Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[LordRandomness]

Been seeing posts about using Destiny Bond against Kangaskhan. I don't care how effective it is, it's not an ideal way to take it out (especially since you lose a pokemon too).

Yeah that's mostly me, and I disagree with this assessment. It's your opponent's Mega Evolution, giving up a "regular" Pokemon, especially when that Pokemon can be on any amount of HP when it does this, to take out your opponent's Mega seems like a win to me. Additionally the cost for inclusion is quite low (Gengar is already very good and it only uses up a single moveslot) and the opponent will often switch out instead or even misplay and let you Focus Blast it dead. Getting the KO with Bond is not essential to it doing its job.

 

[RockStarFish]

Volc speed ties and threatens Quiver Dance on a Sucker Punch, meaning keeping Megakang in is a risky proposition. Additionally, double-switching is completely reasonable. (Also technically Talonflame is a Flame Body user, but lol)

Anything not faster than Mega Kangaskhan gets hit with Return or Earthquake. Why would you use Sucker Punch against a Volcarona when Volcarona fails to OHKO with any attack and Return is a guaranteed OHKO? It's simple game theory.

You don't need to be able to actually KO with the outspeeding priority: If you go before Mega Kanga then the Sucker Punch fails, meaning you effectively dealt free damage. If Mega Kanga doesn't use Sucker Punch, you can use a regular move to outspeed and KO. The main point of the outspeeding priority isn't to KO Kanga directly, it's to make it so you have a way to nullify Sucker Punch at will that still chips away at it (Additionally several Mach Punch users DO threaten it with priority anyway). Although I'll admit to being surprised at how difficult it is to Mach Punch it dead, there are some additional Scarf options (Scarf Toxicroak, lol)

The only Pokémon who can effectively pull off the mind game you're describing are Infernape and Mega Lucario. Both are better off just going for Close Combat, because they both survive a +2 Sucker Punch.

 

[MagicMissingno]

Ranevski
DDP Gyrados didn't have a choice band without the drawback, a way around substitute users that are faster than it, 70 BP move that gives +2 attack, perfect coverage, or priority. It's not a valid comparison.

 

[Plasma.EXE]

Yeah that's mostly me, and I disagree with this assessment. It's your opponent's Mega Evolution, giving up a "regular" Pokemon, especially when that Pokemon can be on any amount of HP when it does this, to take out your opponent's Mega seems like a win to me. Additionally the cost for inclusion is quite low (Gengar is already very good and it only uses up a single moveslot) and the opponent will often switch out instead or even misplay and let you Focus Blast it dead. Getting the KO with Bond is not essential to it doing its job.

I see you're point. Gengar is like the only relevant OU destiny bond user (Prankster Bannette too maybe, but that's using up a mega slot), I can't think of anything else that could use it well.

Though I don't think it's a good argument to not banning Kangaskhan. I'll revise what I said, you could probably get the match in your favor if your Gengar has put a lot of work already taking out other threats, but you're still killing off a pokemon to take out Mega Kangaskhan. You can do the same to just about any other pokemon (well, maybe not any speed boost user).

 

[Ajwf]

Not sure if serious? I already articulated that due to its bulk, typing, etc, it could come in on a number of pokemon that it's not scared of. It would often DD for free (much like PuP) and then sweep or Taunt and DD again. Even if they had a very solid check to your Gyarados you could do stuff like not DD and Return instead to hit the Scarf-Starmie switching in, crippling it. Then swap out and next time you come in you can sweep from there. Please list these hard counters that didn't exist.

You realize that Gyarados would need to dragon dance 4 times to reach mega kan's power of one PuP? 4 times... There is no comparison.

 

[BanzaiMuskrat]

I am for a ban (even though she is fun to use) for all the reasons everyone else is saying. To throw in my two cents, I have been using Sableye as a "counter" to it which can work if you can predict a normal or fighting move. But a skilled player will see a Sableye and predict with a crunch or earthquake, often 2HKOing even after being burned on the second turn (also worth noting Sableye cannot take two scrappy returns if they decide not to mega-evolve even with second turn wil-o-wisp). Sableye is one of the few checks that is not specialized for only Mega-Kangaskhan and is sadly one of the best there is. But it still cannot reliably counter it. Just some of my thoughts on the matter. (I actually run both sableye and leftovers skarmory to have two basic checks since neither can take it alone all the time, especially with opposing team synergy)

 

[PenguinKnight]

I already answered this in my original post: you don't need to run stuff like Cofagrigus, your team isn't meant to have a counter for every pokemon in the game. Also predicting doesn't work like that, you speak as if the MegaKangaskhan pilot always gets it right and you always get it wrong. I gave two examples in my earlier post of common scenarios where you have a chance to play around MegaKangaskhan.



Not sure if serious? I already articulated that due to its bulk, typing, etc, it could come in on a number of pokemon that it's not scared of. It would often DD for free (much like PuP) and then sweep or Taunt and DD again. Even if they had a very solid check to your Gyarados you could do stuff like not DD and Return instead to hit the Scarf-Starmie switching in, crippling it. Then swap out and next time you come in you can sweep from there. Please list these hard counters that didn't exist.

You don't need to have a counter for every pokemon in the game....sure. You don't need to counter the strongest sweeper in the entire OU tier then? That would be like not having to prepare for DPP Heatran or have measures againt voltturn cores in BW. Sure, the khan pilot doesn't always get it right, but this leaves it down to luck. Not an ideal way to "deal with" a pokemon at all.

 

[Ranevski]

Ranevski
DDP Gyrados didn't have a choice band without the drawback, a way around substitute users that are faster than it, 70 BP move that gives +2 attack, perfect coverage, or priority. It's not a valid comparison.

So tired of these ridiculous analogies T_T (like why would Gyarados need to get around faster Sub users?? That's not it's Achilles heal). Gyarados didn't need those things because it had different strengths, strengths which made it play incredibly similar to how MegaKang does today. It comes in on tons of stuff that it doesn't fear, takes one turn to setup or punch a wall without any fear of the consequences, then goes to town. The way you beat DPP Gyarados was by making good reads and outplaying it, not by packing a silver bullet.

You don't need to have a counter for every pokemon in the game....sure. You don't need to counter the strongest sweeper in the entire OU tier then?

No, you don't. It's depressing how often I read sarcasm like this. You do not need to counter something to beat it.

No pokemon team in existence can counter everything, you win almost all your games on checks and predictions and figuring out what you need to keep healthy that match etc. You act like it's luck when it's what many call playing the game. Pokemon isn't meant to be decided at the team builder. Team building is an enormous part of the game but this thread (and frankly most posts since the XY release) clearly illustrates that many users haven't learnt how to properly play/predict/read.

You have always, and will always rely on checks and predicting right to beat a lot of the top OU threats, you simply can't counter them all.

 

[Mortrialus]

Similar to one of the reasons Blaziken was banned, Mega Kangaskhan is incredibly easy to set up. All it takes is one Power Up Punch and its ready to start sweeping. Honestly, its even easier to set up than Blaziken. As Blaziken needs to both set up Swords Dance and stall for turns to get some speed boosts.

Mega Kangaskhan can get past its okay speed with Sucker Punch, which tears apart offensive Pokemon. Nothing walls it effectively. +2 Mega Kangaskhan OHKO's or 2HKO's all of the most reliable physical walls in the game that I'm aware of. Most of its would be counters and checks are ineffective depending on the set. Skarmory and Ferrothorn are no good if its running Fire Punch. The same for Ghosts if its running Crunch. Mega Lucario and Terrakion can't safetly switch in because of Earthquake.

It's also very bulky for a sweeper, making it difficult to revenge kill.

There aren't any true counters to this thing. It's also incredibly centralizing. And since there aren't any true counters to the thing, you're starting to see really wacky stuff like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn (Who before Mega Kangaskahn was usually running Leftovers) and Rocky Helmet Rough Skin Garchomp. Both of which are losing strategies that focus on losing less than usual in the hope that Mega Kangaskhan doesn't sweep your entire team.

Mega Kangaskhan is very unhealthy for the meta game and is very deserving of a ban.

 

[AOPSUser]

So tired of these ridiculous analogies T_T (like why would it need to get around Sub users faster than it?? That's not it's Achilles heal). It didn't need those things because it had different strengths, strengths which made it play incredibly similar to how MegaKang does today. It comes in on tons of stuff that it doesn't fear, takes one turn to setup or punch a wall without any fear of the consequences, then goes to town. The way you beat DPP Gyarados was by making good reads and outplaying it, not by packing a silver bullet.

It was easier to outplay DPP Gyarados. Trace Porygon2, your own bulky Gyarados, etc. made its life very hard. With Mega Kangaskhan, even Landorus-T is OHKOed by Return at +1 after SR, and is KOed by PuP+Return without it. You literally have to use Sableye, Dusclops, Cofagrigus, or have fast Thunder Waves (or WoW Talonflame). Outside of WoW Talonflame and Sableye (which is quite on the brink), those "surefire checks" are all completely unviable in OU. Also they get fucked over by a miss or crit, which happens a lot thanks to WoW's accuracy and Parental Bond.

Sure you could try to do something like T-Wave+Reflect with Klefki, which is what I usually end up doing, but that's quite risky because Kangaskhan can either switch and come back later, or just kill Klefki with Earthquake.

TL;DR: There is no easy way to beat Kangaskhan, even if you pack Sableye, Dusclops, and WoW Talonflame

 

[Spiegelmann]

??? DPP Gyarados didn't need priority because it consistently had a dance or two and I don't know why you even think this matters. My post was articulating that DPP Gyarados was a very similar beast to MegaKangaskhan and it was never banned. The way you beat both of them is by making an all-round strong team that is good against the majority of OU and predicting well against them during the match. If we didn't ban DPP Gyarados why should we ban Megakangaskhan?

In before more replies about it having no counters and similar meaningless drivel

Mega kanga has a neutrally stronger stab, can run 4 attacks, can bypass focus sashes, and is similarly bulky to gyarados (especially without intimidate). Before you go screaming about intimidate mattering when talking about bulk, most things that gyarados would come in on to set up on would switch out anyway, so intimidate is often irrelevant. Gyarados is also weak to stealth rock.

Additionally, mega kangaskhan gets a +2 attack boost in one turn as opposed to +1 (don't even think of arguing about dragon dance's speed boost. you can't be that dense, can you?), after which return, priority sucker punch and its coverage move of choice will allow it to OHKO (or 2HKO with impunity) almost any typical OU poke. +1, and sometimes even +2 gyarados did not seal the game as easily as you make it out to have done so. I don't recall much from my DPP days but (and I'm not going to claim with absolute certainty on whether or not it should have been banned) vaporeon, swampert, donphan (with sturdy up) and skarmory were extremely common back then which all put a stop to gyarados sweeps.

What reliably stops kangaskhan? We know that pokemon are banned if they, under very common conditions, are reliably able to set up and kill a large majority of the opposing team without being able to be stopped (think blaziken). What reliably stops mega kangaskhan? choice scarf rotom's will-o-wisp? Sableye? Cofagrigus? Actually, assuming m-kang PuP'd the rotom on the switch, he can set up another PuP on the switch out of rotom and still wreak havoc on your team. Do I really need to go into Cofagrigus? Sableye is the only real counter to this thing that can be found on a good amount of teams. You're practically forced to run one of these three if you hope to deal with m-kang with minimal losses to your team. Talonflame (after some previous damage) is one of the very few checks to this thing.

You mentioned that it wasn't bad that Mega Kangaskhan incentivizes one to use infrequently used items, namely rocky helmet. This isn't what M-Kang is doing. M-Kang is forcing you to do this if you don't want to lose to it. Sure, rocky helmet isn't the worst item to use against any team, but it should not have to be considered to begin with merely because mega-kangaskhan exists. It's also only really worth justifying on garchomp and ferrothorn, and kanga often carries earthquake..

Is it impossible to win against mega kangaskhan? Not at all. In fact, I think I've won more games against it than I've lost to it in pokebank OU. Is it significantly harder to win against it than it is vs many other megas/ physical sweepers. In my experience and apparently that of others-- hell yes.

I mean is it really okay for a pokemon with a non-move-locking choice band that goes past sashes that can set up vs anything but ghosts (and sometimes even on them with the right prediction) to FURTHER increase its attack really okay? Jesus christ. Imagine if CB Azumarill could switch freely between its moves with a +2-4 boost and had the speed that kangaskhan does.

 

[DaiGuren]

So tired of these ridiculous analogies T_T (like why would it need to get around Sub users faster than it?? That's not it's Achilles heal). It didn't need those things because it had different strengths, strengths which made it play incredibly similar to how MegaKang does today. It comes in on tons of stuff that it doesn't fear, takes one turn to setup or punch a wall without any fear of the consequences, then goes to town. The way you beat DPP Gyarados was by making good reads and outplaying it, not by packing a silver bullet.



No, you don't. I don't know if it's more sad or funny how often I read this. You do not need to counter something to beat it. No pokemon team in existence can counter everything, you win almost all your games on checks and predictions and figuring out what you need to keep healthy that match etc.

I didn't play competitvely back then, but I think I get your point. However, imo Gyarados has more exploitable weaknesses than MegaKhan, so "making good reads" and "outplaying" MegaKhan will, at best, result in you being even with your opponent, when outplaying someone usually means gaining the upper hand in a match.

Unless you have foolproof ways of "outplaying" MegaKhan, in which case would you mind sharing it to us?

 

[MagicMissingno]

So tired of these ridiculous analogies T_T (like why would it need to get around Sub users faster than it?? That's not it's Achilles heal). It didn't need those things because it had different strengths, strengths which made it play incredibly similar to how MegaKang does today. It comes in on tons of stuff that it doesn't fear, takes one turn to setup or punch a wall without any fear of the consequences, then goes to town. The way you beat DPP Gyarados was by making good reads and outplaying it, not by packing a silver bullet.

Mega Kangaskan has 766 attack after one turn of setup plus parental bond. Garados has 575 after one turn of setup. Not even the best walls in UBERS can stand up to it without it draining their HP faster than you can say *pichuuuuun*. Playing around it most likey means that you burn it and endure the hits leaving your team wrecked or down a few mons. Need I remind you that this is 6 vs 6 here so either Kang's coming in on a weakened team, or is leaving a wrecked team for 5 other Pokemon to clean up.

 

[RockStarFish]

So tired of these ridiculous analogies T_T

Then stop making them. You're the one who said it plays like DPP Tauntridos when it's blatantly clear that's not the case.

It didn't need those things because it had different strengths, strengths which made it play incredibly similar to how MegaKang does today. It comes in on tons of stuff that it doesn't fear, takes one turn to setup or punch a wall without any fear of the consequences, then goes to town.

Just like every single setup sweeper there is.

No, you don't. I don't know if it's more sad or funny how often I read this. You do not need to counter something to beat it. No pokemon team in existence can counter everything, you win almost all your games on checks and predictions and figuring out what you need to keep healthy that match etc.

Definitely agreeing with this. That last part (figuring out what you need to keep healthy that match) is what separates 1800s from 2000s.

 

[Ajwf]

Mega Kangaskan has 766 attack after one turn of setup plus parental bond. Garados has 575 after one turn of setup. Not even the best walls in UBERS can stand up to it without it draining their HP faster than you can say pichuuuuun. Playing around it most likey means that you burn it and endure the hits leaving your team wrecked or down a few mons. Need I remind you that this is 6 vs 6 here so either Kang's coming in on a weakened team, or is leaving a wrecked team for 5 other Pokemon to clean up.

Unfortunately this is wrong.

1396 is Mega kan's +2 attack.

Is Kan's attack after one turn of PuP. This is due to the way a choice band boosts a boost. I'm not strong enough in this to explain it, but understand that you're actually dealing with a +4 Kan after one boost, not a +3.

 

[mrglass]

since when has sucker punch been such a make it or break it move in tiering? it's easy to predict, has only 7PP, and is basically free setup if you have any pink matter abover the neckline. if she sucker punches with no PuP investment it's probably not going to even dent most things since it doesn't get stab anyways. maybe having such high damaging mons around, not just kangy, will force people not to just run in blindly swinging. there's such thing as a red card, there's such things as a skarmory, there's such things as light clay dual screen. yes she's really good, really, really good as a matter of fact, but to ban her to make it easier for yourself is just silly willy. I run fairy mono in the current OU and I have never never ONCE been swept by a m-kanga. with a fairy mono team. either I'm doing something really well or everyone here at smogon must be doing something really wrong.

Since it does an effective 120 BP of damage and breaks subs and sashes. And if the Mega Kanga user predicts the Sucker Punch prediction, it can hit with another insanely powerful attack, or set up again with PuP.

 

[LordRandomness]

I see you're point. Gengar is like the only relevant OU destiny bond user (Prankster Bannette too maybe, but that's using up a mega slot), I can't think of anything else that could use it well.

Though I don't think it's a good argument to not banning Kangaskhan. I'll revise what I said, you could probably get the match in your favor if your Gengar has put a lot of work already taking out other threats, but you're still killing off a pokemon to take out Mega Kangaskhan. You can do the same to just about any other pokemon.

Well, I'm not necessarily providing an argument for not banning Mega Kanga, I'm just trying to think of/suggest alternatives for use against it since there's a lot of "OMG NOTHING BEATS IT BUT GIMMICKS" rhetoric flying around. Froslass ended up in BL at some point I think, but I don't think it has anything solid to threaten Mega Kanga with (Brick Break? Lol). I agree that only adds one thing to the list of reliable checks, but it's not the only thing I've suggested.

Anything not faster than Mega Kangaskhan gets hit with Return or Earthquake. Why would you use Sucker Punch against a Volcarona when Volcarona fails to OHKO with any attack and Return is a guaranteed OHKO? It's simple game theory.

Well, assuming Volcarona was switched in on PuP you're risking another 50% Burn by attacking again (30% if one hit of Return is enough to OHKO; is it?). Plus if you (lol) give it a Rocky Helmet things just get even worse (no I'm not serious about that). Also, if Return is the safe move of choice then a Ghost-type like the aforementioned Gengar can be brought in for free. Sure they can predict and go for the Crunch, but then you could choose to stay in and oh look prediction fun. Additionally if the first Return causes Mega Kanga to become burned that reduces the damage of the second hit I believe (and I am actually sorta serious about Kee Berry, I feel like it could shore up Volc's otherwise poor physical bulk and let it come in on several other Pokemon to Quiver Dance as well). Finally, even if all that fails Volc's attack is going to deal very significant damage, maybe not enough to KO but definitely enough to put a dent in the thing. Obviously this is suboptimal, but it's just risk assessment: There's an XX% chance bringing in Volcarona to take PuP and then either attacking or switching to something appropriate (Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn, lol) will handle Mega Kanga reasonably well, a YY% chance that it'll just weaken it a fair bit, and a ZZ% chance it'll fail completely (low: 3~4 Flame Body procs have to fail and you have to lose the speed tie or mispredict or something).

The only Pokémon who can effectively pull off the mind game you're describing are Infernape and Mega Lucario. Both are better off just going for Close Combat, because they both survive a +2 Sucker Punch.

Well technically you could switch Justified Arcanine into a Crunch, which isn't as stupid as it seems since Crunch is most of what hits the common Ghost switch-ins. Staraptor can also do it on a speed tie, but I don't think Staraptor is anywhere near OU quality. Archeops, provided it has no prior damage, can do it, but Quick Attack is a pretty crummy priority move. I'll admit to being surprised that Infernape can take a +2 Sucker Punch though, even resisted. Don't think anything else works, unless we go to Scarfed priority mons which can 2HKO and might have a Sucker Punch aimed at them first (...medicham?)

 

[AOPSUser]

Unfortunately this is wrong.

1396 is Mega kan's +2 attack.

Is Kan's attack after one turn of PuP. This is due to the way a choice band boosts a boost. I'm not strong enough in this to explain it, but understand that you're actually dealing with a +4 Kan after one boost, not a +3.

It's actual stat is 766. The boost is to the DAMAGE, not the stat itself. This creates ~1% difference when it comes to the actual damage calculation, which isn't much of a difference, but it certainly doesn't have 1396 Attack.

You have always, and will always rely on checks and predicting right to beat a lot of the top OU threats, you simply can't counter them all.

Of course you can't counter them all. The only reliable CHECKS to Mega Kangaskhan are either completely unviable (Cofagrigus, Dusclops) or borderline (Sableye, Rocky Helmet Skarmory, etc.). Not to mention the fact that that check will either die or be weakened beyond repair even if it does take down Kangaskhan.

If you don't have a check, have fun playing around it. Even correct predictions will usually end up with Mega Kangaskhan killing/weakening your Pokemon.

 

[Ranevski]

Not even gonna dignify most of these 2013's with replies. You guys clearly didn't play DPP and don't understand that it's asinine to simply compare BST's, it was a different metagame. The reality is that despite all the numeric differences the two play very similarly.

It was easier to outplay DPP Gyarados. Trace Porygon2, your own bulky Gyarados, etc. made its life very hard. With Mega Kangaskhan, even Landorus-T is OHKOed by Return at +1 after SR, and is KOed by PuP+Return without it. You literally have to use Sableye, Dusclops, Cofagrigus, or have fast Thunder Waves (or WoW Talonflame). Outside of WoW Talonflame and Sableye (which is quite on the brink), those "surefire checks" are all completely unviable in OU. Also they get fucked over by a miss or crit, which happens a lot thanks to WoW's accuracy and Parental Bond.

Sure you could try to do something like T-Wave+Reflect with Klefki, which is what I usually end up doing, but that's quite risky because Kangaskhan can either switch and come back later, or just kill Klefki with Earthquake.

TL;DR: There is no easy way to beat Kangaskhan, even if you pack Sableye, Dusclops, and WoW Talonflame

My point was never that it's easy to beat MegaKang. I'm saying that the way you beat MegaKang is the same way you beat DPP Gyarados. You didn't pack a silver bullet because it didn't exist, or wasn't feasible to cripple your team just for it. You made a good team and predicted well to try and win the match while your opponent did the same. Now, if you believe that it was vastly easier to outplay DPP Gy then you have an argument. I personally think that they are about as difficult to play around as eachother and operate very similarly.

Again my point was not that you "just predict and beat MegaKang". I'm saying that it's about as hard/possible to outpredict Megakang and defeat it is as it was to beat DPP Gy, and we didn't ban DPP Gy.

 

[KaminaSan]

I already see it. Might as well get the Ban Threads ready for Mega Lucario, and Mega Mawile too. This is getting nuts.

 

[RockStarFish]

Of course you can't counter them all. The only reliable CHECKS to Mega Kangaskhan are either completely unviable (Cofagrigus, Dusclops) or borderline (Sableye, Rocky Helmet Skarmory, etc.). Not to mention the fact that that check will either die or be weakened beyond repair even if it does take down Kangaskhan.

If you don't have a check, have fun playing around it. Even correct predictions will usually end up with Mega Kangaskhan killing/weakening your Pokemon.

Actually, every Fighting-type faster than Mega Kangaskhan is a reliable check.

CB Technician Breloom, Terrakion, Infernape, Mienshao, Mega Lucario, Scarf Primeape, Scarf Lucario, Scarf Heracross all survive a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO with their primary STAB. All were reasonably popular in OU/UU last generation.

Hell, you can sac Talonflame for a Tailwind and bring in a Machamp to OHKO with DynamicPunch if that's your style.

 

[Ajwf]

Not even gonna dignify most of these 2013's with replies. You guys clearly didn't play DPP and don't understand that it's asinine to simply compare BST's, it was a different metagame. The reality is that despite all the numeric differences the two play very similarly.




My point was never that it's easy to beat MegaKang. I'm saying that the way you beat MegaKang is the same way you beat DPP Gyarados. You didn't pack a silver bullet because it didn't exist, or wasn't feasible to cripple your team just for it. You made a good team and predicted well to try and win the match while your opponent did the same. Now, if you believe that it was vastly easier to outplay DPP Gy then you have an argument. I personally think that they are about as difficult to play around as eachother and operate very similarly.

Again my point was not that you "just predict and beat MegaKang". I'm saying that it's about as hard/possible to outpredict Megakang and defeat it is as it was to beat DPP Gy, and we didn't ban DPP Gy.

Then Keep DPP out of this as it is clearly irrelevant. That ego of yours is not part of banning Kan so try to pity us poor creatures of the current meta and join the crowd.

You have yet to prove how it is 'easy' to beat megakan, but keep making comparrisons to Gyara in DPP who, btw, we've already discounted as weaker. From what I remember, DPP was the first metagame with any stability but it was still relatively chaotic compared to the recent ones. The different dynamic and different ideologies means that the idea that these two correlate is completely untrue. The only way to compare kan is to compare it to the here and now and being unable to do so will just result in your posts being filled with irrelevant discussion.

 

[Thorhammer]

Actually, every Fighting-type faster than Mega Kangaskhan is a reliable check.

CB Technician Breloom, Terrakion, Infernape, Mienshao, Mega Lucario, Scarf Primeape, Scarf Lucario, Scarf Heracross all survive a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO with their primary STAB. All were reasonably popular in OU/UU last generation.

Hell, you can sac Talonflame for a Tailwind and bring in a Machamp to OHKO with DynamicPunch if that's your style.

Every faster Fighting-type tank can beat Kangaskhan one-on-one. They can't switch in if they're risking getting annihilated by Return.

 

[AOPSUser]

Not even gonna dignify most of these 2013's with replies. You guys clearly didn't play DPP and don't understand that it's asinine to simply compare BST's, it was a different metagame. The reality is that despite all the numeric differences the two play very similarly.




My point was never that it's easy to beat MegaKang. I'm saying that the way you beat MegaKang is the same way you beat DPP Gyarados. You didn't pack a silver bullet because it didn't exist, or wasn't feasible to cripple your team just for it. You made a good team and predicted well to try and win the match while your opponent did the same. Now, if you believe that it was vastly easier to outplay DPP Gy then you have an argument. I personally think that they are about as difficult to play around as eachother and operate very similarly.

Again my point was not that you "just predict and beat MegaKang". I'm saying that it's about as hard/possible to outpredict Megakang and defeat it is as it was to beat DPP Gy, and we didn't ban DPP Gy.

DPP Gyarados had a lot more checks. Porygon2, Stone Edge Gyarados, Vaporeon, Milotic, heck even Scarf Electivire if you can predict well against it. With Mega Kangaskhan, the only things switching in without taking asinine amounts of damage are Dusclops, Cofagrigus, and Sableye. If you can predict well Will-O-Wisp Talonflame can come in on the PuP, but it doesn't have to PuP turn one, whereas Gyarados just wasn't too threatening before the Dragon Dance, since it was outsped and walled until it was able to DD.

Actually, every Fighting-type faster than Mega Kangaskhan is a reliable check.

CB Technician Breloom, Terrakion, Infernape, Mienshao, Mega Lucario, Scarf Primeape, Scarf Lucario, Scarf Heracross all survive a +2 Sucker Punch and OHKO with their primary STAB. All were reasonably popular in OU/UU last generation.

Hell, you can sac Talonflame for a Tailwind and bring in a Machamp to OHKO with DynamicPunch if that's your style.

CB Breloom does ~70-85% with Mach Punch. You need prior damage for that.

Lucario needs to be Mega Evolved.

All of those Fighting types will be crippled beyond repair if they try to switch in, and Terrakion and Lucario are flat out KOed by PuP->Sucker Punch.

Also the problem with using them is they are only good once, and if Kangaskhan switches out like a smart player would let it, they may not get another chance at him.

Also since when was Primeape popular in UU lol.

 

[RoboZygo]

Nobody can switch in on this thing reliably. The only way to deal with Mega Kanga is to revenge kill it, and that's it.