Well I guess the upside is the Defog has limited PP, so its actually more easier to stall out than Rapid Spin. Still though I how a way is found to block it, perhaps there is a Defog mechanic we are missing.
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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He ran defog and then added no hazards on top of it so you could still freely switch. He would've been in a much better position had his Crobat ran taunt and he ran a spinner or something. It would've punished your wish-passing much harder. I don't think Defog will end stall, especially if people are too scared to run hazards alongside it (which while Spikes/TSpikes are probably out of the question, Rocks certainly wouldn't be), as that's essentially going to give stall the right to switch freely as well as remove hazards that help net OHKOs and 2HKOS that allow offensive 'mons to do their job.
Here are some new things Stall will need to focus on to be viable:
- What with nerfed weather and hazards for continuous damage the shift in focus should definitely be towards status. WoW's good accuracy mean that specially defensive Pokemon that can burn will have much better staying power than normal.
- As has been said, trapping moves will need to be a new form of passive damage. Expect Magma Storm Heatran to be a more common occurrence.
- Moves that prevent the opponent from moving or damaging you will need to increase in usage. Let's take Ambipom for example. Toxic incoming opponent. Protect next turn. Fake Out. Protect again. Use Dig/U-Turn to defensive pokemon. That's four turns of unpreventable Toxic damage. Freefall (Sky Drop?) takes up a turn and does damage the second. And let's not forget straight up flinching and confusion.
- New sleep mechanics makes Rest a viable move for healing on the bulkier walls.
- With weather no longer permanent, who is to say multi-weather teams or partial weather cores aren't viable? Politoed w/Damp Rock can function well enough and has access to Perish Song. Vaporeon can abuse Hydration and set up Acid Armors and wait out Toxic.
- Regular ol' rocks. Just rocks. Yeah, they can be defogged now, but your opponent still has to take the time to swap to a defogger and use the move. And the beauty is that you can still get them back up in a single turn if need be. It isn't hard to fill 1-2 move slots out of a possible 24 with Stealth Rock.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
- What with nerfed weather and hazards for continuous damage the shift in focus should definitely be towards status. WoW's good accuracy mean that specially defensive Pokemon that can burn will have much better staying power than normal.
- As has been said, trapping moves will need to be a new form of passive damage. Expect Magma Storm Heatran to be a more common occurrence.
- Moves that prevent the opponent from moving or damaging you will need to increase in usage. Let's take Ambipom for example. Toxic incoming opponent. Protect next turn. Fake Out. Protect again. Use Dig/U-Turn to defensive pokemon. That's four turns of unpreventable Toxic damage. Freefall (Sky Drop?) takes up a turn and does damage the second. And let's not forget straight up flinching and confusion.
- New sleep mechanics makes Rest a viable move for healing on the bulkier walls.
- With weather no longer permanent, who is to say multi-weather teams or partial weather cores aren't viable? Politoed w/Damp Rock can function well enough and has access to Perish Song. Vaporeon can abuse Hydration and set up Acid Armors and wait out Toxic.
- Regular ol' rocks. Just rocks. Yeah, they can be defogged now, but your opponent still has to take the time to swap to a defogger and use the move. And the beauty is that you can still get them back up in a single turn if need be. It isn't hard to fill 1-2 move slots out of a possible 24 with Stealth Rock.
Those are my thoughts anyway.
I don't exactly agree with the whole notion that gen 6 stall needs to focus more on trapping moves ITT. Historically, trapping moves like Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, and Wrap haven't been very good since gen 1 (maybe gen 2? Someone who plays GSC chime in on this). The reality is you end up trapping a counter/check to your trapper, forcing you to switch out. The best you get out of it is forcing them to stay in a turn and I think that honestly benefits an offensive team more than a defensive one. Even with the damage buff and Binding Band, I just don't think trapping with the aforementioned moves is going to be the savior for stall in XY. The best trappers, outside of traditional Pursuiters and Shadow Tag users, are Infestation Goodra and the above mentioned Magma Storm Heatran, IMO. I honestly like the offensive variant of Infestation Goodra better than the defensive one and Magma Storm Heatran really performs best on Sun teams, where it doesn't matter if you switch in a counter/check since Heatran will probably survive the hit.
The weather nerf won't affect stall. Having sandstorm and hail damage was just an additional perk. Stall doesn't NEED that extra damage.
I think we are making too big a deal out of Defog. Nearly every user shares the same weaknesses. In theory, stall should be using hazard setters that threaten Defog users: guys like Heatran and Tyranitar, maybe even Forretress. Scizor, Crobat, Skarmory and Gliscor (the four best Defog users IMO)do have recovery in Roost, but I believe it can be played around. Defog also has less PP than every other hazard (which you have multiples of), so worst case scenario is you PP stall it out. If you don't have the patience for that, you probably shouldn't be playing stall.
tl;dr we need to find ways to be aggressive vs. Defog users. I don't think we need to give up hazards at all
EDIT: I do realize that Heatran and Forretress aren't available in the current "454 metagame"(TM), but I'm more speaking in the long term. I think stall will be fine and will have more flexibility in XY as opposed to BW2, where it was (barely) viable but there was little to no room for creativity compared to offense and balance.
The weather nerf won't affect stall. Having sandstorm and hail damage was just an additional perk. Stall doesn't NEED that extra damage.
I think we are making too big a deal out of Defog. Nearly every user shares the same weaknesses. In theory, stall should be using hazard setters that threaten Defog users: guys like Heatran and Tyranitar, maybe even Forretress. Scizor, Crobat, Skarmory and Gliscor (the four best Defog users IMO)do have recovery in Roost, but I believe it can be played around. Defog also has less PP than every other hazard (which you have multiples of), so worst case scenario is you PP stall it out. If you don't have the patience for that, you probably shouldn't be playing stall.
tl;dr we need to find ways to be aggressive vs. Defog users. I don't think we need to give up hazards at all
EDIT: I do realize that Heatran and Forretress aren't available in the current "454 metagame"(TM), but I'm more speaking in the long term. I think stall will be fine and will have more flexibility in XY as opposed to BW2, where it was (barely) viable but there was little to no room for creativity compared to offense and balance.
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I haven't see it much personally, but Clamp has a mention in Cloyster's GSC analysis to be paired with Explosion to prevent them from switching out to something else to eat Explosion. Also I have seen it used in replays to trap Forretress and opposing Cloyster in and make sure it spins away Spikes and beats out Forretress and Cloyster for sure, with aid from the passive damage. I remember Borat, the self proclaimed GSC master, also lists it as a passable option on Cloyster. From my perspective though, it seems like just another 4th slot option on Cloyster who can pretty much really run anything there.
Shuckle's analysis is also based on Wrap, but seriously, its Shuckle, what the heck else is it going to do? It also has wrap for a few other generations for this same reason.
Shuckle's analysis is also based on Wrap, but seriously, its Shuckle, what the heck else is it going to do? It also has wrap for a few other generations for this same reason.
That's the problem I keep having with trapping moves. I keep thinking "Man, Infestation Goodra could be so good" but then I just feel like I'm inviting Azumarills to throw a dance party on my Goodra's face every time I think about in-game scenarios. Throwing a counter out is going to invite a switch into what counters you as it'd be stupid for someone to stay in if they can't beat you somehow. Let alone the fact that moves like Baton Pass, U-Turn, Volt Switch, and I assume Parting Shot also allow a free exit to it doesn't help, given the widespread distribution of U-Turn and the decent distribution of Volt Switch. I love the buff they got and in a late-game scenario, these moves are threatening as hell, but I just can't see a practical use for them.
Just a quick note about defog - it's not nearly so bad for stall as many people seem to be implying.
In order to understand why this is, you have to realise that, as a playstyle, there is no other team archetype that does more switching than Stall. This is important, because while Defog will get rid of hazards on your opponents' side of the field, it also means that your stall team won't have to deal with switching in to hazards either. I can't stress how much of a big deal this is. There are a lot of offensive pokemon that really rely on prior hazards damage to wear down and break through walls; it's actually pretty amazing how much more durable a stall team becomes when suddenly it's not taking SR damage with every switch. No, stall is actually (I think) going to be pretty good this gen - certainly better than it was in gen 5. The only difference is that the way that stall plays will be a bit different to past generations. So, instead of relying on hazards to build up passive damage, you'll be using a lot more status (i.e. will-o-wisp and toxic) as well as sandstorm, leech seed and support attacks like Scald/ Lava Plume/ Seismic Toss (etc) to wear them down instead.
Also, keep in mind that the 'Defog War' has interesting repercussions on the Defog user. See, if you're running defog on your team, then it's counter-intuitive to run Stealth Rock or Spikes on your team, as you'll just end up removing your own hazards. What's more, having no hazards on either side of the field doesn't especially give an advantage to either team, as each side benefits from not taking the residual damage. But, if the defog user dies, then your opponent (who DOES have hazards) all of a sudden gets a massive advantage.
For this reason, there are still plenty of good reasons why a team may opt for SR user + Rapid Spinner (even for offensive teams), as you still have hazard-stacking protection, while being able to create hazards pressure of your own.
In order to understand why this is, you have to realise that, as a playstyle, there is no other team archetype that does more switching than Stall. This is important, because while Defog will get rid of hazards on your opponents' side of the field, it also means that your stall team won't have to deal with switching in to hazards either. I can't stress how much of a big deal this is. There are a lot of offensive pokemon that really rely on prior hazards damage to wear down and break through walls; it's actually pretty amazing how much more durable a stall team becomes when suddenly it's not taking SR damage with every switch. No, stall is actually (I think) going to be pretty good this gen - certainly better than it was in gen 5. The only difference is that the way that stall plays will be a bit different to past generations. So, instead of relying on hazards to build up passive damage, you'll be using a lot more status (i.e. will-o-wisp and toxic) as well as sandstorm, leech seed and support attacks like Scald/ Lava Plume/ Seismic Toss (etc) to wear them down instead.
Also, keep in mind that the 'Defog War' has interesting repercussions on the Defog user. See, if you're running defog on your team, then it's counter-intuitive to run Stealth Rock or Spikes on your team, as you'll just end up removing your own hazards. What's more, having no hazards on either side of the field doesn't especially give an advantage to either team, as each side benefits from not taking the residual damage. But, if the defog user dies, then your opponent (who DOES have hazards) all of a sudden gets a massive advantage.
For this reason, there are still plenty of good reasons why a team may opt for SR user + Rapid Spinner (even for offensive teams), as you still have hazard-stacking protection, while being able to create hazards pressure of your own.
Can we discuss how stall will deal with BellyJet Azumarill? I'm finding trouble thinking of counters for it without deviating from stalling pokes. Not only that but switching in an attacker with higher priority than aqua jet, it could take a huge power boosted move to the face if predicted correctly. So just how could stall combat this?
No one can make a perfect team, the best you can do sometimes is have multiple check to a Pokemon in order to deal with it, and sometimes you just have to take intelligent risks when team building. Currently I am using Ferrothorn to check Bellymarill, however a Choice Band Superpower will almost KO Ferrothorn, that's just the risk I take in battle.
There are a few other Pokemon you can try out to, like Tentacruel for example who can outspeed and KO with Sludge Bomb. It should be noted that unless Bellymarill runs a set like Aqua Jet / Rough Play / Waterfall, it actually lacks the power to break through Pokemon like Slowbro and Tangrowth, you if you keep on facing people with Superpower, run that.
Garchompi
Banned deucer.
Jellicent with WoW.
Have you done the calcs with Play Rough?
^+6 Adamant Life Orb Azumarill does 207.44-244.16% to standard 252HP/ 248 +Def Jellicent. However, Jellicent does have a higher base speed stat than Azumarill (50<60), so if Azu is Belly Drumming on the switch, then it'll need to run some Speed EVs in order to make sure it outspeeds and kills Jellicent before it can either WoW, or Shadow Ball. And Shadow Ball only does 22-26% (though seeing as BD cuts Azumarill's HP down to half, and life orb takes off a bit more, this at least it puts it in revenge range).
I'm kind of liking the idea of Rotom-W as a check though. You can run enough speed to outpace Azu bar Aqua Jet (which even at +6 doesn't KO), and then you can KO right back with Volt Switch. Rotom-W has some nice utility on stall too, what with Volt Switch and a buffed 85% acc WoW. Unfortunately you do get a bit crippled by the AJ though.
I think the best way of beating Azumarill for stall is, well, prediction. Which isn't great, but there it is. See, the thing is - while Belly Drum makes Azu insanely strong, it also cuts it's HP by half and you can really take advantage of that. Along with Life Orb, sandstorm and potentially hazards damage, stall can still cut off Azu's sweep if you play it right.
I'm kind of liking the idea of Rotom-W as a check though. You can run enough speed to outpace Azu bar Aqua Jet (which even at +6 doesn't KO), and then you can KO right back with Volt Switch. Rotom-W has some nice utility on stall too, what with Volt Switch and a buffed 85% acc WoW. Unfortunately you do get a bit crippled by the AJ though.
I think the best way of beating Azumarill for stall is, well, prediction. Which isn't great, but there it is. See, the thing is - while Belly Drum makes Azu insanely strong, it also cuts it's HP by half and you can really take advantage of that. Along with Life Orb, sandstorm and potentially hazards damage, stall can still cut off Azu's sweep if you play it right.
252 HP Careful natured Small Gourgeist checks BellyJet Azumarill if you feel like using Gourgeist as your spinblocker. +6 Aqua Jet doesn't OHKO and Small Gourgeist outspeeds it and OHKOs with Seed Bomb after Belly Drum and one round of LO recoil. So, there's that.
And what FrostFire said above.
98 Speed EVs with Neutral Nature (or 24 with Positive Nature) are enough to outspeed Max Speed Adamant Azumarill with Ludicolo. x4 resist Aqua Jet and easily KO back 50% Azumarill with grass attack. It's much better under rain, but can work without it as well, as he can check pretty well water, ice, grass and earth types (and some fire as well) with his good special bulk, so it should be fine on stall and not be limited only for Azumarill. I think this set should work:
Ludicolo @ Leftovers
Timid / Calm Nature
252 HP / 226 SpD / 24 Spe
~ Leech Seed
~ Protect
~ Grass Knot / Energy Ball
~ Surf / Ice Beam / Toxic
I think this looks fine this way. I would go with Timid personally, as you save lots of EVs this way, but both options are fine. If you face Choice Band, you are faster, so you can work around it. And no attack hit you for SE damage, so you check it in more reliable way than for example Ferrothorn, which doesn't enjoy taking CB Superpower in the face.
Another mon, which IMO may see some good niche use in this metagame. It's Intimidate Qwilfish. It easily survive +6 Adamant Life Orb Aqua Jet (counting Intimidate as well) while it doesn't even need ANY EVs to outspeed max speed Adamant Azumarill, so may go all out and invest in physical bulk (or run positive speed nature if you don't want Jolly version to outspeed you). Anyway you resist every single move except Double-Edge/Return on Azumarill and hit it for SE damage with Poison Jab. Water/Poison sounds like a really anti-metagame typing with Fairies and Fighting types all around. Something worth to consider I guess. While Spikes/Toxic Spikes with Defog may look less appealing, your base HP is pretty low so you can actually use Pain Split for recovery, and having hazards is always nice to have (bait Defog user and eliminate or something).
Here's the 4-man sand stall core I've been using to great effect. I played 20 games in the pokebankbeta room to test it out against all the new threats people are playing with and I went 17-3. Some people are hacking together rather random sweepers for their team though so we'll see if stall continues its viability when things settle down and there's an actual metagame to plan accordingly to. However, none of these stally guys are going anywhere, but, some troublesome offensive threats might actually end up as ubers, making stall's job that much easier.
Talonflame is one hell of a stallbreaker and really needs to be played around carefully. MegaGengar also has many tricks up his sleeve and, if played correctly, can at the very least almost guarantee taking down at least one pokemon with his destiny bond or perish trap. I'm using one right now; my team is 5 stallers + MegaGengar. There are also lots of dittos out there, so stall is nice because none of them can really hurt each other. LO Greninja is everywhere and seriously hardly ever kills anything. I've ran into some sitrus berry Trevanents and poison heal gliscors, who are very tough to break through. Taunt Jellicent is also quite tricky. Lastly, Zapdos is problematic if you can't get a toxic on it.
And that's the Day 1 stall report. Result: stall is just fine.
The star of the team? RestTalk Gyarados. The game is extremely physically oriented and everyone is using Swords Dance like 6 times a match, what with MegaScizor, Talonflame, Aegislash, Blaziken, and Megalucario all over the place. Gyarados shits on them all, takes a nap, and wakes up anytime after you've sat through 2 turns of Sleep Talk.
Talonflame is one hell of a stallbreaker and really needs to be played around carefully. MegaGengar also has many tricks up his sleeve and, if played correctly, can at the very least almost guarantee taking down at least one pokemon with his destiny bond or perish trap. I'm using one right now; my team is 5 stallers + MegaGengar. There are also lots of dittos out there, so stall is nice because none of them can really hurt each other. LO Greninja is everywhere and seriously hardly ever kills anything. I've ran into some sitrus berry Trevanents and poison heal gliscors, who are very tough to break through. Taunt Jellicent is also quite tricky. Lastly, Zapdos is problematic if you can't get a toxic on it.
And that's the Day 1 stall report. Result: stall is just fine.
Garchompi
Banned deucer.
I hate to be the bringer of bad news but it seems Leftovers and Black Sludge have been nerfed. They've been reported to heal 5 out of 117 HP here http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/696959-pokemon-x/67535789, meaning they seem to heal 1/24 per turn now.
If it's true this is the single greatest nerf to stall teams and the final nail in the coffin.
If it's true this is the single greatest nerf to stall teams and the final nail in the coffin.
Just tested and that's false.
Solar Power Charizard @ Leftovers
Health went from 182 -> 160 -> 171, then next turn from 171 -> 149 -> 160
I actually disagree with part of this. This may be because I'm a Combat Pragmatist, but whatever the reason, I still disagree.
If a tactic can be used in a game, then it's fair game. If you're not ready for it, tough. Sweeping, stalling, paraflinch - any and all of them go.
'Nuff said.
That's your problem. If you aren't willing to do what it takes to win, then you really have no business in this game. If you want, go find someone who plays by your rules.
I can at least sympathize with Subject 18 because I understand how having something left to chance can be be a pain in the butt. For you, though - you, who are apparently too lazy to come up with a decent plan to deal with stall... I have no sympathy.
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Was fun plying xmillterlitex and this isn't a knock on him but this is a stall vs mega gyara, garchomp, talonflame, kefki
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58683423
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58683423
I gotta say I am actually pretty impressed at how well rains tall can function without perma-rain.
I have been playing a bit more with that double sand team still, it has a bit of a learning curve but I think its got great potential, the main problem actually is Spikes... whatever the water starter is, Excadrill obviously is a poor spinner to that.
Tentacruel is actually looking pretty solid as a spinner so far from what I have tested with it.
I have been playing a bit more with that double sand team still, it has a bit of a learning curve but I think its got great potential, the main problem actually is Spikes... whatever the water starter is, Excadrill obviously is a poor spinner to that.
Tentacruel is actually looking pretty solid as a spinner so far from what I have tested with it.
I used the rain situationally to either gain rain boosted scalds to break klefki subs or rain dish for tentacruel. While it would be nice to heal Tenta like that all match long, I use it a here and there instead. Or if there's an incoming fire attack maybe I'll switch around a bit and get rain involved before I go to Ferrothorn just like in Gen 5. Gen 6 is tough because of megas and talonflame mostly but so far I've been able to take care of them all pretty much with blissey and quagsire alone. I really can't understate how useful Quagsire is. He's been the MVP of every single one of my wins so far. My ferro set could use some adjusting(rocks, spikes, power whip, gyro ball) but in a way it works. That team is pretty much your standard rain team and so far so good.
I haven't tried any gen 6 defensive mons or megas yet but I like the meta a lot. I've been stalling throughit to get a feel for things and see what's going on.
Tenta is okay for the spinner. I like it over other spinners because of TS which helps the stall quite a bit of course. All in all maybe you just have to be more systematic and target your opponents mons more speciifically with your stall team instead of kind of waiting on them to die all together. I've been pretty choosy about how I've been killing things so far, more so than I was in gen 5, where my playing was more or less automatic. Now I'm targeting things with my stall and making sure I have what I neeed. It's working and it's a lot more fun than "Terrak -> Gliscor" type of playing.
I haven't tried any gen 6 defensive mons or megas yet but I like the meta a lot. I've been stalling throughit to get a feel for things and see what's going on.
Tenta is okay for the spinner. I like it over other spinners because of TS which helps the stall quite a bit of course. All in all maybe you just have to be more systematic and target your opponents mons more speciifically with your stall team instead of kind of waiting on them to die all together. I've been pretty choosy about how I've been killing things so far, more so than I was in gen 5, where my playing was more or less automatic. Now I'm targeting things with my stall and making sure I have what I neeed. It's working and it's a lot more fun than "Terrak -> Gliscor" type of playing.
Mmm I don't think you should run both hazards and both attacks on Ferro, but I'm not sure what you should drop off the top of my head. It'd probably be best to use something along the lines of Protect/Rocks/Leech Seed/Power Whip to deal with Bulky Waters (as your team doesn't really care much about them but doesn't seem to break through them easily) but the hazard of Scald (or WoW from Rotom/Jellicent) seems quite high.
On a side note, the Quagsire pick is really neat. Unaware's a great ability and if it weren't for Mold Breaker, that would've walled that Gyarados well.
On a side note, the Quagsire pick is really neat. Unaware's a great ability and if it weren't for Mold Breaker, that would've walled that Gyarados well.
I'm happy to see that you use that team yuy and its doing well. i would change some of the dragonite attack and maybe ferro too since he get wreck now without rain up all the time maybe kefty could serve better the team. I think stall will see play in this meta but we need to see what can check the mega mon around (specialy lucario).
stall teams will pretty much die out from defog, if it truely removes hazards from both sides. Defog also has a reasonably wide number of recipients and is unblockable. This means that "stall" will probably entail statusing with toxic and praying that your opponent doesnt have healbell/aroma
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