Whether it's the swagplay that makes it good or the dual screens that make it good, we can all agree it deserves a higher score then a B-? Right? Everyone? xD I personally don't care which set is particularly better, even though swagplay, for me, was a bit of trouble compared to screens which espeon can normally get up without a problem + has magic bounce. But the fact people keep arguing about which set is better just goes to show its unpredictability and versatility, on top of lesser used moves like torment, toxic, switcheroo, spikes, and magic room. If it had disable/encore it would be truly terrifying. Vote for B+ still stands.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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One thing that I must have missed, and I want to make clear on. What exactly divides the line between -/neutral/+ in a tier?
Why is a mon A+ instead of A, or another B- instead of B?
Why is a mon A+ instead of A, or another B- instead of B?
I would assume it's the pokemon that are in the tier, but are generally a bit better/worse than the other pokemon in the tier.
A couple of points about SwagKey:
It does not automatically come in to battle with Swagger + Twave conveniently set up for it.
Turn One: Klefki uses Swagger. The opponent has a 50/50 chance of outright KOing Klefki, and it will have accomplished nothing.
Turn Two: Klefki uses Twave. The opponent has a 37.5% shot at KOing and Klefki before getting a sub up, and it will have accomplished nothing.
Turn Three: Klefki uses Substitute.
Only once you've got status up + a Sub are you in any kind of safety. Klefki requires setup just like any Swords Dance sweeper. And, because of it's relatively low bulk and Swaggers' nasty side effect, this makes it vulnerable during setup. I know the above scenario isn't perfectly accurate, as Klefki might come in on to a choiced dragon move or something (and have to switch, and then Key can get a Sub up etc...), but I just wanted to emphasize that A) Klefki needs to set-up and B) It's vulnerable during this period.
It's also worth pointing out that the best strategies in any meta tend not to rely overly on luck-based strategies. For top players, they can often obtain a better win ratio by abusing strategies which typically require more planning and thought, to put it incredibly vaguely.
Also, your screwed if you go up against one of those players that purposefully sets their Attack IVs to Zero for Special Attackers/ Walls that don't use physical moves.
It does not automatically come in to battle with Swagger + Twave conveniently set up for it.
Turn One: Klefki uses Swagger. The opponent has a 50/50 chance of outright KOing Klefki, and it will have accomplished nothing.
Turn Two: Klefki uses Twave. The opponent has a 37.5% shot at KOing and Klefki before getting a sub up, and it will have accomplished nothing.
Turn Three: Klefki uses Substitute.
Only once you've got status up + a Sub are you in any kind of safety. Klefki requires setup just like any Swords Dance sweeper. And, because of it's relatively low bulk and Swaggers' nasty side effect, this makes it vulnerable during setup. I know the above scenario isn't perfectly accurate, as Klefki might come in on to a choiced dragon move or something (and have to switch, and then Key can get a Sub up etc...), but I just wanted to emphasize that A) Klefki needs to set-up and B) It's vulnerable during this period.
It's also worth pointing out that the best strategies in any meta tend not to rely overly on luck-based strategies. For top players, they can often obtain a better win ratio by abusing strategies which typically require more planning and thought, to put it incredibly vaguely.
Also, your screwed if you go up against one of those players that purposefully sets their Attack IVs to Zero for Special Attackers/ Walls that don't use physical moves.
That's a bit subjective, but think of it as ways to distinguish within the tier itself and providing relevancy. Because each tier has criteria, a pokemon can fit the definition perfectly, making it +, or be relegated to the tier based on process of elimination and barely meeting the criteria, making it more -.
Snorlax: C - A shift in the meta with Ghost being the new Dragon in terms of offensive neutral coverage means Snorlax is one of the view viable Normal pokemon that can take Ghost hits, with Thick Fat and Assault Vest making him a great special sponge. However with unboosted attack, only Normal for STAB and poor Defense and Speed Snorlax is a very circumstantial slot on your team that many other pokemon could likely perform better in. Extremely niche and requires team support.
Crobat: C+ - Crobat has access to Defog and an extremely fast one at that. It's typing has many unique and useful resists like 4x resist to Fighting and Bug and Infiltrator means nothing behind Substitute or Screens is safe, able to Taunt or just wreck with Brave Bird. Crobat is a great scout but despite its speed Prankster users will always outspeed it and his damage output makes him only dangerous against very few threats. It has a few unique attributes to be very handy on many teams but I think enough pokemon surpass him that he should be really high C tier.
Haxorus: B - Access to Dragon Dance and Swords Dance and terrific attack make him a dangerous wall breaker and can potentially sweep too. Mold Breaker is a fantastic rare ability that makes him discernibly anti-meta to a degree. There are a few competing Dragons that offer similar strengths and entirely different ones but Haxorus is unique enough to stand out and fits well with many A tier pokemon that make great natural partners. B tier because he often requires some set up and help to capitalize on the mayhem.
I want to nominate Thundurus-T for B+/A since it is not on the list at all. It has nice typing with only two weaknesses, though one is rock unfortunately, giving it nice stab in thunderbolt and volt switch. It also has incredible base 145 special attack and decent base 101 speed, making it nice with specs for a scarf. It might not have prankster, but volt absorb is always nice to use for switching into a rotom or anything else using an electric type attack. Its move pool is not bad either, having access to moves like dark pulse and focus blast, providing nice coverage when combined with a good hidden power type, like ice.
B- is fine for Klefki right now. For a defensive/support Pokemon, it hardly checks anything, and with neither Taunt nor any offensive presence of its own, it invites a free switch to other defensive Pokemon that'll completely ignore it and set up their own game. I'd imagine that outside of the confusion shenanigans, most teams would want a Deoxys-S in its place, doing much of the same thing with less predictability. As a matter of fact, I still don't know what the correct response is when I see Deoxys-S in the preview.
Also, just to clear the air, Swagger + Foul Play is neither a new nor revolutionary strategy, and I doubt it holds much clout, if any, in Klefki's ranking.
Also, just to clear the air, Swagger + Foul Play is neither a new nor revolutionary strategy, and I doubt it holds much clout, if any, in Klefki's ranking.
I honestly don't believe the (-)Tiers should exist at all, since it just over complicates things. It's extremely subjective, and TBH just feels like we're putting pokemon there just to appease to fans of that pokemon instead of just dropping it a rank if it can't hang with the rest of the pack..
They're extra levels of tiers. B- is a bit up from C+, B from B-, B+ from B, etc. The idea is to provide a place for borderline cases and just extra tiers of classification.
For the record, my argument regarding Klefki for B has gone unnoticed. Aside from Prankster Spikes, Dual Screens, and Thunder Wave, Klefki also boasts Switcheroo, meaning it has the potential to screw over almost anything in the game (Mega-Pokemon immune to Thunder Wave are probably the safest Betsy against them). B- seems to fall a tad short for a Pokemon that can consistently provide this kind of disruption, and has the typing (and arguably bulk) to pull it off, unlike Galvantula.
I would like to discuss what rank Mega Ampharos would be. I think
Mega Ampharos is a B.
Mega Ampharos is a B.
Mega Ampharos sports great bulk, a good typing, immune to paralysis, doesn't mind burns, a titanic special attack stat and can effectively perform many offensive niches; although it is not particularly amazing at any one of its viable offensive niches, it does perform well at all of its options. It can be a bulky offensive pivot with 3 attacks+Heal Bell or Volt Switch, a RestTalk bully attacker, or a bulky late game sweeper with 3 attacks+Agility. All of its alternative sets are partially out classed by pokemon of the A or S rank but the fact that it can run so many different sets makes it very versatile and unpredictable and the 3 attacks+Heal Bell set is very unique and useful.
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Ding ding ding.
But still, this is based on viability. It's not like everything is getting ranked in it's own category. The list extremely elastic at the moment, and shouldn't be taken as fact this early into the meta.
As far as appeasing fans, it's hard to get your point across when calcs are ignored and
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Ok I don't even know what is going on atm but I'm going to break in with a Suggestion.
I'd like to move Zapdos to A. Zapdos is one of the few things that can comfortably check Special Mega Lucario. Its versatility is still as prominent as ever with the ability to defog and the ability to be a set up sweeper. Its bulk is quite something. The reason I think it should go A is because it is EXTREMELY usable in OU as it has the potential beat Crumbler Aegislash, walls Mega luke and a bunch of sp. attackers, and has a good speed stat. Your thoughts go here:
I'd like to move Zapdos to A. Zapdos is one of the few things that can comfortably check Special Mega Lucario. Its versatility is still as prominent as ever with the ability to defog and the ability to be a set up sweeper. Its bulk is quite something. The reason I think it should go A is because it is EXTREMELY usable in OU as it has the potential beat Crumbler Aegislash, walls Mega luke and a bunch of sp. attackers, and has a good speed stat. Your thoughts go here:
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I already broke it by tryin to start a discussion but no one followed up :(
But yeah, I agree. Zapdos is easily one of the best defoggers out there, of what seldom deffogers there are, and it's so anti-meta. Zapdos's versatility, utility, and just doing it all so well definately lets it deserve an A, imo.
If you post using your cell phone it can slightly increase your risk of cancer so yes in a way smogon can give you cancerlolwat
cancer obviously can be given through smogon posts right?
you manage to do an awfully good job of testing it, if it can be the posts in this thread will dwindle as more and more people die...lolwat
cancer obviously can be given through smogon posts right?
i nominate breloom for b rank at least. Despite the nerfs to spore and fighting types in general, breloom is still a mon to be feared. Being the best user of spore is no laughing matter and breloom can cripple many threats to a team simply through spore is noteworthy in itself. Its ability Technician powers up one of the stab priority atks in the game and with the buff to rock tomb can beat counters that try to switch in. Sash loom can beat counters like talonflame and charizard while life orb loom breaks through teams through high powered stab attacks. Even the rarely seen poison heal set still wreaks havoc on unprepared teams. With things like rotom-w and azumarill running around, breloom is a reliable pokemon that can check many water type threats. I believe access to spore and high powered attacks gives breloom a dangerous niche that is described in b rank and should be tiered as such.
breloom is still one of the only pokemon with access to spore which, despite the nerfs, can cripple many threats while threatening others with a priority attack rivaling the power of scizor's bullet punch. by utilizing said tools the pokemon may not be able to power through teams with sheer force, but can reward your prediction accordingly. bullet seed is capable of dealing 281.5 bp of dmg on switch in, few pokemon are capable of taking on such power. supposed flying counters do not appreciate a technician boosted rock tomb which is not only has the possibility of outright ohkoing many of em, but also slows them down so that our mushroom can proceed to attack once more. spore cripples slower walls that it can outspeed, or many threats that switch in to become sleep fodder, save the few grass types and overcoat users in the tier. and mach punch provides the powerful priority move to revenge kill or deal devestating blows to pokemon that lack resistance to it. now that i've finished, i have come to the realization that literally everything i just said is really nothing new. breloom has a very nice niche for many teams and should be ranked b at the least
I haven't met one Breloom that has gotten through more than one of my mons this gen. If I'm not running Trvenenant, which completely counters it, I've still got easy ways to take it down. Uninvested Air Slash from Togekiss OHKOs it and it is very slow as it is, not to mention how slow it is after Sticky Web. I'm not saying it's bad now, but it is most definitely not the same threat it was last gen, by any means. Bug Buzz gets around his Subs and Grass-types absorb his Spores. This was not the gen for Breloom to shine imo. Maybe Technician Breloom will stay high but I haven't felt threatened by any other Brelooms yet.
Mega Ampharos is an amazing slow pivot, and a decent Agility user. It can tank hits well, but comes with the opportunity cost of having to use the Mega slot on it. It can also be forced out by faster threats, since pretty much everything other than Ferrothorn and Forretress is faster. I'd say B- or C rank would be fine, although I have no objections to B.
Nominating mega aerodactyl for C- rank. I have not seen even one single person use it. What can it do: lead with sr and taunt, but its weak defenses compromise that. It can't suicide lead anymore. By mega evolving, it loses it's ability to spam head smash sans recoil. It doesn't have the tools to use its ability, other than head smash and crunch, maybe dragon claw and fire fang? Point is everything it can do is done better by sonething else and it has little versatility. C- or D+.
Oh and on mega ampharos, it is quite nice, but it's low sped is a bit of a letdown. B rank in my humble opinion.
Oh and on mega ampharos, it is quite nice, but it's low sped is a bit of a letdown. B rank in my humble opinion.
Mega Aerodactyl does not have low defenses. 80/ 85 / 95 are very acceptable and it also outspeeds many choice scarfers and can even clean house late game. Also, an SR lead is not how you use the thing. Heck, it is a choice scarfer for how it's designed but it doesn't get locked into a move. I actually quite like it and if I had to rank it, I'd say a B- at least.
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