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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Argh, I barely gonna be able to ladder at all this summer! I wanna play in the new, non-Chomp meta!!
I certainly hope that this ends all complaints of SandStorm. Excadrill has been voted OU 4 times, whereas Terrakion and Landorus hardly even get talked about, let alone nommed. Thundurus will prolly get banned next round, because now that they can't spam HaxChomp, a lot of people will have no-good teams, and therefore resort to Drizzle (and by extension, Thundurus).
And if people start using Latios on their rain teams, to beat Tar and Rachi... Well, maybe it won't be that bad. Latios served as a check to Chomp (when it didn't have a Sub up), and now that it doesn't need to do that anymore, it's usage might not go up that much.
Plus, with Chomp gone there might be fewer Sand teams, meaning less Gliscor needed as well. The sudden drop in EQ usage would make Tar and Rachi's lives much easier to check Latios (out of Rain, and Sun in Rachi's case, that is).
Of course, if Latios is used in Rain, then it can't beat Ferrothorn with HP Fire. But if it's used in Sun, it can't beat Tar. So it'll never be totally impossible to handle.
And of course, we still have strong priority/Scarfers to kill it. And things like Raikou/Starmie.
I wish that DetroitLolcat had gotten rid of Thundurus, but it was his call, not mine, so who am I to criticize? Otherwise, I'm very pleased with how the Pokemon vote turned out.
I just realized, I predicted the turnout perfectly. Yay me.
I certainly hope that this ends all complaints of SandStorm. Excadrill has been voted OU 4 times, whereas Terrakion and Landorus hardly even get talked about, let alone nommed. Thundurus will prolly get banned next round, because now that they can't spam HaxChomp, a lot of people will have no-good teams, and therefore resort to Drizzle (and by extension, Thundurus).
And if people start using Latios on their rain teams, to beat Tar and Rachi... Well, maybe it won't be that bad. Latios served as a check to Chomp (when it didn't have a Sub up), and now that it doesn't need to do that anymore, it's usage might not go up that much.
Plus, with Chomp gone there might be fewer Sand teams, meaning less Gliscor needed as well. The sudden drop in EQ usage would make Tar and Rachi's lives much easier to check Latios (out of Rain, and Sun in Rachi's case, that is).
Of course, if Latios is used in Rain, then it can't beat Ferrothorn with HP Fire. But if it's used in Sun, it can't beat Tar. So it'll never be totally impossible to handle.
And of course, we still have strong priority/Scarfers to kill it. And things like Raikou/Starmie.
I wish that DetroitLolcat had gotten rid of Thundurus, but it was his call, not mine, so who am I to criticize? Otherwise, I'm very pleased with how the Pokemon vote turned out.
I just realized, I predicted the turnout perfectly. Yay me.
I doubt that Landorus will be able to fill Garchomp's place. It is a strong ground-type, yes, but in exchange for the ability to KO Gliscor with HP Ice, it trades some pretty key resists/neutralities (fire, water, rock) and general bulk. Not only that, but Dragon STAB is simply excellent; Landorus won't be making use of its flying-type other than ground and fighting resists (which are admittedly useful).
It will be much easier to exploit choiced Landorus than it was ChoiceChomp. I'm thinking Sub + 3 Attacks or SubSD + 2 Attacks will probably be most useful.
EDIT: Meanwhile, that's one less check for DDMence and Volcarona, as well as TWave Thundurus.
It will be much easier to exploit choiced Landorus than it was ChoiceChomp. I'm thinking Sub + 3 Attacks or SubSD + 2 Attacks will probably be most useful.
EDIT: Meanwhile, that's one less check for DDMence and Volcarona, as well as TWave Thundurus.
How could Landorus take chomp's place? Sure, it's probably gonna rise in usage, but it can't use gamebreaking hax. Also, I think maybe, no Garchomp will mean less sand, but I'm kind of expecting Bronzong to possibly drop to UU in a couple months, as it was actually a good Chomp counter, but not that good at much else.
I find anything other than OTR Bronzong to be almost useless, IMO. The lack of weaknesses in rain is nice (it still has to deal with boosted water attacks), but it doesn't really do anything after it uses Stealth Rock with the exception of wall a select group of threats (Tornadus, Excadrill, Landorus). Most fighting-type sweepers can break through it, Latios can break through it with weather support, Reuniclus isn't bothered by it, etc. It has its uses, but I find that other things do them better.
Pretty much. In Gen 4 he would usually just blow up after he did whatever he came in to do, since he had no recovery and couldn't threaten much of anything that took little from Gyro Ball or was neutral to or resisted Earthquake (which was a lot). If you were to make a list ranking the things the explosion nerf fucked over most Bronzong would rank pretty high up there.
Landorus is not going to replace Garchomp in the literal sense, I don't believe I have to explain this one. As far as Sand teams go, however, it will become a staple. Now that there is no longer a base 102 Speed tier in OU, 101 is the new hot shit and Landorus is both powerful and versatile enough to sweep just as many, if not more teams than Garchomp.
I do not expect it to go top ten so quickly, however; I predict there will be an even split between it and Gliscor in terms of usage, since doubled weaknesses and redundancy issues dictate there's no reason use them on the same team.
I do not expect it to go top ten so quickly, however; I predict there will be an even split between it and Gliscor in terms of usage, since doubled weaknesses and redundancy issues dictate there's no reason use them on the same team.
You are a player with a voice. That was entirely bullshit and he posted in this thread not too long after just to brag about it, making a joke of the entire suspect process. Now I'm beginning to think there needs to be a dumbass filter to round out voting reqs.
From my experience every single time this happened
I switch in Landorus, they use SD. Then I fail to OHKO and get KO'd back. Infuriating, but it happened every time. I only beat one Gliscor with Landorus and that was a crit :/
Landorus can OHKO Gliscor with even a Jolly nature so long as it has LO and Gliscor isn't running any SpD.
You shouldn't be switching Landorus into Gliscor, anyway. That's a dead giveaway that you are packing a way to deal with it aka HP Ice.
You shouldn't be switching Landorus into Gliscor, anyway. That's a dead giveaway that you are packing a way to deal with it aka HP Ice.
Maybe, just maybe...Latios is not broken.
Someone can't recognize a joke :justin:
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So it seems pretty agreed upon that Landorus (and to a lesser extent, Terrakion) will increase in usage as they replace Garchomp as the main sweepr on many Sand teams. However, I'm wondering who you guys think will replace Garchomp as a Scarfer? The above two seem like likely candidates, but there are numerous other possibilities. Mienshao seems like it could possibly take up the buck, although it's very different than Chomp was. Perhaps we may see things like Scarf Lati@s or Scarf Starmie return, although I personally doubt those. I feel like whoever comes up will end up being similar to Chomp.
I would ask the same about BandChomp, but almost no one used that. :( Same for Tank Chomp.
Broken, maybe not. But hey, it's still fucking Latios. You know, that thing with 130 base special attack with what might be the best possible STAB in the game? And can outspeed a fair chunk of the metagame?
That thing that can liquify anything that isn't SpDef T-Tar, Steel-typed or a member of the Blissey family? Yeah that guy, he's still OU for some reason that is completely beyond my comprehension. It doesn't even have the decency to get shit on by entry hazards like Volcarona, so checking it that way is out. And now that ScarfChomp has gone back to jail, there's one less thing running around standard that can scare it away.
Which, to be quite honest, is really the only reason people continue to complain about him (that, and its checks were freely set up on by Blaziken, who was still roaming OU in the Round that Latios got the simple majority vote).
There are quite a few things that are steel-typed for anti-Latios cries to pretend they are a single category. Heatran, Metagross, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Scizor are just 5 of the viable OU steels, and they can all deal with Latios while playing differently enough to merit individual consideration. It is depressingly weak to priority (doesn't even have Flame Body as a consolation prize), and does not resist Stealth Rock or any form of status.
While it isn't frail, it certainly isn't bulky and will take a decent chunk from any attack it switches into. SpecsLatios becomes extreme setup bait once it attacks (and there are plenty of things that can sponge that Draco Meteor), while LO CM Latios is even more susceptible to 4MSS and passive damage.
Even LO CMLatios in the rain, which I find to be Latios' most effective set, has issues getting past its main counters (Tar brings the sand with it, Ferrothorn no longer has to worry about HP Fire, SpD Metagross can take a hit and strike back, Jirachi can potentially take 2 hits and paralyze, etc). The main use of the rain is to hit Scizor for the OHKO (which, even then, isn't guaranteed without rocks).
Latios on its own is nothing special. Latios with support is just that - a sweeper with support. Hell, I've been running CB Staraptor lately and have been more impressed, since it can actually fire off consecutive, boosted hits without becoming complete set up fodder.
Notice how I did not mention Surf or HP Fire when talking about Latios, which anti-Latios users will be quick to cite as the reason for SpecsLatios being broken. I'll say it now before someone tries that argument - if you are predicting, you aren't really muscling past anything, you are predicting. The side countering Latios can thus do the same.
Scarf Mienshao can outrun Volcarona (which is really the only +1 sweeper you need to be concerned about other than Mence) and has Stone Edge for them. Meanwhile, U-Turn and HJK let it scout/recover health and dish out damage at the same time, respectively. Those defenses don't matter as much when you are revenge killing.
Scarf Terrakion is beastly. Close Combat / Stone Edge / X-Scissor / Filler works wonders, with anything from EQ to Quick Attack taking up the last slot. It is fairly bulky (particularly in Sand), outruns a large portion of the metagame even without the scarf, is nearly as strong as Garchomp statistically and has a 120 BP attack it can fire off at will without being locked in (it may not affect ghosts, but you didn't see Chomp Outrage-sweeping until steels were removed). It's looking like one of the more viable physical scarfers, IMO, especially for DDNite (whose Extremespeed it resists).
Scarf Landorus, as mentioned, isn't as great as Garchomp, but it is still good. 130 BP attacks in sand (and a solid 100 otherwise) along with U-Turn and a filler move usually cover the revenge-killing needs. It has the Thunder Wave immunity that Garchomp had (along with Spikes and TSpikes), which helps against Thundurus, too. Base 101 speed still trolls Mence/Volcarona, which is what counts as far as Scarf goes.
Scarf Infernape has its uses as well with a great Fire STAB to back up its fighting moves. U-Turn, Close Combat, Flare Blitz, Stone Edge cover what you need it to, and base 108 speed is still great. While frail, it does at least resist Bullet Punch and Sucker Punch. Infernape also gains a benefit from being used under Drought conditions, and is capable of outrunning even Venusaur. It does tend to hit a bit weaker than the other three I listed, but high base power moves and the general frailty of boosting sweepers helps remedy that issue.
Special scarfers I find to be a bit less effective, but they do exist. Starmie is great (water moves discourage Tar from switching in in particular, which is nice), Infernape can run a special scarf set, Gengar and Azelf are decent. The problem is that special scarfers are frail to begin with and often weak to Pursuit. Raikou is another option - even with a Rash nature, it will outspeed Mence and Volcarona by 1 point, allowing it to run Aura Sphere / Weather Ball / Thunderbolt / HP Ice and still fulfill its scarfer duties.
Obviously those are all assuming that you need a scarfer to revenge +1 threats. If you just want something to outspeed unboosted pokemon, the options are pretty open.
Round 5: Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the Sandstorm....
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