It doesn't even have to be mix-Tar, if Forretress is hit by any other attack such as Stone Edge, Revenge gets buffed to 120 BP, coming off a respectable 300 Atk stat that's not bad at all. I never realised how good Forretress' attack was when invested until recently... it can actually outdamage Bronzong.
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Creative (and good) Movesets (READ THE OP FIRST)
- Thread starter sax king
- Start date
- Status
When using that forretress set, you do lose a lot of defensive capabilities, but I guess toxic spijes will be guaranteed anyhow. Nice set, I will use it!
Xatu@leftovers
Ability: Magic bounce
Bold
252 HP, 252 def, 4 sdef
Calm mind
Reflect
Roost
Psychic
Set up reflect and start Calm Minding, heal off damage with roost and start your sweep. Works best late game when dark and bulky steel/psychic pokemon and chansey are eliminated.
This set can be hard to stop because it can't get phazed and is immune to status.
Ability: Magic bounce
Bold
252 HP, 252 def, 4 sdef
Calm mind
Reflect
Roost
Psychic
Set up reflect and start Calm Minding, heal off damage with roost and start your sweep. Works best late game when dark and bulky steel/psychic pokemon and chansey are eliminated.
This set can be hard to stop because it can't get phazed and is immune to status.
Dragon Tail can p-haze Xatu though. Milotic walks all over you with her high Special Defense and ability to get you out.
Xatu works great in a "last-Pokemon" situation since not even D-Tail can kick it out then.
Xatu works great in a "last-Pokemon" situation since not even D-Tail can kick it out then.
Hydreigon playing poker
Hydreigon @ Lum berry
Ability: levitate
Ev's: 184 Sp.Atk, 72 Atk, 252 Speed
Nature: Naive (+ speed, - Sp.Def)
- Work Up
- Dragon Pulse
- Dark Pulse/ Flamethrower/ Surf
- Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw
This set is simply to take down walls who will try to stop you from sweeping. The key to getting this to be affective does rely down to predicting switches and a whole lot of bluffing. Simply Switch into a Blissey, Chansey or what have you, and use work up, by this time your opponent would think you are about to use a physical move as there is no reason to use work up, thus switching out granting you a +1 in Sp.A and Atk. then the prediction begins...
Either the opponents switches and you predict correctly by using a special attack of your choice Dragon Pulse and Dark pulse for STAB and good coverage (except steels), or you can opt out of dark pulse and use Flamethrower for ferrothorn, skarmory, or forretress,or use Surf for Heatran or HP ICE Gliscor.
Your Physical move is if your opponent calls your bluff, and stays in. Simply make them seem foolish by using either Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw, all moves grant you stab and with a +1 from your work up can easily KO the Special Wall you are facing.
The Lum Berry grants you a free status recovery incase your opponent using status moves like T-Wave, Toxic... or Will-O-Wisp for some reason.
I have tried this out on many battles with my friends and i find this set to be extremely effective to Chansey, Blissey, and when i use Crunch: Jellicent, 3 Pokemon you realy want to get rid of, if you have a special oriented team.
Hydreigon @ Lum berry
Ability: levitate
Ev's: 184 Sp.Atk, 72 Atk, 252 Speed
Nature: Naive (+ speed, - Sp.Def)
- Work Up
- Dragon Pulse
- Dark Pulse/ Flamethrower/ Surf
- Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw
This set is simply to take down walls who will try to stop you from sweeping. The key to getting this to be affective does rely down to predicting switches and a whole lot of bluffing. Simply Switch into a Blissey, Chansey or what have you, and use work up, by this time your opponent would think you are about to use a physical move as there is no reason to use work up, thus switching out granting you a +1 in Sp.A and Atk. then the prediction begins...
Either the opponents switches and you predict correctly by using a special attack of your choice Dragon Pulse and Dark pulse for STAB and good coverage (except steels), or you can opt out of dark pulse and use Flamethrower for ferrothorn, skarmory, or forretress,or use Surf for Heatran or HP ICE Gliscor.
Your Physical move is if your opponent calls your bluff, and stays in. Simply make them seem foolish by using either Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw, all moves grant you stab and with a +1 from your work up can easily KO the Special Wall you are facing.
The Lum Berry grants you a free status recovery incase your opponent using status moves like T-Wave, Toxic... or Will-O-Wisp for some reason.
I have tried this out on many battles with my friends and i find this set to be extremely effective to Chansey, Blissey, and when i use Crunch: Jellicent, 3 Pokemon you realy want to get rid of, if you have a special oriented team.
Hmm Lum berry is good for status, but it may cost you some very important power to OHKO some inportant threats, but I'm not sure about that. I really like the idea of mixed Hydreigon though. You also are priority weak, so some Hp investments may be needed.
Ok this is a Toxiccroakset brought up by a Benelux team member of me: Mynism:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Ev's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -Def
- Cross Chop
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
This is our Mynicroak. It is so danegrous and beats most of the bulk up walls. Most noticable is the fact that Croak can OHKO Gliscor after a SD, something a Bulk Up croak can't manage. Cross Chop because drain punch can't go with ice punch and gives more power as well. Sucker Punch gives some good priority and ice punch is the final coverage move.
This thing is an absolute beast in rain because LO damage get's negated every turn because of Rain Dish and it is an anti-metagame pokemon overall.
Ok this is a Toxiccroakset brought up by a Benelux team member of me: Mynism:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Ev's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -Def
- Cross Chop
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch
- Swords Dance
This is our Mynicroak. It is so danegrous and beats most of the bulk up walls. Most noticable is the fact that Croak can OHKO Gliscor after a SD, something a Bulk Up croak can't manage. Cross Chop because drain punch can't go with ice punch and gives more power as well. Sucker Punch gives some good priority and ice punch is the final coverage move.
This thing is an absolute beast in rain because LO damage get's negated every turn because of Rain Dish and it is an anti-metagame pokemon overall.
@Twannes-That thing looks great. I'm gonna try getting that into one of my teams. Only problem with it is the same problem with all Toxicroaks; any powerful STAB attack and that thing is gone.
My set is for another monster of the swamp:
CBPert
Swampert @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -Sp. Atk)
252 HP
252 Atk
6 Speed
>Earthquake
>Waterfall/Aqua Tail
>Ice Punch/Stone Edge
>Stealth Rock/Superpower/Stone Edge
CB Swampert is very underlooked and underused in today's metagame. It hits hard off 110 Base Attack, has great defensive typing (Water/Ground), and has great mixed defensive stats (100/90/90). With these elements and the high HP investment, you don't have to worry about going first; you just use prediction and the appropriate coverage move to dish out pain to opposing mons.
Earthquake is there for reliable and powerful STAB. With Waterfall and Aqua Tail, you face a choice between more power (aqua tail) or more reliability(Waterfall). The remaining two moves are simply a question of who you want to beat. Ice Punch easily OHKOs every dragon in OU, Stone Edge offers Edgequake coverage, and Superpower deals big damage to Balloon Excadrill and Balloon Heatran. Stealth Rock allows Swampert to set up or reset hazards early or late.
My set is for another monster of the swamp:
CBPert
Swampert @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -Sp. Atk)
252 HP
252 Atk
6 Speed
>Earthquake
>Waterfall/Aqua Tail
>Ice Punch/Stone Edge
>Stealth Rock/Superpower/Stone Edge
CB Swampert is very underlooked and underused in today's metagame. It hits hard off 110 Base Attack, has great defensive typing (Water/Ground), and has great mixed defensive stats (100/90/90). With these elements and the high HP investment, you don't have to worry about going first; you just use prediction and the appropriate coverage move to dish out pain to opposing mons.
Earthquake is there for reliable and powerful STAB. With Waterfall and Aqua Tail, you face a choice between more power (aqua tail) or more reliability(Waterfall). The remaining two moves are simply a question of who you want to beat. Ice Punch easily OHKOs every dragon in OU, Stone Edge offers Edgequake coverage, and Superpower deals big damage to Balloon Excadrill and Balloon Heatran. Stealth Rock allows Swampert to set up or reset hazards early or late.
=GibleTV;3699929]Hydreigon playing poker
Hydreigon @ Lum berry
Ability: levitate
Ev's: 184 Sp.Atk, 72 Atk, 252 Speed
Nature: Naive (+ speed, - Sp.Def)
- Work Up
- Dragon Pulse
- Dark Pulse/ Flamethrower/ Surf
- Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw
[/QUOTE]
How exacly does this help against Blissey. I just did the damage calculators for this set against at blissey with 252 Hp and 252DEF. Hydregion reaches 264 Attack. and with one work up it deals between 36 to 43%, which blissey can easily shake off with softboiled. Blissey can then annoy it with thunderwave by removing the berry. then it can just softboil and thunderwave again to paralyze it.
however life orb will increase the damage to 47% minimum with a work up boost. So perhaps with a little bit more attack ev's it can do 50% minimum and then more effectively wall break blissey.
@shinyskarm
choice walls always do a great job of surprising. I normally see most people assume they have a free switch because swampert used to be used for stealth rock. so a choice attack would definitely hurt a bit
Hydreigon @ Lum berry
Ability: levitate
Ev's: 184 Sp.Atk, 72 Atk, 252 Speed
Nature: Naive (+ speed, - Sp.Def)
- Work Up
- Dragon Pulse
- Dark Pulse/ Flamethrower/ Surf
- Cruch/ Outrage/ Dragon Claw
[/QUOTE]
How exacly does this help against Blissey. I just did the damage calculators for this set against at blissey with 252 Hp and 252DEF. Hydregion reaches 264 Attack. and with one work up it deals between 36 to 43%, which blissey can easily shake off with softboiled. Blissey can then annoy it with thunderwave by removing the berry. then it can just softboil and thunderwave again to paralyze it.
however life orb will increase the damage to 47% minimum with a work up boost. So perhaps with a little bit more attack ev's it can do 50% minimum and then more effectively wall break blissey.
@shinyskarm
choice walls always do a great job of surprising. I normally see most people assume they have a free switch because swampert used to be used for stealth rock. so a choice attack would definitely hurt a bit
This set is already in the analysis...
Anyhow, its best use by far is OHKOing Ferrothorn on the switch with Superpower.
Hydreigon can't learn Dragon Claw, surprisingly. Might be because it has no true claws.
Woops my bad :/, i use crunch anyway.
Ahh, i think the person i was going against wasnt using a max def/ HP blissey then, with Stealth rock damage i did get a 2HKO though... thankyou for the imput, ill amend it soon (Y)
EV suggestments then?
Whimsicott @ Choice Scarf
Prankster
Bold 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Switcheroo
-Taunt
-Substitute
-Leech seed
This thing is fun to play around with. People rarely see switcheroo coming and the fastest +1 priority means it'll always hit, outspeeds Thundurus btw by a lot w/o investment. Sucks that it can't get Encore with Switcheroo but taunt does similar stuff. Invest in bulk to help tank hits. I used it a lot with Empoleon since it'll almost always tank whatever your opponent is scarfed onto.
Prankster
Bold 252 HP/ 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Switcheroo
-Taunt
-Substitute
-Leech seed
This thing is fun to play around with. People rarely see switcheroo coming and the fastest +1 priority means it'll always hit, outspeeds Thundurus btw by a lot w/o investment. Sucks that it can't get Encore with Switcheroo but taunt does similar stuff. Invest in bulk to help tank hits. I used it a lot with Empoleon since it'll almost always tank whatever your opponent is scarfed onto.
I was running modest with 148 Attack, 108 SPA and 252 SPE. the attack ev's will allow for the 2OHKO for max HP max DEF blissey after a work up boost with crunch. I stuck with a naive nature to ensure max speed possible which will outrun max speed timid rotom-whatever. 108 SPA ensures an OHKO with surf to heatran with a work up boost as well. However, Hydregion will not outrun the Scarf set, but it won't kill it I think unless it uses HP ice. I'm pretty sure it will 2OHKO specially defensive after a boost. I ran this set and effectively destroyed a 5 pokes on a team with this set, however that was one run. I haven't gotten any further than that.
Kecleon @ fight Jem/leftovers
Adamant
Ev: 252 att 92 spD 166 Def
Skill swap
strength
drain punch
stealth rock/fake out
I threw this together really quickly and haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet to see if it is as cool as I hope it will be. Mostly used to get rid of that one poke your opponent has that seems to mess around with your team. Switching their ability is bad enough but when you mess with the STABs is where things could get frustrating. Fight jem is to give as much power to drain punch as possible because it probably won't get any STAB. Was thinking he would be best for a Trick Room Team.
First off, Return > Strength. Second, what if the opponent hits you before you can use Skill Swap? Then Return is no longer STABed. Thus, it'd be better off running a "non-STAB" coverage move like Sucker Punch or Rock Slide. It may go first in Trick Room, but it can set up TR on its own.
Kecleon @ fight Jem/leftovers
Adamant
Ev: 252 att 92 spD 166 Def
Skill swap
strength
drain punch
stealth rock/fake out
I threw this together really quickly and haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet to see if it is as cool as I hope it will be. Mostly used to get rid of that one poke your opponent has that seems to mess around with your team. Switching their ability is bad enough but when you mess with the STABs is where things could get frustrating. Fight jem is to give as much power to drain punch as possible because it probably won't get any STAB. Was thinking he would be best for a Trick Room Team.
tl;dr - it'd be better like this:
Kecleon@Leftovers
Brave nature
EVs: 252 At, 166 Def, 92 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
- Skill Swap
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch/Rock Slide
- Trick Room
Also, I'm sure that it said somewhere in the OP that if it hasn't been tested, it doesn't belong.
PS: Sorry for the criticism without contribution.
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I'm currently using a very effective 2 dragon/2 steel combo (Bulky Charge Beam Magnezone, Sp. Def Thunder Rachi, DD Haxorus, and the set below)
Latios @ White Herb
Timid
6 Def/252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
~Calm Mind
~Draco Meteor
~Surf
~Recover
I thought of this yesterday and I've been most impressed with it. It plays differently than Specs Latios in the fact that the intent isn't to immediately smash your opponent into an oblivion, but rather force a switch to get a Calm Mind off. If the switch is a Special Attacker, by all means, set up as much as you feel safe to. Same if they just through out death fodder. If I'm playing this early game, I will usually Calm Mind once and switch to trap their Steel type, then resume with Latios once their Steel is taken care of. I don't think the set is worth it with less than 2 Calm Minds in, because this set is more toward continual train wrecks than hit and runs. Anyway, Specs Latios hits hard.. Get 2 Calm Minds in and it can very easily be GG. Assuming you do get 2 in, you get 3 heavy hits of Draco Meteor off (2 at +2 and 1 at +0, which still hurts, mind you). I use this in Rain so Surf is at +3 (so unless you're in priority KO range, there's not much to stop you).
Latios @ White Herb
Timid
6 Def/252 Sp. Att/252 Speed
~Calm Mind
~Draco Meteor
~Surf
~Recover
I thought of this yesterday and I've been most impressed with it. It plays differently than Specs Latios in the fact that the intent isn't to immediately smash your opponent into an oblivion, but rather force a switch to get a Calm Mind off. If the switch is a Special Attacker, by all means, set up as much as you feel safe to. Same if they just through out death fodder. If I'm playing this early game, I will usually Calm Mind once and switch to trap their Steel type, then resume with Latios once their Steel is taken care of. I don't think the set is worth it with less than 2 Calm Minds in, because this set is more toward continual train wrecks than hit and runs. Anyway, Specs Latios hits hard.. Get 2 Calm Minds in and it can very easily be GG. Assuming you do get 2 in, you get 3 heavy hits of Draco Meteor off (2 at +2 and 1 at +0, which still hurts, mind you). I use this in Rain so Surf is at +3 (so unless you're in priority KO range, there's not much to stop you).
The thing about that Latios is that the more boosts you get, the less need for White Herb you have, if the information in the above post is correct. Maybe it would be a good idea to fire off an attack before setting up. If you use Draco, you get some use out of White Herb. If you use Surf, you can masquerade as a Choice user for a while. Just a thought.
Doubles combo here. The bolded parts are the bread and butter of the strategy, but the rest can be customised to whatever suits your fancy.
Shuckle (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Protect
- Rock Smash
- Bulldoze
- Guard Split
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Skill Swap
- Wish
- Protect
Maybe not little-known but certainly little-used fact: Draco Meteor Jirachi is obtainable in Gen 4 through an event. Anyway, here's how it works. On the first turn, Jirachi uses Skill Swap on Shuckle; Shuckle uses Guard Split on Jirachi. By the end of this turn, you have a Contrary Jirachi with significantly buffed defences and a Serene Grace Shuckle.
After the first turn, do whatever you want. Jirachi is the main player here, with a powerful unresisted (except Steels) move that gets stronger every time you use it (much like Serperior), defences nearing Shuckle's, a hard-to-break typing, plenty of HP and Wish/Protect. Shuckle's job is to fire stat-dropping attacks at your Jirachi, who loves the free boosts. I've found Bulldoze to be the most useful stat-lowering move in its arsenal, since it hits everything on the field. Both opponents get slower while you get faster, so it's almost like a +2 boost. Aside from that, Rock Smash pumps up your Defense (your new Serene Grace Shuckle makes the chance 100%) and you have plenty more choices at your disposal. Just don't make the mistake I made and use Struggle Bug - it only hits your opponents. It's probably the same with Acid too, I haven't checked. I just replaced it with Protect after finding this out because it's always nice to have in doubles.
Again, none of the above is set in stone apart from spamming Contrary Draco Meteor and giving yourself near-Shuckle defences. You can run a much more normal Shuckle set with stuff like Toxic if you want or give Jirachi a second attack - just have fun with it. Oh, and you can switch Shuckle out after the first turn to anything else with Overheat/Psycho Boost/Leaf Storm/etc and use Jirachi to swap Contrary onto it. As far as I know, Jirachi's boosts don't suddenly turn into drops once Contrary's gone.
You can probably do this with stuff like Latias too, but I like this particular pair the most.
Doubles combo here. The bolded parts are the bread and butter of the strategy, but the rest can be customised to whatever suits your fancy.
Shuckle (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Protect
- Rock Smash
- Bulldoze
- Guard Split
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Skill Swap
- Wish
- Protect
Maybe not little-known but certainly little-used fact: Draco Meteor Jirachi is obtainable in Gen 4 through an event. Anyway, here's how it works. On the first turn, Jirachi uses Skill Swap on Shuckle; Shuckle uses Guard Split on Jirachi. By the end of this turn, you have a Contrary Jirachi with significantly buffed defences and a Serene Grace Shuckle.
After the first turn, do whatever you want. Jirachi is the main player here, with a powerful unresisted (except Steels) move that gets stronger every time you use it (much like Serperior), defences nearing Shuckle's, a hard-to-break typing, plenty of HP and Wish/Protect. Shuckle's job is to fire stat-dropping attacks at your Jirachi, who loves the free boosts. I've found Bulldoze to be the most useful stat-lowering move in its arsenal, since it hits everything on the field. Both opponents get slower while you get faster, so it's almost like a +2 boost. Aside from that, Rock Smash pumps up your Defense (your new Serene Grace Shuckle makes the chance 100%) and you have plenty more choices at your disposal. Just don't make the mistake I made and use Struggle Bug - it only hits your opponents. It's probably the same with Acid too, I haven't checked. I just replaced it with Protect after finding this out because it's always nice to have in doubles.
Again, none of the above is set in stone apart from spamming Contrary Draco Meteor and giving yourself near-Shuckle defences. You can run a much more normal Shuckle set with stuff like Toxic if you want or give Jirachi a second attack - just have fun with it. Oh, and you can switch Shuckle out after the first turn to anything else with Overheat/Psycho Boost/Leaf Storm/etc and use Jirachi to swap Contrary onto it. As far as I know, Jirachi's boosts don't suddenly turn into drops once Contrary's gone.
You can probably do this with stuff like Latias too, but I like this particular pair the most.
You know how Bloo's Frontier team had specially defensive Gastrodon, Heatran, and Roserade, along with standard physically defensive Skarm, forming a near-impenetrable anti-weather wall? Want to meet a pokemon that threatens all four of them at the same time, and, with a good prediction or two, will take at least one out every time it switches in?
"Anti-Anti-Weather"
Empoleon @ Expert Belt / Wise Glasses
Torrent | Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
12 HP / 252 SAtk / 104 SDef / 140 Spd
- Substitute
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
First, the EVs. Max +nature SAtk is obvious to muscle through the walls' high defenses and score 1HKOs on the steels and 2HKOs on the other two. 12 HP is to hit a Substitute number, giving a Torrent boost after 3 Subs (which could help if you get a low damage roll on Surf). 140 Spd allows you to outspeed uninvested Tran and Roserade, preventing Will-o-Wisp or Sleep Powder from ruining your fun. The last 104 go into SpD to add bulk, but you can throw some more into speed if you feel the need to speed creep.
As this pokemon is anti-anti-weather, you might want to run some weather to get countered...which, in turn, you counter with this set, if that makes any sense. Rain is the condition of choice, obviously, as only the most specially defensive Tran can stand up to Empoleon's STAB, Rain, and item-boosted Surf, and even then, it just barely does so. The question of Expert Belt vs. Wise Glasses is another power/reliability conundrum, but on a slightly smaller scale than usual - the Belt guarantees Tran is OHKO'd after Rocks damage, while the Glasses ensure that 252/4 Skarm always goes down; with the Glasses, your penalty for missing predictions is slightly softer, while the Belt makes your successful predictions hurt more. You could also run Hydro Pump over Surf to make sure both half-steels go down, but for the most part Surf provides enough power more reliably. Speaking of Stealth Rock, its support is absolutely crucial to this set, breaking Skarm's Sturdy and preventing stalling from turning a 2HKO on Gastrodon into a 3HKO. Grass Knot and Ice Beam 2HKO 252/252+ Gastrodon and Roserade, respectively; the OHKO isn't completely necessary, as those two can't phaze you out on a single misprediction thanks to Substitute.
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Rain Surf vs 252/4 Skarmory: 91.62% - 107.78% (100% - 117.96%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Rain Surf vs 252/252+ Heatran: 98.7% - 116.58% (90.16% - 106.48%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Grass Knot vs 252/252+ Gastrodon: 59.62% - 70.89% (54.46% - 64.79%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Ice Beam vs 252/252+ Roserade: 64.51% - 76.79% (59.39% - 70.31%)
Heatran's only viable option is Roar and hope for an overprediction, but it's pretty useless in rain anyway. If Skarm can play smart and heal off all Rocks/non-Surf damage, it can tank a Surf thanks to Sturdy and Whirlwind Empoleon out. Gastrodon at +1 always breaks a Sub, but if it gets greedy and goes for a burn you can 2HKO it with minimal risk. Roselia is also a bit of a problem, as even -2 Leaf Storm has a 50-50 shot at breaking your Sub. However, not even a few turns of stalling can stop an Ice Beam 2HKO.
I don't know how much this set is dead weight against teams that don't run Tran/Skarm/Gastro/bulky Grass, but I think being able to combat the current best anti-weather strat with a single pokemon is worth a spot on any rain team. Also, if this set sees any sort of usage, its presence will be a way of keeping these teams honest - try to pull anything to counter this (Earth Power on an otherwise Wall-y Tran, or more SDef investment for Skarm, for instance), and your stalling is weakened against other, more mainstream teams. Try to toggle with the sets in order to counter a standard threat, and your team might become more Emp-weak. Tread with caution, anti-weather.
"Anti-Anti-Weather"
Empoleon @ Expert Belt / Wise Glasses
Torrent | Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
12 HP / 252 SAtk / 104 SDef / 140 Spd
- Substitute
- Surf
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
First, the EVs. Max +nature SAtk is obvious to muscle through the walls' high defenses and score 1HKOs on the steels and 2HKOs on the other two. 12 HP is to hit a Substitute number, giving a Torrent boost after 3 Subs (which could help if you get a low damage roll on Surf). 140 Spd allows you to outspeed uninvested Tran and Roserade, preventing Will-o-Wisp or Sleep Powder from ruining your fun. The last 104 go into SpD to add bulk, but you can throw some more into speed if you feel the need to speed creep.
As this pokemon is anti-anti-weather, you might want to run some weather to get countered...which, in turn, you counter with this set, if that makes any sense. Rain is the condition of choice, obviously, as only the most specially defensive Tran can stand up to Empoleon's STAB, Rain, and item-boosted Surf, and even then, it just barely does so. The question of Expert Belt vs. Wise Glasses is another power/reliability conundrum, but on a slightly smaller scale than usual - the Belt guarantees Tran is OHKO'd after Rocks damage, while the Glasses ensure that 252/4 Skarm always goes down; with the Glasses, your penalty for missing predictions is slightly softer, while the Belt makes your successful predictions hurt more. You could also run Hydro Pump over Surf to make sure both half-steels go down, but for the most part Surf provides enough power more reliably. Speaking of Stealth Rock, its support is absolutely crucial to this set, breaking Skarm's Sturdy and preventing stalling from turning a 2HKO on Gastrodon into a 3HKO. Grass Knot and Ice Beam 2HKO 252/252+ Gastrodon and Roserade, respectively; the OHKO isn't completely necessary, as those two can't phaze you out on a single misprediction thanks to Substitute.
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Rain Surf vs 252/4 Skarmory: 91.62% - 107.78% (100% - 117.96%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Rain Surf vs 252/252+ Heatran: 98.7% - 116.58% (90.16% - 106.48%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Grass Knot vs 252/252+ Gastrodon: 59.62% - 70.89% (54.46% - 64.79%)
252+ EB (WG) Empoleon Ice Beam vs 252/252+ Roserade: 64.51% - 76.79% (59.39% - 70.31%)
Heatran's only viable option is Roar and hope for an overprediction, but it's pretty useless in rain anyway. If Skarm can play smart and heal off all Rocks/non-Surf damage, it can tank a Surf thanks to Sturdy and Whirlwind Empoleon out. Gastrodon at +1 always breaks a Sub, but if it gets greedy and goes for a burn you can 2HKO it with minimal risk. Roselia is also a bit of a problem, as even -2 Leaf Storm has a 50-50 shot at breaking your Sub. However, not even a few turns of stalling can stop an Ice Beam 2HKO.
I don't know how much this set is dead weight against teams that don't run Tran/Skarm/Gastro/bulky Grass, but I think being able to combat the current best anti-weather strat with a single pokemon is worth a spot on any rain team. Also, if this set sees any sort of usage, its presence will be a way of keeping these teams honest - try to pull anything to counter this (Earth Power on an otherwise Wall-y Tran, or more SDef investment for Skarm, for instance), and your stalling is weakened against other, more mainstream teams. Try to toggle with the sets in order to counter a standard threat, and your team might become more Emp-weak. Tread with caution, anti-weather.
@ MaestroXXVI - It's wonderful to see more usage of Empoleon, he's my favorite starter pokemon, and pretty useful actually. My only problem with offensive empoleon is that his speed isn't nice and you sacrifice defense for offense. Despite his beautiful steel typing adding to defensive, an offensive with minimal defensive invenstment set will fall pretty fast to some of those pokemon you listed.
On my special wall Empoleon set;
255 SpAtk Heatran Earth Power vs 96 HP/255 SpDef Empoleon: 46.25% - 54.65%
2-3 hits to KO
If that's a scarftran, empoleon will most likely OHKO, but Earth power is then doing around 70%, and a KO if prior damage. Therefore, on an offensive empoleon such as yours with less defensive investment, you're looking to die much quicker, and a KO isn't guaranteed if that heatran is specially defensive. Honestly I think heatran is the main problem to get past, but you don't get to the top 20 OU without being really good. Just watch out for those strong earth powers
On my special wall Empoleon set;
255 SpAtk Heatran Earth Power vs 96 HP/255 SpDef Empoleon: 46.25% - 54.65%
2-3 hits to KO
If that's a scarftran, empoleon will most likely OHKO, but Earth power is then doing around 70%, and a KO if prior damage. Therefore, on an offensive empoleon such as yours with less defensive investment, you're looking to die much quicker, and a KO isn't guaranteed if that heatran is specially defensive. Honestly I think heatran is the main problem to get past, but you don't get to the top 20 OU without being really good. Just watch out for those strong earth powers
The aforementioned antiweather Heatran is defensive with Roar/Lava Plume/Stealth Rock/I forgot and runs no speed. Against other Heatrans, Empoleon might lose but when vsing Bloo's one, it wins hands down. I'm worried that Gastrodon could come in and threaten with Earth Power if you didn't bother to Sub, but hey, that's a playstyle thing already.
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