Super Smash Bros 64, Melee, and Brawl thread

The OP is ridiculously gibberish.

I play Brawl
Um no, that post was a well written post simply using technical terms and abbreviations that competitive smashers would know. However, seeing as it wasn't that long ago that i became competitive, i understand how it can come across that way.
 
Um no, that post was a well written post simply using technical terms and abbreviations that competitive smashers would know. However, seeing as it wasn't that long ago that i became competitive, i understand how it can come across that way.
Dude, jeez. Not everyone knows about competitive smash.
 
Can we stop fighting and just all get along? =/

Anyway, my main problem with Brawl is how ridiculously easy it has become that even gamers who have never played the franchise can find themselves kicking ass.
 
Can we stop fighting and just all get along? =/

Anyway, my main problem with Brawl is how ridiculously easy it has become that even gamers who have never played the franchise can find themselves kicking ass.
You really think so? I honestly think I picked up melee faster then I did brawl, btw what characters do you like to use?
 
Well by the same token, I like Melee and all but I'll admit that it is ridiculously (perhaps unreasonably) hard to get good at.

I main CF and it took over six solid months of practice to get to where I could control him reasonably well. Even after two years I still can't do everything I need to with Fox, let alone apply it in a tournament match.

So I guess I can kind of understand where they were going with trying to level the playing field in Brawl (even if I don't like it either and I think it stales the playing experience quicker for everyone).
 
Yeah, though i am a wee bit mad at sakurai for messing up brawl in terms of competitiveness, i can see where he is coming from. Fact is, melee is VERY hard to get really good at, and i got 5th in a brawl tourney after havnig not played it in 3 years, and even then i had only played it a total of 8 times.
 
Ima brawl n00bie, it was the first game in the series I had, so i got used to it. I have tried melee, and I think it is a good game, but brawl will forever hold a place in my fighting game career.
 
I really don't think Melee is that hard to get good at-- at least, it doesn't "have" to be while still retaining all of the aspects that make it a unique and compelling competitive game. You could strip away some of the arbitrary execution barriers, like L-cancelling and tight short-hop timing windows, and you'd probably have a game that's considerably less taxing than pretty much any traditional fighting game (certainly easier to get into). So I think Sakurai is pretty much bullshitting by trying to pass off tripping and floaty, slow characters as valid design solutions for Melee's "difficulty." I think he was probably just afraid of casual players becoming alienated by online play.
 
You really think so? I honestly think I picked up melee faster then I did brawl, btw what characters do you like to use?
I've managed to pick up Brawl in a matter of hours. Melee, even after months of playing the game, I am still "Just decent". Brawl is undoubtedly easier because the physics engine has made the game slower.

Comboing is a strong technique used in fighting games, and melee is no exception. No matter what character you use in melee you have to use the right set of attacks to pull off a formidable maneuver. Brawl's slower speed gives players a WAY higher chance to dodge an attack immediately after the opponent hits you. This makes comboing completely unnecessary and thus you don't need to focus on what skills you can implement in the game rather just how familiar you are with the character.

Along with how easy it is to evade your opponent's attacks, a player's reaction rate is easier to pull off in Brawl. This gives falling off the stage a much easier evasion and dramatically decreases the death rate. The addition of the Smash Balls makes characters that much easier to abuse the damage-ratio in the game. A simple press of button can immensely increase the opponent's percentage rate in a matter of seconds. In just one match a player can learn the entire attacks of a character then swiftly pull them off in another match.

Brawl is simply for the casual gamer, you don't need to put much effort into it to be good. Melee, on the other hand, would require a large amount of practice and experimentation in order to rank yourself as "Good". If you try to play competitive Brawl, well that's a different story.


As for my character preference:

SSB:
Link, Mario

SSB:Melee
Peach, Samus, Kirby, Pikachu

SSB:Brawl
Kirby, Samus, Jigglypuff, Pit, Pokemon Trainer
 
I really don't think Melee is that hard to get good at--
I couldn't disagree more. Even though I haven't really played many other fighting games, Melee is really REALLY hard to get good at. L-Cancel and short hops are the super basics. For the most part, all tech skill isn't too hard to master. The fast pace of the game forces you to react almost immediately; getting used to and learning what you should do in what situations is what's hard.
 
I've managed to pick up Brawl in a matter of hours. Melee, even after months of playing the game, I am still "Just decent". Brawl is undoubtedly easier because the physics engine has made the game slower.

Comboing is a strong technique used in fighting games, and melee is no exception. No matter what character you use in melee you have to use the right set of attacks to pull off a formidable maneuver. Brawl's slower speed gives players a WAY higher chance to dodge an attack immediately after the opponent hits you. This makes comboing completely unnecessary and thus you don't need to focus on what skills you can implement in the game rather just how familiar you are with the character.

Along with how easy it is to evade your opponent's attacks, a player's reaction rate is easier to pull off in Brawl. This gives falling off the stage a much easier evasion and dramatically decreases the death rate. The addition of the Smash Balls makes characters that much easier to abuse the damage-ratio in the game. A simple press of button can immensely increase the opponent's percentage rate in a matter of seconds. In just one match a player can learn the entire attacks of a character then swiftly pull them off in another match.

Brawl is simply for the casual gamer, you don't need to put much effort into it to be good. Melee, on the other hand, would require a large amount of practice and experimentation in order to rank yourself as "Good". If you try to play competitive Brawl, well that's a different story.


As for my character preference:

SSB:
Link, Mario

SSB:Melee
Peach, Samus, Kirby, Pikachu

SSB:Brawl
Kirby, Samus, Jigglypuff, Pit, Pokemon Trainer
Ah, I guess we are just at a crossroads then, when I got into brawl I thought the very same thing, but now that I got into competitive Brawl, I know for a fact that it takes a lot more work to get good then it was then in Melee, or at least with Link. As you probably know, Link is second from the bottom on the Brawl tier, yet he has the most diverse advanced technique pool in Brawl, and each one is relative hard to pull off, whereas in Melee Link mostly depended on Lag cancel and very few character exclusive techs. I guess its all in the perspective. ;)
 
Exclusive tech really doesn't mean much compared to all the things in melee you need to have a strict timing of. I can guarantee you right now that playing anything in melee is harder than in brawl. It might just be because of the level of competition though.

I played Ice Climbers and Peach in SSBM, and since there was no real scene for SSBB in any arcade places around here in VA (partly because SSf4 came out and most people would rather play that). But when playing SSBB casuals against some of the people who practice it a lot the skill difference is next to none.
 
Ah, I guess we are just at a crossroads then, when I got into brawl I thought the very same thing, but now that I got into competitive Brawl, I know for a fact that it takes a lot more work to get good then it was then in Melee, or at least with Link. As you probably know, Link is second from the bottom on the Brawl tier, yet he has the most diverse advanced technique pool in Brawl, and each one is relative hard to pull off, whereas in Melee Link mostly depended on Lag cancel and very few character exclusive techs. I guess its all in the perspective. ;)
Personally, I think you have to do more work for all characters to be good in melee. Kirby is hands down, my favorite Nintendo character, it shouldn't come as a surprise I would prefer him out of the list in both melee and brawl. What I found really wonderful was how Brawl up'd the damage ratio and evasiveness on Kirby compared to melee. This allows me to spam the crap out of the lil guy.

Kirby is who I use for competitive brawl. I can easily spam my moves and avoid counters that I will up my foe's percentage ratio incredibly high while I stay at a low 10-20%. It's just one of the few perks to Brawl; they made it easy enough that nearly impossible character maneuvers in melee can be pulled off in brawl.
 
The only thing I regret about brawl is that Roy wasn't included, I actually quite liked him and I considered myself great with him. I like what they did with Ganny in Brawl, made him alot more fun to use. :)
 
Kirby is who I use for competitive brawl. I can easily spam my moves and avoid counters that I will up my foe's percentage ratio incredibly high while I stay at a low 10-20%. It's just one of the few perks to Brawl; they made it easy enough that nearly impossible character maneuvers in melee can be pulled off in brawl.
Yes well due to Brawl's infinite air dodges and zero hitlag (laugh at kids going Nair at >60%) it makes Brawl horrible to play, and way too easy. You just can't get punished for your mistakes at all. Hence Brawl is "easy", but probably the most complete of the 3 games outside of the competitive arena.

Compare that to melee where basically the first tiny slip up was an instant life loss. This also means that melee has much faster, exciting and aggressive gameplay. Although Melee was not without its faults admittedly.

SSB is great to further your competitive fighting reactions, but between the developer's ignorance in terms of game balance, wavedashing and hitstuning (L cancel is actually good for the game imo) I think most serious players tend to steer away from tournaments, etc. But it's always fun to smash anyone who has zero competitive experience in SSB, because all casual players think they're gods when the beat a level 9 cpu ~~.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
Daniel, you do also realize that Melee Link is twice as technical as Brawl Link, and that unlike Brawl Link, Melee's options actually give you reward, where Brawl's version is needlessly technical for a character that gives next to nothing in return for you efforts, mainly because of how bad Link is.

The point isn't that Brawl takes no skill- it's that Melee objectively takes more skill than Brawl and that Brawl practically doesn't reward the player for skill.
 

WaterBomb

Two kids no brane
is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Moderator
My friends and I would all get together after school in High School and play SSB64 and Goldeneye. I got pretty good with Samus in 64, and continued to use her in Melee (on the rare occasions I played it), even though she got nerfed. I bought a Wii and Brawl, but didn't play it a whole lot because it was so graphic intensive I had trouble keeping track of everything that was going on.

Back to the SSB64, my favorite move was a Down+A from above while my target was on the ground, bouncing them up in the air for a powerful Swing Kick (Jump + Reverse Direction + A). If the opponent was anywhere above 50-60% damage this attack would usually kill them, unless the map was excessively wide (Hyrule Castle and Spaceship, I'm looking at you). For normal damage I relied alot on Samus's very quick L/R Smash attack, or her upward Smash for enemies overhead. I almost exclusively used Samus, but occasionally I'd use Link for shits and giggles.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
Samus nerfed? Samus was trash in 64 and rather solid in Melee. Maybe its cause in Smash 64 youre used to just being able to 0 death everyone, where in Melee that was no longer possible... and just didn't adapt your playstyle to the new Melee keep away game Samus has... her Melee incarnation was easily her best out of the games.
 
The point isn't that Brawl takes no skill- it's that Melee objectively takes more skill than Brawl and that Brawl practically doesn't reward the player for skill.
tech skill isnt the only kind of skill required in melee or brawl; thats why you dont see players like Silent Wolf (who has ridiculous tech skill) take top spots at national tournaments in melee

brawl doesnt reward players as much as melee for having tech skill, but it rewards players much more for playing smart and reading your opponents' movement/actions (not that melee players are stupid or anything like that, obviously players like PP/mango/hbox/armada/m2k play incredibly smart AND have good tech skill)

and to address one of your earlier posts about people caring more about brawl hacks/melee than brawl on smashboards: nah man
 
tech skill isnt the only kind of skill required in melee or brawl; thats why you dont see players like Silent Wolf (who has ridiculous tech skill) take top spots at national tournaments in melee

brawl doesnt reward players as much as melee for having tech skill, but it rewards players much more for playing smart and reading your opponents' movement/actions (not that melee players are stupid or anything like that, obviously players like PP/mango/hbox/armada/m2k play incredibly smart AND have good tech skill)

and to address one of your earlier posts about people caring more about brawl hacks/melee than brawl on smashboards: nah man



I would have to disagree with you and say that melee takes just as much prediction and spacing as brawl, it just looks a lot different.
 
Daniel, you do also realize that Melee Link is twice as technical as Brawl Link, and that unlike Brawl Link, Melee's options actually give you reward, where Brawl's version is needlessly technical for a character that gives next to nothing in return for you efforts, mainly because of how bad Link is.

The point isn't that Brawl takes no skill- it's that Melee objectively takes more skill than Brawl and that Brawl practically doesn't reward the player for skill.
Ouch, thats like twisting a knife into my heart when you say that, :( I just can't help but disagree with that, but as always people are entitled to their own opinion. Besides, I like working hard for my kill, thats how much I like Link, and I genuinely have more fun playing Brawl's Link then Melee's. There is only one thing I don't like about Brawl's Link, and that is his look, but that is easily changeable with texture hacks. :)
 
The point isn't that Brawl takes no skill- it's that Melee objectively takes more skill than Brawl and that Brawl practically doesn't reward the player for skill.
Agreeing with Phiddlesticks. Technical skill has never been the only subset of fighting game skills tested in the Smash Bros. series. It may have been the subset most stressed in Melee, but it's not the only one out there. Even if you look at other fighting games, tech skill isn't the only skill tested; you have familiarity with characters' moves and metagame, yomi (the act of conditioning the opponent so that you can essentially read their moves ahead of time), reaction time/option assessment, zoning, spacing, and even knowing the game beyond the characters, just to name a few. You also have stage knowledge when playing in the Smash Bros. series. Then you have technical skill, which is just performing combos by rote and being able to optimally input commands when necessary. Just because Brawl doesn't stress this one aspect of fighting game skill, it does not mean it takes objectively less skill than Melee. I could make the argument that de-emphasizing the importance of tech skill in Brawl actually places more relative importance on the other skills necessary to be a good player, essentially just trading some of the value of tech skill in favor of more importance on things such as spacing and smart reads. The fact that I can even make such an argument helps point out that it really is a subjective view on what game takes more or less skill, and comes down to how a player individually places value on these intangibles.

It boils down to your preference. I opted out of making this a bigger deal than it is, because I'm not on Smashboards so a lengthy debate between us would turn off everyone else.
 
It boils down to your preference. I opted out of making this a bigger deal than it is, because I'm not on Smashboards so a lengthy debate between us would turn off everyone else.
Agree, I apologize I stated up this needless debate into the thread. Everyone is entitled to their preferences to the franchise so something as silly as which takes more skill shouldn't be brought into a thread dedicated to loving the franchise as a whole.
 

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