Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You still get OHKO'd by giga drain at that point. Let's do some advanced math on that.

Saying max role, mega venu will live with 26 HP. Giga drain takes away all 242 HP that Cloyster had, and gives 141 back, giving Venu at min 167, aka a little more than 46% health.

Say you role min, get him down to 25%, or 91 HP. 232 HP is what he ends with. 63% of his health.

So, saying Mega venu comes in right away (Cloyster is probably leading or coming in early, as that is standard tactic for this guy because ice weak)

The actual end-turn damage is 37-54% health using Icicle plate. So gg damage?

Or Mega Venusaur has taken some prior damage and flatout dies after switching in, which is reasonable since Shell Smash Cloyster is (well, should be used as) a late game sweeper.

Or it's not even physically defensive. I'm thinking that a specially defensive set might even get OHKO'd by +2 Icicle Plate Cloyster.

 

[Jukain]

Alternatively you can run King's Rock, which causes a ridiculous amount of flinches. Icicle Plate/Never-Melt Ice is a cool item for the consistent power, but King's Rock gives you an awesome flinch chance that can lead to dealing double the damage. Definitely notable.

 

[alphatron]

Once again, you are not leading with cloyster. Nobody leads with a sweeper and anybody attempting to do so is going to have a hard time. You're also forgetting that SR is probably on the field, as even with defog it's still a pretty prevalent hazard.

 

[Ajwf]

Your general variants, the most common, focus sash, do not wait late game. That would destroy the purpose of a sash. The whole usage of Cloyster runs 36.5% Focus sash, which suggests all of those are not late game sweepers. In fact, the icicile plate reaches a huge .5% and the only other relevant items are white herb (26%) and King's Rock (17%). The king's rocks aren't generally a sweeping set, more a wall set or a set for someone who wants to troll. Even if we take all of the Herb set and half of the Rock set (35%), you're still not up to the lead sets.

And then there's the lefty set, which I can only guess at being a spinning set...

 

[branflakes]

Based on my experiences using and facing Rotom-W, I strongly believe that it belongs in S-Rank and not anything lower. I feel as though the discussion on this pokemon needs more insight, so here's a wall of text.

First I'll start with comparing Rotom-W to the definitions of an S-Rank pokemon as opposed to A or A+ rank:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

I don't really need to bold specific statements in this description. Obviously Rotom-W isn't meant to sweep significant portions of the metagame, but acts as a check to nearly half the metagame if I'm not mistaken. It can support its teammates extremely well by preserving momentum and crippling anything that is immune to Volt Switch with WoW and Hydro Pump. It's such a fantastic go-to glue pokemon that has great synergy with a crap ton of other S and A+ rank threats, and thus has very little opportunity cost hence why it's slapped on so many teams.

In terms of versatility, Rotom-W has a bit less than its company in S-rank. Obviously it cant bluff between physical and special sets, but it can run a few items and EV spreads to give it different "roles". Offensive chesto rest can bluff scarf, scarf can cripple with trick, and bulky variants can still run either chesto-rest or leftovers with pain split. Its low HP and solid defenses make it a difficult pokemon to wear down with Pain Split, which is annoying because wearing down Rotom-W is oftentimes the best way to deal with it.

Rotom-W has flaws like any other pokemon, but they are definitely mitigated by its strengths. Its seemingly lackluster stats are mitigated by its perfect "coverage" consisting of Volt Switch, Hydro Pump and WoW, which can be thoroughly dealt with by only Electric-immune pokemon that can take a Hydro Pump and don't care about WoW (in other words Gastrodon and Lanturn). Its low HP is mitigated by the increased recovery of Pain Split. Its lack of versatility is mitigated by not needing to run any other set. Rotom-W is a pokemon that really has no glaring issues.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

As for A Rank's description, it's simply inaccurate when applied to Rotom-W. Rotom-W requires no support whatsoever, and does its job consistently without a doubt. In terms of being a supporting pokemon, Rotom-W's movepool allows it so that it almost never gives opponents free turns. Meanwhile, Rotom-W is very well known for easily creating free turns and preserving momentum more efficiently than every Pokemon in the tier besides Genesect. There are two instances of Rotom-W not being able to easily create free turns: 1) Its user is too afraid to volt switch because of a present ground type that it can probably just cripple with WoW anyway. 2) The opponent has Gastrodon or Lanturn specifically for Rotom-W, in which case you can often predict a switch anyway.

There were a few points brought up in the previous pages that I should address:

Rotom-W is another thing that I find laughable in S; it's surely good, but what makes it any better than it was last gen? The ability to check Talonflame? It's signature STAB move was nerfed, it got literally 0 new helpful moves, hell even Hidden Power was nerfed. No doubt that it's a very good mon, but S-tier it is not.

Rotom-W received an important buff in regards to WoW accuracy increasing to 85%, which is really significant because Rotom-W is by far the best user of WoW in OU. Other than that, it's true that Rotom-W itself hasn't received much else, but it is still a better mon than it was last gen. The Hydro Pump nerf hardly affects Rotom-W because most pokemon that can take a Hydro Pump will not appreciate either WoW or Volt Switch. Most ground types in OU hate getting burned and/or still cannot take a 110 base power Hydro Pump. Even though Rotom-W is almost the same as it was in gen V, the metagame around it has changed significantly. It just happens to be more effective in this metagame than it was previously, and I'll try to pinpoint a few reasons:
-Checks Talonflame (may counter depending on set)
-Doesn't get worn down by Sandstorm nearly as much
-Doesn't have to deal with rain-boosted special sweepers anymore
-Can also check Aegislash
-Going down the list of A+ and A rank pokemon, Rotom-W seems to match up pretty well against most of them. Just because its a support pokemon doesn't mean it isn't centralizing and doesn't belong in S rank.

Ok, Rotom-W is a fantastic Pokemon but it's not very complicated to weaken it. It can come on many things but only 1 or 2 times especially with Stealth Rock up. It's for sure A/A+ Rank, but definitely not S Rank in my opinion.

Though this was the only reason Ojama provided for why Rotom-W shouldn't be S Rank, I disagree with it for two reasons.
1) It's really not enough of a reason. It's a single statement that also applies to other S Rank pokemon, and Rotom-W is not a wall in the first place.
2) It's not necessarily true. Rotom-W has perfect stats to make use of Pain Split effectively (low hp, high defenses), and the Chesto Rest set is meant to mitigate Rotom-W's ability to be worn down easily. It's difficult for me to say that something can't be worn down easily if it doesn't have a reliable instant-recovery move, but based on my 2000+ ladder experiences it has pretty good survivability and almost always ends up crippling half my opponent's team before (if) it goes down. Also, when facing Rotom-W I always have a tough time getting rid of it when the opponent doesn't sack it unnecessarily. Hell, even Rotom-H lasts a long time with rocks chipping off 25% on every switch-in.

TLDR: Either modify the descriptions of S and A rank or put this Pokemon where it really belongs.



edit: SmashBrosBrawl most of the arguments you just made were refuted in this post

 

[Ropeburn]

I'm unaware of the consensus surrounding DD Mence, but in my experience it is severely outclassed by Dragonite and Mega Charizard X. Its biggest selling point is Intimidate, but when your goal is to sweep lategame it's only truly useful a couple times a game. Compare that to Dragonite, who has Multiscale, Extreme Speed, and considerable bulk, and to Charizard, who can't be burned, takes neutral damage from Ice, and has a fantastic STAB to complement Dragon moves, and there's little reason to use DD Mence. The Scarf Moxie set is still excellent, especially since Stealth Rock is easier than ever to keep off the field. However, I don't think one set merits A ranking. I think B+ would be fair considering its best set is an effective revenge killer but fails to do anything useful against Togekiss, Azumarill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Heatran, etc.

I disagree, but can see your argument. Dragonite is a fantastic pokemon, but multiscale is very difficult to keep intact between Stealth Rock and Sandstorm. It's also a very greedy ability. Intimidate can be used numerous times, while Multiscale is a one-time reduction, unless you're running Roost, which isn't as effective this gen with the new fairy typing.

I've used both, and both have their merits. Dragonite gets outsped by anything with a choice scarf higher than base 80. Salamence has base 100, which is a respectable speed tier that lets it outspeed Scarf Genesect. I'm not sure where the comparison to Charizard X came from, because it takes up your mega slot, takes 50% on the switch-in. I don't think it's justifiable to compare the two since both are in different positions.

TL;DR: Salamence's speed tier and Intimidate/Moxie is enough to grant it a excellent niche as a DD user, and is not outclassed by Dragonite at all, and makes an effective Mix-Set. I feel like its role as DD, Scarf, and Mix is absolutely "A" material.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Rotom is a great glue for any team and is excellent at gaining momentum and thats pretty much what it is. Its lack of recovery and average stats makes it extremely easy to wear down, even stuff its supposed to wall can get around it. It loses to a lot of common threats because of this and is simply not the momentum machine that is genesect. Rotom is just a good pokemon, nothing mind blowing, it inst sweeping or walling most of the meta and its momentum building is not something that you can rely on through the entire match. It inst really that much different than last gen, except that it is checking different things, the fact that it is 1# is the same reason scizor was last gen. Extremely useful, easy to fit in any team and access to scout moves, but it still is far from being a metagame defining threat. Salamence should not be A or even close to that. Dragon dance sets are not just outclassed, they are simply put, bad. It doesnt have the bulk to set up and even if by a miracle it does, its easily revenge killed by most scarf users or outright walled by most fairies. Mixed sets are better done by kyurem black and mega garchomp. Scarf moxie is just a sick joke. The only way for it to be even remotely useful is by pairing with some ridiculous nuke and essentially clean what is left. Except that, at that point moxie is irrelevant and any other scarfer could had done the same. I can see it in B rank, but not A, just no.

 

[AOPSUser]

Your general variants, the most common, focus sash, do not wait late game. That would destroy the purpose of a sash. The whole usage of Cloyster runs 36.5% Focus sash, which suggests all of those are not late game sweepers. In fact, the icicile plate reaches a huge .5% and the only other relevant items are white herb (26%) and King's Rock (17%). The king's rocks aren't generally a sweeping set, more a wall set or a set for someone who wants to troll. Even if we take all of the Herb set and half of the Rock set (35%), you're still not up to the lead sets.

And then there's the lefty set, which I can only guess at being a spinning set...

Let's stop bringing up usage stats, the only two items Cloyster should ever be running are Life Orb and King's Rock. King's Rock brings a really nice flinch rate, meaning that you can sometimes win even against tough walls such as Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Life Orb, on the other hand, brings consistency and power, and is the suggested item on sweeper Cloyster. White Herb is useless because you sweep after Scizor and Talonflame are gone, while Focus Sash is even more useless.

Cloyster is definitely one of the most frightening sweepers in existence. Unless the user is stupid and tries to sweep before Talonflame, Scizor, and Breloom are gone, it will clean up a weakened team well. LO Icicle Spear+Rock Blast is really, really good, and only Steel-types resist both. Considering the only relevant Steels in OU are neutral to one of Icicle Spear or Rock Blast, and the fact that it can run Hydro Pump or Razor Shell, a well-played Cloyster is an excellent endgame sweeper. It's weak to priority and has no special bulk, but it's definitely B+ or A- IMO.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I also agree that Salamence isn't totally outclassed. I went all the way back to 4th gen OU when Mence was still OU and tried out the SubDD set with Lum Berry, with Outrage and Earthquake as coverage moves. In XY OU, this set still works really well. If anything Moxie made this set a lot better, as it gets more powerful over time. Ofcourse, pokes like Skarmory, Togekiss and Ferrothorn have to be dealth with first, but you can apply that to Dragonite too just to give an example. The difference is that Salamence is significantly faster and doesn't rely on Multiscale. Substitute helps immensely against pokes that attempt to status you, or when you predict a switch. It also makes revenge killing much harder (think Mamoswine). I think Moxie is definitely the ability of choice, as Intimidate won't help you in the long run whatsoever. The Scarf set was good last gen with Magnezone support, but with Fairy types and Aegislash everywhere as well as physical tanks like Landorus-T, that set just has quite a bad time. I think it's worthy of an A rank personally. Not A+, but definitely viable.

 

[Jukain]

Branflakes325 I support Ojama on this one. Rotom-W is an excellent glue Pokemon, but it has various limitations that make it not worth S Rank. Easy to wear down is pretty true in all my experience. Generally, the things it is supposed to check, it can only switch into a max of two or three times. Combined with how much it's supposed to check, it's rather easily worn down. Pain Split is very unreliable, as when stuff is at low health it's just not good. Hydro Pump misses a little too often, enabling things weak to it to stall you out of them (I'm looking at you Gliscor). Volt Switch just isn't powerful enough of an Electric STAB, though I don't debate its utility and that it's not used for the power, but the point still stands -- it doesn't do enough to Water-types. These limitations mean it just isn't S Rank.

 

[Spiegelmann]

Haven't seen much talk about Magnezone. Flash cannon tears through fairies and its steel typing lets it switch in on them with relative ease as well. It doesn't sweep teams on its own, but being able to remove new threats to dragon types is a great quality and both a specs or substitute set punch big holes in teams before it has to switch out. It compliments a lot of pokemon and helps them do their jobs more effectively by resisting and/or checking things that wall or threaten them. The nerf to Hidden Power doesn't matter on to the Modest specs set, as it still OHKOs scizor and ferrothorn while thunderbolt/volt switch take care of skarmory.

I think Magnezone deserves a spot on B to A- due to its supportive and damaging capabilities. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but at worst I'd say it should be a B- Pokemon.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Slowbro in B...even after its favorite Endless Battle strategy was banned, it shows that a solid Pokemon is just that.

I want to, once again, bring up two Pokemon that I believe should be ranked.

Thundurus-T is one of those Pokemon. Yeah, I know I started the Thundurus-I craze before, but Thundurus-T deserves some mention. Two immunities, the same great typing, and same usable movepool is all seen here; the big difference is between stat distribution and abilities. Thundurus-T more fits the direct sweeper role thanks to his higher Special Attack, but Thundurus-I has Prankster to back his slightly lower offenses. He...IS outclassed by Thundurus-I, so that's what will make me nominate Thundurus-T for B+/B.

I looked through the list again and found that Jirachi has no mention on it. I believe that this is because of two new flaws Jirachi has gained in Gen VI (outside of its straight-face-model). The first thing is the Defensive Steel Nerf. This means that more Pokemon threaten Jirachi like no other and it makes the Gen III Wish Pokemon easier to deal with and Revenge Kill. Aegislash takes advantage of this with Shadow Sneak and Gengar can come in and use Shadow Ball to deal decent damage. The second is that Electric-Types, as a whole, now stand a slightly better chance against ParaFlinch Jirachi. Being immune to Paralysis and resistant to Iron Head, this makes Jirachi's staple set somewhat less of a pain with Rotom-W being the one to deal with it. Then again, one could argue that Electric-Types check Togekiss because of the same exact facts; being immune to Paralysis and resistant to Air Slash is always nice. However, Jirachi gained this generation with new Fairy-Types to torture. On top of that, Jirachi is still as unknown as Deoxys-S; the nature of its moveset will have to be found out before you can properly deal with it. I don't like Jirachi, but I don't want it forgotten (plus, it learns Dazzling Gleam through TM), and I nominate Jirachi for A.

That's all I have for now and will add more when I believe I can think of legitimate arguments for others. If you agree/disagree, feel free to argue. ^_^

 

[Exeggutive]

Thundurus-T is really underrated offensively. It is extremely outclassed by Thundurus-I but it's still an awesome sweeper with the agility set. The weather nerf and HP nerf kinda suck for it... but it's still a solid offensive mon.

Jirachi I'm not sure about. It's very B tier at best. It gives way more free turns to top tier mons like Thundurus, Aegislash, Rotom-W and Genesect and Lucario if it doesn't have Fire punch. Steel/Psychic isn't nearly as good as it used to be since the main thing Jirachi was used for; outside of tanking draco meteors and shit, was to beat gengar and alakazam who can now hit it super effectively.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Why are you arguing it for A rank when your entire post was a rundown of every reason it should not be one? Those are supposed to be the standard threats and jirachi is certainly not one atm. Seriously who even is jirachi now, i have yet to see much talk about it and i am pretty sure there are no standard sets yet.

 

[Fuzznip]

Jirachi has gotten significantly worse this generation, there's no way it's S rank material like it was and I find it hard to believe Jirachi is suitable for A rank.

The Steel nerf completely and utterly destroyed Jirachi's walling/pivoting abilities. Boasting two additional weaknesses to some of the most common attacking types this generation, it has a harder time setting up or passing Wishes. It used be a sweet check to Pokemon such as Gengar, Bisharp, and Tyranitar, but it can't handle them as well as it did before. Now it's Knock Off and Pursuit weak, which is really disappointing for a Pokemon that used to be so effective.

The paralysis nerf is also really unfortunate. That just opens up a whole other can of worms that Jirachi is now going to have trouble with, such as Rotom-W, Zapdos, Thundurus, and more. It used to have a shot at paraflinching them to death, but not anymore.

Also Jirachi is one of the biggest Aegislash baits I've ever seen.

If anything, Jirachi is probably B rank since it does have its versatility going for it and it can still perform some team supporting roles, but it needs team support itself.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Wow, that was fast for the arguing request...

I don't find it solidly B rank, honestly. Plus, if we want to talk about Set-Up Bait, we still have to discuss Chansey in A when it's ALSO one of the biggest Aegislash baits. I understand where everyone is coming from on this, though. After a couple battles as of late, it now seems that it fits more B+ in my eyes.

Seriously who even is jirachi now.

One of the models in XY I disagree with the design on (all because of the straight face) and has APPARENTLY lost in usability this Gen. I wonder what will happen to Bronzong...I already forsaw Metagross dropping...

 

[Swampertz]

I would like to nominate Mega Gardevoir for Class A.

I would appreciate if this could start a discussion as I've tried to start one many times.

Mega Gardevoir and Gardevoir are both very threatening Pokemon this generation with their addition of Fairy type. I believe though, that the boosts of Mega Gardevoir are good enough to push that pokemon into Class A. Mega Gardevoir is often criticized for the lack of bulk with 68 HP and 65 Def, while completely overlooking the whopping 135 SpD. Not to mention, Mega Garde has 165 Special Attack, 6 more than Mega Charizard Y, and 100 Speed, which is the same as both Mega Charizards. It also has better bulk in every way than Gengar, along with more power, and only 10 fewer speed points.

Mega Gardevoir has a very unique ability in Pixilate. This is only shared with Sylveon as a hidden ability, and makes normal type moves Fairy Type, increases power by 1.3x and then proceeds to give them Gardevoir's STAB bonus on Fairy moves of another 1.5x. The case for this is Hyper Voice, a 90 power move, with Pixelate it becomes 117 power, and Gardevoir's Fairy STAB bonus it becomes a whopping 177.5. This can be partnered not only with Gardevoir's 165 Special Attack, at 471 with 252 EVs and Lv. 100, but the ability to use calm mind, increasing not only power, but the ability to take hits on it's already strong 135 Special Defense.

She also has a fantastic special movepool for coverage, with Hyper Voice in the Fairy Pixelate/STAB department, not to mention access to Psychic, Psyshock (Though it really just adds insult to injury), Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast. The set the combines the best moves is as follows:
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
Focus Blast is an amazing bonus for Gard against many of the Steel threats she faces with just one Calm Mind, such as Ferrothorn:
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 366-432 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While giving it a good chance to kill other threats like Genesect, thought a switch-out would be safer:
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 268-316 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Still, as shown above, Gardevoir does fall to threats like Genesect and Aeiglash, Mega Lucario and Scizor's Bullet Punch, though does 1HKO Talonflame with 1 Calm Mind Psychic should it survive the first hit, which it has an 82.2% chance to do, Mega Pinsir, who it is killed by for the same reason I'm arguing Gardevoir's A Ranking, and can have trouble with Chansey, and otherwise does a great job of slamming the rest of the metagame after a calm mind with those moves. Because of that, I believe that at least an A rank, even an A+ rank is deserved for Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Monte Cristo]

I would like to nominate Mega Gardevoir for Class A.

I would appreciate if this could start a discussion as I've tried to start one many times.

Mega Gardevoir and Gardevoir are both very threatening Pokemon this generation with their addition of Fairy type. I believe though, that the boosts of Mega Gardevoir are good enough to push that pokemon into Class A. Mega Gardevoir is often criticized for the lack of bulk with 68 HP and 65 Def, while completely overlooking the whopping 135 SpD. Not to mention, Mega Garde has 165 Special Attack, 6 more than Mega Charizard Y, and 100 Speed, which is the same as both Mega Charizards. It also has better bulk in every way than Gengar, along with more power, and only 10 fewer speed points.

Mega Gardevoir has a very unique ability in Pixilate. This is only shared with Sylveon as a hidden ability, and makes normal type moves Fairy Type, increases power by 1.3x and then proceeds to give them Gardevoir's STAB bonus on Fairy moves of another 1.5x. The case for this is Hyper Voice, a 90 power move, with Pixelate it becomes 117 power, and Gardevoir's Fairy STAB bonus it becomes a whopping 177.5. This can be partnered not only with Gardevoir's 165 Special Attack, at 471 with 252 EVs and Lv. 100, but the ability to use calm mind, increasing not only power, but the ability to take hits on it's already strong 135 Special Defense.

She also has a fantastic special movepool for coverage, with Hyper Voice in the Fairy Pixelate/STAB department, not to mention access to Psychic, Psyshock (Though it really just adds insult to injury), Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, and Focus Blast. The set the combines the best moves is as follows:
- Calm Mind
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
Focus Blast is an amazing bonus for Gard against many of the Steel threats she faces with just one Calm Mind, such as Ferrothorn:
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 366-432 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
While giving it a good chance to kill other threats like Genesect, thought a switch-out would be safer:
+1 252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 268-316 (94.6 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Still, as shown above, Gardevoir does fall to threats like Genesect and Aeiglash, Mega Lucario and Scizor's Bullet Punch, though does 1HKO Talonflame with 1 Calm Mind Psychic should it survive the first hit, which it has an 82.2% chance to do, Mega Pinsir, who it is killed by for the same reason I'm arguing Gardevoir's A Ranking, and can have trouble with Chansey, and otherwise does a great job of slamming the rest of the metagame after a calm mind with those moves. Because of that, I believe that at least an A rank, even an A+ rank is deserved for Mega Gardevoir.

No. In short that's what I know you will think this post is but, lets have details so I don't look like a reasonless dipshit. Mega gardevoir is simply too clustered into a speed tier full of amazing powerful pokemon that not only take it out, but it also leaves it in a speed tier that's simply overdone, many teams have adapted around the 100 base with many pokemon: various scarfers like kyurem B, pokemon like landorus-I, garchomp, priority abusers like talonflame and aegislash, etc. And mega gardevoir can't be both reasonably bulky, hit hard and be speedy at the same time in 1 EV spread, which are the 3 things it needs to make it shine in OU, seeing as speed is needed, and power is the main attraction of mega garde, you would be running 76 HP/176 SpA/252 Spe Timid (LO latias spread last gen) OR 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe timid. Either one loses to many priority users, scizor and most importantly: important threats (especially scarfers) such as but not limited to, banded chomp EQ, mega luke flash cannon, aegislash shadow ball etc. It's just such a high risk mid. reward pokemon. While it is good when used right (imo the best set is 4 attacks with HP fire/tbolt for the last slot) (I would take an excerpt from Halcyon. 's 69 special and show you what terror it can be when used by a competent player making all the right predictions, but that wouldn't be realistic) it just has too many flaws to shine above the rest, and certainly isn't playin' with the big boys like chomp and talon in A+

B-/B/B+ rank imo

 

[Swampertz]

No. In short that's what I know you will think this post is but, lets have details so I don't look like a reasonless dipshit. Mega gardevoir is simply too clustered into a speed tier full of amazing powerful pokemon that not only take it out, but it also leaves it in a speed tier that's simply overdone, many teams have adapted around the 100 base with many pokemon: various scarfers like kyurem B, pokemon like landorus-I, garchomp, priority abusers like talonflame and aegislash, etc. And mega gardevoir can't be both reasonably bulky, hit hard and be speedy at the same time in 1 EV spread, which are the 3 things it needs to make it shine in OU, seeing as speed is needed, and power is the main attraction of mega garde, you would be running 76 HP/176 SpA/252 Spe Timid (LO latias spread last gen) OR 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe timid. Either one loses to many priority users, scizor and most importantly: important threats (especially scarfers) such as but not limited to, banded chomp EQ, mega luke flash cannon, aegislash shadow ball etc. It's just such a high risk mid. reward pokemon. While it is good when used right (imo the best set is 4 attacks with HP fire/tbolt for the last slot) (I would take an excerpt from Halcyon. 's 69 special and show you what terror it can be when used by a competent player making all the right predictions, but that wouldn't be realistic) it just has too many flaws to shine above the rest, and certainly isn't playin' with the big boys like chomp and talon in A+

B-/B/B+ rank imo

I do understand what you are saying, but many of the speedier pokemon are special attackers, which Gardevoir can take, any Flash Cannons and shadow balls. As I said before, it DOES loose to some pokemon, but nothing under the A rank. I am happy to see Gardevoir in B+, but as by the definition of A rank "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently." I think it falls into that definition perfectly, as it does not have any flaws that pokemon like Gengar or the Lati@s don't have, and is only weak to Steel, Poison, and Ghost, and depending on if you use Focus Blast or Shadow Ball on her, all can be countered with coverage moves. Again, the major threats are Talonflame and Aeiglash's speed priorities, along with Mega Lucario and Scizor's bullet punches. I'm not saying Gardevoir is bulky, but that it can take two physical, and several special hits, and one could argue a 252HP/4Def/252SpA+ is also a viable EV spread, and makes it powerful enough to take enough hits to do massive damage to a team.

 

[Josh Morales]

I do understand what you are saying, but many of the speedier pokemon are special attackers, which Gardevoir can take, any Flash Cannons and shadow balls. As I said before, it DOES loose to some pokemon, but nothing under the A rank. I am happy to see Gardevoir in B+, but as by the definition of A rank "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently." I think it falls into that definition perfectly, as it does not have any flaws that pokemon like Gengar or the Lati@s don't have, and is only weak to Steel, Poison, and Ghost, and depending on if you use Focus Blast or Shadow Ball on her, all can be countered with coverage moves. Again, the major threats are Talonflame and Aeiglash's speed priorities, along with Mega Lucario and Scizor's bullet punches. I'm not saying Gardevoir is bulky, but that it can take two physical, and several special hits, and one could argue a 252HP/4Def/252SpA+ is also a viable EV spread, and makes it powerful enough to take enough hits to do massive damage to a team.

Saying that Mega Gardevoir can take two physical hits is just a lie imo, maybe only if it were resisted but 68/65 physical defense is genuinely atrocious.

 

[Goutland]

Branflakes325 I support Ojama on this one. Rotom-W is an excellent glue Pokemon, but it has various limitations that make it not worth S Rank. Easy to wear down is pretty true in all my experience. Generally, the things it is supposed to check, it can only switch into a max of two or three times. Combined with how much it's supposed to check, it's rather easily worn down. Pain Split is very unreliable, as when stuff is at low health it's just not good. Hydro Pump misses a little too often, enabling things weak to it to stall you out of them (I'm looking at you Gliscor). Volt Switch just isn't powerful enough of an Electric STAB, though I don't debate its utility and that it's not used for the power, but the point still stands -- it doesn't do enough to Water-types. These limitations mean it just isn't S Rank.

In what sense is Rotom-W easy to wear down? True, it has limited switch ins and no reliable recovery, but its bulk, typing, ability, and movepool basically guarantee that you get off a burn or gain momentum at least once, if not several times per match, which can easily change the outcome. I think this is what Branflakes means when he says that Rotom-W has "very little opportunity cost". The crippling effects of burns and losing momentum are not to be downplayed.

Rotom-W basically has no real switch ins that aren't crippled by a burn or can't be volt switched on. Even if you have dedicated burn absorbers such as AV Conk or natural cure grass types, it's just another opportunity for Rotom-W to gain free momentum. You say Gliscor can stall out its hydro pumps, but the issue there is actually getting it in safely first. You can't risk it going for hydro pump on the switch, so you're forced into something else that will likely just get volt switched on or possibly burned. Wearing it down simply isn't as trivial as you're making it out to be unless your opponent is repeatedly switching it into Lando-T's u-turns or something... in that case your opponent really needs to rethink their strategy.

I also don't understand what you mean by volt switch being too weak. I think it's sufficiently powerful, as it forces mons like Jellicent and Mandibuzz to immediately recover if they want to stay in, and in that case they're still losing momentum anyway, so it really doesn't put the Rotom player in an unfavorable position at all.

Rotom-W is a momentum machine, just like Genesect. Given a free turn, it can always put your opponent in a predicament. These free turns aren't even hard to find, as Rotom-W can be brought in after a revenge kill or any sort of volt-turning, not just checking mons like Talonflame who will eventually wear you down.

With that said, I believe Rotom-W should be S rank in viability, as it falls under "Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns")." It is simply one of the best pivots in the entire metagame, and also objectively the best will-o-wisp user in the metagame, sporting fantastic bulk with absolutely no glaring flaws. There's a reason it's topping the usage charts right now, and it's because of how ridiculously safe of a pick it is. Who wouldn't want to use a pokemon that gives you free burns and momentum with almost no prediction involved? Rotom-W is an excellent standalone pokemon that does not require any support (hell, it is the support) and practically has zero opportunity cost. I don't see how it isn't S rank material.

 

[Nintendan]

Wall of text

While somewhat inexperienced, I think I'll stil put something forward here and say I agree on this (Rotom-W going to S).
Rotom-W stops a surprising amount of Pokémon dead in their tracks. Most importantly it can scare off or severely hurt many strong Pokés in the current meta. It resists both of Talonflame's STAB moves and can hit it back with any of it's own STAB moves for super effective damage. Scizor has always been a strong Pokémon and cannot do much to a Rotom-W. Assuming the Scizor isn't running any Speed EVs or Scarf (which is pretty rare) he can't do much. Bullet Punch is comletely eaten up by the 4x resistance and then becomes useless after being burned from a Will-o-Wisp. It's very risky for a Physical Aegislash to try to play with King's Shield because WoW goes right through it. There are many others I could go on with that Rotom-W can just burn or eat up an attack and fire something back at it.
Additionally, one of my favourite things about Rotom-W and the reason I believe it is so strong is it's typing.
Water/Electric with Levitate leaves Rotom-W with one weakness that is rarely used offensively: Grass. Yes, there is Mega Venusaur but outside of that, there doesn't seem to be much that can hit it for Super Effective damage. Pair this with some amazing 107 defenses and you have a Pokemon that can take almost any hit thrown at it. Mold Breaker Excadrill does outspeed it and has enough power to destroy it with an Earthquake but using this 1 example/Poké (although very popular) is too specific to give Rotom-W a lower rating.
Rotom's movepool is also very impressive and because if it;s stats, it gives Rotom-W and extremely strong advantage that Charizard and Lucario have right now: flexibility, versatility and unpredictability.
There are some common Rotom-W sets used obviously but how can you be so sure? Is it a defensive Dual Screener? Resto Chesto? Scarfed with Trick? Bulky WoW-er? Specs to deal some unexpected damage? It can be difficult to tell until it reveals something.
With some pretty good coverage via Hydro Pump and TBolt/Volt Switch, Rotom-W can't be completely walled by some Pokémon, though Mega Venusaur and a correct switch into a Mold Breaker Excadrill will scare it off, but these can easily be dealt with in your 5 other slots. One thing I've used myself that I'd like to mention here is how Venusaur isn't much of a problem if you pair Rotom-W with Scizor. These two are known for being put together for their great synergy with each other and Venusaur being an absolute beast of a Pokémon now only makes it better as he has a good matchup against Rotom-W. If you predict Venusaur is coming in, simply Volt Switch out and go into your Scizor. Venusaur has little to do against a Scizor and Scizor will eat up anything thrown at it. Giga Drain? 4x resist. Earthquake? High defense/bulk. Sludge Bomb? I'm Steel bro. This leads to to the last point I want to make about Rotom-W and why it's just so damn good: it can gain momentum with Volt Switch.
Not many Pokémon can do this effectively or even gain access to the move. On top of all these stats, sets and it's amazing typing not to mention Abilty, Rotom-W gains Volt Switch allowing it to easily get something going on your team putting you that one step ahead.
Rotom-W has just so much going for it I really struggle to see why you wouldn't run especially when, as said earlier, he can check some of the most popular and biggest threats in the metagame. Rotom-W just brings so much to a team that you gotta have a damned good reason not to be running this beast of a Poké.

...crap I wrote that much. Always happens when I say "I won't type much" T_T

 

[Monte Cristo]

I do understand what you are saying, but many of the speedier pokemon are special attackers, which Gardevoir can take, any Flash Cannons and shadow balls. As I said before, it DOES loose to some pokemon, but nothing under the A rank. I am happy to see Gardevoir in B+, but as by the definition of A rank "Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently." I think it falls into that definition perfectly, as it does not have any flaws that pokemon like Gengar or the Lati@s don't have, and is only weak to Steel, Poison, and Ghost, and depending on if you use Focus Blast or Shadow Ball on her, all can be countered with coverage moves. Again, the major threats are Talonflame and Aeiglash's speed priorities, along with Mega Lucario and Scizor's bullet punches. I'm not saying Gardevoir is bulky, but that it can take two physical, and several special hits, and one could argue a 252HP/4Def/252SpA+ is also a viable EV spread, and makes it powerful enough to take enough hits to do massive damage to a team.

BEST CASE:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 320-377 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 272-320 (80 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 284-336 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 348-411 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 363-427 (106.7 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 268-316 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 169-201 (49.7 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 228-270 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
etc.

and that's assuming garde has the best spread to get smacked around with, this also means your CM set will be getting outsped by tons more pokemon, say banded genesect overall this is just being very generous to garde and it STILL looks bad, come on.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I do understand what you are saying, but many of the speedier pokemon are special attackers, which Gardevoir can take, any Flash Cannons and shadow balls.

It is not anywhere near bulky, even on the special side. Most special attackers 2HKO after Rocks.

Calcs With Max HP

Starting off with your Flash Cannon claim. The only user of that in OU is Mega Luke...
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 284-336 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 316-372 (92.9 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, that didn't work out too well.

As for Gengar, a very potent mon.
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-270 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It cannot switch in.

How about CharYzard?
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Nope, completely loses out here. Tbolt doesn't kill ZardY.

And then there's Aegislash
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 246-290 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Woops, 2HKO where a simple Ball+Sneak will finish it off.

Let's drop off some lesser threats, offensive prowess wise.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 153-181 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
How about that, Greninja 2HKOs after Stealth Rocks even with his poor 104 SpA

How about Keldeo, can it switch in?
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 138-163 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Only if you like to live on the edge.

Let's see how it fares against other special B ranks

Zapdos? A B rank?
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 142-169 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKOs with Tbolt after Rocks.

And how about Florges, which doesn't even run offensive EVs?
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 87-103 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
It uses Gardevoir as Calm Mind bait.

Mega Alakazam can only hit it with Non-STAB SE. That should make a difference, right?
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 170-200 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Apparently not!

Let's truly scratch the bottom here and go for Special Mega Absol
252 SpA Mega Absol Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 93-111 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
MegaVoir can check it, it cannot counter it. And this is Special Mega-Absol

Nope, MGardevoir is a B- in my book. It loses out to the common B rank threats, holds no real merits over the others.

 

[Swampertz]

It is not anywhere near bulky, even on the special side. Most special attackers 2HKO after Rocks.

Calcs With Max HP

Starting off with your Flash Cannon claim. The only user of that in OU is Mega Luke...
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 284-336 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 316-372 (92.9 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yeah, that didn't work out too well.

As for Gengar, a very potent mon.
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 228-270 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It cannot switch in.

How about CharYzard?
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir in Sun: 241-285 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Nope, completely loses out here. Tbolt doesn't kill ZardY.

And then there's Aegislash
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 246-290 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Woops, 2HKO where a simple Ball+Sneak will finish it off.

Let's drop off some lesser threats, offensive prowess wise.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 153-181 (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
How about that, Greninja 2HKOs after Stealth Rocks even with his poor 104 SpA

How about Keldeo, can it switch in?
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 138-163 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Only if you like to live on the edge.

Let's see how it fares against other special B ranks

Zapdos? A B rank?
252 SpA Life Orb Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 142-169 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
2HKOs with Tbolt after Rocks.

And how about Florges, which doesn't even run offensive EVs?
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 87-103 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
It uses Gardevoir as Calm Mind bait.

Mega Alakazam can only hit it with Non-STAB SE. That should make a difference, right?
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 170-200 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Apparently not!

Let's truly scratch the bottom here and go for Special Mega Absol
252 SpA Mega Absol Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 93-111 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 79.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
MegaVoir can check it, it cannot counter it. And this is Special Mega-Absol

Nope, MGardevoir is a B- in my book. It loses out to the common B rank threats, holds no real merits over the others.

All valid points, but with STAB Hyper Voice and even 1 calm mind Gardevoir does not need a second turn. Yes, it may only be able to kill 1-3 pokemon, but it can still defeat a lot of Pokemon. B+ or A from what I've seen in battle and through calculations. Also remember that Gardevoir often gets the chance to pull off at least one Calm Mind.