Stealth Rock Discussion

[Zebstrika]

My point is Skarmory was overcentralizing, but not broken. It was probably the best spiker, and many people wanted spikes, the only hazard. Therefore, people used Skarmory.

Stealth Rock is overcentralizing. Saying that it brings crap like Rapid Spin, Xatu/Espeon, etc. into play (which a few have) doesn't define exactly how broken it is.

 

[Pentao]

Actually Rapid Spin isn't THAT awful of a move. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are also prevalent enough to warrant usage, furthermore, it also can be used to get rid of Leech Seed IIRC, though that's more of a minor benefit to it.

But the fact is, you CAN have a team without a spinner and win, even if the foe gets Stealth Rocks up. Stealth Rocks do not guarantee victory by any means, it only makes victory more accessible. If you take out SR from the metagame, it's really easy to anticipate what will follow, a rise in Spikes usage, sandstorm usage, and of course, Focus Sash usage. The fact is without SR or any sort of hazard, it's absurdly easy to just slap a Focus Sash on anything for easy revenge kills and "surprise" sweeps. Sturdy becomes much easier to abuse in a metagame without rocks up, and SR's biggest benefit by far is keeping sashes in check (otherwise you NEED to keep your priority user alive CONSTANTLY and ALWAYS to revenge many threats, simply because of the sash).

There's a reason why suicide leads aren't too common anymore, and it's not just because of team preview making it easier to deal with them, but also because setting up rocks alone won't always be why you net KOs. Now teams want that turn to set up actual boosting moves while under weather conditions and time constraints increase more and more.

Magic Coat is actually a very nice move, though it requires prediction, there are plenty of cases where a stalling Pokemon simply wants to status something on the switch or toss out rocks, spikes or any form of hazard, while magic coat throws it into your favor.

The talk about needing SR, or needing a spinner, or needing a spin blocker is ridiculous. Unless your team consists of several 4x/2x SR weak Pokemon, chances are you can simply play around it.

 

[Nickg07]

SR is overused, not because its required but due to the insane damage it provides making the deployers job much easier. Flying Pokemon do have weaknesses that are easily exploitable without SR but as SR is so powerful they are rarely required after simply deploying SR.

It would have been so much better if gamefreak would have simply beefed the damage by half as already suggested but alas it was not done.

 

[Showsni]

Well, it certainly makes my all butterfly/moth team harder to play.

I guess the main problem people have with it is obviously the boosted damage to Rock weak Pokémon. If it just did a set amount of damage, it would be fine. Instead, it arbitrarily punishes a few specific Pokémon, most of which really aren't broken enough to warrant it. (Poor little Beautifly...) Unless Gamefreak see fit to change the mechanics of the move (doubtful) the only recourse we have is a full scale ban, which obviously isn't ideal.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

EDIT: @Mario With Lasers: gah, I need to read more carefully - Good point, but that assumes that Stealth Rock isn't broken. It would, essentially, be "removing X" to get a better metagame, but if it's broken, then one would say that Stealth Rock has an adverse effect on the metagame, and that it would be more desirable to remove in it's entirety, despite the difficulties.

Yes, if it's broken in the end, then we'll have made the right decision by "testing" it -- but how? I guess you weren't here back in the Garchomp days -- it was hell to convince people to test it, by setting a Suspect ladder without it; Gen V Stealth Rock doesn't even come close to DP Garchomp, specially with so many other monsters on the loose. Unless people "realize" Stealth Rock may be broken, there won't be testing; you say it may be broken but, for the others, it's just a better Spikes.

 

[truevillany]

While we are @ it... here are MY list of demands!

1. ban sandstream and exadrill because it makes him a bamf
2. ban the move pursuit because it deters me from using my favorite psychic / ghosts
3. ban magnet pull b/c it deters me from using my favorite steels


Doesnt that sound silly? Granted... NONE of these examples are as profound as the use of stealth rock. Quite frankly I dont like the move that much. But even though its not my favorite move in the world, that doesnt mean we should ban it.

SS + drizzle/manaphy, Evasion and ohkos are completely different than sr. Though sr drastically changes the game and pokemon usage, these are a bit different in the sense that the former demands that you have pokemon that are able to benefit from rain, or u are doomed. The ladder has so many reasons why they are banned and i dont want to go into them, but basically it makes the game broken to the point that its not a game worth playing competitively.

Who here hasnt played a team that had sr, without u having sr up and won? REALLY? So.... basically as long as someone else has an advantage over you based on the the that YOU picked... that automatically makes u lose? USE SOME SKILL! when @ a disadvantage, use ur prediction skills or force a switch to gain the upper hand... do something other than just pew pewing.

If u like charizard... pick charizard... just SUPPORT him. have a game plan for if u have to switch into sr... but try to remove it or prevent it in the 1st place.

So what you have to "waste" 2 moveslots for sr and rs. 2 moveslots out of 24 moves on a 6 poke team = win vs lose? C'mon... stop complaining... it gets really annoying... its a GAME of strategy.

Game Freak already Dumbed it down for you... YOU CAN SEE UR OPPONETS FREAKING TEAM FFS!!! You guys complaining about something like SR seems a little trivial when you take that into consideration.

Stop saying that SR should be nerfed... because just like EVERY competitive game... once you do that, people will still complain and say that it is overpowered...

And to those saying that rapid spin is a bad move.... lets do a little math shall we?

1 move for sr
3 moves for spikes
2 moves for toxic spikes

All negated by 1 move... rapid spin.... now please tell me how ur 6 turns of set up (assuming that ONE pokemon had all those moves... most likely it would be 7 turns because u would have to switch to diff pokemon who know each move) being negated by one turn of rapid spin sucks? I mean come on...

The bottom line is... dont just slap together ur favorite pokemon and give all of them the strong 4 attacks they can haveand start spamming attacks... the game was meant to take some thought into how you create ur team.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

While we are @ it... here are MY list of demands!

1. ban sandstream and exadrill because it makes him a bamf
2. ban the move pursuit because it deters me from using my favorite psychic / ghosts
3. ban magnet pull b/c it deters me from using my favorite steels


Doesnt that sound silly? Granted... NONE of these examples are as profound as the use of stealth rock. Quite frankly I dont like the move that much. But even though its not my favorite move in the world, that doesnt mean we should ban it.

SS + drizzle/manaphy, Evasion and ohkos are completely different than sr. Though sr drastically changes the game and pokemon usage, these are a bit different in the sense that the former demands that you have pokemon that are able to benefit from rain, or u are doomed. The ladder has so many reasons why they are banned and i dont want to go into them, but basically it makes the game broken to the point that its not a game worth playing competitively.

Who here hasnt played a team that had sr, without u having sr up and won? REALLY? So.... basically as long as someone else has an advantage over you based on the the that YOU picked... that automatically makes u lose? USE SOME SKILL! when @ a disadvantage, use ur prediction skills or force a switch to gain the upper hand... do something other than just pew pewing.

If u like charizard... pick charizard... just SUPPORT him. have a game plan for if u have to switch into sr... but try to remove it or prevent it in the 1st place.

So what you have to "waste" 2 moveslots for sr and rs. 2 moveslots out of 24 moves on a 6 poke team = win vs lose? C'mon... stop complaining... it gets really annoying... its a GAME of strategy.

Game Freak already Dumbed it down for you... YOU CAN SEE UR OPPONETS FREAKING TEAM FFS!!! You guys complaining about something like SR seems a little trivial when you take that into consideration.

Stop saying that SR should be nerfed... because just like EVERY competitive game... once you do that, people will still complain and say that it is overpowered...

And to those saying that rapid spin is a bad move.... lets do a little math shall we?

1 move for sr
3 moves for spikes
2 moves for toxic spikes

All negated by 1 move... rapid spin.... now please tell me how ur 6 turns of set up (assuming that ONE pokemon had all those moves... most likely it would be 7 turns because u would have to switch to diff pokemon who know each move) being negated by one turn of rapid spin sucks? I mean come on...

The bottom line is... dont just slap together ur favorite pokemon and give all of them the strong 4 attacks they can haveand start spamming attacks... the game was meant to take some thought into how you create ur team.

It wouldn't be such an issue if Rapid Spin didn't have such a small list of users (and SR distribution has also dropped since it's no longer a TM).

As of Gen 5, Rapid Spin is learnable by a whopping 18 or so fully evolved pokemon. A few of those are completely useless outside of Rapid Spin (Delibird and Spinda won't ever be useful). It's not just 1 moveslot out of 24, it's an entire pokemon on the set used solely for one person. Personally, I wouldn't be running Claydol on my Hail team if I didn't feel like I needed Rapid Spin (not that he's bad per se, I'd just like to use other pokemon that I just can't stick on my team due to needing Rapin Spin).

And then there's Stealth Rock. There's around 20 fully evolved pokemon that learn that (since the TM was removed, although it seems like on PO, we still have a lot of guys using it that technically can't use it in Gen. V, so I don't know what's up with that).
So now a lot of those pokemon only get use because of Stealth Rock.

But wait, there's more! Now that you have a SR inducer and a Rapid Spinner, you need someone who can prevent Rapid Spin. That's right, a Ghost-type Spin Blocker. Now, Ghosts happen to be the least common type, at only 15 fully evolved Ghost types.

You're still not set, though. What can you do to prevent the other guy from setting up in the first place? Taunt/Magic Coat/Magic Guard. Now, this one isn't nearly as big a deal, since Taunt has a pretty large distribution.

So that's 4 entire roles based solely on inducing and countering one specific move. Not only is that way more than "2 slots out of 24", it also puts a pretty tight limit on pokemon that use those moves.

Whether or not it should be banned, you just can't argue that it's not way overcentralizing. A huge part of the game now revolves around this single move, and in my opinion, it's just way too limiting. Now, you don't necessarily HAVE to run all 4 roles. You can win without setting up SR or using Rapid Spin. But it's harder. SR completely cripples certain pokemon and its only useful counter is 20 BP (it actually does 0% damage on certain guys when I use it).

 

[LeviLamprey]

SR can be used by Gen 4 Pokemon transferred over, which explains the 'invalid' use of SR, though moveset or ability incompatibility is one reason there are overall less SR users ATM.

 

[Odinwolf]

@truevillainy, drizzle + SS is actually a really good comparison to stealth rock in this generation. Basically, GameFreak has allowed some very specific things to have a huge impact on the way the competitive game is played. Swift Swim made water types very powerful and forced players to constantly consider weather changers on their team to keep it in check. Likewise, Stealth Rock disproportionately hurts types that are weak to it and forces competitive teams in classic style battles to constantly consider rapid spin, spin blocking and sadly, just plain old switching when they build their teams. They are nearly identical conundrums, only stealth rock has been around for longer and people are used to it.

Sadly, Smogon has made a mockery of itself for banning SS+Drizzle combos in the world of competitive gaming (if they didn't already with the Garchomp/Salamence bans in Gen4) and by doing so has opened up the door for all these things to debated and discussed. Rather than dealing with Generation 5 being about weather control and building teams that can be successful in that environment, Smogon has tried to force Gen5 to be more like previous generations and tried to force some arbitrary idea of balance onto it. When you do that, now all the people that feel shafted by a lame set-it-and-forget-it-for-free-damage move start thinking about all the other pogeys that would be viable if this was removed. Now you can sash weaker pogeys, bring more flying and bug types into competitive play and fire types don't look so flimsy anymore.

So the bottom line is... you can't just slap stealth rocks down and eliminate/neuter entire strategies, pokemon or types. The game was meant to take some thought into how you create "ur" team.

Ok, really though... the bottom line actually is, as long as Smogon bans things like move/ability combinations and lets some subjective concept like "is the game 'better' without this" drive its ban process, then its perfectly reasonable and viable to discuss banning Stealth Rock. For that matter, its entirely possible to ban it. It is more "centralizing" than Garchomp ever was and neuters far more pokemon than rain does. Players are just used to it and the Drizzle+SS ban was based on something new.

 

[truevillany]

@ Gneiss

You are pigeonholeing urself. you dont ABOSULTEY need a sr user, a rapid spinner, a spin blocker, and a taunter. if that is the case, there are only a few pokemon combinations that offer all of these attirbutes and cover each others weaknesses while also defnding and going on the attack well. Quite frankly, there are times when i go with absolutely none of these, because i have such a fast, high powered offensive team that it is not absolutely necssary.

I happen to never use spinblockers... dusclops was the only one that i thoguht was viably able to be a dedicated spin blocker... now u have even more with jellicent, cofagrigus, the ground /ghost guy etc.... so you have even more options... but even still... you dont absolutely HAVE to have them.

you see my friend I just use some strategy... spin them away if you wish.... but i will make u pay for it by setting up on ur spinner or seriously hurting it... and there are a ton highly powered offensive types to choose from... either way i am controlling the pace of the battle and gaining momentum...

My teams even carry pokemion like volcarona sometimes, which is 4x weak to sr... that doesnt mean that I have to have a taunter or a spinner (although I do happen to fun it with forretress for spin support if possible). But even still, you have to expect that there will be times that you will need to take that sr hit. Whats that mean for me?
a. Use volcarona as a lead.
b. try to set up opportunities to spin if necessary.
c. maybe use a bulky volcarona instead of the all out offensive one and have some type of recovery... using it when the opportunity arrises...
d. do my absolute best not to use him until late game when the opponents team has been weakened substantially... so i can sweep
e. use sr to my advantage by switching in and running sub salac to activate swarm and start wrecking shop... Charizard can abuse the same strat with blaze

The point is... play the way YOU want to play... yes, know that some pokemon are weak to sr.... u may need to devise some strategy to be able to use them effectively... but that is what makes this game so good... there are so many team possibilities...

BTW... there are pokemon that can do more than each of the jobs u just mentioned... Forretress for instance can sr and spin... gliscor can taunt and sr... these are only a few examples. Dont make it seem like you cant find any "support" pokemon who cant fill more than one support role.


@ odinwolf

Drizzle + ss/hydration pretty much makes any team not able to simply stop drizzle toad from entering battle, or not having those abilites on your corresponding team almost gauranteed to lose. esspcially since u cant use air lock in standard battles and Golduck is pretty mediocre and cant stop opposing water types anyways... Sr does not do that. Even if u have SR up and i dont have anyway of removing it... AND i dont have sr up, I can still win... and the small amount of pokemon who are 4x weak to sr is in no way close to the Large # of pokemon who do not in someway benefit from rain

 

[Galactic Boss Cyrus]

While it doesn't look like Stealth Rock is as broken as it was in Gen 4, it's still the single best move in the game, and Shadow Tag Chandelure makes killing Rapid Spinners the easiest thing since OHKO'ing something weak to Stealth Rock.

The most unbelievable thing about SR is that Game Freak didn't nerf it at all.

Hopefully, this time around, Stealth Rock will be more seriously considered for a ban. Generation 5 is putting way too much emphasize on hazards and residual damage with full-out offense.

 

[DoWork44]

Shrug, it's just the evolution of the metagame imo. I'd prefer entry hazards like stealth rock than a static and boring metagame. Since Stealth Rocks is used by everyone, it benefits people on both sides. That's how I justify it not being too ridiculous.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

My friends Scizor and Heatran would like to tell you about a static and boring metagame. How can you even consider something like Entry Hazards not static and boring, when a good portion of the arguement for leaving them be is that they're becomming less popular, and a good portion of those against them are as sick of them as ever?

I've heard the same arguements repeated here, and I still side with people like Gniss; sure, you don't NEED a hazard-setup, rapid spinner, spin-blocker, ect, but that doesn't mean you don't see teams who have them. 3-4 pokemon pretty much deticated to making sure they have to think twice about switching in. Charizard and Volcorona can both be killed, TKO'd by two moves with literally zero BP; Stealth Rock and Whirlwind(any phazer really).
I will agree that they possilby aren't as broken as the requirements for being banned would warrent, but I wouldn't be too upset if the bar were lowered a bit, just for this case.

 

[lmitchell0012]

As a move overall, stealth rock is definitely over-hyped IMHO. Everyone is so concerned about getting those rocks up, but more often than not the pokemon who sets them up ends up getting killed. In 4th generation, for example, more often than not I saw people lose their lead azelf to machamp or some other anti lead pokemon. Last time I checked, the goal of pokemon was to keep your pokemon alive.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

As a move overall, stealth rock is definitely over-hyped IMHO. Everyone is so concerned about getting those rocks up, but more often than not the pokemon who sets them up ends up getting killed. In 4th generation, for example, more often than not I saw people lose their lead azelf to machamp or some other anti lead pokemon. Last time I checked, the goal of pokemon was to keep your pokemon alive.

I disagree; most SR leads like Azelf or Foretress also had Explosion, so that once their job was done, they'd get out, and hopefully take something with them.
Overhyped, a little, I agree, but not so much so that complaints are without merit.

 

[Fake Sketch]

SR isnt overhyped, It can help most STAB Super Effectives kill in 1 less turn.

 

[Slightly]

Shrug, it's just the evolution of the metagame imo. I'd prefer entry hazards like stealth rock than a static and boring metagame. Since Stealth Rocks is used by everyone, it benefits people on both sides. That's how I justify it not being too ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure one of the factors of broken was something that had to be countered by itself. Hence overcentralizing.

Stealth Rock IS overcentralizing. I can't tell you how disappointed I was when I heard the rumour of it being capped at 25% this gen was false.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I disagree; most SR leads like Azelf or Foretress also had Explosion, so that once their job was done, they'd get out, and hopefully take something with them.
Overhyped, a little, I agree, but not so much so that complaints are without merit.

Yeah, but machamp has bullet punch to KO azelf before it explodes, so that usually doesn't work, as machamp also carries focus sash quite often (yes, we're assuming that azelf has a focus sash). For anything else with explosion blocking them is as easy as switching in a ghost type or using protect.

 

[Boingo]

Since SR is so controversial, why not just test it? Make a SR-less ladder on PO and see if things like ZOMG GYARA and Mence really become 10 times more dangerous (which I don't believe). Shouldn't be so hard? Sorry if this has already been suggested.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

While it doesn't look like Stealth Rock is as broken as it was in Gen 4, it's still the single best move in the game, and Shadow Tag Chandelure makes killing Rapid Spinners the easiest thing since OHKO'ing something weak to Stealth Rock.

The most unbelievable thing about SR is that Game Freak didn't nerf it at all.

Hopefully, this time around, Stealth Rock will be more seriously considered for a ban. Generation 5 is putting way too much emphasize on hazards and residual damage with full-out offense.

Starmie eats non-scarf'd Chandelure for breakfast. Scarf'd Starmie eats all Chandelure for breakfast(although locking yourself into Rapid Spin is dumb).

Just sayin'.

 

[Benlisted]

I don't really see how SR is "overcentralising". It prevents the use of things 4x weak somewhat - but despite this things good enough (like Volcarona) are still OU, meaning it clearly doesn't have that decisive an impact on that sorta thing.

In terms of forcing use of a spinner and/or spinblocker - Spikes and T-Spikes do the same if you lack an absorber and have multiple grounded mons, so they're just as centralising in terms of that.

Personally singles would easily turn into switching wars if SR were not there to punish people trying to switch around to force LO recoil for instance, so the benefits it provides are far greater than any negatives. PO had a no-hazards tier last gen but noone played it, so if you hate them that much I'd advise going over to their forums and petitioning for one for 5th gen if you're really that bothered.

 

[truevillany]

... My only problem is people complaining about a move that is not overpowered instead of using some ingenuity and finding a way around it... as a matter of fact... ima make a team with only 2x or 4x weak to sr and rape stuff with it...


seriously guys like a previous person said... "its not 2007... why are we still argueing about a move that has been a staple for 4 years?"

IMO Too many people just slap a team together without considering certain situations... like sr... and then u get mad... or rage quit because the lead threw out sr and NOW WHAT DO I DO!?!?!?!? MY BELLY ZARD WONT WORK ANYMORE!!!

Its kinda comical to me...

 

[Megaron]

Alright, I'll say it. It's overpowered.
Why?
You're using up only one moveslot on a single Pokemon to counter several otherwise perfectly viable Pokémon with a fire-and-forget move. Oh, sure, you can have Spinners. But that can be countered, you know. And it's EASY thanks to Scarfdelure.

Now, if that didn't satisfy you, let's look at the minimum amount of effort it could take to counter Scizor, Ferrothorn, Escavalier and pretty much anything weak to Fire or Ghost, whether 2x or 4x.

Add to your team:
Chandelure @Choice Scarf #Shadow Tag.
-Shadow Ball
-Overheat
-Energy Ball
-Psychic
252 Spatk, 252 Speed, 4 HP.

Congratulations, you wasted a valuable Pokeslot to counter a wide array of threats. Go and claim some victories.

Now let's look at the minimal amount of effort it could take to counter any Pokémon weak to SR.

I have an Azelf. Or Infernape. Or one of the around 100 Pokemon that learn it. I had it to prevent hazards on my side. Now it also counters anything weak to Rock simply because I decided to give it a single move.


I rest my case.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Alright, I'll say it. It's overpowered.
Why?
You're using up only one moveslot on a single Pokemon to counter several otherwise perfectly viable Pokémon with a fire-and-forget move. Oh, sure, you can have Spinners. But that can be countered, you know. And it's EASY thanks to Scarfdelure.

Chandelure is irrelevant, as its Shadow Tag version doesn't exist yet. And Pursuit was a single move which diminished greatly the usage of Ghost and Psychic pokémon back in DPPt, so...? Besides, I wonder what does your Ghost pokémon do to Excadrill. Or rather, what does your SR pokémon do to Xatu/Espeon without dying horribly either to them or to a revenge killer without finding time to properly set up SR.

I have an Azelf. Or Infernape. Or one of the around 100 Pokemon that learn it. I had it to prevent hazards on my side. Now it also counters anything weak to Rock simply because I decided to give it a single move.


I rest my case.

Ok so you mention Chandelure and then Azelf/Nape as suicidal leads... Which generation are you playing on.

 

[Sensei_Bobbilytus]

Chandelure is irrelevant, as its Shadow Tag version doesn't exist yet. And Pursuit was a single move which diminished greatly the usage of Ghost and Psychic pokémon back in DPPt, so...? Besides, I wonder what does your Ghost pokémon do to Excadrill. Or rather, what does your SR pokémon do to Xatu/Espeon without dying horribly either to them or to a revenge killer without finding time to properly set up SR.



Ok so you mention Chandelure and then Azelf/Nape as suicidal leads... Which generation are you playing on.

It's not that hard to transfer pokemon. One of the first things I did with my white was transfer over a Stealth Rock Torterra. One of the first things I ever heard about Stealth Rock in Gen V, actually, was "fewer pokemon get it because it's not a TM. Looks like we'll be transferring a lot of Gen IV guys with it."
And compairing Stealth Rocks to pursuit is kinda strange. A move that's based on prediction vs a move that is, as mentioned, fire-and-forget? I'd love to see your Persuit T-Tar rip through ghosts and psychics when it's not even active, just because it attacked once previously. I know most of the times I've ever stealth-rocked, I've been smart enough NOT to do it as a lead, so I'm not sure where Espeon/Xatu come into play. Especially when I can run a pursuit lead and laugh. Mindgames are fun I guess, but I'll give you that not everyone plays quite that way.