Other Stall

[Princess Bubblegum]

And could you explain Amoongus as a pivot to me? I really want to try it but I can't figure out a good set to run on him, and he's countered me so many times...

Thanks to Regenerator and its amazing bulk Amoogus can often switch in to a powerful attacker to scout its move, take it, and switch out a Pokemon which can take it. An example I can think of right is something like vs Choice Band Dragonite. While Dragonite can easily 2HKO even physically defensive Amoonguss, however, using this information you can switch to another Pokemon to what it used: Fire Punch -> Heatran or Earthquake / Outrage -> Skarmory for example, all while Amoonguss its self helps back a good chunk of its own HP just by switching out.

This isn't even just choice band users, but Amoonguss can also scout out Pokemon sets and put an emergency stop with Spore. You can even mess with people and switch it around on resists, to stall out, if you are in otherwise a losing situation.

I use a Physically defensive set personally with Spore / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power of Choice. I support Clear Smog might be an option in the last slot for stall, but I haven't seen much use for it in the current meta, Stun Spore is poo on stall.

 

[Antonius the Great]

Thanks to Regenerator and its amazing bulk Amoogus can often switch in to a powerful attacker to scout its move, take it, and switch out a Pokemon which can take it. An example I can think of right is something like vs Choice Band Dragonite. While Dragonite can easily 2HKO even physically defensive Amoonguss, however, using this information you can switch to another Pokemon to what it used: Fire Punch -> Heatran or Earthquake / Outrage -> Skarmory for example, all while Amoonguss its self helps back a good chunk of its own HP just by switching out.

This isn't even just choice band users, but Amoonguss can also scout out Pokemon sets and put an emergency stop with Spore. You can even mess with people and switch it around on resists, to stall out, if you are in otherwise a losing situation.

I use a Physically defensive set personally with Spore / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power of Choice. I support Clear Smog might be an option in the last slot for stall, but I haven't seen much use for it in the current meta, Stun Spore is poo on stall.

Thanks! ^^ So the set I'm considering now is 248 HP/252 Def/8 SpD with Spore/Gastro Acid/Toxic/Giga Drain, Gastro Acid becomes useful against mons that rely on their abilities like Azumarill, Medicham, etc, and even Mold Breaker users, so I've really wanted to use it for a while ^^


I know there was discussion about trapping moves earlier, but has anyone seen a Poke with Sand Tomb + Smack Down running around? I'm curious to see how that would work against things like Skarmory

 

[vonK]

Honestly it probably woundn't work that well, sand tomb is a pretty good move but smack down is pretty awful, there are a lot of ways to kill skarmory, including hit it with nearly any special move that it doesn't resist once or twice. Also if you're looking to counter Azumarill (not running knock off)/Medicham/Mawile then Cofagrigus is better, especially since he packs WoW which completely cripples them and negates their ability upon contact. Amoongus is great against Azumarill but Mega-Venusaur is far better, and it should never be pitted against Medicham because STAB zen headbutt coming from its massive attack will pretty much murder it.

 

[Antonius the Great]

Honestly it probably woundn't work that well, sand tomb is a pretty good move but smack down is pretty awful, there are a lot of ways to kill skarmory, including hit it with nearly any special move that it doesn't resist once or twice. Also if you're looking to counter Azumarill (not running knock off)/Medicham/Mawile then Cofagrigus is better, especially since he packs WoW which completely cripples them and negates their ability upon contact. Amoongus is great against Azumarill but Mega-Venusaur is far better, and it should never be pitted against Medicham because STAB zen headbutt coming from its massive attack will pretty much murder it.

True, true, I would still like to test it though, it's a bit unexpected.
I would like to run Cofagrigus but he has no means of recovery really; even Amoongus has Giga Drain, but Cofagrigus relies on Lefties and doesn't have a lot of options as far as sets go. Recovery is a big deal for me... I'll try him out on a team though he might still function well. I'm also not sure if he's worth a team slot for that, as those Pokemon aren't extremely common to begin with.

 

[vonK]

Cofagrigus has all the same recovery options as Rotom-W (chestoresto, pain split), and is one of the best spreaders of burn next to Jellicent and Rotom-W, however without reliable recovery or any firepower to speak of he has trouble distinguishing himself outside of that and Mummy. He partners pretty decently with Blissey/Chansey though, but hazards of any sort cut into him pretty quickly.

Edit: Are there any viable fire-types at all aside from Heatran and Rotom-H? This is a little sad.
Edit: Is Weezing of all pokemon viable with the WoW boost? His defensive typing + ability is nothing short of fantastic but is he worth it without reliable recovery?

 

[Bedschibaer]

Edit: Are there any viable fire-types at all aside from Heatran and Rotom-H? This is a little sad.
Edit: Is Weezing of all pokemon viable with the WoW boost? His defensive typing + ability is nothing short of fantastic but is he worth it without reliable recovery?

There is volcarona, infernape, Entei, Ninetales I guess and Charizard because of the megas. If you meant specifically for stall, that's because fire is a terrible defensive typing.
I tried making use of Weezing in OU, it's just underwhelming. I mean it's not that bad, and the buff to wow and poison kinda helps, but it still does bad against many of the offensive threats in ou. I can imagine a set with wow, pain split and maybe clear smog or haze working, but it won't do the job as well as other physical walls.

 

[vonK]

Yeah I figured about Weezing, I'm just trying to make a decent list of what can work in stall.
As for fire typing it actually has a lot of resists and only 3 weaknesses, but sadly those 3 are 3 of the most common attacking types, but with good stats, secondary typing and ability this can be mitigated.

 

[Antonius the Great]

Regarding Florges...
For the list, I dislike the mention of Florges my dislike for Florges is soo strong it's ridiculous. She has useless abilities and terrible HP to be passing wishes, and her physical frailty leaves her easily revenge killed by Bullet Punch and she falls to physical attackers because Wish is not reliable recovery without running Protect as well, which limits her set options.
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 246-291 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 330-390 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 339-400 (94.1 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Florges: 250-294 (69.4 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
She really can't stay in a lot without being KO'd, she needs very hefty support to stay around for any good amount of time and Sylveon is just much better. That's all I can say about her..

 

[FallenFoliage]

I've read through a myriad of posts and couldn't help but nodding at all of the wonderful points brought up.
I hope to contribute to the discussion by bringing something I found to be a tad overlooked back under analysis.
Nearly every team is running Mandibuzz, and for good reason.
It has a great ability, plausible defenses, and gifted access to none other than perhaps the most annoying move in the game right now: Defog.

Because of all of the aforementioned, Stall will be a little harder to pull off being that it will now rely more heavily on hazards.
Yet, they will also now be harder to keep up as well.

How can we play around this? Will having various Mons running phazing moves like Roar and Whirlwind become viable? What speedy taunt users fit with this sort of synergy?

 

[zachmac]

How can we play around this? Will having various Mons running phazing moves like Roar and Whirlwind become viable? What speedy taunt users fit with this sort of synergy?

You could use Toxic on it.

Mandibuzz is weak to stealth rocks, and in order to defog it, it'll have to swap into it. Combine this with poison, and Mandibuzz won't be able to keep up, even with leftovers and roost. It takes persistence, but that's what stall is best at. A mega evolution is also ideal to keep it from messing over your team with Knock Off.

With handling defog in general, it's probably best to carry some pokemon with stronger offensive stats, like Landy-T and MegaSaur just to be safe, and also try relying on Will-o-Wisp and Toxic more.

 

[Wizzig]

How are you guys dealing with Conkeldurr? Everybody realized he is amazing when he just spams knock off and I cannot for the life of me find something to reliably wall and kill the thing because of it. I have been using Slowbro to eat the first knock off and heal off the damage using slack off and regenerator. Because most of them run assault vest and use drain punch to heal damage, they become super hard to kill directly. Instead I have been using toxic to kill him, but because of guts this only works without losing something crucial about half the time. Is anybody else struggling with him?

Also, Knock Off in general is stupid. It is bad enough that steel no longer resists dark, but the move got a huge buff too. To make things worse, TONS of mons get access to Knock Off. Here is the list if you haven't seen it.(No seriously. Screw that move tutor). At the moment, every team needs to be made with 1 or 2 pokemon in mind that can afford to lose their item or cannot lose their item(megastone). The move feels way too good and I hope the tiering council considers suspecting the move on the basis that it is miserable to play against and does way too much damage considering the huge utility it brings and the unending list of mons that can learn it. I doubt it will happen though. #EndRant

 

[AOPSUser]

How are you guys dealing with Conkeldurr? Everybody realized he is amazing when he just spams knock off and I cannot for the life of me find something to reliably wall and kill the thing because of it. I have been using Slowbro to eat the first knock off and heal off the damage using slack off and regenerator. Because most of them run assault vest and use drain punch to heal damage, they become super hard to kill directly. Instead I have been using toxic to kill him, but because of guts this only works without losing something crucial about half the time. Is anybody else struggling with him?

Also, Knock Off in general is stupid. It is bad enough that steel no longer resists dark, but the move got a huge buff too. To make things worse, TONS of mons get access to Knock Off. Here is the list if you haven't seen it.(No seriously. Screw that move tutor). At the moment, every team needs to be made with 1 or 2 pokemon in mind that can afford to lose their item or cannot lose their item(megastone). The move feels way too good and I hope the tiering council considers suspecting the move on the basis that it is miserable to play against and does way too much damage considering the huge utility it brings and the unending list of mons that can learn it. I doubt it will happen though. #EndRant

Mega Venusaur is your answer to Conkeldurr and Knock Off, as well as many other mons. There's no other Mega as good as Mega Venusaur for Stall.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Perhaps I haven't climbed the ladder high enough, but honestly I haven't had too much of an issue with Conkeldurr and I don't use Venusaur might you. Between Amoonguss, Tentacruel, and the physical walls I run, I will often find that I can check and counter it quite easily. Honestly, I feel like that if you checked Lucario adequately, you have also checked Conkeldurr automatically. Heck, I can even use freaking Chansey can Blissey to check it with Seismic Toss when it is as low health if I need to. It just seems like overall a non-problem, perhaps you just need more Fighting-type resists?

 

[vonK]

Just wondering, what is your current team? Also how well has tentacruel fared you and what do you run on it? I've had it pegged as less useful this gen given all the new offensive threats, defog making rapid spin less important and rain nerf, but I've been hearing a lot about it recently and am beginning to reconsider.

Also yeah Mega Venusaur is pretty amazing, he's easily the biggest gift given to stall this generation, playing with him feels a lot like easy mode sometimes. Also even though the Mega-stone is not considered an item I think it's actually a pretty useful one in a lot of ways, not having to fear knock off or trick feels great.

 

[Ajwf]

This second team I've been messing with has been such a mess because it doesn't have mega venu... I've been changing the core around fro the past 4 hours to try and take care of mega zards and lucario, and it is really difficult to do without falling back heavily on the Dreadnought core. I'm currently looking for a bulky water to compliment Gorgeist-super, Skarm, Chansey and Clefable (though clefable is tentative, I needed a rock setter to give skarm some breathing room). I'm looking at azumaril, kinda, but want to know how people are finding success taking on zard X and if they have had any luck with Mega lucario outside of Jelli/Tenta (jelli is a bad choice if I have gourgeist)

I'm also trying to avoid a fight/ground weakness a bit as Lando was ripping through the team earlier (since then, I have made adjustments).

I have to say, Charizard X as a bulky poke fares well given his resistances. I'm only jealous of not being able to run mega gard as a stall poke.

 

[vonK]

Do you have any replays showcasing Charizard X's bulk?
Also to be honest I've found Chesnaught to be the second best grass pokemon in stall next to M-Venusaur (and possibly Amoongus), especially when paired with Jellicent. Ferrothorn has better stats and typing but his biggest problem is lack of defensive synergy with Heatran, who I've been having a hard time making a stall team without.

Kudos to you for pioneering the VenuTran combo, and your old team was/is probably the best stall team I've seen so far.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

My current team is roughly Amoonguss / Tentacruel / Skarmory / Heatran and because I am currently testing both Blissey and Chansey to write about, it varies between:
-Blissey / Hippowdon
-Chansey / Landorus-T or Gliscor

The team is pretty solid IMO, it does have a few odd weaknesses depending on what I am testing.

The overall team format is pretty solid, the only think I think I could debatable swap out is Amoonguss for another Grass-type. Again, for a spinning team, I think a format of Skarm / Tentacruel / Heatran / Grass / Pink blob / Bulky Ground to be pretty solid.

As far as Tentacruel goes, at first I just threw it on as a Pokemon to spin, however as time goes on I am finding it more and more of an invaluable Pokemon, checking a variety of fighting types, as well as other niche Pokemon like Ageislash, Clefable if need be.

 

[vonK]

One last question: What sets are your Amoongus, Tentacruel and Hippowdown running?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

They are all physically defensive (tentacruel has 36 speed creep though)

As for the sets

Amoonguss: Spore / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Hidden Power whatever, I talked about this set a few pages back

Hippowdon: Earthquake / Slack Off / Ice Fang / Whirlwind

There is some more testing I want to do with Hippowdon though, I keep on finding Rock Slide pretty useful in practice. Also from playing with Landorus-T, I have realized the benefits of having 2 Stealth Rock Pokemon on the team, so I will be testing Stealth Rock over Whirlwind soon.

Tentacruel: Rapid Spin / Scald / Sludge Bomb / Haze

Haze is the key which makes Tentacruel great IMO, when I started using it is turned it from "meh" to a keeper. I cannot exaggerate how useful it is, from set sweepers to baton pass, to calm mind boosters, it continually useful in checking so many things.

 

[Ajwf]

Do you have any replays showcasing Charizard X's bulk?
Also to be honest I've found Chesnaught to be the second best grass pokemon in stall next to M-Venusaur (and possibly Amoongus), especially when paired with Jellicent. Ferrothorn has better stats and typing but his biggest problem is lack of defensive synergy with Heatran, who I've been having a hard time making a stall team without.

Kudos to you for pioneering the VenuTran combo, and your old team was/is probably the best stall team I've seen so far.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-70110954
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-72127077

They're semi-good demonstrations of his bulk, and this was when I still had 140 invested into his physical side to KO heatran on eq (Now I just 2hko because what can heatran do back... earth power shouldn't kill the current spread).

But yeah, the team has gotten shifted a ton yesterday to see if I could take dragons/fires/ice better. Gave up on flying, I think. Which, you know, if thick fat azumarill wasn't so worthless on the attack side, I might use it. But I think I'm going to use Azumarill and find a rocker that can resist flying (not that hard) and not expand on weaknesses to the team (a little bit harder because you have to define what that is).

 

[vonK]

Perhaps Charizard X would make a decent member of a stall team after all, his defensive stats aren't awful, his resists are usable and his weaknesses are for the most part coverable, I'll playtest with him in a bit and try to gauge what he's capable of.

That said those replays kind of confirmed what I already suspected about AV tangrowth, it's not that good. Grass is a pretty bad defensive typing, and many pokemon carry something it's weak to. By slapping an AV on it you're covering one of its worst stats, but you're also denying it of spores, synthesis, leech seed, etc which are the best perks of running a grass type in the first place.

Also thick fat Azumarill is an... interesting choice. His defensive typing and stats are pretty good but does he have the movepool to back that up?

 

[zachmac]

Also thick fat Azumarill is an... interesting choice. His defensive typing and stats are pretty good but does he have the movepool to back that up?

No, 100/80/80 defenses are not good. At least not something that's trying to stall. It also resist ice and fire anyway, so a x4 resistance when you could have double attack is a huge waste.

Huge power is the only reason Azumarill is even worth considering. Without it, Azu doesn't really have a niche.

 

[Ajwf]

No, he doesn't :/ He gets soak/toxic, which is interesting. Sap sipper is a cool choice as well, but huge power still doesn't make it that strong when you aren't really investing.

I'm trying to neutralize a couple of weaknesses, and so the team is so fucked right now. I have a Solrock on it right now (Rock type, immune to ground, actually an excellent TF counter, recovery and rocks... I'm not sure what I think about it). Testing is always really odd, but you learn a lot about teams. Genesect needs a hard counter somewhere, and that's generally a fire type.

Gourgeist is... better on paper than in practice? I mean, it does hard wall some stuff, but it is a major candidate for 4mss. Willowisp, Rest/PainSplit, shadow sneak, seed bomb, leech seed all are moves you have to consider.

What is the concensus on suicune? I'm looking at a rest set with CM or some odd set like that for bulk. In the past, I've found Rest passable, but nothing more... For whatever reason, I'm struggling to find good pieces right now... Looking to neutralize fire/dragon/ice/flying weaknesses. Solrock obviously knocks out the flying/fire easily enough, but sucks on the special defense side. So I need a ___/water core capable of using stealth rocks somewhere and getting those resists gone.

 

[zachmac]

I'm trying to neutralize a couple of weaknesses, and so the team is so fucked right now. I have a Solrock on it right now (Rock type, immune to ground, actually an excellent TF counter, recovery and rocks... I'm not sure what I think about it)

Solrock has 70/85/65 defenses. In contrast, Infernape has 76/71/71. Solrock's defenses average out at 70. Infernape's defenses average out at about 72.66.
Ew.

As much as I love this guy and Lunatone, they aren't exactly what you should be looking for in a competitive team, type synergy or not.

 

[Ajwf]

What Infernape doesn't have is resistance/recovery.

Again, I recognize how bad it is. It hasn't performed terribly, but right now, it is a good catalyst to find other issues as it is passable with the team.