one of their important immunities is asleep (mostly burungeru), and they usually let it die anyway and then revenge me, or they quite simply don't have them and will have to revenge kill deoxys.

 

[sqwat500]

(17:23:46) +RankingBot: Your rank in Dream World OU is 1478/5823!



Ok, I'd like to nominate Skymin for Ubers.
Here's a list of pokemon that outspeed Skymin by base stats
Electrode
Aerodactyl
Jolteon
Mewtwo
Crobat
Ninjask
Each Deoxys bar defense
Agirudaa
Meloetta-Step

Now, heres the same list, removing Ubers
Electrode-Useage stats on the pokemon online server tier "wifi"-# 216, 0.35 %
Aerodactyl-#63, 3.22 %
Jolteon-# 39, 4.81 %
Crobat-# 73, 2.31 %
Ninjask-# 70, 2.41 %
Agirudaa-# 141 , 0.89 %


Any pokemon that outspeeds Skymin, is verry uncommon, bar jolteon (who only appears in 4.82% of battles, rounded up to 5% is about 1 in every twenty battles). Anything that dosent resist flying (air slash), grass(seed flare), and ice(common HP type)/fire(common HP type)/ground (earth power) will be scared to switch into skymin, in fear of being outsped and, being hammered by a possibly super effective attack (even normal effective will hurt), and quite possibly being KO'ed. Despite all this, the most annoying thing about skymin is air slash. The 60% flinch rate is incredibly annoying, and almost gaurentees two hits on any pokemon (one flinch, one regular). Your pokemon go down without even being able to fight back. Seed flare is also quite annoying, as it lowers your opponents special defense, making skymin hit that much harder. I feel skymin is too overpowrered for OU, and feel it should be put into ubers.

Lets ban things that should be uber now (skymin, darkrai) and worry about weather, wobbafett, and the luck-necisary inconsistant later

 

[NC]

What you are describing, my friend, is a tautological extreme. Certain risk management techniques can be incorporated into gameplay to make certain degrees of hax surmountable. In the case of Inconsistent, the majority of these techniques are either temporary or impractical. Little By Little and Sacred Sword can be used to hit through defensive boosts, but have limited distribution and do not cancel offensive or speed boosts. Roar and Whirlwind can phaze them, but have no effect if it's the last Pokemon, not to mention the Pokemon using it can be KOed before it uses the move. Taunt prevents subbing, and Protect, but neither attacks nor boosts. Encore only lasts three turns and does not break an active Substitute.

As you can see, most methods of preventing the Inconsistent user from setting up are impractical. Your only real chance is hoping the Inconsistent user makes a crippling mistake, such as bad prediction, misjudging an opportunity to set up, or a combination of strategies that would require an entire metagame's worth of effort to prevent. In a theoretical sense, the player has no real control over the battle and very little options to prevent the Inconsistent user from setting up in the context of various metagame-viable strategies.

I am not arguing with the (probable) ban of inconsistent. I completely agree with you and also believe it should be banned because it is too difficult to stop, making it overpowered. Not because of anything to do with skill, luck, uncompetitiveness, or anything of the like.

Yeah, so go ahead and read SJCrew's post (re-reading a few times so it'll sink in), and realize that Inconsistent doesn't take SOME of the battle out of the player's hands . . .

It takes ALL of the battle out of the player's hands (essentially).

Just like 4th gen tickle wobb :D

Honestly, how would you feel if a mod came into a battle in the middle of a game and said, "Alright, Imma flip a coin, and whoever gets it, wins the game." Sure the odds are "fair" but would you agree that it's good for competitive pokemon? Fuck no. That is essentially the issue with Inconsistent.

Again, I agree with you about the extreme effects inconsistent can have, but this is an exaggeration. I haven't actually used it myself much, but in my experiences, it was very rare that the ENTIRE battle was completely decided by the inconsistent pokemon. The same thing could be said about critical hits. For example, your team could only have one counter to some obscure threat, it critical hits your counter and is able to sweep you. This also CAN take the entire game out of the player's hands, but likely in most cases it won't (note: please ignore the fact that this could be a result of poor team-making, it is not relevant to my point).

Do you build your team to activate that Quick Claw your Snorlax is holding, or to make your Ulgamoth inflict the Burn stats on everything with Flamethrower?

So if luck is intended, it is bad but if it "just happens" then it is OK? What if I told you I fully intend to make you flinch with my scarf togekiss or that I fully intend to make you miss with my brightpowder, sand veil garchomp?



On a different note:
@Phillip7086- I completely understand with this being the first suspect test, as it is our first time using Pokemon Online, but I would appreciate there being a clear, well-defined rating requirement in the future given before and not after the test to eliminate any subjectivity on deciding who gets to vote.

 

[capefeather]

I guess Inconsistent isn't a problem of power or luck alone but both together. It's so heavily luck-based it makes the claused moves look tame, and it's powerful enough that what's already pretty close to the edge goes way over in terms of ruining games containing it.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Or even what wan't at the edge before. Nobody looked at Octillery in Gen 4, and now you pretty much need a counter for it...but oh wait! It HAS NO COUNTERS.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Again, I agree with you about the extreme effects inconsistent can have, but this is an exaggeration. I haven't actually used it myself much, but in my experiences, it was very rare that the ENTIRE battle was completely decided by the inconsistent pokemon. The same thing could be said about critical hits. For example, your team could only have one counter to some obscure threat, it critical hits your counter and is able to sweep you. This also CAN take the entire game out of the player's hands, but likely in most cases it won't (note: please ignore the fact that this could be a result of poor team-making, it is not relevant to my point).

I didn't mean the entire duration of the battle, but while the Inconsistent pokemon on the field, the entire battle is completely controlled by the outcome of Inconsistent, and it has enough control to potentially dictate the entire outcome of the game.

To me, that's definitely extreme enough to ban it under grounds of being "non-competitive." regardless of actual performance-- even if the result of inconsistent stall fests were inconsistent pokemon losing 70% of the time, I would still say that they should be banned based on the degree to which they take the game away from strategic maneuvering (out of the player's hands).

It's a whole different scope of control than "oh, lol, a crit."

 

[zapzap29]

The problem with Inconsistent is that the odds of pulling a useful boost are in the user's favor. For example, an Octillery user usually wants evasion, speed, and special attack boosts. There is a 3/7 chance that the user will get one of these boosts. Also, if you're trying to survive an opponent's attack you either want speed, evasion, defense, or special defense. That's still a 3/7 chance that you're going to get one of those boosts. If you get any of those boosts you're basically guaranteed to survive. If the user gets a speed boost they can sub-protect to stack more boosts. If they get a defense or sp defense boost they can survive any hit the opponent throws at them and then proceed to sub protect. Also, the odds that the abuser will get the boost they need increases exponentially over time. With Inconsistent you have to kill the user within a few turns or else it's the Inconsistent user's game. Also, if they gain the right boost on the first turn it becomes near impossible to kill the Inconsistent user.

Inconsistent makes the game entirely based on luck and that is not conducive to a competitive metagame.

 

[Stylish Interval]

My views on everything summed up since I began playing a few days ago ...

teams i used in order to show opinions and shit

Basically, I went into this around Wednesday using a random SS team I'd throw together. I'd read that Dory was pretty good and Chou (if you don't mind me addressing you like that!) had mentioned that Politoed was beat by CB Tar, so that's where I started. Roobushin to check others and Nattorei for Rain. Second team was a Rain team that I built yesterday and used Deo A on after reading about how good it was when used properly. I used it pretty well I guess but idk. So that's that kthx.

Here's how I see everything, starting with Deoxys-A: Deoxys-A is ridiculous. I've been running Rash @ LO [Ice Beam / Psycho Shock / Thunder / SuperPower] and I can't count the number of times it's switched in to revenge something and done it successfully. Sometimes, like SJCrew I think, I just let something else die so I could get it in to get a kill or two. Often two. It basically hits everything in the metagame for ridiculous amounts of damage. If it went to Ubers, I think the metagame would be better based on my use with it ... although I haven't really seen many other people use it successfully (aka keeping it in for more than a one-for-one exchange).

Doryuzuu ... not really as big of a threat as I'd read / heard about. Over the course of the week more Dory counters / checks were popping up and I was having more trouble sweeping with it. Roobushin is everywhere simply because of how good it is; Gliscor too ... it's like everyone decided Gliscor was the most ultimate Pokemon all of a sudden haha; and OTR Bronzong, as well as other variants (notably DS Bronzong) began to show up too ... I assume at the will of the posters in this thread. I think Bologo and someone else mentioned it's viability (and I believe Bologo invented the set too last gen? maybe not...idr). Doryuzuu is strong but not game-breaking strong like Deoxys-A is right now, in my opinion. I hope it stays around for another test ... especially since

Politoed is setting up rain everywhere. On my rain team I took full advantage of two Pokemon: Specs Kingdra and CM Manaphy. Specs Kingdra I've been using since Bologo brought it up in Stage 3-4 (I think) when discussing Specs Latias. It's always been a monster in my eyes, but with Rain boosting it it's crazy! (Been using the 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe [Jolly DDTar] for a while, can't be bothered to come up with any other sets) But anyway Kingdra isn't really a suspect atm as much as I think Politoed is. Rain was already a ridiculous powerhouse. All I did was throw Manaphy + Kingdra with Politoed + Deo-A and Roobushin / Gliscor for Dory checks and I had pretty good success (peaking at 1323 at one point...sadly not 1400). Politoed I'd keep for another round although I really hate the dominance of rain right now. Infinite Rain means ridiculously fast swift-swimmers. It's like an infinite heavy offense.

Darkrai is a Pokemon I've had the pleasure of meeting a few times and with each one I've hated it more. Dark Void is a pain in the ass =/ Really, I hate having to give up one Pokemon and then take on Darkrai by itself. But I have always had Roobushin to force it out, sometimes I just revenge kill it. I have mixed feelings about it since I've only played it probably in 1/8 of my matches, so I have no really strong opinion on it besides ... Sleep is a douchebag.

Skymin needs to go. Bronzong / Nattorei both have lost to flinchhax for me. Latias has lost to flinchax. One of my Blisseys went down to SpD drop + flinchhax. I hate having to try and switch in on Seed Flare only to meet an ugly "[Pokemon]'s Special Defense dropped sharply!" followed by "[Pokemon] flinched! or just being straight up KOed. Ugh. Not to mention the sub-seeder set. Once it gets going it's hard to stop. I used it at one point and it netted me a bunch of kills. If it weakens you enough it can just go straight for the kill. And the kill is usually their Skymin counter and that opens up another kill or two for Skymin. I think the metagame would be better without this one.

On Sun teams.... I haven't faced any since the bottom of the ladder, but SubSeeders were annoying there. No real opinion.

So that's about all I have. I would mention Latios but he hasn't been overwhelming with me using him and no one has really overwhelmed me with him, so I figure it's a good a time as any to keep testing him. I just think that Deo-A and Skymin (also Inconsistent XD) need to leave in order to create a better functioning metagame to test in. With them out of the way I think more fluid and win-consistent teams can be built and from there would come a larger general consensus on bans and thoughts regarding bans. I don't know though, that's just what I think after this testing period.

Just thought I'd try and throw in a little influence on the 40 or so that hit 1400 by tonight that I saw. Hope you guys vote well and do our metagame justice!

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Did everyone forget about Doryuuzu? Without opposing weather, Hippowdon (Balloon beats it), Breloom, or Roobushin (Chople beats them), it's incredibly difficult to deal with for both stall and offensive teams due to its amazing power and speed. I don't have time to write up a good post here, but I do want the nominees to remember the mole.

 

[Gabe]

Oh god please bad these:

Shaymin-S

Manaphy

Darkrai

 

[SlimMan]

Did everyone forget about Doryuuzu? Without opposing weather, Hippowdon (Balloon beats it), Breloom, or Roobushin (Chople beats them), it's incredibly difficult to deal with for both stall and offensive teams due to its amazing power and speed. I don't have time to write up a good post here, but I do want the nominees to remember the mole.

Everyone is a nominee. The OP says that anyone can nominate, but only certified people can vote.

I for one don't think that the mole is so broken. But you're free to nom it if you so choose. Especially because now that it's 12:07 AM EST, the nomination period has BEGUN!

edit: Here are mine.

Manaphy: I don't think that rain itself is broken. Despite the carnage that Kingdra can bring, physical variants can be walled by a number of pokemon, including the ever-common Nattorei. Special variants lack perfect counters, but their inability to set up hinders them. And other than Kingdra, what Swift Swimmer is even questionable? I say that it is not rain which is broken, but Manaphy.

Skymin: There is no pokemon which can answer to Skymin. Even revenge-killing becomes near-impossible with a good player. But this is not like with Shuckle. Skymin is capable of flinching or lowering the stats of every pokemon which can threaten it until they are overwhelmed. If it's an offensive threat, the 120 base Sp Atk can often score a quick KO. On defensive threats, a 60% flinch chance mixed with -2 Sp Def can finish them off quickly enough. The difference between Skymin and other Sene Grace pokemon is this: it's more powerful than all of them, faster, and has the move called Seed Flare in combination. It's simply too much for this metagame to handle.

Darkrai: Darkrai forces you to sac a pokemon when it comes into play, no matter whether it switches into a counter or not. You have to decide which of your pokemon you want to become death fodder via Dark Void. And then you must immediately switch again, to prevent being set up on. It'll either get a free +2 or a free Sub. At which point it can wreak havoc. It is far superior to Breloom, having a base speed of 125. This allows it to be revenged much less easily. Darkrai is an auto-KO whe it appears, even if you build your team with it in mind. No more Darkrai.

Inconsistent: This ability means that with one free turn, you can mess up an entire match. If you get one turn to Sub, then you can Protet/Sub every turn for a total of 15 turns, assuming it carries Leftovers. This results in a pokemon with a net stat gain of +15. It can and will sweep your team at that point. Not to mention the turns you can add to the original 15, courtesy of Evasion boosts. It is entirely based on luck and removes all skill from a match. Either you get lucky and it gets the worst boosts 2-3 times in a row, or you carry some absurd pokemon for the sole purpose of PP stalling it out. Inconsistent is broken, and that's all I have to say about that.

Wobbuffet was a tough choice for me. I chose not to nominate it due to the nerf of Encore. But we'll see how it goes in R2.

 

[JSND]

Okay its just for me but :

Darkrai : set worth mention is the sub sleep 2 attack set. Its so hard to face it reliably seeing it could sleep, sub, wreak havoc, done. the fact that sub is the ebst move in the game(one of) doesnt hellp when darkrai ease it use even more.

Skymin : haventface many lately need checking more but his 127 speed is....... ARGH

Manaphy : fast boost but 100 speed able me to revenge with randorusu. As a bonus rando can beat politoed who try to switch in. His brute force is insane tho and he have the best typing in the game too.

Deo-A/N : so frail and Boost isnt THAT kind of powerful as i have said. It depens on set too since most playe use Super(blissey) and ES(priority that ACTUALY USELESS) they only have 2 slot left for boost(used on all) and shadow or bolt usualy. basically i use burn tactics and bait es to wall a bit with bliss THEN set up my terra. Happen in many match. Also dory outspeed in SS(and ss is harder to stop than just saying)
Interesting fact is dragonite have been able to beat it in my game AND we know how good dnite is.

Dory : maybe not boken but his influent on the meta is a lot. Before, you might wont use base 130 with scarf. NOW it became reasonable. He also deceptively quite bulky seeing he actualy survive full roob mach punch(gave me victory by making my opponent think that mach punch OHKO with that "fake" high 140 base against doy fake frailness and weakening it then EQ them countless time) making him quite threatening.

Inconsistent : INSTEAD of saying omg broken over and over agaiin with only luck luck luck crap as an excuse for your own crap lets see the bigger picture. The fact its luck based is huge BUT i wont argue about this one. The pokemon pool is the one instead.
In practic only Octilerry and Bibarel and maybe Glalie that is broken while the prevos not and its arguable on Smeargle. Even with boost etc, the fact that theyre fragile remains. Its need to note that even AMONG them, only 1 not weak to aura sphere and sphere is a good move by itself. And in the uber tier theyre not as broken seeing AS user is a lot, have huge power and nice by itself. Also they have pressure. THAT said only Octilerry that really need a ban checking alongside the other 2. Smeargle and the prevos defense is like wet paper making even many boost no as crazy and they have a max of 800 attack with full investment. Seeing you invest in speed, your going to be moderate bulky and weak or moderate stong and paper defenses unlike say octilerry with 105 attacking stats and 75 defense. In fact, octi might have been OU in previous gen given he has higher speed with his movepool(mini kyogre ? nice). Glalie is weak to SR and Spikesnerable making it more manageable and Bullet punch say hi. While bibarel weak to as. BUT they have good point in that they have reasonable stats AND or typing (water normal FTW)

Therefore my nomination :

Deoxys form (every form due to magic mirror)
Skymin
Doryuuzu(arguable since he bring massive power to SS)
Randorusu(same as Dory)
Manaphy
Darkrai
Inconsistent Octillery

 

[November Blue]

Is it too late to ladder now?

Oh right, I can nominate.

Darkrai
Inconsistent


That's it. I've been using skymin and manaphy extensively, and both are manageable. Skymin is shot down by paralysis so easily it's laughable. Manaphy doesn't live up to the hype, and can be checked by loads of stuff. Darkrai however, is too strong with dark void. The sub + 2 attacks set really fucks with your opponent.

I think that we need to let the metagame develop. When the next "garchomp" arises, make it a suspect, but for now everything seems balanced.

 

[711Joshua]

Does no one run Azumarill?

252 Atk
Huge Power
Choice Band
Aqua Jet = 99% damage to a 252 HP Doryuuzu.


When I first started playing Gen 5 on PO I had a huge problem with Doryuuzu (In sand, after a Swords Dance) and Roobushin. I thought they were both broken because I always found myself being swept by the both of them.

They can both be trouble to deal with sometimes, but they are not worthy of being banned. That's all I have to say on that matter.


I just recently started running Deoxys-A.

Deoxys-A @ Choice Scarf Trait: Pressure
EVs: 128 Atk / 252 SAtk / 128 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Superpower
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt


Speed stat comes out to at 404. After Scarf...606. 606 speed out speeds max speed Doryuuzu in the sand. 606 speed outspeeds max speed Kindra, Kabutops, Qwilfish and Ludicolo in the Rain. Of course, of the names mentioned, only Kindra, Kabutops and Doryuuzu were threats.


I've also used this EV spread with Deoxys-N.



Why am I posting all of this....
I suppose I am saying Deoxys, if not Attack form, Deoxys makes a good revenge killer for the Pokemon listed above.




Pokemon I believe should be banned.


Deoxys-A. Even though it is extremely frail, its far too powerful for someone who is not afraid to predict. Psycho Boost is going to dent anything, if not kill it, that does not resist. Given its incredible attack/Sp.A stat, it makes for a great mixed attacker.



Ice Beam / T-bolt / Psycho Boost / Super Power and so on.


I wont mind Deoxys-A not being banned. I run it on my team and I also run CB Scizor. If Deoxys is not a lead, its probably not sashed. On the topic of Priority, Huge Power Azumarill makes for a great revenge killer.




Manaphy. I am going to start by saying, I don't believe Manaphy is broken outside of Rain. Without Hydration, even with +3 from Tail Glow, getting off a Toxic or a T-wave would make worlds of difference.




As far as weather teams go.

By far, from my experience, Rain Dance teams (with or without manaphy) have been the toughest to beat of the three weather teams. With that being said, I don't believe Drizzle and Drought should be banned. Even though I'll never pick up a weather team (maybe sand) I find having Drizzle and Drought outside of ubers is a nice new touch to the metagame.

​

 

[Behatryce]

I've been playing competitively for awhile now but I never got involved with the forums despite playing on shoddy with smogonites. I'd like to get somewhat involved for the shaping of the gen 5 metagame. We have 55 pages of arguments, so I hardly feel the need to restate them for each pokemon, so I'll list my nominations from my experiences of playing this iteration of the metagame.
Please Ban Now Tier (Nominations for banning)
Inconsistent
Shaymin-S
Darkrai
Manaphy


Close to Ban Tier (They probably deserve another round of testing...barely)
Latios
Wobuffet
Deoxys

Questionables Tier (At least 1 more round of testing probably more)
Kingdra
Doryuzuu
Latias
Mew

 

[Arc Tech]

To everyone nominating Doryuuzu:

He has plenty of checks and counters (especially with balloon, and many have great utility for the balloon as well- for example, heatran and terakion). Sandslash only loses to a few more pokemon than he does, the only notable one being Doryuuzu himself (ironically enough). (Well, scarf skymin and darkrai, but one is getting the banhammer for sure, the other is borderline, and neither are too common sets).