np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Shining Kestral]

No one answered this.... why is blaze blaziken currently banned? Can anyone come up with any viable reason at all?

Because Blaze Blaziken and Speed Boost Blaziken are not considered separate Pokémon/different formes. They are both Blaziken. Same reason why Natural Cure Starmie isn't considered any different from Illuminate Starmie.

 

[truevillany]

Because Blaze Blaziken and Speed Boost Blaziken are not considered separate Pokémon/different formes. They are both Blaziken. Same reason why Natural Cure Starmie isn't considered any different from Illuminate Starmie.

Right.... I get what your saying, but that begs the question... Why not just ban speed boost blaziken and not blaze blaziken? With all due respect this is not a viable explanation.

As a matter of fact, it doesnt even make sense. Blaziken with ability A is broken, while Blaziken with ability B is good. So get rid of them both? Maybe there is some politics with banning stuff that I am not aware of.
EDIT:

EDIT : because most dont want(and IIRC you cant have) to have complex ability ban banning speed boost + blaze and banning SB is unreasonable so far(lol ninjask)

I did not quote the other part of your response because that did not make sense either. Same could be said about a handful of pokes in OU currently

But @ least this part of your response is getting somewhere. So basically blaze blaziken gets banned because of something entirely wrong with the way we ban stuff

 

[JSND]

How easy you can get easy kill on Blaziken is far to crazy compared to others.

Since we all know that Sun Blitz is stronger than DM by a lot margin so yeah he kill even easier than Latios. And we havent even factoring Speed Boost.

And this is as i say just the core argument. You need to ask others for more developed argument.

And believe me you will get tired of noobs saying no you dont ban SB blaziken because you revenge him and he dont sweep" since after all all you need is cripple and/or kill.

That and this post actualy saying you question speed Blazkiken ban so yeah sorry

 

[truevillany]

How easy you can get easy kill on Blaziken is far to crazy compared to others.

Since we all know that Sun Blitz is stronger than DM by a lot margin so yeah he kill even easier than Latios. And we havent even factoring Speed Boost.

And this is as i say just the core argument. You need to ask others for more developed argument.

And believe me you will get tired of noobs saying no you dont ban SB blaziken because you revenge him and he dont sweep" since after all all you need is cripple and/or kill.

That and this post actualy saying you question speed Blazkiken ban so yeah sorry

So then why not ban V-Create Victini under the sun? Or Salamence who has even more offensive prowess and can actually take a hit? There are plenty of other examples if you wish...

Basically what you are saying is because in gen 5 blaziken has a lot easier access to sun, and now runs HJK instead of superpower, in a more threatening metagame with even faster and more powerful threats, he should not only be banned from UU play, but OU as well?

This is regular blaziken were talking about... not speed boost

 

[Shining Kestral]

Right.... I get what your saying, but that begs the question... Why not just ban speed boost blaziken and not blaze blaziken? With all due respect this is not a viable explanation.

As a matter of fact, it doesnt even make sense. Blaziken with ability A is broken, while Blaziken with ability B is good. So get rid of them both? Maybe there is some politics with banning stuff that I am not aware of.

Then consider this: a Pokémon when made suspect, is always considered when fighting at its fullest potential. Blaziken is at its fullest potential when using Speed Boost. An ability doesn't make a Pokémon a different mon any more than using a different nature or a different moveset does. If you truly feel it does, start lobbying for a change in that.

Now, it's my turn to ask a question: why is keeping Blaze Blaziken important? Competitive Pokémon revolves in maximizing your Pokémon's strengths to win games. Why should we keep intentionally weakened versions of Pokémon around? Why should we place unique and ridiculous restrictions on a Pokémon to keep it OU or UU or whatever? Why would this be a good thing to place in so many rules and restrictions just to keep certain Pokémon in certain tiers? Not just Blaziken, but any Pokémon that isn't allowed in whatever tiers.

 

[jas61292]

This is regular blaziken were talking about... not speed boost

The point is, there is no difference between the two. Blaziken is Blaziken. That's it. If there were different stats or typing, they would be tiered differently, but a different ability is no different than a different moveset. A good comparison is 4th gen Rotom-A. Despite the fact that only Rotom-W and Rotom-H saw large enough usage to even be OU, they were all essentially the same but with different movesets, so they were tiered together.

One Tier Per Pokemon. That's how it works.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

The point is, there is no difference between the two. Blaziken is Blaziken. That's it. If there were different stats or typing, they would be tiered differently, but a different ability is no different than a different moveset. A good comparison is 4th gen Rotom-A. Despite the fact that only Rotom-W and Rotom-H saw large enough usage to even be OU, they were all essentially the same but with different movesets, so they were tiered together.

One Tier Per Pokemon. That's how it works.

You should learn the difference between policy and debate.

 

[Perge]

i dont see why it has to be abilities cant be different mons. it really doesnt make sense. Blaziken makes it super obvious they need to be counted differently. Its clear no one here is afraid of blaze blaziken. You see it as a weaker less usable mon. hence his uu condition under normal circumstances. it has been proven that banning its ability, even if just this once, on this one mon, would have NO negative effects on the metagame. At all. if anything it makes it a more competitive uu arena. i understand in the past that a pokemons ability was simply part of the mon. but now that one ability is clearly broken while one clearly is not, its time to move on from that frame of mind.

 

[Kinglypuff]

The point is, there is no difference between the two. Blaziken is Blaziken. That's it. If there were different stats or typing, they would be tiered differently, but a different ability is no different than a different moveset. A good comparison is 4th gen Rotom-A. Despite the fact that only Rotom-W and Rotom-H saw large enough usage to even be OU, they were all essentially the same but with different movesets, so they were tiered together.

One Tier Per Pokemon. That's how it works.

I don't really agree with that. It can be understood, but, what made Blaziken broken to people eyes' ? Speed Boost. It's the only cause of his brokeness. But it was Blaziken wich was banned, no Speed Boost Blaziken.

People will probably say "Then ban DM Latios, SD Garchomp", and stuff like that, but I don't think it's the same thing. An Ability isn't an attack. When you're thinking of Drizzle + Swift Swift ban, what was broken ? Politoed + Kingdra ? No, it's the combo of their abilities. And we didn't ban Kingdra + Toed.

Well, it's not really the same thing, but it's the same idea. It think that when it's one ability wich make the pokemon too strong, and when you know that :
- Without, he's far from broken
- You can play without

Then you shouldn't ban the pokemon.

 

[lostaurora]

i dont see why it has to be abilities cant be different mons. it really doesnt make sense. Blaziken makes it super obvious they need to be counted differently. Its clear no one here is afraid of blaze blaziken. You see it as a weaker less usable mon. hence his uu condition under normal circumstances. it has been proven that banning its ability, even if just this once, on this one mon, would have NO negative effects on the metagame. At all. if anything it makes it a more competitive uu arena. i understand in the past that a pokemons ability was simply part of the mon. but now that one ability is clearly broken while one clearly is not, its time to move on from that frame of mind.

Why, then, for people who support the exclusive banning of an ability on a specific Pokemon, is banning moves on Pokemon to make them un-broken so different? I strongly oppose both, but how can you make that distinction that the line should be drawn between abilities and moves? A combination of both moves and ability caused Blaziken to be broken; for proponents of banning Speed Boost on Blaziken, why not opt for banning Flare Blitz/HJK on Blaziken? The point is, the line needs to be drawn somewhere and remain there consistently. It seems to make much more sense to draw the line under species (above both abilities and moves, which constitute a given species) rather than between abilities and moves, as both attributes contribute to a Pokemon's effect on the metagame in a similar manner.My point being, why "ban this ability, just this once", changing where the community as a whole draws the line for banning, just to introduce Blaze Blaziken into UU? Too much effort without enough yield.

 

[jas61292]

You should learn the difference between policy and debate.

I know the difference, and I wasn't stating my opinion. People want to know why Blaze was banned. That is the rule. I was just laying it out for them.

I don't see why it has to be abilities cant be different mons. it really doesnt make sense. Blaziken makes it super obvious they need to be counted differently. Its clear no one here is afraid of blaze blaziken. You see it as a weaker less usable mon. hence his uu condition under normal circumstances. it has been proven that banning its ability, even if just this once, on this one mon, would have NO negative effects on the metagame. At all. if anything it makes it a more competitive uu arena. i understand in the past that a pokemons ability was simply part of the mon. but now that one ability is clearly broken while one clearly is not, its time to move on from that frame of mind.

Well, then what about Illuminate Starmie, that's not gonna be OU. Or Inner Focus Dragonite. What about Zen Mode Darmanitan or Flash Fire Ninetales?

Thing is, once you re-tier 1 Pokemon, you have to do it with all. Not only is that not practical, but all it will probably do is make UU almost exactly like OU but with inferior abilities.

A Pokemon is a Pokemon. It includes all it's moves, abilities, stats and types. Our job is to tier Pokemon. Not tier different versions of Pokemon.

 

[Perge]

I have to draw the line after ability. Its something thats relativley easy to do. It keeps the pokemon in the metagame without it becoming useless. and is on a different level then moves. this is how i see it
-species-
-ability-
-moves-EV's-etc-(you dont touch this level)

ability is something that can be broken down black and white. it seems to count as two pokemon in most peoples eyes. Honestly the best proposal i can think of is if a new ability is introduced to a mon, DW, New gen, etc, and it calls the pokemon in suspect, draw that line. test both. test both abilities to there fullest. theres no reason not to. its more restrictive not to. look at chomp. as much as i love him, hes still being called suspect due to his ability. when his DW ability is(if ever) i wouldnt mind a suspect round of the two abilites.[ i personally dont see him as broken either way, but if it is his ability, something he has multiple choices on, AND still makes him a viable pokemon,] WHY NOT? theres no reason not to take the two and test them. If it is found SV on chomp is broken whereas RS is not, why not let it in? there isnt. Its almost like the general smogon community is afraid to make precedent for other incidents. There is no harm in splitting based on ability. It allows a pokemon to still be viable in the metagame, and its as simple as splitting the pokemon after a suspect test of the two abilities.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I was going to ask why in heavens are people still trying to bring down Blaziken for some ridiculous entitlement argument (hint: HJK and Speed Boost were equally important for Blaziken's Uber voting), but I read the OP more carefully just now and

(...) Along with Blaziken went Bright Powder and Lax Incense... but for the most part everybody was happy to see those go. On top of that, the Psychics, Latios and Deoxys-E, were put on notice and only need one more simple majority ban vote to get the boot as well.

Will Blaziken be the first banned Pokemon to be re-evaluated and brought back down to be tested again in OU? Will Latios and Deoxys-E be permitted to continue roaming around in the OU metagame, or will their visas expire? Will the lack of Bright Powder or Lax Incense be enough to allow my moves to hit Garchomp in the sand?... this one is doubtful, but everything else is up to YOU to decide!

This thread is a discussion thread for discussing trends in the metagame, Pokemon that are controversial in some way, and other aspects of the Standard OU metagame. Do not use this thread to discuss evasion or OHKO clauses, dropping Uber Pokemon into OU, etc. Use other discussions threads for those.

Why exactly are we allowed to discuss bringing Blaziken down but couldn't discuss Manaphy/Deoxys-N/etc last Round? Why does Blaziken deserve to be re-tested more than the other former suspects?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I know the difference, and I wasn't stating my opinion. People want to know why Blaze was banned. That is the rule. I was just laying it out for them.



Well, then what about Illuminate Starmie, that's not gonna be OU. Or Inner Focus Dragonite. What about Zen Mode Darmanitan or Flash Fire Ninetales?

Thing is, once you re-tier 1 Pokemon, you have to do it with all. Not only is that not practical, but all it will probably do is make UU almost exactly like OU but with inferior abilities.

A Pokemon is a Pokemon. It includes all it's moves, abilities, stats and types. Our job is to tier Pokemon. Not tier different versions of Pokemon.

Zen Mode Darmanitan is quite different, because it is literally a different Pokémon. And Illuminate Starmie and Inner Focus Dragonite would be BL.

 

[capefeather]

You guys are opening two huge cans of worms by suggesting that Speed Boost Blaziken in particular should be banned, and not Blaze Blaziken.

The first is that Speed Boost isn't the only factor that made Blaziken so good and, in the suspect voters' eyes, ban-worthy. Half of what made Blaziken so goddamn awesome was that it had a 130 base power Hi Jump Kick; its best Fighting STAB before was Superpower <.< If Tentacruel didn't have to invest heavily in Def to survive a +2 HJK (for example), Blaziken would have been quite a bit less broken. And that's not even talking about the existing Fire STABs Flare Blitz and Fire Blast off 120/110 offenses. It's extremely rare to have one factor break a Pokémon.

The other problem is, of course, the potential for increased complexity of the ruleset that could be justified. There's a point where banning one aspect of one Pokémon is simply not worth the nonexistent improvement to the diversity (or whatever) of the metagame. Why not keep Specs Garchomp in Gen 4 or level 50 Mewtwo? I bet that if this community wasn't so reliant on a simulator, none of this would have even come up. It's needless complication of the ruleset.

Why exactly are we allowed to discuss bringing Blaziken down but couldn't discuss Manaphy/Deoxys-N/etc last Round? Why does Blaziken deserve to be re-tested more than the other former suspects?

A bunch of older players have been complaining about the Blaziken ban. Philip7086 was either listening to them or parodying them.

 

[jas61292]

Zen Mode Darmanitan is quite different, because it is literally a different Pokémon. And Illuminate Starmie and Inner Focus Dragonite would be BL.

Zen Mode was a bad example, but the general idea still stands. If we did that, those guys probably wouldn't be BL though. Why? because they would have to compete with all the other UU Pokemon that are the worse version of an OU Pokemon.

As I said, Our job is to evaluate Pokemon themselves. We should not be deciding that different versions of a Pokemon are superior to other versions. A Pokemon is a Pokemon. That's it.

 

[Downf4ll]

Hmm, well I don't know if either Yoshiken of TheValkyries got the message, but I'm done with this. In a way I'm on your side; arguing about this is completely pointless because at the heart of this, is a difference of opinion. Not a matter of fact. (doesn't mean I don't want the abilities gone though).

I mainly agree with Thor now though; why don't we just vote and get it over with? If it gets banned, the majority wanted it, and if not, then no skin off anyone's nose, right?

EDIT: note to self, don't type something out, forget to post it and then post it almost half a day later. My bad, I'll switch to a more relevant topic.

Why should we unban Blaziken? I mean yea, Blaze Blaziken (wow that was awkward to type in) is probably UU, maybe BL considering it's power now, but why fight so adamantly for a pokemon who will bring virtually no change to the metagame?

I mean, if he ends up being UU, then one of two things will happen:

1. Everyone and their mother will use it, and then it'll be declared BL.

2. Only a small number of people used him, then you would have contributed nothing to the metagame by bringing him back.

Since I doubt he'll only garner medium usage. If he ends up coming back and being BL though then noone will ever use him, since he'd be back to being an inferior infernape (another awkward alliteration. I did that on purpose).

So now, I ask you again, why do you want to see him unbanned?

 

[Roosh]

The Pokemon obsessive inside me just wants to point out that this is not true. Dark Void is only 80% accurate, so its actually worse than Spore. Its only advantage is that in Doubles/Triples it can put multiple opponents to sleep at once.

Oh, that's my bad then. I have not played Ubers, let alone with a Darkrai. So it's Sleep Powder with 5 more accuracy, effectively making it LESS useful in standard singles than Spore.

 

[Perge]

You guys are opening two huge cans of worms by suggesting that Speed Boost Blaziken in particular should be banned, and not Blaze Blaziken.

The first is that Speed Boost isn't the only factor that made Blaziken so good and, in the suspect voters' eyes, ban-worthy. Half of what made Blaziken so goddamn awesome was that it had a 130 base power Hi Jump Kick; its best Fighting STAB before was Superpower <.< If Tentacruel didn't have to invest heavily in Def to survive a +2 HJK (for example), Blaziken would have been quite a bit less broken. And that's not even talking about the existing Fire STABs Flare Blitz and Fire Blast off 120/110 offenses. It's extremely rare to have one factor break a Pokémon.
But as of gen 4 it has been the "breaking point" for at least two "broken" pokemon

see what i did there ;)

The other problem is, of course, the potential for increased complexity of the ruleset that could be justified. There's a point where banning one aspect of one Pokémon is simply not worth the nonexistent improvement to the diversity (or whatever) of the metagame. Why not keep Specs Garchomp in Gen 4 or level 50 Mewtwo? I bet that if this community wasn't so reliant on a simulator, none of this would have even come up. It's needless complication of the ruleset.

and thats why i feel precedent needs to be made, what can we change without ruining the metagame through and through. Which i have to argue we can hold abilites acountable for breaking a pokemon, if you will.
.

bold and what not

 

[BKC]

Right.... I get what your saying, but that begs the question... Why not just ban speed boost blaziken and not blaze blaziken? With all due respect this is not a viable explanation.

Because smogon's policy is to ban things as a whole (with the exception of the drizzle+swift swim ban; i think it's a temporary thing but i'm probably wrong). Moody, the ability, was banned; but it was banned for everything that could get it. If you want to ban speed boost Blaziken and not blaze Blaziken, you have to ban speed boost with everything else that gets it, such as Ninjask. Speed Boost is not the only reason Blaziken was broken.

 

[Downf4ll]

Because smogon's policy is to ban things as a whole (with the exception of the drizzle+swift swim ban; i think it's a temporary thing but i'm probably wrong). Moody, the ability, was banned; but it was banned for everything that could get it. If you want to ban speed boost Blaziken and not blaze Blaziken, you have to ban speed boost with everything else that gets it, such as Ninjask. Speed Boost is not the only reason Blaziken was broken.

252 LO Modest Poliwag Surf on 4/0 Adamant Blaziken: 98-116%. Poliwag outspeeds. So yes, speed boost is the only thing that broke Blaziken. Not that I want to unban any form of Blaziken, I just wanted to point that amusing statistic out.

 

[Virizion]

I know the difference, and I wasn't stating my opinion. People want to know why Blaze was banned. That is the rule. I was just laying it out for them.



Well, then what about Illuminate Starmie, that's not gonna be OU. Or Inner Focus Dragonite. What about Zen Mode Darmanitan or Flash Fire Ninetales?

Thing is, once you re-tier 1 Pokemon, you have to do it with all. Not only is that not practical, but all it will probably do is make UU almost exactly like OU but with inferior abilities.

A Pokemon is a Pokemon. It includes all it's moves, abilities, stats and types. Our job is to tier Pokemon. Not tier different versions of Pokemon.

Deoxys says hello. They're different versions of the exact same Pokémon, aren't they? They all have the exact same Pokédex number, don't they? Two of them are in Ubers, so that must mean the other two are broken as well. By what others claim, they should all be Uber again like in past generations since Blaziken is "fully broken" no matter which ability he has; even though in reality, he'd be top-tier UU at best if Blaze Blaziken were unbanned.

 

[Roosh]

252 LO Modest Poliwag Surf on 4/0 Adamant Blaziken: 98-116%. Poliwag outspeeds. So yes, speed boost is the only thing that broke Blaziken. Not that I want to unban any form of Blaziken, I just wanted to point that amusing statistic out.

Wait...are you serious? BAHAHAHA

 

[Downf4ll]

Deoxys says hello. They're different versions of the exact same Pokémon, aren't they? They all have the exact same Pokédex number, don't they? Two of them are in Ubers, so that must mean the other two are broken as well. By what others claim, they should all be Uber again like in past generations since Blaziken is "fully broken" no matter which ability he has; even though in reality, he'd be top-tier UU at best if Blaze Blaziken were unbanned.

You have a valid point there, but I don't think the person you were replying to worded what he said correctly. How about this; every pokemon with different stats, or a different pokedex entry is considered a different pokemon. That might not be the rule since I kind of just made it up, but it would justify a lot of bans.

Tell me, do you play UU often? Do you look at every UU team you make and go "I wish I had blaze blaziken". Would you (or anyone) use him if he was BL? Do you believe that the addition of a complex ban is less detrimental than the removal of SB Blaziken from the metagame?

Would I be correct in saying that the fact that you answer yes to any or all of these questions would be the basis of your argument? If not, why do you advocate the unbanning of blaziken?

I know this is quite a lot of questions, but hell, if you answer at least one of them this'll make this debate way less ambiguous. I hope we can agree that clear cut perspectives make this debate a lot shorter and much easier to deal with.

 

[truevillany]

Then consider this: a Pokémon when made suspect, is always considered when fighting at its fullest potential. Blaziken is at its fullest potential when using Speed Boost. An ability doesn't make a Pokémon a different mon any more than using a different nature or a different moveset does. If you truly feel it does, start lobbying for a change in that.

I am not lobbying for anything. I dont really care that much. I think this way of thinking about a specific character is absolutely wrong. It still does not make any sense. For example. I character Like Slaking who is currently NU because of its debilitating ability Truant. For hypothetical purposes lets say it get an ability like cute charm, which really isn't going to make any difference other than getting its current ability gone. Are you actually ensinuating that it is still Slaking with its real ability should be grouped into the same classification as slaking without? Obviously I am well aware that hypotheticals are not the best thing touse to prove a point, but I think you can see where I am going with this.

Now, it's my turn to ask a question: why is keeping Blaze Blaziken important?

It really isn't. I am trying to understand the process in which things get banned and dont get banned. Blaziken is simply an example. I went 10 pages back and watched as people shouted @ each other about what got banned and shouldn't be and people taking stuff personally. So I really want to understand the way things are banned in competitive pokemon.

Why should we keep intentionally weakened versions of Pokémon around?

What? Are you saying that he cannot be or should not be used at all since blaze is clearly not as good as speed boost?

Why should we place unique and ridiculous restrictions on a Pokémon to keep it OU or UU or whatever?

Damn... hostile are we? When did I ever even suggest this?

Why would this be a good thing to place in so many rules and restrictions just to keep certain Pokémon in certain tiers? Not just Blaziken, but any Pokémon that isn't allowed in whatever tiers.

I dont understand certain bans/rules as they are... A few are kinda crazy in my opinion. It is clear that there area good amount of people who feel one way and a good amount who feel the other, supporting and being against certain bans... the proof is in the last 15 pages of text on this thread. All of which have valid points here and there between all the douchbaggery.

The point is, there is no difference between the two. Blaziken is Blaziken. That's it. If there were different stats or typing, they would be tiered differently, but a different ability is no different than a different moveset. A good comparison is 4th gen Rotom-A. Despite the fact that only Rotom-W and Rotom-H saw large enough usage to even be OU, they were all essentially the same but with different movesets, so they were tiered together.

Ryu and Ken have the same movepool. Do they play the same way? No. Granted, entirely different game and genre and stuff, but that is not the point. I cannot agree with this statement @ all. There is a clear difference between reg blaziken and sb blaziken. I think we all agree on this. How then they are the same pokemon when one has a golden ability and another has a copper one is really REALLY wierd. Feels like I am in the Twilight Zone almost, because you guys obviously know what you are talking about, but then again in statements like this, it seems as if you do not.

One Tier Per Pokemon. That's how it works.

So... this is the end all... undisputed... cannot be changed rule? forever? who said this?

I was going to ask why in heavens are people still trying to bring down Blaziken for some ridiculous entitlement argument (hint: HJK and Speed Boost were equally important for Blaziken's Uber voting), but I read the OP more carefully just now and
Why exactly are we allowed to discuss bringing Blaziken down but couldn't discuss Manaphy/Deoxys-N/etc last Round? Why does Blaziken deserve to be re-tested more than the other former suspects?

I Just want to get any idea about the basis on which things are banned. It just didnt make sense to me that sb blaziken is uber and reg blaziken isnt... I dont not think I am wrong for trying to get a better understanding.

The first is that Speed Boost isn't the only factor that made Blaziken so good and, in the suspect voters' eyes, ban-worthy. Half of what made Blaziken so goddamn awesome was that it had a 130 base power Hi Jump Kick; its best Fighting STAB before was Superpower <.< If Tentacruel didn't have to invest heavily in Def to survive a +2 HJK (for example), Blaziken would have been quite a bit less broken. And that's not even talking about the existing Fire STABs Flare Blitz and Fire Blast off 120/110 offenses. It's extremely rare to have one factor break a Pokémon.

Finally. Someone who has @ least given a reason that makes some sense. I can now do some calcs to see what he is talking about. I wish I had an opportunity to battle with this guy to see just how good he got even without speed boost in a competitve battle. Guess I will never know