Other 6th Gen Pokemon UU Candidate Speculation Thread

[sidakarya]

I do admit, it was completely overhyped as the Dragon counters to end them all. They aren't, and dragons like Garchomp and Dragonite have plenty of ways around them. (It really doesn't help, that fairies were so heavily marketed as a dragon counter that it overstretched people's expectations.)

Still, their very presence means dragons can no longer blindly spam the "Click Here To Win" Button anymore like in Gen 5, and dragon-users are forced to play smart to get around their new checks. Outrage is actually riskier to use if anything, because knocking out something too early when a fairy is waiting guarantees a free turn for what have you, including Azumarill setting up Belly Drum in your face. And what viable ones we have are good enough that they do affect the metagame in a noticeable way. For example, fairies basically took away Salamence's main niche as a fast scarfer, being one more thing on top of Steels and Mamoswine that you have to eliminate to make it work. Even Mixmence has lost viability because it can't hit every Fairy- and Steel-type at once. Dragonite's 4-moveslot-syndrome is really bad nowadays, as it can no longer hit all of Togekiss, Azumarill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Heatran and M-Aggron and Extremespeed all at once without using a Band (which is already a dicey idea by itself). Before you could just get by with Fire Punch and maybe Earthquake for Heatran and be done with it.

Though I agree, the Fighting-type and the Dark-type were more affected than Dragon. Azumarill's biggest gain from its new typing is arguably not its dragon immunity, but its Fighting resist. Togekiss' main advantage over say, Jirachi, is that it can also decently check many Fighting-types thanks to its double resistance in addition to Dragons.

If Haxorus and Hydreigon (and Salamence if you really stretch it) do drop down, they'll certainly be too much for UU even with potential UU fairies and possibly banned. Again, they have moves to get around Sylveon and Clefable.

At the end of it all, it's just another type that's good but not godly. Dragons are still powerful, but no longer uncontrollable.

 

[CavemanCossy]

On the topic of Starmie; I definitely see it dropping to UU. But, I'm going to be fair and offer some defense for it. If it were to stay in OU, it would be for the following reasons;

- Greninja may be faster and get STAB on everything, but one paralysis is the end of it's usefulness. Starmie, on the other hand, has Natural Cure to shave it off.

- Aegislash running rampant is definetely a problem, but it's not like it's unbeatable. The previous gen introduced Ferrothorn, who checked Starmie pretty well and Starmie still stayed OU.

- Analytic is also a very nice ability to destroy anything that tries switching in.

Other than that, pursuit seems to remain popular especially with the nerf to steel types. Ghost attacks are now perhaps the best offensive type as it is only resisted by Dark and immune to Normal. As for Assault Vest, Tyranitar essentially checks nearly all special attackers and Goodra seems to be rising in popularity every time I play in Wi-Fi. And of course, the nerf to special attacks defintely hurts Starmie. Here's me hoping that my favorite Deathstar doesn't fall to UU, but it seems like there are very few reasons to use Starmie over Greninja, who can handle Aegislash with Dark Pulse / HP Fire STAB and is faster.

 

[sidakarya]

Starmie still has the niche as fast, offensive Rapid Spinner and revenge-killer in one. Excadrill give it competition as a rapid-spinner, but it needs the sand to be speedy.

 

[Aldrius]

I don't think Togekiss is on the same level as Azumarill and Mega Mawile.
It got screwed big time by being unable to learn Moon Blast, which would have been absolutely terryfing on something with Serene Grace. Instead it has to settle for Dazzling Gleam which is simply not worth running over Air Slash, which has similiar coverage and a 60% chance of flinching at the cost of 5 BP and 5 accuracy.
Of course Togekiss still has a horrible 4 moveslot syndrome so it can't afford to run both its STABs when it needs to pick three of Fire Blast/Aura Sphere, Roost, Thunder Wave/Body Slam, Heal Bell and Nasty Plot.
While its new type gives it new resistances and a dragon immunity, it does nothing to fix its previous weaknesses and it even adds two new ones.
The final nail in the coffin is its base 80 speed, which lower than any common dragon type so it can't fullfill the role of a "dragon counter" when it risks a 2HKO from most of them.

I believe it will be a top threat in UU and perhaps it will go to BL, but it has too many flaws to be consistent in OU.

Thing about Togekiss is, unless the Garchomp/Dragonite in question is running the right set. (Dragonite needs Iron Head or Fire Punch and Garchomp needs Stone Edge or Iron Head) Togekiss will just wall it and set up on it, and either of those running Iron Head or Stone Edge is just BEGGING to be walled by Skarmory and again, set-up on. Even THEN non-STAB fire punch doesn't do much unless it's boosted, and Stone Edge is unreliable. Togekiss' is just too bulky and hits too hard.

So yeah it does make a good dragon-counter and it can set up on them. I think Togekiss is flawed, but I think as one of the best fairy types in the game it will see a lot of use. It fills a totally unique niche that a lot of teams will need.

 

[sidakarya]

Dragonite does get Thunderpunch, which probably will start to be more common to hit Togekiss and Skarmory at once. Then again, running that means you're totally set-up bait for Ferrothorn, so.

 

[Aldrius]

Dragonite does get Thunderpunch, which probably will start to be more common to hit Togekiss and Skarmory at once. Then again, running that means you're totally set-up bait for Ferrothorn, so.

Yeah and that's really what the fairy type did. Gave a dragon type-check that doesn't get covered by dragons' usual dragon-type coverage stuff.

 

[Patrick1088]

On the topic of Starmie; I definitely see it dropping to UU. But, I'm going to be fair and offer some defense for it. If it were to stay in OU, it would be for the following reasons;

- Greninja may be faster and get STAB on everything, but one paralysis is the end of it's usefulness. Starmie, on the other hand, has Natural Cure to shave it off.

- Aegislash running rampant is definetely a problem, but it's not like it's unbeatable. The previous gen introduced Ferrothorn, who checked Starmie pretty well and Starmie still stayed OU.

- Analytic is also a very nice ability to destroy anything that tries switching in.

Other than that, pursuit seems to remain popular especially with the nerf to steel types. Ghost attacks are now perhaps the best offensive type as it is only resisted by Dark and immune to Normal. As for Assault Vest, Tyranitar essentially checks nearly all special attackers and Goodra seems to be rising in popularity every time I play in Wi-Fi. And of course, the nerf to special attacks defintely hurts Starmie. Here's me hoping that my favorite Deathstar doesn't fall to UU, but it seems like there are very few reasons to use Starmie over Greninja, who can handle Aegislash with Dark Pulse / HP Fire STAB and is faster.

Are you comparing starmie and greninja as special attackers? Greninja doesnt get rapid spin so theyre not really comparable in that aspect.

As far as special attackers go i think greninja is good but struggles against bulky waters. Grass knot is good, but its no thunder(bolt) even with the nerf. Do i think starmie faces a lot of competition this gen between faster threats like talonflame and greninja? Definitely. Do i think itll drop? I hope so since uu needs spinners (although avalugg looks pretty good with that bulk...)

 

[JustLetMePlay]

Are you comparing starmie and greninja as special attackers? Greninja doesnt get rapid spin so theyre not really comparable in that aspect.

As far as special attackers go i think greninja is good but struggles against bulky waters. Grass knot is good, but its no thunder(bolt) even with the nerf. Do i think starmie faces a lot of competition this gen between faster threats like talonflame and greninja? Definitely. Do i think itll drop? I hope so since uu needs spinners (although avalugg looks pretty good with that bulk...)

Greninja is entirely comparable to Starmie as a Special Attacker. How it isn't comparable to Starmie is as a fast, offensive RS user. But a glass cannon special attacker? Purely comparable and probably outclasses Starmie in this role by a fair while.

Your thunderbolt comment is moot seeing as HP Electric with Protean has the same effective power as non-STAB TB allowing it to run boltbeam at least just as effectively but probably more so than Starmie due to STAB Ice Beam. It's not that Greninja doesn't have coverage, it's got entirely too MUCH coverage.

 

[Hidious]

Starmie is my second favorite pokemon (behind Dragonite) and I'm hoping it drops to uu because unfortunately our little star doesn't shine very well this generation. With defog, excadrill, and mega blastoise, starmie has lost its place as a great selection on any team. And With rotom wash being amazing in this metagame and no permanent rain, it's hard to fit starmie into a team. I'm certainly not going to use starmie on any of my ou teams, and I've used it on most of my teams since my first battle in gen 1

 

[Upstart]

I honestly don't see The Fairy Type being the big Dragon Slaying Type people are hyping it up to be. One if you Draco/Outrage into a Fairy on the switch in say a Azumarill switches in onto the Garchomp's Outrage, you don't receive the negative effects of those moves. Secondly, Only three Fairies outside of Xerneas and Fairy Arceus seem viable, being Mawile, Togekiss, and Azumarill, with the former needing to eat up your Mega slot to not be dead weight, meaning you can't use Mega Khan, Mega Gengar or any other Mega. As I said, three fairies aren't gonna stop a Legion of Dragons. The only Dragons I see dropping from OU were ones that were slipping in usage anyway like Haxorus, but Haxorus will almost certainly get banned to BL, and maybe Hydreigon with that x4 Fairy Weakness, but again, something that Powerful is likely gonna be relegated to BL. Overall, I think Fairy has balanced Dragons to the point where there not the end all type to use, but I feel Fairy is gonna affect the Dark and Fighting types more then the Dragon type.

To begin, fairies are not dragon counters but rather a means to counter dragon spam. Outrage is a death sentence when utilized against the fairy as the Dragon must perform outrage until it becomes confused and will likely die to the fairy long before they become confused.

Your objection that there is no good fairies followed by the fairies will punish the dark and fighting types is contradictory. Fighting and Dark types present the same raw power while possessing the ability to run coverage moves to deal with the fairies as well.

In truth I believe that Fairies will have a very limited effect in UU as most of the fairies will fall to RU due to the lack of power. Their biggest impact will without the ability to tank outrages in place of the nerfed steel types. Gardevoir, mawile, florgees and eventually klefki seem to possess the greatest potential in UU. They will without a doubt place a heavy reliance on coverage moves utilized by the fighting, dark, and dragon types that will litter the entire tier.

 

[CavemanCossy]

Greninja is entirely comparable to Starmie as a Special Attacker. How it isn't comparable to Starmie is as a fast, offensive RS user. But a glass cannon special attacker? Purely comparable and probably outclasses Starmie in this role by a fair while.

Your thunderbolt comment is moot seeing as HP Electric with Protean has the same effective power as non-STAB TB allowing it to run boltbeam at least just as effectively but probably more so than Starmie due to STAB Ice Beam. It's not that Greninja doesn't have coverage, it's got entirely too MUCH coverage.

It is worth noting that Greninja suffers from running Hidden Power. While it is true it has excellent coverage thanks to Protean, it HAS to choose between HP fire and HP electric; like you said, electric + ice beam forms the boltbeam combo, but fire allows Greninja to get past Ferrothorn. Taking STAB from Protean into consideration;

252+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 140-165 (39.77 - 46.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb (custom) Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 411-489 (116.76 - 138.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

IMO, Greninja is better off running HP fire, but I can see why HP Electric is attractive with Ice Beam. The problem is CHOOSING one of these, and so every Greninja will be lacking in coverage.

To keep this on topic; Starmie, on the other hand, can choose to run Thunderbolt, Ice beam, Hydro Pump and HP Fire, something Greninja can't do... even so, I don't see it doing this as it's main attraction is spinning, so who knows? Maybe Starmie will finally be UU this gen, since I don't fully believe that spinning and the small advantages it has over Greninja outweigh the cons it received this gen.

 

[Upstart]

To weigh in on the Starmie v Greninja debate. Greninja is a better special lo orb attacker however this does not make Greninja better overall. Starmie has access to recover, natural cure, and rapid spin all of which are top tier. This goes for starmie as well as the metagame as a whole but people cannot pigeonhole pokemon into the same sets they ran last gen. This is a whole new gen and a pokemon must adapt to take advantage of the multitude of changes in mechanics as well as what is appearing to be large tier shifting.

 

[Jaroda]

Haxorus won't be UU. It's too strong and frankly, REALLY anti-meta right now with it's sheer power and Mold Breaker.

- Mold Breaker EQ hits Aegislash, Rotom-W and Rotom-H, Gengar, Klefki, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Lucario and Excadrill super hard, most being OHKOs. And later Heatran.
- Outrage is not a liability with Fairies unless you are choiced. Switching in stops the move and prevents confusion and if Azumaril tries to Belly Drum on you it gets EQ or a Poison Jab to the face and bites it. Most Fairies are simply not bulky enough physically and Haxorus has one of the highest natural Attack stats available. Unaware Clefable is the only real threat with Moonblast, and Mega Mawile would have to get you with Sucker Punch.
- Mold Breaker and a better speed tier means Multiscale Dragonite is going down regardless of Stealth Rock.
- It's speed tier is decent, able to outpace many slower mon that would be reliant on scarf or DDance. Rotom-W being notable. If it comes in on a DDance not even Scarf variants can outspeed and paralyze or burn you.

Of course it would need two dances to outpace scarf Garchomp, Ferrothorn is still a bitch especially with Iron Barbs, and it can't tank Talonflame or Scizor's priority. That being said with a Lum berry DDance set, or a possible scarf it can drop many of the top threats currently in use. Can even outspeed Mega Gengar at +1.

 

[T-Bolt]

Haxorus won't be UU. It's too strong and frankly, REALLY anti-meta right now with it's sheer power and Mold Breaker.

- Mold Breaker EQ hits Aegislash, Rotom-W and Rotom-H, Gengar, Klefki, Mega Mawile, Tyranitar, Lucario and Excadrill super hard, most being OHKOs. And later Heatran.
- Outrage is not a liability with Fairies unless you are choiced. Switching in stops the move and prevents confusion and if Azumaril tries to Belly Drum on you it gets EQ or a Poison Jab to the face and bites it. Most Fairies are simply not bulky enough physically and Haxorus has one of the highest natural Attack stats available. Unaware Clefable is the only real threat with Moonblast, and Mega Mawile would have to get you with Sucker Punch.
- Mold Breaker and a better speed tier means Multiscale Dragonite is going down regardless of Stealth Rock.
- It's speed tier is decent, able to outpace many slower mon that would be reliant on scarf or DDance. Rotom-W being notable. If it comes in on a DDance not even Scarf variants can outspeed and paralyze or burn you.

Of course it would need two dances to outpace scarf Garchomp, Ferrothorn is still a bitch especially with Iron Barbs, and it can't tank Talonflame or Scizor's priority. That being said with a Lum berry DDance set, or a possible scarf it can drop many of the top threats currently in use. Can even outspeed Mega Gengar at +1.

Sadly, Haxorus isn't going to drop because it's unviable, but because people don't use it. It was nearly UU last Gen, and with a new weakness, there isn't much question of Haxorus not dropping. It'll probably get suspected and banned soon after it drops though.

 

[Jaroda]

In the initial meta sure, it's usage will be low. Like people said, everyone is experimenting. It's when the tried and true mon that will never leave OU become cemented that you begin to see the rise of anti-meta mon to counter such threats, thus making them totally OU worthy later. We've seen this revolving door of OU candidates before, where their success largely depends on what their competition is. Haxorus has the tools to thrive in this meta when played conservatively, being a very threatening presence to many of the top 20, but only when people take notice of that fact will it become OU. Fairies are a smaller threat than they are perceived to be, again because of Haxy's raw strength and coverage options. And Fairy moves are honestly not too common. Certainly not on Azumarill, Mega Mawile or Togekiss.

 

[Littha]

Certainly not on Azumarill, Mega Mawile or Togekiss.

A fair number of Mawile's seem to run Play Rough at least. The others... not so much.

 

[Jaroda]

A fair number of Mawile's seem to run Play Rough at least. The others... not so much.

Mega Mawile can only outspeed Haxorus with Sucker Punch though. The two check each other really. If Haxorus runs Substitute, which for things like Mega Mawile and Aegislash isn't a horrible idea, it wins easily, making SP fail.

 

[Patrick1088]

Greninja is entirely comparable to Starmie as a Special Attacker. How it isn't comparable to Starmie is as a fast, offensive RS user. But a glass cannon special attacker? Purely comparable and probably outclasses Starmie in this role by a fair while.

Your thunderbolt comment is moot seeing as HP Electric with Protean has the same effective power as non-STAB TB allowing it to run boltbeam at least just as effectively but probably more so than Starmie due to STAB Ice Beam. It's not that Greninja doesn't have coverage, it's got entirely too MUCH coverage.

I think there mightve been some miscommunication. I was trying to say comparing starmie and greninja is like comparing apples to oranges. Both have similar special base attack and access to powerful coverage moves. Both sit in great speed tiers also. However it is at that point that their similarities end. Greninja has 2 main roles as a pure special attacker with hydro pump/ice beam/dark pulse/grass knot/hp of choice. The other role is a fast spike user almost similar to froslass. Its ability will almost always be protean.

As for starmie it can run rapid spin, trickspecs, trick scarf (really good with all these megas), access to recover and natural cure gives it longevity in addition to its fantastic coverage. As for a pure offensive set i think it is outclassed by ninja for several reasons. Its pursuit weak, much slower, can be easily handked by aegislash.

One more perk to starmie s psyshock which helps it bypass special walls not named tyranitar.

Both are good but each have their own niche roles. Ninja came at a time when breloom was nerfed due to fairies and spore. So he doesnt have to fear the mach punch that was rampant in bw2. I think both are good and if either drop to uu then id be happy.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

To begin, fairies are not dragon counters but rather a means to counter dragon spam. Outrage is a death sentence when utilized against the fairy as the Dragon must perform outrage until it becomes confused and will likely die to the fairy long before they become confused.

Ahem. I feel we're not communicating Properly. Second, Outrage dosent work like that. If you use Outrage on a Fairy it immediately ends it and allows you to switch moves. So say you use Outrage and your opponent predicts that and switches to their Fairy. Your Dragon can still switch since Outrage was interrupted. If it gets Interupted by something like a immunity, you can still switch moves. Same applies to Draco Meteor, you don't receive it's negative effect if blocked by a Fairy. Heck, It may have been more beneficial to Fairies if they only resisted Dragon, at least that would keep Dragons locked into Outrage. Second, as people have stated, you can't Outrage to Win anymore while their Fairy is alive. Just like in Gen V, get rid of the Steels and now the Fairies and go ahead and clean house, it's unlikely they'll be running more then one Fairy. Heck, Gengar seems to be the anti-Fairy with a Shadow Tag Mega Form.

 

[Patrick1088]

What do you guys think of reuniclus? Do you think assault vest will force it to drop to uu?

I thi k the other major drops will definitely be metagross due to steel nerf, novern and its mediocre sp attack (but great speed), and im hoping for hydreigon. It was one of my favorite pokes in gen v due to its coverage and flexibility.

 

[effyouzion]

Ahem. I feel we're not communicating Properly. Second, Outrage dosent work like that. If you use Outrage on a Fairy it immediately ends it and allows you to switch moves. So say you use Outrage and your opponent predicts that and switches to their Fairy. Your Dragon can still switch since Outrage was interrupted. If it gets Interupted by something like a immunity, you can still switch moves. Same applies to Draco Meteor, you don't receive it's negative effect if blocked by a Fairy. Heck, It may have been more beneficial to Fairies if they only resisted Dragon, at least that would keep Dragons locked into Outrage. Second, as people have stated, you can't Outrage to Win anymore while their Fairy is alive. Just like in Gen V, get rid of the Steels and now the Fairies and go ahead and clean house, it's unlikely they'll be running more then one Fairy. Heck, Gengar seems to be the anti-Fairy with a Shadow Tag Mega Form.

Actually I believe that if you KO something with the first turn of outrage, then a fairy comes in, you will continue to be locked into outrage for the 2nd (and possibly 3rd) turns and still become confused after that. It's only if the opponent predicts your outrage and switches in their fairy on the first turn (before outrage does any damage) are you allowed to switch moves without confusion.

This is what's really detrimental for dragon sweepers. You might be able to set up, but if outrage is your main move and the other team has a fairy, you're only gonna get one kill.

 

[Machi]

Actually I believe that if you KO something with the first turn of outrage, then a fairy comes in, you will continue to be locked into outrage for the 2nd (and possibly 3rd) turns and still become confused after that. It's only if the opponent predicts your outrage and switches in their fairy on the first turn (before outrage does any damage) are you allowed to switch moves without confusion.

This is what's really detrimental for dragon sweepers. You might be able to set up, but if outrage is your main move and the other team has a fairy, you're only gonna get one kill.

Yes it only works that way specifically for outrage other such moves are negated once an immunity switches in, I guess they really wanted to "balance" out dragon moves.

 

[effyouzion]

Yeah it's pretty shitty, and makes outrage a non viable choice unless you KNOW there's not gonna be a fairy on the other team. Better to just run dragon claw.

 

[CavemanCossy]

As for starmie it can run rapid spin, trickspecs, trick scarf (really good with all these megas), access to recover and natural cure gives it longevity in addition to its fantastic coverage. As for a pure offensive set i think it is outclassed by ninja for several reasons. Its pursuit weak, much slower, can be easily handked by aegislash.

I am positive that you can't trick or switcheroo Megastones. Trick and Switcheroo actually fail if the opposing Pokémon is holding a Mega stone, just like if you try tricking an item to Arceus holding a plate.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mega_Stone

 

[Hidious]

What do you guys think of reuniclus? Do you think assault vest will force it to drop to uu?

I thi k the other major drops will definitely be metagross due to steel nerf, novern and its mediocre sp attack (but great speed), and im hoping for hydreigon. It was one of my favorite pokes in gen v due to its coverage and flexibility.

Reuniclus I can see dropping to UU, but metagross and hydreigon are way too powerful to drop to UU, in my opinion. Hydreigon, especially. Just because Hydreigon actually has a few counters now, it doesn't mean it will drop to UU because of it. If you get togekiss, azumarill, or sylveon out of the way, hydreigon can still wreck havoc on most things.