Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

There's no point in ranking Ambipom at all.

I'll put the reason into simple words: Ambipom is completely irrelevant, nobody uses it, and anyone who does is probably trolling the ladder.

The other tiers have an E-Rank mostly because there's a "crutch" present in the tier such as Munchlax/Dusclops who receives undeserved levels of usage. OU doesn't have any particular Pokemon who receive enough usage in the tier and are complete hindrances to every team.

 

[Magcargo]

Tornadus-I definetly has its advantages, and those are enough to puch him to A-Rank. A STAB hurricane coming off of 125 special attack is definetly going to hurt something. A base 111 speed means that tornadus is one of the faster pokemon in OU and allows it to outrun lati@s. It also has great coverage, only being resisted by Zapdos, thundorus-t and the rare Rotom-S. It also has prankster tailwind and taunt to increase its speed and shut down walls. Tornadus has improved drastically with the ban of its therian counterpart and should be A-Rank.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Although I've hesitated at first, I'm going to say I agree that Tornadus is good enough for A-rank. Of course it lacks what made Tornadus-T so overpowered (namely base 121 Speed, Regenerator and deceptive bulk), but it is still just as capable of plowing through teams with STAB Hurricane. Since fewer teams seem to be running things like Jirachi/SDef Rotom-W than before (at least from my experience anyway), most people will be hard pressed to check Tornadus outside of revenge killing or changing the weather. With Prankster and moves like Tailwind, Rain Dance and Taunt, it can even be more of a team player than Tornadus-T ever was. Base 111 Speed is still pretty fantastic as well. Yeah, being outsped by Starmie kinda sucks but it's not the end of the world. Although dependency on rain (and also ideally Rapid Spin support) are solid arguments for keeping it in B-rank, I think the threat of a Specs Hurricane alone is enough for it to leave a significant mark in OU.

 

[Lavos]

i can't support tornadus for a-rank. in the current metagame it's really hard to switch it in for free and there's not much it can actually end up doing anyways. i'll elaborate on both of these. first, tornadus has really pitiful levels of bulk, meaning it's very easily ohko'd by a plethora of different attacks, many of which are exceedingly common on ou teams. of the top 10 pokemon in the metagame right now, tornadus can't switch in for free on any one of them. it also still has the old set conundrum problem that tornadus-t had, in that specs is the only set powerful enough to net key ohkos (latios after rocks, for example), plus it doesn't kill you as fast, yet life orb offers versatility that's often the difference between victory and failure. finally, the prevalence of such pokemon like rotom-w, jirachi, and scarf tyranitar, all of which do a great job against tornadus, is a real deterrent against using it, since if your opponent has any one of these three pokemon (which, according to recent usage stats, is highly likely), you're going to encounter problems while trying to get tornadus to do anything. and let's be honest here, in the current ou metagame, 95% of teams have a scarfed revenge killer, and every single common one can ohko tornadus. not exactly a recipe for success...

tornadus remains high b-rank for now

 

[malomyotismon]

Since we are adding in uu mons, i'd likme to put in the word for hitmontop for class C.

He is a bit like donphan as a rappid spinner which is all he is good for these days, dealing with threats such as tyranitar, pretty easily due to resistances to rock and dark, which threaten the teams he's best suited for, sun teams. The main draw to this little guy has got to be the ability to forsight on spin blockers, allowing him to rappid spin against them, allowing mons baddly weak to hazards to come in safely. Despite pitiful hp he is actually more bulky than rotom-w thanks to intimidate and a decent base 110 special defence, althrough your not going to be investing in it.

sorry it's a little rushed it's mainly to get people talking

can we please agree to place hitmontop in a tier, he has a real good niech in this metagame for being the only rapid spin to be able to spin on ghosts.

 

[Eleman]

No way, Tornadus should be A-rank. First reason, it hits freakin hard! Tornadus can just about 2HKO anything in OU at this point with the proper team coverage like Breloom, Tornadus can really shine. Just slap on Choice Specs or Life Orb and you have a monster on your hands. Pretty much nothing really wants to switch into this thing. You can even go for a prankster set if you want with having priority tailwind which it can abuse with Life Orb. Tornadus is not S-rank material, but it is good enough for A-rank because of just the sheer damage output of this sadly overlooked genie.

 

[Magcargo]

Hitmontop is D-Rank material. He is a subpar rapid spinner and his qualities are not enough to make him C-Rank. Blastoise can spin against ghost, but gets 12.5% recovery in rain. Although he is horribly outclassed, he is still a better spnner than hitmontop. Hitmontop for D-rank.

 

[Lavos]

i don't think you understood the whole of my argument, tabuu. let me explain: i posit that tornadus's combined characteristics of frailty and limited offensive capability, in addition to the extreme prevalence of its two best counters, makes it less than worthy to be a candidate for a-rank. there's no bias here, tornadus is one of my favorite pokemon from the fifth generation, but it's really not up to scratch in the bw2 metagame.

 

[Tressed]

can we please agree to place hitmontop in a tier, he has a real good niech in this metagame for being the only rapid spin to be able to spin on ghosts.

Donphan can do that too, it has access to Odor Sleuth, which is the same thing, so Hitmontop's niche is kinda already taken (although no one runs Odor Sleuth Donphan, so there must be something I'm missing). Hitmontop really doesn't have a lot going for it beyond Intimidate and its special bulk, and I really don't think its up to taking on what OU's got.

Edit: Been looking through some random pokes, and Medicham showed up. Its got okay speed, weak, but not horrible defenses, and the equivalent of a 169 base Attack, a 130 BP STAB move, coverage options, and access to Trick. This thing screams Choice Scarf, not like a revenge killer, but more of a general attacker. I reckon it deserves a shot on the chart, if at least D-Tier.

 

[Neliel]

Agreeing with lavos that tornadus its fine in the B tier. While its hurricane its very powerful with the specs version and the life orb (that find its niche being a better tailwinder than the specs version) it has too flaws to be A tier. It needs the politoed support to work properly, as well as a spinner so that it doesnt die with stealth rock (and since tornadus often do u-turn you cant let this happen) and you will probably choose starmie or tentacruel, leaving you with 3 eletric weaknesses, difficult to fix. Also while it can use life orb to be a better wallbreaker and tailwinder, you will probably decide to use the specs variant to avoid the recoil, so that even choice band tyranitar can pursuit you to death. Its also very suspectible to priority moves such as scizor's bullet punch or mamoswine's ice shard, so to me it perfectly fits the B tier. it works but it need too much support and its success is not always guaranteed.

 

[Gary]

I also agree that Tornadus should stay in B-Tier. People need to understand that Tornadus-T and Tornadus are almost incomparable because of how different they played. Yes they both pretty much only spammed Hurricane, but Tornadus-T had so many more advantages over it. For starters, Regenerator was obviously the biggest advantage that Torn-T had over Tornadus, because it allowed Rain teams to have Torn-T on their team without needing to worry about a spinner. Also, moves like Toxic and even Burn really didn't matter because Torn-T can just switch right on out and get most of his lost health. Second of all, Tornadus-T was bulkier then Tornadus. Although it wasn't too much bulk, Tornadus-T didn't have to worry about priority nearly as much as Torn-I, and he was constantly switching out anyway, so most of his lost health would have been Regenerated. Most importantly however, was Torn-T's absurd speed. Although Tornadus-I is by no means slow, Tornadus-T could out speed the entire tier bar a few wildcards like Jolteon. This made him nearly uncheckable, and forces you to almost always have a Choice Scarfer that can deal with him.

I just feel like Tornadus-T had a much better niche in the meta game then Tornadus-I, and it's definitely supported by the fact that he's up in Ubers right now. Tornadus should stay B-Tier. Too frail, SR weak, and walled by common threats.

 

[Groudon ex]

i fully agree with all the people who want torn to stay in b-rank. yeah it's a powerful mon, but it's hardly the gold standard of power in ou when you compare it to behemoths like terrakion, landorus, thundurus-t, kyurem-b etc. it is just too reliant on team support to work consistently, and doesn't offer any defensive synergy whatsoever. i see no reason why it should be ranked among the a-rank mons who are all comparatively more reliable in their respective roles.

 

[malomyotismon]

On the topic of Hitmontop, he really ends up becoming a waste of a team slot as he rarely gets the time to shine. I've used this Pokemon in the past and I've seen it in action (Shofu has recently vs. a player who used Hitmontop I believe). The fact that he can Rapid Spin may seem amazing but honestly Jellicent can Taunt him from using Foresight if the player sees it coming, which they usually do.
Also, usually Rapid Spin end up being paired with things such as Tyranitar to help eliminate Ghost Type Pokemon. Hitmontop just doesn't always pull its weight in battle and really needs more support than the support it ends up giving. A-Rank? Not this time.

his rather small niche is purely on sun teams, where his ability to rapid spin on ghosts is invaluable, while checking threats such as tyranitar, so he is not completely useless. The main reason to use him is the disadvtages other rappid spiners bring, tenta relies on the opponent having rain to be anything special, fotress is not a great rapid spiner and can loose momentum for the team if your looking for a pure spinner and starmie add another big fat Dinosaur issue, which hitmontop laughs at.

Also you can take eves from defence to speed if you wnat to beat jelly, he is naturaly has ahigher base stat in speed, but tbh if your not using foresight on the switch to a ghost your not using top right.


because his niche is rather tiny, I am in agreement for D tier

 

[Homeslice]

Can someone explain to me why Scizor is A tier but not S tier? Is he just really high A tier or is there something I'm missing?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Can someone explain to me why Scizor is A tier but not S tier? Is he just really high A tier or is there something I'm missing?

Scizor's actually a mid-to-low-tier A Pokemon. Its offensive abilities are too limited, and the metagame is too filled with Pokes that resist Steel and have no trouble dealing out massive damage to it.

Scizor's great, but its usage is far inflated beyond its actual OU abilities.

 

[Lavos]

Scizor's actually a mid-to-low-tier A Pokemon. Its offensive abilities are too limited, and the metagame is too filled with Pokes that resist Steel and have no trouble dealing out massive damage to it.

Scizor's great, but its usage is far inflated beyond its actual OU abilities.

chou's absolutely right, scizor isn't that great anymore and its usage doesn't reflect its actual viability in the ou tier right now. sure it's still a-rank, not gonna dispute that, but stuff like keldeo which is #3 in usage and resists both scizor's stabs makes things really problematic for sd sciz, whereas the band set's really outclassed by almost any other priority user nowadays. steel just ain't what it used to be. i think the old bw1 trend of using scizor on every single team ever kinda stuck and that's why you still see so much scizor usage on the ladder, but not a ton in the tournament scene.

 

[Gary]

Usage doesn't always necessarily reflect on how good a Pokemon actually is. A perfect example of this is Infernape, who at this point finds itself heavily neutered by Rain in this meta game, while also being out classed in the fast fighting type department by Terrakion and Keldeo. It's priority Mach Punch sees little use too because of Breloom. Infernape isn't "bad", but it's not really good either.

I'm not saying that Scizor doesn't deserve #1 usage, but as Chou said, Scizor is slow as molasses and has terrible special bulk, and only really finds itself sweeping with Bullet Punch, revenge killing with Bullet Punch, and Pursuit trapping. Great Pokemon, but not incredibly versatile.

 

[Magcargo]

Scizor has many utilities no doubt, but it isn't S-Rank material. While he is arguably the best revenge killer in OU, common threats like Keldeo and to the lesser extent thundorus-t can wall him. The main reason of his high usage is because of his utilities. Scizor may be able to suprise some pokemon like keldeo and volcarona with aerial ace, but it can rarely fit that in its movesets. It definetly deserves to be A-Rank, but isn't really an S-Rank pokemon.

 

[G-Von]

Yea, I've never had a problem with Scizor before. I normally use a Chandelure or Jellicent so most damage done to them is pitiful even after a SD. Is there anyway that it could be demoted to B-tier?

 

[Magcargo]

Yea, I've never had a problem with Scizor before. I normally use a Chandelure or Jellicent so most damage done to them is pitiful even after a SD. Is there anyway that it could be demoted to B-tier?

I wouldn't demote it to B-Rank. Scizor's utilities and versatility are enough to keep it in A-Rank. It can also surprise ghost with Night slash, but that is often shafted for pursuit. Also, it is the main reason grass types run HP fire. Also, some pokemon like Keldeo are countered, so even though it has hard counters, almost every pokemon has its counters

 

[Halcyon.]

How about Victini for B tier. Yeah he has a terrible weakness to Stealth Rock, but the Choice Band/Scarf sets are ridiculous, and V-Create in the Sun is just plain stupid. I think that it fits the definition of B rank nicely.

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Victini can't sweep teams, but what it can do is absolutely wreck walls with its absurd power when in the sun. Not only that, but it has pretty good coverage, and can also opt to run special sets to catch certain threats off guard. I mean, this thing really is insane. Even the bulky Landorus-T set can't switch in safely to Victini:

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T in sun: 313-370 (84.82 - 100.27%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This is one of the premier physical walls in the game, and takes an absurd amount of damage from Victini's V-create. Even the Scarf set leaves him at really low health. Does he fit in B tier? Obviously rain is every where, and he is weak to SR, but with the right support, Victini is dangerous.

 

[jrp]

Seconding a demotion for Amoonguss. Amoonguss is in no way a bad pokemon, but it suffers from the fact that it was severely overhyped. Poison/grass, which was originally seen as a way to wall rain teams now puts it at a weakness against top tier threads like Psychic Landorus, and the fact that alakazam usage is rising doesn't do it any favors.

Also, I'm proposing moving Alakazam up to A rank. Its focus sash set is extremely invaluable, letting it "tank" a hit from Rock Polish landorus and slamming it with Hidden Power Ice. Alakazam can also revenge kill dangerous dragons like Scarf salamence and dragonite with multiscale broken.

 

[Reymedy]

I don't see any good reason to demote Amoonguss. When you look at the top threats right now in OU, no need to be a genius to realise how good Amoonguess can be.

- If you want you counter Keldeo without being Pursuited (I mean, just that point makes the pokemon worthy).
- You can also check effectively Terrakion, there is no coverage move that can kill you. So basically, if it's a choiced version, you almost took 0 damages with Regenerator, and won the tempo.
- You wall Breloom. All day, all night.
- You got Spore... SPORE. Do I even need to explain how strong this thing can be ? "Let's get free momentum, and a free "OHKO" with a defensive pokemon, life is so easy"
- Can go mixed. Both his defense and his special defense are decent enough to be able to build a set. I mean, if you want to have a physical wall, go ahead, if you want to have a special wall to take some HPump, go ahead. My favorite set is a physical one with enough investment in SpD to take 2 HPump from Specs Politoed in Rain.. and it does not require too much investment, I can even make sure that I won't be 2HKO by Stone Edge from Terrakion. A physical wall able to take 2 Hpump under rain .. O.O
- It has Regenerator, and this thing is damn strong.

I laughed at "Psychic Landorus", I hope it's not your only reason to demote Amoonguss. And seriously, Alakazam is far from being enough to justify a demote.
Now, about what can set-up on the shroom. I think it's your fault, from your building, if something sets-up too easily on him. He has 85 base SpA .. This is really "OK" for a defensive mon. You got HP Ice if you're afraid of Dragons, Para Spore if afraid of.. anything.. and Clear Smog aswell.. I don't really like Giga Drain by the way. I just think that you should really should get specific coverage for specific threats when you play Amoonguss and then you won't be disapointed.

I think B rank is really fine, and it's not because one can't have success with a pokemon that it justifies a demote IMHO.

PS : This thing has SPORE.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Amoonguss is a terribly shaky check to Terrakion though. With Defense investment it can do fine against Scarf Terrakion, but even with Bold 252/252 it can still be 2HKOd by CB Stone Edge. I think running mixed defenses is a bad idea because it means it is less competent at taking hits from things that it can check reliably. For example, with a Bold Nature it requires 124 SDef EVs to absolutely guarantee that it can live two Specs Hydro Pumps from Politoed, but that's assuming no Stealth Rock. If Stealth Rock is on the field, Amoonguss still has a good chance of being 2HKOd. Running more SDef would negate the benefits of running a +Def nature in the first place. Giga Drain is also necessary if you want to be able to break Terrakion's/Keldeo's sub.

Though Amoonguss is a good Pokémon, its niche is pretty much restricted to Spore and Regenerator. In pretty much every other aspect, Celebi does a far superior job in my opinion. This is mainly down to the fact that it has a much more diverse movepool, letting fulfil a large number of roles. It may have a Pursuit weakness, but this can be mitigated with Baton Pass. Amoonguss' Psychic weakness tends to hamper it quite a bit, as Starmie and Lati@s can easily threaten it. Also, Celebi has the incredibly useful Ground resistance, letting it check Sheer Force Landorus much more reliably than Amoonguss can.

However, due to how well Amoonguss tends to fair against rain teams in general, I still think it is good enough to meet the criteria for B-rank.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

If you go back 5-10 pages, you'll see a bit of discussion on why amoonguss was raised. His access to spore and regenerator are just about enough to bring him up there, coupled with his mixed walling ability and an almost surefire counter to keldeo is incredible. Celebi is superior with resistances and attacks and general things it can do to counter rain teams, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't have spore. That's why celebi's A and amoonguss is B