Other Evasion

[Pata Hikari]

I
None of the 19 battles beforehand used Double Team. The battle involving Double Team made me lose. That is why it's completely a big deal.

Who cares?

So you lost one match because of luck? So? You could have easily lost to a critical hit earlier, or an attack could have missed completely independently of double team, or a quick claw could have triggered or you could have just had the bad luck to have a poor match up.

 

[Celestial Phallus]

I honestly can't see how anybody who argues for evasion clause based on "luck" can do so while so many games in 5th Gen OU were based on game-breaking luck moves like a hit/miss Keldeo Hydro Pump or T-tar Stone Edge. Like, I get how evasion would be broken on some 'mons, but it's just lazy to ban it altogether for an entire tier when there are so many ways to counter it now.

Explain how those are game breaking luck moves? Do they cause almost every move in the game to potentially not hit their target?

 

[Pata Hikari]

Explain how those are game breaking luck moves? Do they cause almost every move in the game to potentially not hit their target?

Whether or not a Hydro Pump hits can mean the difference between victory or defeat.

Of course, one difference between Hydro Pump and Double team is this. When you use Hydro Pump, the odds, though lowered, are on your side. When you use Double Team... the odds are on the enemies side.

And that is why Double Team is a bad move and all it's unbanning would lead to a rush of usage, followed by a severe lowering and people realized how bad it was.

 

[Beast Mode]

Not gonna lie, this thread is getting pretty ridiculous. There are absolutely zero benefits of introducing evasion back into the metagame and the only argument that pro-evasion users have is that Double Team is bad and only bad players will use them. If Double Team is allowed, then some bad players will get lucky wins against better players because there is no surefire way to completely stop Double Team. The whole point of a stable metagame is to have better players usually beat worse players because they are more skilled at the game. If a good amount of battles are decided by one pokemon sweeping a team because the other team misses every move that they use, then the metagame turns to who is luckier rather than who is better.

 

[Rickyticq]

Explain how those are game breaking luck moves? Do they cause almost every move in the game to potentially not hit their target?

ummmmm, really? hahaha, the difference between using surf and h-pump on a keldeo is entirely one's preference on safe power or EVEN MORE risky power. And so let's say in a legitimately built team where one, maybe two mons have double team/minimize because it's really stupid to run anymore than that for risk of being set up on yourself by say, a moxie-Mence, I have my Keldeo run surf instead of H-pump because i feel that will miss less in the long run. Big deal. I think the risk factor of setting up 1 double team is approximately the same as the accuracy loss caused by trading surf for H-pump. It's really not a big deal if used smartly. And even if I'm completely wrong, how will anybody even know if this isn't tested this Gen?

 

[Shrug]

I honestly can't see how anybody who argues for evasion clause based on "luck" can do so while so many games in 5th Gen OU were based on game-breaking luck moves like a hit/miss Keldeo Hydro Pump or T-tar Stone Edge. Like, I get how evasion would be broken on some 'mons, but it's just lazy to ban it altogether for an entire tier when there are so many ways to counter it now.

So you have a Double team Blaziken on the other team

Do you send out Slowbro, your actual blaziken counter, and get baton passed on
Or your evasion counter and get, y'know, killed

Counterarguments to some common pro-evasion "ideas":
Diversity: Evasion doesn't make specific pokemon better; there aren't pokemon better at using evasion than any other. Baton Pass doesn't apply, considering how the whole purpose is to give the boosts off. Evasion wont make bad pokemon good, good pokemon will become a crapshoot to beat. And saying specific "counters" will increase in viablity is like saying Palkia should be allowed in OU because we need more Shedninja in our lives
Other moves can miss too: There's a key difference here: players who use hydro pump and miss, turning a win into a loss, are entirely culpable for using that move. They can still complain about it, because it sucks, but they did accept a degree of risk in using that move in the first place. Evasion's utility comes in getting skill-overmatched people a win where there should have been a loss, and if you like your moves to do that then i cant help you

 

[Celestial Phallus]

ummmmm, really? hahaha, the difference between using surf and h-pump on a keldeo is entirely one's preference on safe power or EVEN MORE risky power. And so let's say in a legitimately built team where one, maybe two mons have double team/minimize because it's really stupid to run anymore than that for risk of being set up on yourself by say, a moxie-Mence, I have my Keldeo run surf instead of H-pump because i feel that will miss less in the long run. Big deal. I think the risk factor of setting up 1 double team is approximately the same as the accuracy loss caused by trading surf for H-pump. It's really not a big deal if used smartly. And even if I'm completely wrong, how will anybody even know if this isn't tested this Gen?

I don't see how moxie-mence could safely set up on something evasion boosted because once it decides to attack, it has a damn good chance of missing (the opponent could continue to evasion boost while you set up). Next, if you use H-pump over surf and you miss, it is your own fault for choosing H-pump (not that I condone H-pump > Surf, I generally have either H-pump or both). Third, if you want to give evasion a spin, go play on the beta XY ubers ladder on PS!

 

[YataGarasu]

I can't believe people are being serious with their arguments.

In a fighting game, most non-bannable charactes have a counter. That does not mean that character should be allowed just because a counter exists. Just having a counter means absolute squat when the actual effectiveness of that counter is very small in the first place. "Phasing" has a counter in regards to evasion as many others have already posted beating me to that point. Keen Eye is on many weak Pokemon that are easy enough to slap the crap out of.

Certain no miss moves are mainly a joke, and or only hit a certain amount of pokemon. Which means EVERY single no miss move would have to be on your entire team. "Face a ghost type" Better have AA/Shockwave. Have a Ground type, that may be rock? You better have Aurasphere. Sure you could phase and lose everything just to counter the evasion. That doesn't matter.

The metagame would become about "Who can Double Team first" instead of "countering Double Team." as again, the counters in question aren't very viable in hind site.

Sure you can argue in the case of over centralization "What about SR" which I agree is questionable, especially with the lacking of many hard counters, and or how it over centralises the game.

However, just arguing "Well luck exists, so what" is a terrible joke at an argument. Going to a tournament, your hand may fall asleep. That's bad luck, it happens. However, that bad luck should be as limited in scope as possible for the very nature of competitive aspects. Otherwise you might as well not have a meta game, or competitive based game play in the first place.

 

[GRs Cousin]

Who cares?

So you lost one match because of luck? So? You could have easily lost to a critical hit earlier, or an attack could have missed completely independently of double team, or a quick claw could have triggered or you could have just had the bad luck to have a poor match up.

So you're not getting the point. The fact that I was completely curb-stomping the first 18 matches before a single move screwed me over shows just how bad a little bit of luck can be. I was using no moves less than 100% accuracy. We're not talking about Quick Claw. We're talking about how the use of one move can immediately make anything--anything--that was once weak and feeble into something able to simply win through manipulation of the RNG alone. We do not need a metagame about that. It's poor game-design to have a mechanic that solely relies on luck. Nobody is going to be happy if the winner of a tournament was someone who used plenty of Minimize and Double Team Pokemon, for example, when the majority of the rest of the competition actually had a level of skill and thought put into their Pokemon. Allowing evasion boosts in a metagame primarily about skill is counterproductive and adds nothing healthy to the game. That's been a fact for 5 generations now. A majority of our answers to evasion have been around since Generation 1, yet it still remains unanimous that evasion is broken.

I suppose you're going to tell me we should allow Moody and OHKO moves, while we're at it. After all, they're the exact same principle of evasion moves in that they rely on luck and RNG manipulation to be of any use.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

ummmmm, really? hahaha, the difference between using surf and h-pump on a keldeo is entirely one's preference on safe power or EVEN MORE risky power. And so let's say in a legitimately built team where one, maybe two mons have double team/minimize because it's really stupid to run anymore than that for risk of being set up on yourself by say, a moxie-Mence, I have my Keldeo run surf instead of H-pump because i feel that will miss less in the long run. Big deal. I think the risk factor of setting up 1 double team is approximately the same as the accuracy loss caused by trading surf for H-pump. It's really not a big deal if used smartly. And even if I'm completely wrong, how will anybody even know if this isn't tested this Gen?

When you use Hydro Pump, you take on a risk of hax upon yourself. When you run Double Team, you force a risk of hax upon your opponent that they did not opt for. These are nowhere near the same thing.

 

[neato]

That finally leaves the fact that Gliscor may have the set of Double Team/Substitute/Ice Fang/Taunt,

Pretty sure that is countered by any pokemon carrying leftovers. WTF are you going to do with a non stab 65 bp move coming from 226 attack? Pray double team turns into earthquake mid game?

Beat the following team with no more then two 'mons.

Hide

Espeon with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Toxic
Gliscor with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
Ninjask with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
(M)Absol with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Sucker Punch
Smeargle (Moody and Focus Sash) with Minimize, Baton Pass, Spore, Quiver Dance
Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Substitute, Toxic

All use their normal EVs and natures. Your 'mons have to work no matter what leads the battle. Gogogo.

how about you don't give me impossible pokemon first. Ninjask doesnt know taunt. once you give me actual non hacked pokemon well I still win 70% of the time since your first evasion boost only gives you 30% chance to evade. And if I miss that your second gives you 50% chance to evade meaning its 50/50 whether I break your chain or not. Nothing has changed about baton pass teams. The counter to them is still the same, phaze or haze. Only now the difference is terrible baton pass teams are using risky moves like double team, instead of for sure abilities like iron defense or amnesia.

Btw: do you know how ridiculous asking the question use 2 pokemon to beat my 6 is? Btw the answer crobat with taunt uturn to zapdos carrying a lum berry with whirlwind.

 

[Xiom]

Let's assume you can 2HKO your opponents Double Team user that got a free Double Team up on your switch in. For it to be useful you need to miss twice before killing it. In 3 moves we can see whether it was beneficial it or not. The options are Hit-Hit | Hit-Miss-Hit | Hit-Miss-Miss | Miss-Hit-Hit | Miss-Miss.

Hit-Hit (56.25%)
Hit-Miss-Hit (14.0625%)
Miss-Hit-Hit (14.0625%)
Hit-Miss-Miss (4.6875%)
Miss-Hit-Miss (4.6875%)
Miss-Miss (6.25%)

Double team have a 16% chance of being useful against an opponent that can 2HKO you, 28% chance of breaking even and 56% chance of wasting your turn.

 

[YataGarasu]

Just thought I'd mention: A move with less than 100 acc. is not really "random luck." A move with a specific percent of missing in your odds, is a ratio. For instance. That's why people who count cards and figure out those odds and abuse and manipulate them are escorted from casinos in the first place.

Before someone also argues "How is that different from DT if I calculate the ratio." Because you are factoring for the other person. It'd be like playing Poker, and having the opposition tell you what their hand is. It'd kill the skill concept of mind games, bluffing, and more. Sure mind games and bluffing take a chance, but reading a move or set up is a skill. Just hoping to randomly hit a high evasive Pokemon is quite a bit different.

That's why card games are also not that luck based. Sure, shuffling the deck is luck based to what your hand will be, but ever notice how most decks run the same 3-4 cards in multiples as to not get screwed by an "unlucky" hand? Same concept.

 

[Beast Mode]

once you give me actual non hacked pokemon well I still win 70% of the time since your first evasion boost only gives you 30% chance to evade. And if I miss that your second gives you 50% chance to evade meaning its 50/50 whether I break your chain or not.

First of all these hypothetical situations are getting pretty annoying because you can just respond with another hypothetical. Anyway you are basically saying that the entire game hinges on the turns that the person uses Double Team. Why would you want to play a game where one turn cuts your win percentage by 30% and the next turn cuts it by 50%?

 

[Demonages]

This is ridiculous, half of the arguments dont make sense, or are ignored if they do.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with randomness in a game, because it makes a game more interesting. However, that doesn't mean that a game should revolve around randomness, pokemon is not a casino.
The mayor part of evasion is that it makes the game more based on luck, and more importantly, it gives positive feedback. Things that brightpowerder, miss chances and secondary effect chances make it far less of a problem if problematic at all is because they have a static randomness. You know that there is a 70% to miss, or that you can get burned by 30%. However, evasion moves give the problem of it giving positive return. If you get that miss, the next hit will be increasingly more difficult to make. Everyone is annoyed with a crit but getting hit with a crit wont get worse due to the fact that you got hit.

Secondly, there is no counterplay. Now, let me explain this before you point me to the hazers phazers ect. Now stealthrock is ever present, but especially now there is strategy around it, counterplay as you will. Spinning and spinblocking is limited, so you know what you can do to deal with it. Also, you can choice to ignore spinblockers because its still viable to play with stealth rock on your side. ( Also added that stealth rock is a given, its static it will always do this in every single game always )
With evasion, neither is the case. You cannot ignore it because it affects every single offensive move you make, you cannot say im not gonna run this because i have no space for spinblockers so this and this might be more viable. You cannot say, i have to run unaware clefable because this option excist for the sole reason it excists.

Also, its not limited. You cannot asume that a defog and whirlwind alone is enough because you dont know what runs it. Your defog Skarmory might be more then adept of ruining the day of evasion gliscor, but you cannot hope for it to Defog an evasion jolteon or magnezone. Skarmory will simply fail doing so due to the fact that or Jolteon kills skarmory. Now with Roar you cannot deal with magic bouncers or soundproof pokes in addition. Give the fact that almost every single poke can learn evasion, there is no way that a single, 2 or even 3 can deal with it. Now you say you cannot deal with everything, your right. But your not dealing with everything, your dealing with just a single move. A single move uncounterable. Thats different then being able to reliable handle Breloom at the cost of infernape. Also this different with our lovely flinxhax because its limited in the available pokes that can run it ( Mostly Togekiss and Jirachi ). And IF you manage to kill of that 1 evasion user, WP. The next 5 can do the same!

Then theres still arguable that defog on its own is counterplay, because in order to be able to make any moves not limited on yourself exclusively you HAVE to switch to your defog/roarer and have it use that respective move. Something is not counterplay when your forced into it. Lets alone forget you give 2 free turns away where he can do anything he wants, while his setup alone has influance in the game due to the turn on which evasion boost is used already affects potential attacks directed its way.

Lastly, we have taunt. Taunt removes the counterplay completely of your oponent in a way not even sleep without a sleep clause can manage. It means that you have to attack me, but you cant attack me because you have to defog to attack me. If you switch i taunt again, or you lose your defog and you still cannot attack me. It removes counterplay due to the fact that its has positive feedback. When i taunt you, i win providing the luck is at my side. This actually removes play from both side. It's basically a tossup now.

Now lets discuss the positive side of this:

-It gives you more moves and options to use. Not more strategies, hope we're old enough to know that rolling a dice is not a strategie.
-Moody bidoof is not banned anymore.

Well, what would we rather have.

 

[neato]

I'm only responding with hypotheticals because everyone of your guy's arguments for evasion are hypotheticals.

 

[Beast Mode]

I'm only responding with hypotheticals because everyone of your guy's arguments for evasion are hypotheticals.

I know, I was just saying hypotheticals in general are annoying and don't prove any points

 

[Sound]

how about you don't give me impossible pokemon first. Ninjask doesnt know taunt. once you give me actual non hacked pokemon well I still win 70% of the time since your first evasion boost only gives you 30% chance to evade. And if I miss that your second gives you 50% chance to evade meaning its 50/50 whether I break your chain or not. Nothing has changed about baton pass teams. The counter to them is still the same, phaze or haze. Only now the difference is terrible baton pass teams are using risky moves like double team, instead of for sure abilities like iron defense or amnesia.

Excuse me for not knowing it didn't learned taunt. Taunt has weird distribution with no rhyme or reason. Just give it protect then. Since you know so much about probability, what are the odds of you hitting five pokemon using double team? If I'm correct, they go down each time the user of the team tries a double team. Oh, and what are the odds of phazing a pokemon with Magic Bounce, or the odds of being able to phaze after taking a spore, or while being taunted?

Can you, with no uncertainty whatsoever, say you can beat this team 100% of the time no matter what the user of the team does?

Also, hypotheticals can be used. If no one supporting evasion can figure out a way to beat my team 100% of the time, it stands to reason that Evasion is broken and should be banned.

 

[neato]

Excuse me for not knowing it didn't learned taunt. Taunt has weird distribution with no rhyme or reason. Just give it protect then. Since you know so much about probability, what are the odds of you hitting five pokemon using double team? If I'm correct, they go down each time the user of the team tries a double team. Oh, and what are the odds of phazing a pokemon with Magic Bounce, or the odds of being able to phaze after taking a spore, or while being taunted?

Can you, with no uncertainty whatsoever, say you can beat this team 100% of the time no matter what the user of the team does?

Also, hypotheticals can be used. If no one supporting evasion can figure out a way to beat my team 100% of the time, it stands to reason that Evasion is broken and should be banned.

I already did.

Crobat with taunt and u-turn to zapdos with lumberry and whirlwind. 2 hypothetical pokemon beat your 6 hypothetical pokemon. And we can do this for any combination of moves or pokemon. It doesnt have to be double team. You giving me a hypothetical puzzle and me solving it has nothing to do with any whether or not double team should be banned or not.

6 stages of evasion tops at 71.6% of evading.

edit - oh lol crobat gets infiltrator in gen vi. I can beat the whole team with one pokemon. then. Open with sub, wait till chain goes to keldeo. 100% accurate toxic that goes through subs.

 

[2DYouth]

In my opinion, the whole wasting a turn on a little bit of evasion just seems like a bad thing to do. like, using tackle for damage kind of bad (as opposed to just toxic for the metagame). Honestly, even if I was able to use the move, I wouldn't, because it just seems like a not good tactic. you have to spend a turn to set it up, only to maybe dodge 1 or 2 attacks (maybe more depending on how long you stay in). I feel like that turn could be better spent boosting offenses or defenses or setting up hazards or status or attacking straight up. I mean, if you can freely get up 2 double teams without dying (which i find you need for you to dodge a decent amount of attacks) and then not get countered by perfect accuracy or phazing or just getting hit anyway, then i guess more power to you, but if your opponent lets you do that, then theres a chance you honestly didnt need the evasion to win anyway. I dont mind if it gets unbanned, but i dont think it should be treated as a good tactic, and should be preached not to use for many reasons.

 

[Sound]

I already did.

Crobat with taunt and u-turn to zapdos with lumberry and whirlwind. 2 hypothetical pokemon beat your 6 hypothetical pokemon

How many others? Sure, that combination beats my team... The same Terrakion beats Arceus. How many others, though? Should everyone carry Crobat with Taunt and U-Turn, and Zapdos with Lum Berry and Whirlwind?

 

[Xiom]

Double team VS pokemon that can 3HKO

Hit-Hit-Hit (42.1875%)
Hit-Hit-Miss-Hit (10.546875%)
Hit-Miss-Hit-Hit (10.546875%)
Miss-Hit-Hit-Hit (10.546875%)
Hit-Hit-Miss-Miss (3.515625%)
Hit-Miss-Hit-Miss (3.515625%)
Miss-Hit-Hit-Miss (3.515625%)
Hit-Miss-Miss (4.6875%)
Miss-Hit-Miss (4.6875%)
Miss-Miss (6.25%)

26% chance it's useful against an opponent that can 3HKO you, 32% chance its break even and 42% chance it is wasting your turn.

4HKO
Hit-Hit-Hit-Hit (31.640625%)
Hit-Hit-Hit-Miss-Hit (7.91015625%)
Hit-Hit-Miss-Hit-Hit (7.91015625%)
Hit-Miss-Hit-Hit-Hit (7.91015625%)
Miss-Hit-Hit-Hit-Hit (7.91015625%)
The rest (36.71875%)

37% chance it's useful against opponent that can 4HKO you, 32% chance it breaks even and 32% chance it is wasting your turn

 

[neato]

How many others? Sure, that combination beats my team... The same Terrakion beats Arceus. How many others, though? Should everyone carry Crobat with Taunt and U-Turn, and Zapdos with Lum Berry and Whirlwind?

see my edit

crobat gets infiltrator in gen vi. I can beat the whole team with one pokemon then. Open with sub, wait till chain goes to keldeo. 100% accurate toxic that goes through subs. spam substitute till keldeo is dead. I still lose, because crobat struggles himself to death against 6 pokemon. honestly the hard part of your team is dealing with espeon, but thats the hard part of dealing with any baton pass team.

 

[Yamborski]

How many others? Sure, that combination beats my team... The same Terrakion beats Arceus. How many others, though? Should everyone carry Crobat with Taunt and U-Turn, and Zapdos with Lum Berry and Whirlwind?

Your hypothetical team is awful and so are you for suggesting it as a viable team anywhere.

Evasion is, was, and always will be banned because it introduces nothing good to the game. Remember how fucking annoying the foggy arena was in Pokemon Battle Revolution, or anything involving the land around Celestic town in D/P? Yeah now try and tell me that same style BS will help the game be more fun. If your only argument is "only bad players will use it and it will only sometimes help them win" then you should just leave this forum because that is not what this place is about at all. Competitive battling promotes a fair match between two players where skill is the most important factor of a match. Adding Evasion lowers the influence skill has on the game.

Of course most of you supporting a retest of Evasion either just picked up the game recently or are the kind of people who used Rest/Talk Curse Umbreon in BW OU so perhaps nothing I say will even make sense to you.

 

[LastFootnote]

Beat the following team with no more then two 'mons.

Hide

Espeon with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Toxic
Gliscor with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
Ninjask with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Taunt
(M)Absol with Double Team, Substitute, Baton Pass, Sucker Punch
Smeargle (Moody and Focus Sash) with Minimize, Baton Pass, Spore, Quiver Dance
Keldeo with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword, Substitute, Toxic

All use their normal EVs and natures. Your 'mons have to work no matter what leads the battle. Gogogo.

Y'know what should be banned instead of evasion? Substitute. All the amazing hypothetical evasion teams being posted here rely on Sub. It's such a bullshit move and just like Double Team, everything learns it. It makes the game boring. At least when your opponent uses evasion, you always have a chance to hit it. With Substitute, almost all interesting status moves are blocked, pushing the game toward boring attack moves. Why is it that we don't ban Sub?