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Then Keep DPP out of this as it is clearly irrelevant. That ego of yours is not part of banning Kan so try to pity us poor creatures of the current meta and join the crowd.
You have yet to prove how it is 'easy' to beat megakan, but keep making comparrisons to Gyara in DPP who, btw, we've already discounted as weaker. From what I remember, DPP was the first metagame with any stability but it was still relatively chaotic compared to the recent ones. The different dynamic and different ideologies means that the idea that these two correlate is completely untrue. The only way to compare kan is to compare it to the here and now and being unable to do so will just result in your posts being filled with irrelevant discussion.
I'd like to additionally point out http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogons-5th-generation-course-of-action.81775/ this, indicating that Smogon's direction on defining metagames has evolved since DPP. It's entirely possible that if we were deciding on Gyarados in DPP now, it WOULD be banned due to differing standards. I don't know whether it would be or anything about the logicalities of this, but I do know that community perceptions, standards, and rules evolve with time and fine then isn't necessarily fine now.
EDIT: Also regarding some of the above posts, Fighting-types can switch in on Crunch and EQ and Ghost-types can switch in on pretty much everything else (some of them can even switch in on EQ).
Not even gonna dignify most of these 2013's with replies. You guys clearly didn't play DPP and don't understand that it's asinine to simply compare BST's, it was a different metagame.
Whatever. But if your argument is "the two mons played similarly", that doesn't mean they have the same degree of power, right?
Consider Blaziken and Scolipede. Both have Speed Boosts, both can come in, set-up once and try to sweep and snowball from there. They both play similarly, correct? Why is Scolipede not as threatening as Blaziken, then? That's right, because they don't have the same degree of power. Blaziken's STAB combination is devastating while Scolipede's is at best, mediocre.
By that token, your argument is flawed because similarity in playstyle does not mean similarity in power.
At first I was going to say to possibly keep it as a Suspect.
Then I remembered a really horrifying combo.
The main problem with Mega Kangaskhan is that, kind of like Mega Gengar, it potentially limits the viable Pokemon and items that you can carry. With Skarmory your best item is definitely Rocky Helmet. The issue with that? Well, you better pray there isn't a Magnezone on the team nor a Pokemon that will bait Skarmory out. And if its your sole Stealth Rock user you're likely in deep shit. Some people's response to the Ghost-types is through the use of Substitute + Will-O-Wisp (mostly to block Sucker Punch); however, some Kangaskhans are catching on and using Crunch. Even without Power-up Punch this thing hits like a truck. The Power-up Punch accessibility just makes it even worse.
I want to note that, to be fair, Mega Kangaskhan does have checks but a lot of them are really lower in the ladder usage at the moment. Terrakion, Keldeo are two good examples of checks. Terrakion is a huge one because it can possibly get +2 Attack thanks to Justified. Cobaloin is also a decent check to Mega-Kangaskhan since it only fears PuP (and Earthquake) and has decent Defense to back it up. We mentioned Skarmory, but Ferrothorn and Garchomp with Rocky Helmets also work thanks to their abilities. Ghost-types can also slap Will-O-Wisp in their repertoire and, provided they aren't weak to Earthquake, can at least make fun of Mega Kangaskhan.
With that said, checks existed for threats like Garchomp / Salamence of days of old and it still didn't prevent them from eventually being banned. While I really would love to have Kangaskhan as an OU mon, the sheer brutal power it provides is just way too much for OU. So unless we're suddenly bringing down Giratina...
...Quickban this shit so I don't have to constantly tell myself "welp better pack Skarmory / Gengar in my team just to make sure!"
Also the problem with using them is they are only good once, and if Kangaskhan switches out like a smart player would let it, they may not get another chance at him.
Well if we're going on the premise that players are smart, why not just predict the switch and bring in a Dark-type to Pursuit trap the Ghost-type they send in to absorb the Fighting attack that would've OHKOed Mega Kangaskhan?
I think I'll move my opinion over to "wait for suspect testing", personally. My feeling is that it's likely to end up banned after due process, but that due process is still important. Quickbans are for when the destabilizing effect is MORE important than due process, and I'm not sure if that line has been crossed with Mega Kanga.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 324-384 (92 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Yeah, that's a slight problem, I'll admit.
No shit. That's why they're checks. Checks don't switch in. Counters switch in. I'm talking about checks.
Well if we're going on the premise that players are smart, why not just predict the switch and bring in a Dark-type to Pursuit trap the Ghost-type they send in to absorb the Fighting attack that would've OHKOed Mega Kangaskhan?
The Breloom: Someone posted a calc earlier showing some common Breloom Mach Punch doesn't OHKO. Probably LO.
The Fighting-types are revenge killers, and nothing prevents you from swapping to your <insert Fighting counter here>. Also if that Fighting counter is Aegislash or a Flying-type, good luck Pursuit-trapping it. By switching around, the Mega Kangaskhan user can weaken down the foe's team one-by-one. The fact that they need to revenge kill means that something else has already died first, and all Mega Kangaskhan has to do is switch to its Fighting counter.
The Mega Kangaskhan can safely swap out because all he loses is a little momentum if outpredicted, whereas if the Fighting-type swaps out to Tyranitar predicting the Gengar switch and Mega Kangaskhan stays in, you are put in a REALLY bad position, so the prediction game is quite tight against Mega Kangaskhan.
I think I'll move my opinion over to "wait for suspect testing", personally. My feeling is that it's likely to end up banned after due process, but that due process is still important. Quickbans are for when the destabilizing effect is MORE important than due process, and I'm not sure if that line has been crossed with Mega Kanga.
I'm confident it has. The sooner I don't have to think "Does this wonderfully balanced team get swept by Megakhan because I don't have Sableye with me?" the better. If it were banned a week ago it would've been too late.
DPP Gyarados had a lot more checks. Porygon2, Stone Edge Gyarados, Vaporeon, Milotic, heck even Scarf Electivire if you can predict well against it. With Mega Kangaskhan, the only things switching in without taking asinine amounts of damage are Dusclops, Cofagrigus, and Sableye. If you can predict well Will-O-Wisp Talonflame can come in on the PuP, but it doesn't have to PuP turn one, whereas Gyarados just wasn't too threatening before the Dragon Dance, since it was outsped and walled until it was able to DD.
Being a check doesn't mean that it can swap in with impunity and threaten, there are way more soft checks to MegaKangaskhan than what you list.
I went over this in my original post. You can swap Gengar into PuP/Return. If they predict the Gengar coming in and Crunch you can swap in Terrakion instead. If they went for a Scrappy PuP you could have just stayed in and attacked with whatever you had in, possibly killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that your revenge killer can finish it off. I'm not pretending like it's easy mode to win these predictions. I just tire of reading all these posts (not yours) that pretend there are no options in the match itself. This is how we handled DPP Gy and how pokemon has always been played because you don't have counters for every huge threat in OU. I have gotten Terrakion in on my fair share of Crunches (and I've obviously been outplayed plenty too) and there's more scenarios like this.
Also I feel you're underselling DPP Gy. He almost always got to mindlessly DD for free just like PuP, unless they had something like PoryGon2 in which case he hit Return or did a double switch into something that can set up on Vaporeon or whatever. More importantly a lot of the time your opponents simply didn't have stuff like Milotic, Electivire, etc because as I said, in DPP people didn't bother trying to counter Gyarados. You just built a solid team with a great toolbox and did your best to beat him with predictions.
I'm confident it has. The sooner I don't have to think "Does this wonderfully balanced team get swept by Megakhan because I don't have Sableye with me?" the better. If it were banned a week ago it would've been too late.
But I mean this is still the case for other top-tier threats, too. Having to ensure a specific Pokemon can't sweep you is nothing new, and Sableye isn't the only way to protect your team (as I've mentioned a few times, a well played Gengar can keep it off your back just fine, and there are some options that are better against it than others without devoting that entire teamslot to dealing with it).
The Mega Kangaskhan can safely swap out because all he loses is a little momentum if outpredicted, whereas if the Fighting-type swaps out to Tyranitar predicting the Gengar switch and Mega Kangaskhan stays in, you are put in a REALLY bad position, so the prediction game is quite tight against Mega Kangaskhan.
Of course. But my point is that between people of equal competence whoever reads the situation and predicts the opponent better wins. The lowest risk option is to simply use the Fighting attack, because the benefit of beating Mega Kangaskhan outweighs giving your opponent a free switch-in.
Unless, say, the opponent brings in an Intimidate DDMence on your Fighting move, in which case you're supremely fucked.
Being a check doesn't mean that it can swap in with impunity and threaten, there are way more soft checks to MegaKangaskhan than what you list.
I went over this in my original post. You can swap Gengar into PuP/Return. If they predict the Gengar coming in and Crunch you can swap in Terrakion instead. If they went for a Scrappy PuP you could have just stayed in and attacked with whatever you had in, possibly killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that your revenge killer can finish it off. I'm not pretending like it's easy mode to win these predictions. I just tire of reading all these posts (not yours) that pretend there are no options in the match itself. This is how we handled DPP Gy and how pokemon has always been to be played because you don't have counters for every huge threat in OU. I have gotten Terrakion in on my fair share of Crunches (and I've obviously been outplayed plenty too) and there's plenty more scenarios like this.
Also I feel you're underselling DPP Gy. He almost always got to mindlessly DD for free just like PuP, unless they had something like PoryGon2 in which case he hit Return or did a double switch int something that can set up on Vaporeon or whatever. More importantly a lot of the time your opponents simply didn't have stuff like Milotic, Electivire, etc because as I said, in DPP people didn't bother trying to counter Gyarados. You just built a solid team with a great toolbox and did your best to beat him with predictions.
DPP Gyarados did not force you to sac a mon to it to beat it. There were stuff that could take hits and force it out even at +1, like Porygon2 or Vaporeon. Kangaskhan, meanwhile, boosts its Attack twice in one turn with a move that can't be stopped unless you have a Ghost-type, and even then it can still get +1 or Crunch. If you swap in Terrakion into a Mega Kangaskhan going for Crunch, Terrakion is still taking damage, and it's still beaten by Aegislash/Landorus-T/Gliscor when that inevitably switches in. Even Sableye and Cofagrigus will die in order to cripple Mega Kangaskhan, and Mega Kangaskhan can always just switch out.
Of course. But my point is that between people of equal competence whoever reads the situation and predicts the opponent better wins. The lowest risk option is to simply use the Fighting attack, because the benefit of beating Mega Kangaskhan outweighs giving your opponent a free switch-in.
Unless, say, the opponent brings in an Intimidate DDMence on your Fighting move, in which case you're supremely fucked.
Exactly. It's a risk vs. reward. The Terrakion will almost always have to use Close Combat simply because if it doesn't it risks getting ripped apart by Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan will almost always switch out, but if it stays in, in the worst case scenario, it dies to severely weaken the opposing Terrakion and make it unfit for anything but fodder.
The point is, if you want to play around Mega Kangaskhan, you will most likely have to lose at least a mon to beat it, unless you are able to read your opponent's mind or something.
I think I'll move my opinion over to "wait for suspect testing", personally. My feeling is that it's likely to end up banned after due process, but that due process is still important. Quickbans are for when the destabilizing effect is MORE important than due process, and I'm not sure if that line has been crossed with Mega Kanga.
Due process is nice, but I'm not sure how much more we can give Kangaskhan. Unlike with Mega Gengar, all eyes have been on it pretty much since XY started. It's been explored quite well.
Damn this thread got shitted up fast... It's amazing how like three users who post every other time can singlehandedly destroy a nice conversation. Pretty much everything has been said, although something I use to combat it which no one has mentioned is Either prankster thundurus twave, followed by mega heracross, who gives no fucks about the plus 2 sucker punch, or sub landorus, as they always sucker punch, and focus blast ohkoes. As you can see, my teams are equipped reasonably well, yet, for the thundurus strategy per say, I sac a mon to bring in thundurus, let thundurus die, and then take massive damAge on my next pokemon. That's bullshit, yet I feel like I have come out ahead because at least it's gone.
The problem was kangashkan isn't the lack of viable counters. The problem is the lack of viable checks. The only way to revenge kill it is to either have keldeo with a life orb or specs, terrakion, or basically any fast fighting type, although if they are under 50 (or less for things like infernape), gg. It's sucker punch destroys almost everything else fAster, and now even steels like genesect can't even hit it bar espeed. This is what separates it from something like lucario, which has similar counters. While lucario may get banned for having no true counters, it has many more checks. .scarf Genesect checks any set without vacuum wave, and can live that if healthy. Talonflame checks any set without espeed, and so on. However, none of this shit works for kanga, because is too damn bulky and has one weakness, so there is like a 5 mon list of checks. And btw if you say rocky helmet checks it, that is undeniable proof that it has broken the metagame.
Oh shit almost forgot to mention the other fdifference, how easy it is to set up. Lucario sets up on almost nothing, and will likely get the chance once at best. Kanga can setup on almost everything that isn't ridiculously powerful or a fighting type, which makes it literally brainless to setup. Also, it can ko weakened things with its powerup punch.
Due process is nice, but I'm not sure how much more we can give Kangaskhan. Unlike with Mega Gengar, all eyes have been on it pretty much since XY started. It's been explored quite well.
How far away is suspect testing, anyway? I could see this being the case if it'll be around too long, although I'd like to see it suspect tested whether it's quickbanned or not. I still think there are teambuilding options that haven't been explored though.
Exactly. It's a risk vs. reward. The Terrakion will almost always have to use Close Combat simply because if it doesn't it risks getting ripped apart by Kangaskhan. Kangaskhan will almost always switch out, but if it stays in, in the worst case scenario, it dies to severely weaken the opposing Terrakion and make it unfit for anything but fodder.
Against Terrakion, Mega Kangaskhan would have to swap out. Either it swaps out, gets OHKOed for nothing, or Sucker Punch gives Terrakion two Justified boosts.
Against Terrakion, Mega Kangaskhan would have to swap out. Either it swaps out, gets OHKOed for nothing, or Sucker Punch gives Terrakion two Justified boosts.
But Terrakion has to use Close Combat as well, since it will die if Kanga stays in and EQs or PuPs, so you get the pretty safe switch into your Fighting counter.
So basically, Terrakion comes in as something dies, Mega Kanga switches out, Close Combat bounces off an Aegislash, Terrakion is forced back out, rinse and repeat. Of course you can try to be a pro and predict but that's REALLY risky for both sides.
I just want everyone to know that Hacylon and Gary are some of the sexiest smogonites ever have made very respectable, very well-reasoned and well thought-out posts that every Pro-Ban opponent should make sure to not only read but also directly respond to, as the points presented by those posts make for the most convincing Pro-Ban arguments I think the thread has to offer at this point in time.
That said, if it isn't obvious, I also agree with them. I don't want to just outright re-iterate points that have been already made, rather, I want to approach it from a slightly different angle. I really hope I don't end up writing an essay because I definitely have homework I should be doing. Is there any particular reason metagame analysis isn't a paid job, yet? Why hasn't Nintendo hired people to start doing this?
Whatever.
Mega Kangaskhan at a Glance
When evaluating Mega Kangaskhan, several characteristics stand out, most notably: it's bulk, it's attack stat, it's movepool, and finally, it's ability.
105/80/80 -> 105/100/100 Defenses.
Mega Kangaskhan's bulk was already adequate before Mega Evolving, and is superior to the Pixie's (Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy) 100/100/100, albeit, only by 5, after Mega Evolving. How many Pokemon in OU, do you think, are capable of boasting Mega Kangaskhan's power and bulk? Pokemon like Salamence and Dragonite, who both have abilities that make them relatively bulky (Intimidate, Multiscale, respectively), are inhibited by hazards and plagued by terrible weaknesses to numerous powerful and common attacking types, namely Ice, Rock, and Dragon, and the variety of moves within those types allow Pokemon to hit either of the Dragons on their weaker defensive stat. This means that the player(s) in question are required to build teams carefully to maximize the potential for sweeping, as Pokemon like Gliscor, Latios, Mega Aggron, Mamoswine, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Metagross - whoever - need to be removed before they can try. This dependence on the elimination of common threats greatly impacts the teambuilding process and requires that the Dragonite/Mence player carefully maneuver themselves around the opponent's team as failure to remove said threats puts any attempt to sweep to a full stop. Obviously I'm generalizing here, as there are many, many other factors to consider if you really, really want to dive into the specifics of it all, but I know that you know that I know that ain't nobody got time for that.
Mega Kangaskhan, by contrast, has few faults. She may take damage from all forms of entry hazards, but she isn't weak to Stealth Rock. In addition to that, her pure Normal-typing gives her an immunity to the best offensive type in the game right now: Ghost, and only one weakness in Fighting, a type that is losing popularity thanks to the introduction of Fairy type, which has made Pokemon like Togekiss, Clefable, Azumarill and Sylveon very popular. If that wasn't good enough, the Steel type nerf gives Normal/Dark fantastic neutral coverage, which actually brings us to our next point;
95/90 -> 125/100 Offenses.
Mega Kangaskhan's offenses weren't even UU worthy before Mega Evolving. Mega Kangaskhan's 125 base Attack Stat wouldn't even be worth a damn if not for Parental Bond, as the introduction of base 140 Attack Stats as the norm has pretty much desensitized anyone to that kind of number for prominent offensive threats. So, I won't talk about what her Attack Stat does for her until we get to her Ability.
Instead, I'll focus on what her Speed Stat does for her. Base 100 is none-too impressive when it comes to outrunning common meta threats, as it sits below the standard 102-110 we've become accustomed to. However, her relatively high base Speed does give her a fast priority move. To put it into context, Mega Mawile has to run a significant Speed investment in order to guarantee it out-guns Pokemon like Azumarill and minimum Speed Scizor, who would smack the fuck out of it otherwise. Mega Kangaskhan, however, outruns nearly ever priority user worth a damn sans Mega Lucario, and for the one's she doesn't, or for those who resist Sucker Punch, they certainly aren't going to deal enough damage with Mach Punch or Ice Shard to kill her, so they lose to Return/coverage move, anyways.
Not that all of that is too important, though. Comparing Mega Kangaskhan to Mega Mawile again, the true benefit of base 100 Speed is the ability to outrun popular defenders like Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Gliscor.
Realistically, Mega Kangaskhan would probably still be a huge ass issue with her original, base 90 Speed and Parental Bond, as she is just too fast to have this kind of power. Mega Mawile has nearly everything Mega Kangaskhan has - a fantastic offensive movepool, an acceptable Attack stat made ridiculously powerful by an amazing ability, a way to boost said Attack stat, and for all intents and purpose, good typing that nets it good neutral coverage and complements its bulk. Where Mega Mawile falters, though, is the fact that it is slow as fuck and has weaknesses exploited by common defenders like Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Gliscor, a mediocre base form, and the fact that it loses Intimidate upon Mega Evolving, which makes 50/125/95 really not all that great, at least for someone with base 50 speed.
Mega Mawile is held back because it does not have everything. Mega Kangaskhan has everything.
Power-Up Punch, Return/Frustration, Sucker Punch, Crunch, Earthquake, Fire Punch.
Everyone knows what the common Mega Kangaskhan moveset looks like - Power-Up Punch / Return / Sucker Punch / threat removal. Unlike most other Pokemon, though, Mega Kangaskhan has the bulk, power, speed, and movepool to cherrypick its counters. You have Ferrothorn / Skarmory covered? Fantastic - run Crunch for Trevenant, Gourgiest, and Dusclops. Oh, wait, you say that your team is already able to remove the Ghost Types that would normally inhibit your ability to sweep? Nevermind, then - run Fire Punch or Earthquake, the first of which conveniently covers the most common Ghost-Types roaming OU, anyways!
You get the idea, right?
Unless you're running Sabelye or Cofagrigus, when playing against Mega Kangaskhan, you're literally praying that you chosen checks and counters that aren't ruined by the coverage attack you think is going to be the most common one you'll run into. Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn and Rocky Helmet Garchomp make great checks, sure, but they're also destroyed by a +2 Earthquake, which makes them unreliable. I guess that is why they are called checks, though.
Early Bird / Scrappy -> Parental Bond.
This is why Mama is such a bitch to deal with. To put it in perspective, when using Return, Parental Bond might as well be Adaptability. Alternatively, you could view it as a permanent, additional STAB bonus to whatever attack she happens to be using at the time. The most common (and effective) comparison, though, is that Parental Bond acts as a Choice Band that gives you the freedom to choose your move every turn. It's even better than a Choice Band, however, because it lets Seismic Toss nail the opponent for 200.
This is literally what makes that 125 base Attack Stat so ridiculously threatening - an ability that acts as a permanent 1.5x multiplier that has the added bonus of breaking through Focus Sash, Sturdy, Multiscale, and anything else you want to add to the list. It is Adaptability on crack. It is Choice Band 2.0. It is absolutely absurd.
Why are we assuming that Kangaskhan will be at +2?
I hate to sound like an ass, but to have seen people ask this question in this thread is almost jaw-dropping - are we even playing the same game? Have you actually been laddering against competent players on the OU Beta or PokeBank OU ladders? Do you have a good understanding of how Power-Up Mega Kangaskhan functions?
Sorry for the condescension, but I am quite baffled. Nonetheless, I will answer this question, because as I write this post, I do not think that many have actually gone out of their way to address why, for most calculations, we assume that Mega Kangaskhan has already, effectively, used Swords Dance.
Encounters with Mega Kangaskhan can usually be narrowed down the following scenarios.
Mega Kangaskhan has been brought in against something that has been weakened.
The longer time passes, the more opportunities the opponent has to bring Mega Kangaskhan in. If something of your opponent's has just died, but not before it severely weakened or outright crippled the current Pokemon, Mega Kangaskhan will be there. Given calculations against some of the sturdier Pokemon, we can probably assume that Pokemon that have been brought down into the ~15% range are likely to die from Parental Bond Power-Up Punch, which puts Kangaskhan at +2 and good health, ready to bury a few Pokemon, if not the rest of the opposition's team, before leaving.
Mega Kangaskhan has been brought in against something it can force out / Mega Kangaskhan can set up on it.
There are numerous Pokemon Mega Kangaskhan is capable of forcing out - namely anyone that a) can't kill it and b) doesn't want to let it set-up. This usually prompts switches to Ghost types or Pokemon with Intimidate in an attempt to minimize the boost. Switching in a Ghost type Pokemon that's name isn't Sabeleye can backfire, though, as Parental Bond Crunch / Fire Punch is still going to hurt, and from what I remember, 2HKO's Trevenant and Gourgiest, while 0 / 4 Timid Gengar probably won't be all too pleased switching into Crunch, and the damage from Fire Punch is probably going to sting a lot.
This puts a lot of teams in a position where they are pretty much screwed. Switching in something on the Power-Up Punch that isn't Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Rocky Helmet Garchomp means losing it next turn to the +2 Return, or, if it is faster than Mega Kanga, the +2 Sucker Punch.
Because the two condition (among notable others, no doubt) are not particularly difficult to fulfill, Mega Kanga will almost always be at +2, and because of that, we have no reason to assume that for all important calculations, Kangaskhan is in fact, not at +2.
Mega Kangaskhan vs. The Meta
vs. Every Steel-Type that matters
Assume: +2 252 ATK Adamant Mega Kangaskhan Return (102 Base Power)
vs. 224 HP / 252 DEF (Impish) Skarmory: (46.1 - 54.4%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock w/Rocky Helmet; 97.7% chance w/Leftovers; Guaranteed w/Prior Damage.
vs. 252 HP / 208 DEF (Relaxed) Ferrothorn: (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock w/Rocky Helmet; 61.3% chance w/Leftovers; Guaranteed w/Prior Damage.
vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Relaxed) Mega Aggron: (33.4 - 39.5%) -- Guaranteed 3HKO.
vs. 252 HP / 0 DEF (Adamant) Metagross: (57.9 - 68.6%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.
vs. 252 HP / 108 DEF (Timid) Jirachi: (58.9 - 69.8%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.
vs. 248 HP / 0 DEF (Calm) Heatran: (65.5 - 77.2%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO.
vs. 248 HP / 0 DEF (Adamant) Scizor: (77.8 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
Notes:
All of these Pokemon are 2HKO'd by a move they're supposed to be able to sponge.
If Skarmory switches into the Power-Up Punch, it is promptly OHKO'd by Fire Punch the following turn.
If Ferrothorn switches into the Power-Up Punch, it is promptly OHKO'd by Fire Punch or 2HKO'd by Earthquake the following turn(s). (+0 PUP: 16.4 - 19.8%, +1 PUP: 12.5 - 15.3%, +2 Earthquake: 60.7 - 71.8%).
If Mega Aggron is not carrying Superpower, or if Mega Kangaskhan is at more than 70% of it's health, Mega Aggron is set up on and promptly destroyed by Fire Punch or Earthquake. (PUP does 15% minimum, while Earthquake does 66.5 - 78.4% and Fire Punch 49.7 - 58.7%). With that in mind, though, Mega Aggron is a solid check to Mega Kangaskhan, but only if he's at full health.
If Metagross switches into the Power-Up Punch he is killed by Sucker Punch, Earthquake, or Fire Punch.
If Jirachi switches into the Power-Up Punch, he is killed by Sucker Punch, Earthquake, or Fire Punch.
Heatran needs to carry Will-O-Wisp in order to threaten Mega Khan, otherwise he has to rely on a 30% burn rate from Lava Plume - if he's even running that.
Scizor is destroyed no matter what.
Skarmory is the only Steel-type Pokemon capable of switching into the Power-Up Punch and forcing Mega Kangaskhan out if he doesn't happen to be running Fire Punch. Mega Aggron is the only Steel-type Pokemon capable of switching into the Power-Up Punch, able to take any move Mega Kangaskhan uses, and also win should Mega Kangaskhan be at or under 70% of her health. In addition to that, Mega Aggron is the only Steel-Type who can guarantee victory against Mega Kangaskhan at full health should she try to use him to set up, as Heavy Slam + Superpower will kill her after Stealth Rock. Unfortunately, no reliable recovery means you won't be able to save him after he does his job, meaning Kanga will claim a victim.
In case this happens to go over anyone's head: +2 Return 2HKO's the most physically defensive Pokemon running around OU that also resist it. They can't switch into the Power-Up Punch, while +2 anything else will more than likely OHKO them. Fire Punch will be available post Poke-Bank and the best move Mega Kangaskhan can run in that last slot. Ghost Types not named Sableye will probably be eliminated by Choice Scarf / Assault Vest Tyranitar, or simply worn down to such an extent that they are no longer capable of threatening Khan.
If Kangaskhan is capable of plowing through damn-near everything that resists its STAB, what does that say about the rest of our options?
vs. Others
vs. 252 HP / 252 DEF (Impish) Hippowdon: (81.6 - 96.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock; cannot switch into the Power-Up Punch. Can only force out w/Whirlwind.
vs. 252 HP / 252 DEF (Impish) Landorus-T: (80.3 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO factoring Intimidate and Stealth Rock; as a bulky pivot he will have taken prior damage and he cannot switch into the Power-Up Punch.
vs. 248 HP / 252 DEF (Bold) Rotom-W: (120.3 - 142.1%) -- OHKO. Is 2HKO'd without any boosts (60.5 - 71.3%). Cannot switch in.
vs. 244 HP / 248 DEF (Impish) Gliscor: (93.7 - 110.2%) -- OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Cannot switch in.
Every single one of these Pokemon is OHKO'd by a combination of Power-Up Punch and Return, cannot switch-in if Mega Kangaskhan is already boosted or if they are weakened even slightly, and do not have the offensive prowess or speed needed to damage Kangaskhan significantly enough for it to be revenge killed by priority.
How are we dealing with Mega Kangaskhan?
We aren't.
Pokemon are forsaking Leftovers recovery to deal with a single, dominating threat capable of 2HKO'ing anything in the tier with it's resisted STAB move, OHKO'ing said Pokemon with the appropriate coverage move (which you don't know it's running until it's too late), OHKO'ing literally everything else with a combination of Power-Up Punch and Return (effectively punishing players for not running a Ghost typeSableye and also for allowing a Pokemon to be weakened enough for Mega Kanga to switch-in and set up, or for running Pokemon not able to immediately threaten Mega Kangaskhan should he come in, like Mega Aggron) and severely inhibits the teambuilding process because you literally do not have a reason to not be running Mega Kangaskhan / Mega Kangaskhan Check 1 / Mega Kangaskhan Check 2 / Mega Kangaskhan counter eliminator (based on your coverage move of choice) / Stealth Rock / Talonflame and/or offensive partner.
I am grimly reminded of the D/P Garchomp metagame. Not that I was around for it, but I've done enough reading to know that the vast majority of teams were Garchomp / Garchomp check/counter 1 / Garchomp check/counter 2 / Anti-Garchomp check check / and two more slots I can't quite remember.
Conclusion
Ban it.
So basically, Terrakion comes in as something dies, Mega Kanga switches out, Close Combat bounces off an Aegislash, Terrakion is forced back out, rinse and repeat. Of course you can try to be a pro and predict but that's REALLY risky for both sides.
I was thinking about posting this type of argument, but you got it first. I guess I'll just back this up a bit more.
Checks aren't defined by an inability to swap in, it's just not safe for them to do so 100% of the time. A choice banded Garchomp could easily pound a Togekiss with Stone Edge or Poison Jab on the swap in, but if it's using Dragon Claw or EQ as Togekiss comes in, it's checked, and nothing was forced to be sacrificed.
This will hardly ever happen with Kanga. Sableye and Dusclops are the only pokemon of the top of my head that can safely do that.
My initial feelings toward Kanga was that it should be quick-banned because it was so ridicules. After playing a fair number of games against it, this opinion has changed, if only slightly. I'll give my reasons, and what I feel actually counters/devalues the Pokemon considerably.
Will-o-Wisp: As someone stated earlier, one of the only true counters to Kanga (that gets any legitimate type of usage) is Saybleye. Part of this reason is priority Will-o-Wisp. If you can burn Kanga at some point in the match, it's power is drastically cut. Even a PuP just balances out the attack drop. Kanga also lacks any real form of healing outside of Drain Punch, so the residual damage does wear it down quick. While still dangerous when burnt, the raw power of the Poke is curbed significantly, and its chance to sweep you out of nowhere is drastically reduced.
VoltTurn: This strategy, from my observations, runs circles around Kanga. Rotom obviously forms the core here, able to burn and Volt Switch. Part of the reason is that forcing switches against Kanga is one of your strongest bets for killing it outright from Rocks/residual damage, and VoltTurn makes this absurdly easy. Throw in something like Lando-T for the intimidate and Kanga is often forced out or the opponent will lose tempo as you U-Turn into Gengar or some such Poke. Basically, if you are able to keep Kanga at arms reach it becomes significantly easier to deal with. The biggest issue with Kanga is how easy it swings tempo back into your favor. Play her against anything she outpaces or KO's with PuP and you're just screwed. Even when you do take it down, the loses to your side will almost certainly be worse than the opponents. this is why VoltTurn is so helpful, as it deals damage while still letting you maintain tempo. People throughout this thread have mentioned Kanga's bulk, but it's really not that much after it's been worn down repeatedly throughout the match.
As a side note: Physically defensive Mega-Venasuar helps a lot against Kanga on a VoltTurn team. Kanga doesn't really have anything outside of Return that really threatens much damage, and 'Saur can just Sleep Powder in response. Obviously, 'Saur does jack-shit if Kanga has PuP boost, however, which of course is always a very real problem. Thankfully, this can be sufficiently nullified with skillful playing by the VoltTurn player, and often eases prediction with 'Saur a little too.
"Defensive teams cry": Kanga's best match-up looks to be against slower, defensive teams that it just can't keep up with it's raw damage output. If there was any reason to ban Kanga, it would be because it harms defensive teams to a major degree. I talked with one guy with a 2100ish rating using a Rock Helm Skarm, and said it was one of his only chances against Kanga. When one of the premier physical walls is forced to run a "meh" item like Helmet just to stand a chance against Kanga, there's probably an issue.
Beyond that, Kanga also has the horrible feeling that Garchomp and 'Mence gave during gen 4 in which you pretty much knew you had to sack a team member to take it down. Talonflame can deal larges amount of damage, but if Kanga is at full life it has to die to do so. Scizor and Azumarill are in the same boat. Faster Scarf users like Genesect get fucked by a +2 Sucker Punch, and the same goes for other revenge killers like Terrakion and friends.
The point I'm trying to make is that Kanga is not unstoppable, but your team has to lose a lot of tempo to bring it down (part of the reason I find VoltTurn So helpful). Should a Poke be legal when it provides its user with such an immediate advantage in tempo as so as it's sent out? That's for smarter people than me to decide, but I thought I'd throw my two cents into the pot.
Another silly, but situational thing you can do is you can switch something with Cute Charm in when Mega Kanga uses Fake Out. Sylveon isn't going to like +2 Returns, but if something with Cute Charm survives an attack by Mega Kanga... That's a 51% chance of Mega Kanga becoming Attracted that turn. And it is hilarious.
Also, Effect Spore Breloom/Amoonguss. Oh and Flame Body Volcarona, Talonflame (lol), etc.
Oh! Another way to troll Mega Kangaskhan would be to send in a Gooey Goodra when she Fake Outs.
Also, Static Ampharos and Manecetric before they go Mega... Doubt Manecetric would be able to take much though...
Poison Point is worth a mention too, but that's not going to really help you too much...
Base 100 Speed 'mons are easily statused too, so... Still on the fence for this, still would rather test it before any sort of ban.
One of the arguments I haven't seen much of is the effect of Mega-Kangaskhan on entire playstyles as opposed to its few checks/counters.
For simplicity, I will focus on one playstyle: stall/defensive. After all, this playstyle should have at least one decent counter/wall for M-Kang, right?
I have seen M-Kangaskhan completely neuter/centralize entire stall teams (and so could M-Gengar for that matter). As has been mentioned before, Skarmory and Ferrothorn, two common Pokemon in stall that should be able to take hits due to resistances, are not good answers to M-Kangaskhan. And believe it or not, most people don't want to cripple/fodder those two Pokes, as they are even more crucial to defensive teams than to offensive teams. Stall teams are probably not going to want to sack Ferrothorn as it is central to checking Special attacks and some physical attacks. Also, using it as an M-Kangaskhan suicide-check prevents it from doing its support jobs (Spikes/Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Leech Seed, etc), you know, the things that make it useful in the first place. Same with Skarmory, which doesn't want to run any Helmets/Shed Shell/non-Leftovers item, and which relies mostly on Phazing/Roosting/not dying to the next Poke before Roosting.
Combining M-Kangashkan with another Physical sweeper in the absence of Sableye can be quite threatening, as one can hurt the checks just enough so that the second physical sweeper can finish the job.
Jellicent is not going to do much here against Crunch. Trevenant runs into Crunch, Fire Punch and Sucker Punch, in order of threatening options. You need a heck of a crystal ball if using Trevenant to counter M-Kang in the higher parts of the ladder. Prankster Thunder-Wave (from Key-Mon) relies on hax, which may or may not work, prevents burning M-Kang in the future, and you are probably going to lose this important supporter in the process to an EQ/Fire Punch. Rough-Skin Rocky Helmet Garchomp has little real use in this playstyle (and in many other styles that would prefer to use him as a sweeper). It will probably also die in the process, making it a shaky fodder-check at best. Toxic Chansey? Great, I needed to Power-Up Punch on something, and now I can.
Almost every single stall team basically needs to run Sableye as the spinblocker ghost as long as Mega-Kangaskhan is around (or Cofagrigus, but that has terrible Rest recovery and okay Pain Split at best). That is actually a full counter at high health due to Pranskter Will-o-Wisp, Pranskter Recover, and Foul Play. This has its own set of problems when you play against Starmie, and have to rely on predicting the spinblocks/Hydro Pump. Try to come in on a Donphan EQ with Sableye, it doesn't like that very much. It can work okay against Forretress, though.
I have loved using Sableye in this metagame, but 99% of you might not agree that it needs to be in this OU metagame. That's a shame. Just for the havoc M-Kang can cause to an entirely viable playstyle, I would vote to ban this thing.
Custap Berry, Encore/Destiny Bond Wobbuffett FTW??
This is as simple question for me. Of course it should be banned. Mega Kang is ridiculously powerful. Power up punch gets it to +2 AND does damage, and then you're in serious trouble
Reasons for ban
1. Little counters.
I can name Cofagrigus and maybe Sayble. That's it. That is bloody it. And the funny thing is, none of those are OU, so that could count as over centralizing!
2. Absurd power
A choice band boost, that breaks sashes, that allows for use of separate moves, and an easy way to hit +2. This would be kinda ok if it had like 50 base speed, but no. 100.
3. Bulk
Because it's fairly bulky,, that means Its it gets to +2 then it is hard to take down. Priority won't save you, it'll probably live. This would be fine on a normal pokemon, but it's crazy on Mega kang.
4. Walls fail
It blitzes through them
I can't think of any reason Not to ban it tbh. I say BAN.
Another silly, but situational thing you can do is you can switch something with Cute Charm in when Mega Kanga uses Fake Out. Sylveon isn't going to like +2 Returns
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 501-591 (127.4 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And Fake Out is a terrible move on M-Kang that not many people are even bothering to run. Why waste your time on that, when you can two-shot Steel-types with a STAB Return? By the way, all of the mons you've listed die to +2 Return. (But Effect Spore? Static? Really? They don't even activate all the time..)
You could make the case that MegaKangaskhan is one of (if not the best pokemon) in Pokebank OU and deserves to be banned. I am going to elaborate on what I believe to be the grossly under-represented side: that it should be OU.
It absolutely disgusts me how many people think Kangaskhanite should be banned for the wrong reasons. Not having counters/having counters has got nothing to do with warranting a ban. Demolishing walls after you let it set up does not warrant a ban. Incentivising you to run something you didn't used to run (Rocky Helmet instead of Leftovers) does not warrant a ban. MegaKangaskhan doesn't always know what you're going to swap in (or stay in) and can't always predict the right move to use, it doesn't spam Return and hit everything Super Effective. It also has 4MSS but even if it had 8 moves the point is that sometimes it tries to Scrappy PuP (predicting your ghost switch-in) and instead you just stayed in and attacked it, killing it or at least chunking it hard enough that you can now revenge kill it. Sometimes it tries to Crunch the incoming ghost and instead you brought in Terrakion. The reality is that 99% of the people on the pro-ban side have no idea why this thing deserves a ban, and frankly don't know how to play pokemon.
Nice sweeping generalization, 99% of the people argue to ban Megakahn because they don't know how to play Pokemon? Mhm, keep telling yourself that one... this drama isn't needed.
You're arguing that Megakahn can be beaten with prediction, which is of course true but means nothing. Prediction can't be used to consider something broken/not broken. Megakahn will never have perfect prediction but you can't assume that you will reliably win prediction wars either, and the fact is that 1 wrong prediction on your side generally equals 1 KO (and likely more) for Mega Kangaskahn, while its bulk allows it to survive a mispredict itself.
The main reason I think that Kangaskhanite should be left OU is that none of my teams ever run something niche to beat it. MegaKangaskhan is one of the many large threats in Pokebank OU and I don't have more trouble with it than the others. I honestly have more trouble with niche things like Tornadus-T, Deoxys', Rotom-W, etc because these are pokemon you either need something very specific to stop, or pokemon that you can't 'stop' doing what they do because they're just great at their jobs. Meanwhile the tools you use to beat MegaKangaskhan teams are the same tools that are simply good in general. Pokemon like Ferrothorn/Garchomp with RockyHelmet/IronBarbs/RoughSkin are just great pokemon in this metagame. Ghosts with Substitute/WoW are just great pokemon in this metagame. Revenge killers with Extremespeed/other fast priority/scarfers like Genesect are just great pokemon in this metagame. There are plenty of other pokemon that can run away with the game if you give them a turn to set up, or you didn't keep your best checks healthy enough, or you made one bad decision. With team preview there is no excuse to not know which pokemon you need to keep healthy, or how dumb it is to lock into a choiced move early, or any similar setup fodder.
Your personal experiences on the ladder are narrow if you have more trouble with Rotom-W than Kangaskahn... and I think from your examples I know why. You lack reliable answers to them because you're burning multiple slots to check Kanga with Rocky Helmet Ferro/Chomp plus Sableye, etc. This just proves the point that you must build your team with 3 checks specifically in mind for the 800-pound kangaroo in the room, and are forced into specific, less viable choices to counter it. I myself run Rocky Helm Skarm plus Sableye on my 30-2 team. Heck, I'm the one of the first to recommend bulky Rocky Helm Chomp, so yes they are "just great in the metagame".
But do you realize why they are great? Because Mega Kangaskahn has completely over-centralized the metagame! Would you be seeing Sableye/Cofagrigus/etc, Rocky Helm Chomp/Skarm or random stuff like RH Mandibuzz/Furfrou/etc if Kanga was gone? No. Kanga itself is what makes those choices viable, and they will disappear along with it.
Again, if you ran a team with 2-3 Air Balloon mons in Gen 5, would Excadrill seem broken to you? You would say, "But they're totally great in this metagame!" It's the same flawed logic and it doesn't work.
I just don't see how being the best pokemon, or having the best risk/reward, or whatever means that it is suddenly ban worthy. I am under the impression that we only ban things that truly break the game, rendering it unplayable as it was intended to be unless we all run said pokemon. Mewtwo is the classic case of this, you bring Mewtwo on your RBY team or you lose to any good player with Mewtwo on their team. Anyone who thinks MegaKangaskhan is that level of mandatory is crazy as you can witness people above 1850 constantly winning games without MegaKang against teams with MegaKang.
There IS no risk/reward to using Megakahn. There's only reward: it's incredibly powerful, decently bulky, decently fast, and has priority to boot. There is no reason not to use this on your team; even with zero support and little thought it pulls its weight. You say it's "suddenly ban worthy", which isn't true at all. Many players have known this thing was suspect for over a month. How can you not see this?
"Offensive Characteristic A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."
Mega Kangaskahn is the definition of being of this, needing zero support yet being able to 2HKO 99% of the tier with little effort... and this is just talking about PuP Sweeper sets. You've already mentioned Pokebank with stuff like ESpeed Genesect, so then you have to consider Megakahn's Seismic Toss for even more offensive insanity with no boosts needed. Wish support is just icing on the cake.
Yes, its a fearsome sweeper that often runs away with the game, but ban-worthy? Please.
Again, less drama. You still haven't shown anything as to how this Pokemon doesn't deserve a ban, aside from the standard "it can be checked with proper prediction and 2-3 specialized sets". Have you ever even used it yourself? I don't know if anything I say can/will change your mind, but here's the response you asked for anyway.
You said noone had a good argument without responding to mine, and then when I raise it you think I'm the snide one? MegaKang is so overcentralizing that the best pokemon against it are currently underused? It's so good that people aren't using the best pokes against it? There is no risk/reward to using MegaKang? Do you know what these terms even mean?
MegaKangaskhan has to predict correctly to get it's sweep going. You have options to prevent this. I've said this all before, I give up. My posts clearly state why i believe you have way more tools than people are treating it like.
And not that it matters but I don't run Cofagrigus or Sabeleye or any other silver bullet for Megakang. I just have a balanced team and MegaKang gives me no more trouble than the other top OU pokes. I handle it with prediction and have many teams 2k+. As i have said several times you beat MegaKang by outplaying it, not with counters.
