BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Arcticblast]

Predictably Landorus-T replaced Landorus-I in the popular Keldeo/Tyranitar/Landorus core.
And it performs virtually the same way. I don't think banning Landorus-I accomplished anything.

The thing about Landorus-T is that it has checks that don't overlap with Keldeo's (and in many cases aren't Pursuit weak), preventing CBTar from fucking over a team quite as easily. Skarmory is an excellent check to both Landorus-T and CBTar, and takes a huge chunk out of Keldeo should it try to switch in. Landorus-T is actually a check to itself, assuming neither carries HP Ice. Heck, if Lando-T isn't running a special coverage move, Poison Heal Breloom can take it out, and Keldeo loves switching in on Breloom.

 

[MikeDawg]

Predictably Landorus-T replaced Landorus-I in the popular Keldeo/Tyranitar/Landorus core.
And it performs virtually the same way. I don't think banning Landorus-I accomplished anything.

That makes no sense.

Lando-T and Lando are COMPLETELY different pokemon.

Keld+Land-t have different checks/counters
Land-t is slower
Ttar doesn't do anything important to the bulk of lando-t's checks
Land-t is weaker
etc.

Lando-T didn't REPLACE it, it simply now has the opprotunity to be used as a pivot since lando-i is gone. The two play completely different roles, though.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Tyranitar can easily beat skarmory (cb stone edge 2hko after rocks and fire blast from sp def set will always 2hko), latiwins and celebi which are the most common rock polish lando t checks. Its true that ttar loses to other checks like keldeo and breloom but you cant really say ttar doesnt help lando t. Of course i do agree that the core is not as threatening as before.

 

[chimpact]

In that core I'm sure U-turn Lando-T would be the most common set so psychic pokemon will not be switching into it.

 

[Nysyr]

Pretty sure everyone claiming to have problems with Lando-T and keldeo probably are running bad teams. Keldeo is automatically checked by any team on the basis of if you prepare for rain, you prepare for keldeo. Lando-T is slow, and is far easier to check/counter outright than Lando-I; heck it even checks itself pretty handily.

As for TTar 2hkoing Skarm, no it doesn't. Skarm outspeeds standard BandTar and roosts for NVE stone edge. Superpower won't even 2hko specially defensive skarm with roost for super effective on second one.

 

[phantom]

Just saying, Band Tar runs Speed investment particularity to outspeed Skarmory, so you're wrong on that one.

Also:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (47.7 - 56.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah. It's a 50/50 shot, but it still exists. Personally, I wouldn't switch in Skarmory into Ttar unless I predicted a crunch or something. Even then, Fire Blast still exists, so it's kinda risky regardless.

 

[Nysyr]

Just saying, Band Tar runs Speed investment particularity to outspeed Skarmory, so you're wrong on that one.

Also:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (47.7 - 56.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So yeah. It's a 50/50 shot, but it still exists. Personally, I wouldn't switch in Skarmory into Ttar unless I predicted a crunch or something. Even then, Fire Blast still exists, so it's kinda risky regardless.

No it runs speed to hit 177.

Skarm gets 32 leftover EVs and hits 184 (which is enough to outspeed 108 spe jelly).

TTar cannot drop the HP EVs or it actually comes into 2hko range from latios.

 

[phantom]

No it runs speed to hit 177

Exactly my point.

Where the hell are you even getting any of this from?

Quoted from CB Ttar's analysis:

The given EV spread maximizes Tyranitar's power while giving it the ability to outpace uninvested base 70s

For Standard Skarormy, it puts the 32 leftover evs into SpD so it can take random Fire Blasts more effectively and what not. Skarmory is a wall first and that's where the evs are meant to go. You can't possibly be using Speed creep as an argument, that's just absurd.

TTar cannot drop the HP EVs or it actually comes into 2hko range from latios.

It's 2HKoed regardless.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 208-246 (51.48 - 60.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Nysyr]

Exactly my point.

Where the hell are you even getting any of this from?

Quoted from CB Ttar's analysis:



For Standard Skarormy, it puts the 32 leftover evs into SpD so it can take random Fire Blasts more effectively and what not. Skarmory is a wall first and that's where the evs are meant to go. You can't possibly be using Speed creep as an argument, that's just absurd.



It's 2HKoed regardless.

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 208-246 (51.48 - 60.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

DM.

And if you really think 4% more special bulk is worth being taunted by jellicent be my guest.

Keep running sets off the site without thinking for the larger context.

And I didn't start the speed creep argument, you did. Skarm is base 70 Ttar is base 61, who is doing the speedcreep you think?

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-38828171

Mine was Spdef and it couldn't even go for the 2hko.

PS. Cute flame in PM, if you can't debate it without flaming me, don't try.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Pretty sure everyone claiming to have problems with Lando-T and keldeo probably are running bad teams. Keldeo is automatically checked by any team on the basis of if you prepare for rain, you prepare for keldeo. Lando-T is slow, and is far easier to check/counter outright than Lando-I; heck it even checks itself pretty handily.

>implying good teams lost to the old Tyranitar/Keldeo/Lando-I core.

I just claimed that Landorus-T performs virtually the same compared to Lando-I, not that the trio is hard to beat. Lando-T is simply doing Lando-I's old job.
It still kills Celebi with U-Turn, still kills dragons with HP Ice, still kills assorted steel-types with an even stronger STAB Earthquake and so on.
Sure it can't run a special attacking set and it's slower but unlike Lando-I it's a much better offensive pivot thanks to Intimidate and the extra attack helps (i.e. when running Supwerpower as a much more reliable fighting-type attack compared to Focus Blast).

It's like Deoxys-D replacing Deoxys-S as a suicide lead - it might have been more limited in what it could do, but it still did its job damn well.
Whether the next best thing is broken or not is an entirely different matter.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

No one is switching Celebi in on Landorus-T. Nobody is switching or leaving Dragon's in on Landorus-T (unless locked into Outrage). Of course it kills steel types, why are you pointing out the obvious? Trust me, it is not a better pivot, since it has hard counters that aren't Pursuit weak (Skarm, Bronzong, other Landorus-T).

Also, please don't greentext. Ever.

 

[BurningMan]

>implying good teams lost to the old Tyranitar/Keldeo/Lando-I core.

I just claimed that Landorus-T performs virtually the same compared to Lando-I, not that the trio is hard to beat. Lando-T is simply doing Lando-I's old job.
It still kills Celebi with U-Turn, still kills dragons with HP Ice, still kills assorted steel-types with an even stronger STAB Earthquake and so on.
Sure it can't run a special attacking set and it's slower but unlike Lando-I it's a much better offensive pivot thanks to Intimidate and the extra attack helps (i.e. when running Supwerpower as a much more reliable fighting-type attack compared to Focus Blast).

It's like Deoxys-D replacing Deoxys-S as a suicide lead - it might have been more limited in what it could do, but it still did its job damn well.
Whether the next best thing is broken or not is an entirely different matter.

While Shootin Starmie is right that nobody would switch in Celebie on Lando-T (at least not unless they know it is going to lock itself into EQ/SE), it isn't even great at killing Dragons with HP Ice since it won't OHKO Dragonite/Garchomp 100% of the time even with SR and has a 12.5% chance to fail killing -SDef Salamence without since its HP Ice is much weaker. It is also a lot worse at removing steel types outside of Jirachi and Heatran, Ferrothorn is only 4HKOd by EQ and can stall you out with Leech Seed+Protect and hit you with Gyro Ball. Landorus-I had a high chance to just OHKO it with Focus Blast and would always 2HKO with Earth Power after SR. Forretresss can't do much back to Lando-T but it is only 4HKOd by EQ and can spin or lay Hazards down in front of it without much trouble where Lando-I just OHKOed it with Earth Power after SR and i don't think we need to speak about Skarmory or Bronzong, sure Lando-T can beat them with Gravity, but Lando-I had almost nothing to fear from them.
Saying that Superpower is more reliable than Focus Blast is like saying Outrage is better than Draco Meteor, both got downsides and Focus Blast hit the tragets hit needed to hit alot harder than Superpower would.

Sure Lando-T is a good Pokemon, but in terms of power it is something completly different.

 

[phantom]

DM.

And if you really think 4% more special bulk is worth being taunted by jellicent be my guest.

Keep running sets off the site without thinking for the larger context.

And I didn't start the speed creep argument, you did. Skarm is base 70 Ttar is base 61, who is doing the speedcreep you think?

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-38828171

Mine was Spdef and it couldn't even go for the 2hko.

PS. Cute flame in PM, if you can't debate it without flaming me, don't try.

1. No one keeps it in on Jellicent, lol. That's pretty absurd. And DM is irrelevent, I would always surf on Latios when Tyranitar is there to discourage it from switching in.
2. The onsite sets are pretty much the "the larger context". If you're referencing sets that you'll only encounter once every 20 games or so, you're the one that isn't thinking of this so called "larger context".
3. I'm referencing onsite sets, you're putting speed into things that don't normally run them. Ergo, you're the one speed creeping.
4. I'm surprised you couldn't tell that was a Choice Scarf Tyranitar lol.
5. I messaged you via pm b/c I didn't want to derail the thread, but if you're not gonna reply to me here and then act like I flamed you. Then I'm sure you'll reply here to save face.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Wait 4hkoed? What lando-t set is being talked about here? With max atk, adamant and life orb it can 2hko ferro after rocks and forretress has a small chance of being 2hkoed as well. -Spd mence is always ohkoed.

 

[Meru]

For Standard Skarormy, it puts the 32 leftover evs into SpD so it can take random Fire Blasts more effectively and what not. Skarmory is a wall first and that's where the evs are meant to go. You can't possibly be using Speed creep as an argument, that's just absurd.

Lolwut? No. Skarm puts the leftover EVs in Spe to prevent Max+ Spe Wobb from encoring Brave Bird. Not sure from what region of your butt you just pulled out the excuse "speed creep"

 

[phantom]

Lolwut? No. Skarm puts the leftover EVs in Spe to prevent Max+ Spe Wobb from encoring Brave Bird. Not sure from what region of your butt you just pulled out the excuse "speed creep"

LOL why don't you take a look at the onsite set to see where those 32 evs are being put into. This is what i'm referencing. Honestly, I'd hardly waste the evs on a pokemon that receives less than 2% usage lol. So I don't get your fucking point in suggesting that. Smells like bullshit imo.

 

[BKC]

skarm should be putting leftover evs into speed to beat other skarm to the ww and roost on slow[er] cbtar's stone edge. if it happens to outrun wobb then that's cool too but i wouldn't lose sleep over it considering how rare a sight it is.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Yeah... let be real here those speed evs aren't for Wob, they are to out speed opposing Skarms to Whirlwind or Taunt them before they do it to you.

 

[Meru]

LOL why don't you take a look at the onsite set to see where those 32 evs are being put into. This is what i'm referencing. Honestly, I'd hardly waste the evs on a pokemon that receives less than 2% usage lol. So I don't get your fucking point in suggesting that. Smells like bullshit imo.

I feel like this is posted on the forums on a daily basis but I'll have to repeat it anyway: usage isn't a good argument. Just look at Tornadus-I sitting down in UU. And I'd consider it wasting EVs if you put them into SpD when most Fire Blasts, Thunder(bolt)s, and even HP Fires are still going to 2HKO, if not flat out OHKO you, while most Scalds are still going to burn you. I also find it quite funny that you consider Skarmory running Spe EVs to be speed creep while not realizing that CBtar is doing the exact same thing by your definition.

 

[phantom]

I feel like this is posted on the forums on a daily basis but I'll have to repeat it anyway: usage isn't a good argument. Just look at Tornadus-I sitting down in UU. And I'd consider it wasting EVs if you put them into SpD when most Fire Blasts, Thunder(bolt)s, and even HP Fires are still going to 2HKO, if not flat out OHKO you, while most Scalds are still going to burn you. I also find it quite funny that you consider Skarmory running Spe EVs to be speed creep while not realizing that CBtar is doing the exact same thing by your definition.

Like I said before, I was looking at the onsite spreads for each of them when I was debating. Standard CB Ttar runs speed, skarmory doesn't. This is why when you add speed onto that skamory, you're speed creeping. I'm not saying that the speed lacks any legitimacy or anything, but I'd like to have a good foothold when I'm arguing. In this case, standard spreads and evs are the best way to go.

 

[MikeDawg]

I feel like this is posted on the forums on a daily basis but I'll have to repeat it anyway: usage isn't a good argument. Just look at Tornadus-I sitting down in UU. And I'd consider it wasting EVs if you put them into SpD when most Fire Blasts, Thunder(bolt)s, and even HP Fires are still going to 2HKO, if not flat out OHKO you, while most Scalds are still going to burn you. I also find it quite funny that you consider Skarmory running Spe EVs to be speed creep while not realizing that CBtar is doing the exact same thing by your definition.

Usage is a fantastic argument in this case.

There are so many threats to prepare for, so dedicating your efforts to one with such miniscule usage is just silly.

 

[Arcticblast]

Like I said before, I was looking at the onsite spreads for each of them when I was debating. Standard CB Ttar runs speed, skarmory doesn't. This is why when you add speed onto that skamory, you're speed creeping. I'm not saying that the speed lacks any legitimacy or anything, but I'd like to have a good foothold when I'm arguing. In this case, standard spreads and evs are the best way to go.

The on-site analysis originally had those EVs in Speed, but they were removed when it was decided that "Wobbuffet was irrelevant" without realizing the impact it would have on the CBTar vs. Skarm matchup.

Don't quote me on that reasoning, but the Speed EVs were definitely there at one point.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Except running enough Speed to beat CBTar would have been considered Speed creep, which is a no-no in analyses, so the only real option would have been to entirely remove the Speed EVs. And tell me, who uses +Spe Wobbuffet anymore?

However, because it's not uncommon to see Tyranitar using Fire Blast, it's still not smart to switch Skarmory in on Tyranitar even if you're Speed creeping.

 

[BLARG weather BLARG]

I've had a lot of fun with special ttar and custap skarmory lately. I still think that lead terrakion is the best lead in the game right now though.

 

[ElectivireRocks]

Anyone else finds Jellicent to be a complete bitch to spin against lately?
As gimmicky as it sounds, I've been considering using Ring Target + Trick Starmie just for that.