The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Goutland]

70/70/75 bulk sounds mediocre on paper, but in practice it's not that bad since Camerupt is almost never hit super effectively. Fully invested, it takes all of the hits it needs to very well. Here are some calcs:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Raikou Extrasensory vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 30.23% - 35.76% (4 hits to KO)

This is the strongest move Raikou can throw at it, and it's still not even a 3 hit KO after leftovers and rocks.

252 +1 SpAtk Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 26.45% - 31.4% (4-5 hits to KO)

+1 HP ice hardly does anything.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom-H (+SpAtk) Overheat vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 40.7% - 47.97% (3 hits to KO)

Easy switch in to any set as it'll do nothing after the special attack drop. Only thing to worry about is trick.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 43.9% - 51.74% (3 hits to KO)

Barely not a 2 hit KO. This isn't a hit Camerupt wants to take, but it can if it has to. You're better off checking it than switching in directly.

Some other various calcs:

252 SpAtk Shaymin Earth Power vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 30.81% - 36.63% (4 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Shaymin Seed Flare vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 41.28% - 48.84% (3 hits to KO)
252 Atk Victini V-create vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 47.67% - 56.1% (2-3 hits to KO) (can't switch in, but can check)
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 57.56% - 67.73% (2 hits to KO) (same as above)
0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 38.37% - 45.35% (3 hits to KO)

I'm using it with intimidate and leech seed support from Qwilfish and Shaymin on my team, so it often has an easier time switching in to resist as these calcs show. Really the only thing Camerupt shines at is checking Raikou flawlessly and not having to worry about random coverage moves. I realize it's not amazing and that it's worse than Swampert and Rhyperior, which is why I'm only nominating it for C rank as a niche replacement for two A rank pokemon.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

70/70/75 bulk sounds mediocre on paper, but in practice it's not that bad since Camerupt is almost never hit super effectively. Fully invested, it takes all of the hits it needs to very well. Here are some calcs:

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Raikou Extrasensory vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 30.23% - 35.76% (4 hits to KO)

This is the strongest move Raikou can throw at it, and it's still not even a 3 hit KO after leftovers and rocks.

252 +1 SpAtk Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 26.45% - 31.4% (4-5 hits to KO)

+1 HP ice hardly does anything.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Rotom-H (+SpAtk) Overheat vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 40.7% - 47.97% (3 hits to KO)

Easy switch in to any set as it'll do nothing after the special attack drop. Only thing to worry about is trick.

252 SpAtk Choice Specs Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 43.9% - 51.74% (3 hits to KO)

Barely not a 2 hit KO. This isn't a hit Camerupt wants to take, but it can if it has to. You're better off checking it than switching in directly.

Some other various calcs:

252 SpAtk Shaymin Earth Power vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 30.81% - 36.63% (4 hits to KO)
252 SpAtk Shaymin Seed Flare vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Camerupt (+SpDef) : 41.28% - 48.84% (3 hits to KO)
252 Atk Victini V-create vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 47.67% - 56.1% (2-3 hits to KO) (can't switch in, but can check)
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 57.56% - 67.73% (2 hits to KO) (same as above)
0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Camerupt: 38.37% - 45.35% (3 hits to KO)

I'm using it with intimidate and leech seed support from Qwilfish and Shaymin on my team, so it often has an easier time switching in to resist as these calcs show. Really the only thing Camerupt shines at is checking Raikou flawlessly and not having to worry about random coverage moves. I realize it's not amazing and that it's worse than Swampert and Rhyperior, which is why I'm only nominating it for C rank as a niche replacement for two A rank pokemon.

OK, That makes since sense since everybody and their mother seems to be running either specs/calm mind raikou. Pairing it with Leech seed is good, so I see it fitting in c-rank with the other mons that require support. It still feels like it comes up short of what it really needs though. It's bulk is rather disapointing, as it's a good defensive type and it looks like it should be bulky as hell, but it's stats let it down. I can't help but have a feeling there's a lot of missed potential in camerupt.

 

[Lovelace]

Ah Camerupt is not bad, I used it a few times and it can definitely take a hit. There's lots of good NU Pokes that take electric type mons on really well. I suggested Piloswine a few pages ago, kinda sad it didn't get any response.

With only 252 HP investment and 0 SpDef:

• 252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 36-43 (8.91 - 10.64%) -- 9HKO at best
• 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 79-94 (19.55 - 23.26%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 140-166 (34.65 - 41.08%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's no slouch offensively either. Whereas Camerupt fails to OHKO Raikou or 3HKO offensive Zapdos, Piloswine hits lots of things really hard:

• 252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 300-354 (87.97 - 103.81%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 338-398 (97.68 - 115.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 292-348 (97 - 115.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 258-312 (80.12 - 96.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But are we actually gonna be digging this deep?

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Huh...I KNOW Piloswine's been mentioned somewhere in this thread before, as I recall PTJon7 nominating for B-Rank and me seconding that. I won't repost the main set he suggested cause you probably use it yourself (and thread search tools) but I do agree that Piloswine is pretty dope in UU. It really checks every single electric-type not named Rotom Heat (only cause Rotom-H walls its STABs) and it can get some cheap kills on fire types thanks to Thick Fat making it only neutral to fire. Just have a way of getting around bulky Waters and pokes named Bronzong and Piloswine can Piloshine on your team.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

But are we actually gonna be digging this deep?

Well, unless you want to talk about how dusclops/claydol/ambipom are incredibly underrated mons, we've exhausted all the Pokemon in UU and many in RU, we gotta look for stuff in NU. Do we have golurk or alomomola in any tier?

 

[Shiruba]

^ Golurk now finds itself in C tier [down from B, if I recall correctly, which is unfortunate - I love that 'mon], but Alomomola is untiered. What do you think about it?

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think Alomomola could make it into C-Rank. While it faces competition from other bulky Water-types such as Slowbro and Suicune, Alomomola has a couple of useful traits. Firstly, it's bulkier physically than its competition, which means it can be an excellent physical wall. It also has the ability to pass Wishes, and its absurd HP makes it a good Wish Passer, restoring large amounts of HP to its teammates. It has Wish+Regenerator to constantly come in and repeatedly counter things such as Scarf Mienshao, Darmanitan, etc. It can do a really good job at walling things, and can form a good core with Pokemon such as Roserade and Amoonguss, the former benefitting from Wish if it's using Rest. Of course, Alomomola has flaws such as its miserable special bulk and lack of offensive presence, and it faces stiff competition from Slowbro and Suicune as a bulky Water-type. However, Alomomola's qualities, of which I have stated, allow it to carve a niche for itself, thus being worthy of C-Rank.

Also, Golurk was never B iirc, it was initially placed in C, although there have been notions to move it up to B.

 

[Magcargo]

Nominating dusclops for Low C-Rank.
Despite being a bad pokemon, I feel that dusclops has enough merits to make it into low C-Rank. Apart from walling common threats like mienshao and heracross, dusclops also provides support in the from of curse and Will-O-Wisp. While curse lowers dusclop's already abysmal HP, it prevents it from becoming setup bait and also allows you to win 1v1 situations. Unlike other ghost types with curse, dusclops actually has the bulk to take 2 hits at 50% and either use rest or pain split to heal its health. Will-O-wisp is another useful move that dusclops has access to and it not only cripples physical attackers, but it also increases the amount of residual damage that the foes will be taking.
While many people view gligar as a better pokemon, I actually find both gligar and dusclops to be pretty equal in terms of viability. Gligar has better speed, U-turn, reliable recovery and an immunity to spikes, toxic and T-wave, while dusclops has better defenses on both sides of the spectrum, will-o-wisp, arguably better typing, and the ability to spinblock.
Overall, dusclops is a terrible pokemon and is outclassed by sableye and cofagrigus, but like ambipom and gligar, I think that it has enough merits to become Low C-rank.

 

[Shiruba]

I noticed that Tauros has no tiering in this thread.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/tauros/uu
Tauros has a UU analysis, so it makes sense that it should be placed, correct? Anyone here used it or faced it enough to have a good idea?

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I noticed that Tauros has no tiering in this thread.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/tauros/uu
Tauros has a UU analysis, so it makes sense that it should be placed, correct? Anyone here used it or faced it enough to have a good idea?

I would say that Tauros belongs in C-rank, maybe a low B-rank. The real problem with tauros is that all of it's moves that can utilize sheer force have shaky accuracy. I think the route to go with this is to pair it up with a mon that learns hone claws + baton pass. The best mon to pair it with would probably be Durant, as it has good defense even when uninvested, along with great typing, allowing it to set up easily, and can soften opponents for tauros and baton pass out in an unfavorable match up. Sadly, tauros doesn't learn baton pass also, I've been looking for a pair of pokemon that can boost and pass between each other in unfavorable matchups

 

[Jatul]

I feel like Cress gets way to much hate for my taste, not only is it the best poke with defensive stats but it can also dish out a fair amount of hits Plus with access to things like calm mind, ice beam, psyshock, toxic, t-wave, energy ball, it can even set up trick room. Cress can even take a scarfed megahorn from herracross and hit it hard with a psychic. Personally I think it should be A since status can really cripple it but with heal bell support it just doesnt die. Making Umbreon one of the perfect teammates. While those pesky bugs hit em both the dark psychic core is still pretty strong.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Why is suicune still B rank? Crocune is one of the most ridiculous powerful sweepers in the tier, once it gets going you pretty much loses. Grass and electric types are annoying but once those are gone you can have a field day. Pressure and rest ensure that suicune will always wins stall wars, while scald burn rate ensures that switching even in an unboosted suicune is a gamble. Its bulk is simply ridiculous even before a calm mind, this thing can literally beat stuff like heracross or flygon by just tanking hits and stalling with rest+pressure. Suicune for A-Rank because of how hard it is to beat it and its ability to simply steamroll its counters once the calm mind boosts start rolling.

 

[PTJon7]

Suicune is in B-Rank? I assumed it was in A, its A-Rank material for sure.

I don't really think Tauros has enough of a niche to really be worth mentioning in UU, why use it over any other physical sweeper? I haven't used it myself however so I can't really say.

 

[Shiruba]

I've never seen Weavile do much in UU, to be honest. More often than not I see it dying really early after netting maybe one KO - the only time I really see it doing well is when I watch battles where it is being used against shitty players. It also tends to have the unfortunate habit of just barely not KOing its target and being KO'd in return. I love cleaners, don't get me wrong [my signature team uses Sharpedo and I love the hell out of that thing, so unappreciated], but wouldn't Sharpedo be better for cleaning on account of Speed Boost + higher attack + better movepool? I'm not necessarily saying it doesn't belong there [I could be seeing the wrong battles], but can anyone provide justification?

Also, we need moar Suicune evidence, plz. I haven't seen a terrible lot of it in both watching and playing battles, but it's one of the coolest Pokemon in UU imho, and a good friend of mine would prolly like to base his team around it, but that 'B' it's sitting in is understandably a bit of a put-off. Anyone wanna get more evidence to bump Suicune to A where it [hopefully] belongs?

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I don't really think Tauros has enough of a niche to really be worth mentioning in UU, why use it over any other physical sweeper? I haven't used it myself however so I can't really say.

It's definitely outclassed by darnanitan as a physical sheer force user, but it does have a 110 speed, which definatly makes it worth a mention, plus scarf with either sheer force or intimidate could work. It can pretty reliably revenge kill a scarfshao without fearing damage, something most mons can't do (unless youre a ghost type or a bulky mon with a resist, youre going to take big damage from that high jump kick) The only other scarfer that can do that is raikou, which it has better things to do

 

[Lovelace]

I've used Tauros a bit. It's speed is nice and it's abilities are great but it lacks power and its STAB sucks with all the ghosts/Rhyperior running around. I think it definitely awesome utility in the lower tiers with surprise Fire Blasts and such but it can't really do too much here.

I strongly agree that Weavile is really over rated. I wrote a sizable chunk of text in this thread about it. But I guess that must have been somehow missed too.

Suicune is bulky as all hell but it gets easily worn down a lot and having to rely on RestTalk is really poopy. The offensive set is alright as well but there's so many big threats in the tier that can come in and smack it really hard, namely Zapdos and Shaymin. Without defensive investment even stuff like Heracross hits reasonably hard. It's not bad but it just doesn't stand out with all the other great water attackers we have like Kingdra, Slowbro, and Omastar.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Weavile deserves its place in the A rank. If its fighting-type counters (namely Hitmontop and some choice scarfers) and some bulky water-types are removed, Weavile can set up a swords dance and clean up. Just like any other sweeper, Weavile needs support. This is the definition of A-rank: "it needs some support in order to sweep"

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

@Lovelace i talked exclusively about the crocune set as the reason to move suicune up to A-Rank. Omastar and kingdra are in no way comparable to crocune since theyre not supposed to tank hits while slowbro vulnerability to toxic makes it a lot easier to beat.

 

[Lovelace]

Yeah I was replying to that in the first part of my post. It's a bulky poke but it's susceptible to all sorts of hazards, no Regenerator, and it has to reply on the crap Rest Talk so it gets worn down very easily. Not to mention that it's generally stuck as a mono attacker.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

It doenst really get worned down since it only has to come in once anyway. After a few calm mind boosts scald will blast through most resists and even shit like milotic will lose because of pressure. Also i dont see how is using rest talk so bad in this case since suicune is bulk enough to stay in for 2 turns and rest protects it from status and allow it to stall other bulk waters easily.

 

[Lovelace]

Well there's lots of examples, like with common Volt Turning teams with spikes. Darm comes in on your Roserade or whatever. You don't want to risk it so you switch into Suicune. With Flare Blitz and some hazards you're down 40%. Your opponent then switches into Shaymin. If you were Milotic or something you could Recover off the damage on the switch then be at full for the next assault. If you were Slowbro you could Slack Off or even just switch out and let Regenerator patch you up. Even if you Rest up on the switch being asleep sucks.

Same scenario comes around again and you bring in your non rested Suicune on the Flare Blitz. You get 2HKOd.

Same scenario with rested Suicune, you get unlucky with Sleep Talk, pulling a Rest then a Calm Mind. This will happen 4/9 times if my math is correct, nearly half. In this case, you get 3HKO'd without even touching the Darm whereas even Milotic would have been fine. I've had this kind of thing happen while using Suicune. They don't even have to stay in Flare Blitzing, they can bring their grass or electric or whatever and not got hit almost 70% of the time.

Even if you Calm Mind on the switch to their Shaymin or Zapdos or whatever you're still doing crap damage while they smash you.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 252-299 (62.37 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 59-69 (17.3 - 20.23%) -- possible 5HKO

I'm not saying that Suicune isn't good but it has several serious flaws. Mono water isn't the greatest with Kingdra and the like running around, not even mentioning stuff like Poliwrath. Even in the case of Milotic you mentioned, Suicune isn't winning as Milotic generally carries Dragon Tail or Haze. Slowbro and even Milotic can hit their counters with strong coverage moves, status, phazing, a whole bunch of things since they have a moveslot to spare.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Gligar needs to be moved up to B Rank because, well, it fits the definition of a B Rank:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Gligar fills a gigantic niche of walling and shifting momentum, thanks to one little move: U-turn. UU is full of scarfers that Gligar walls, and this entire thread treats Gligar as dead weight. When really, it's the exact opposite.

Cofagrigus can block some of the pokemon too, sure. But then what happens? The opponent's Cofagrigus counter rolls in. I'm not saying this somehow makes Cofagrigus bad, or worse than Gligar at walling, but Gligar's core strength is coming in on a dangerous attack, eating it for breakfast, and U-turning on the switch to turn a dangerous situation into a favorable one. Yes, it can set up rocks, or spread poison, or use an Earthquake that fails to kill Raikou, but that's all secondary to its ability to regain momentum. This is further exemplified by Gligar's immunity to spikes (and toxic spikes, even if it could be poisoned) and neutrality to SR.​

​

This niche certainly warrants a B Rank, given that's, like, right there in the guidelines for a B Rank pokemon. It properly fulfills a given offensive/defensive niche. Nothing can retake momentum from scarfers like Gligar in UU. Is it A Rank? Hardly. Is it the best physical wall in the tier? Nope. But its role is certainly worthy of being placed above the likes of Smeargle and Ambipom.​

 

[Oddish is the best]

Why is Milotic mediocre? I don't use it personally but it seems like it is alright. Are other bulky waters just better?

 

[TLK]

Why is Milotic mediocre? I don't use it personally but it seems like it is alright. Are other bulky waters just better?

It's a simplistic answer, but the whole tier is just really unkind to pure water types. Raikou and Roserade are both top 10 Pokemon and Zapdos is just outside the top 10 at the moment. Every powerful fire type in the tier (the stuff that these bulky waters need to try and wall) have absurdly powerful moves to use that will quickly wear them down.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah adding on to what TLK said, Milotic really finds itself outclassed as a bulky Water-type, facing competition from Slowking and Slowbro with their better overall utility, and having some extra handy resistance to Fighting to make use of. It also cannot break Kingdra's Subs, unlike Slowking, which really leaves Milotic in the shadows. Suicune also gives Milotic competition as a bulky Water thanks to its overall balanced bulk. As said, the things Milotic is supposed to be walling do way too much damage to Milotic, forcing it to constantly spam Recover, and while this is annoying for a noob, against a good player this will lead to free turns and kill all of your momentum. Milotic is just so outclassed.

I'd be cool with Dusclops in C-Rank actually, I've used it on a stall team, and the Curse set is actually pretty good. Dusclops's superior bulk to Cofag gives it the edge in curse stalling, allowing it to take at least one hit at half HP, allowing it to Pain Split the HP back. It's a pretty good stalling spinblocker, between Curse, Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split it can wear down the HP of everything pretty darn quickly. The other cool thing is that Curse is really useful to handle certain stallbreakers such as BU Scrafty and NP+Heal Bell Togekiss, two of stall's worst enemies, as this, unlike status, can't be removed by them and will make sure they get at a consistent wear-down timer, so that they can't be problematic to your stall team for a long time. Between the four moves you can quickly have yourself at an advantage with residual damage. Spinblocking and physical walling is just a nice bonus. Dusclops certainly isn't a great Pokemon, but I believe it's at least a lot better than Claydol.

Gligar is definitely C-Rank at best. I've explained this earlier in the thread, but it can't do too much useful.

Suicune could be A-Rank, I'm not sure but I'm certainly not opposed.

I'm going to nominate Kabutops for C-Rank, since it's actually a pretty decent choice in UU. It is a viable Rapid Spin user, with either SR+Spin and also posing a solid offensive threat, and can also beat Froslass one-on-one (this is awesome, since Froslass is arguably like, the third best Pokemon in UU behind Mienshao and Snorlax atm). It can also use SD+Spin to beat most spinblockers bar maybe Dusclops, and it can also break down walls in general. Kabutops is also a viable rain sweeper, and it can use its power and STABs to pull off a handy sweep against the team. The other cool thing is its access to spin along with its rain sweeping prowess makes it a viable partner for Tornadus, sporting good synergy and keeping SR off the field for Tornadus to better thrive. Overall Kabutops is a pretty good rain sweeper/spinner in UU and that warrants it at least C-Rank.