Alert: Use Brick Break on Medicham. *Info inside*

[futuresuperstar]

I recently tried out Medicham in a battle. I had Hi Jump Kick, thinking that the rare miss did not justify using a much weaker attack in Brick Break. Boy, was I wrong.

The enemy used Protect, and I used Hi Jump Kick. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy protects, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take off over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy switched to Froslass. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy is a ghost-type, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy dug underground, flew up high, or plunged underwater. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy is immune to an attack for the turn, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy exploded or used any attack to where "there is no target ...". Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if "there is no target ...", you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

Understand that the actual percentages were based on my battle. I took over 75% damage when the enemy protected itself, and then I tried again. I thought to myself, "gee, it will not use Protect again, and Hi Jump Kick is super-effective." He switched to Froslass. Guess what? Froslass is immune to fighting-type attacks. I kept going and crashed. In two moves, without the opponent attacking a single time, I crippled my lead and, effectively, my team.

Obviously, I do not know if every situation truly takes away 70% of your health bar. Different situations, attack statistics, and whatnot may result in different damages done to oneself. But, know this: every single situation listed above results in you destroying yourself. Plus, ghosts are a common switch-in on Medicham -- not only is it immune to one of its STAB-attacks, but it also hits Medicham for super-effective damage. With a simple switch, you nearly kill yourself. Any lead scouting or hoping for a speed boost after Protect, you nearly kill yourself. Any Pokemon leaving the frame, you nearly kill yourself. And, this does not include the fact that you will already nearly kill yourself 1/10th of the time without any of these scenarios in play.

Yes, you lose base power. But, please, use Brick Break on Medicham. If you need to convince yourself, remember that at least Brick Break can kill screens, even against a ghost-type. Seriously, Hi Jump Kick is just not worth it. Any Pokemon with Protect, Gengar, Dusknoir, Froslass, Spiritomb, Mismagius, or anything else that avoids it will essentially get a free turn while you cripple yourself.

Use Brick Break on Medicham!

 

[Snorlacks]

I didn't even know people used high-jump kick anymore... there are so many better options nowadays. But I agree with every word of this post, though it is old news to me... if the opponent knows you have HJK, they will bait you with a 2x weak or 4x weak and switch to a ghost more often than not. However, it's a double-edged sword- you could turn that around and mindgame them, for even without super effective damage, most other medicham attacks could severely damage or ohko the switch-in ghost. Won't work against seasoned opponents or new battlers, but good against the run-of-the-mill encounter, I'd say.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I don't see giving up 25 base being worth the safety. Use Hi Jump Kick and take your chances. I mean, the whole point of Medicham is to hit as absurdly hard as possible. Using Brick Break Medicham is giving up a whole lot of power, to the point whereby you might as well just use a different fighter.

 

[futuresuperstar]

As far as I know, hitting a Pokemon using Protect with Hi Jump Kick did not damage you last generation, yet it does now. I could be wrong, though.

The problem is that Medicham does not have access to any other reliable STAB-moves. It does not get Close Combat, nor does it get Sky Uppercut. Your choices are between Force Palm, Brick Break, and Hi Jump Kick, essentially.

And, my main purpose was after reading the Medicham analysis. Hi Jump Kick is listed as a viable option, and I am trying to stress the following point.

No! Just no! =p

 

[Venetian Masque]

Yeah, I always felt incredibly paranoid whenever my Medicham would use High Jump Kick. It saved me from many close calls, but other times it completely crushed my chances.

Brick Break is a decent alternative, I would use it. Breaking screens is more helpful than it may sound for some people.

 

[Firestorm]

I found out about the Protect thing a while earlier when I was trying Protect on Umbreon. I really wish I knew earlier as Medicham ripped through two of my team before I sent out Umbreon.

 

[CardRaider]

If you need to convince yourself, remember that at least Brick Break can kill screens, even against a ghost-type.

Brick Break wouldn't break screens against Ghosts because you have to deal damage first.
Other than that, I agree with you 100%.

 

[Seph]

Why would you ever use any other fighter if medicham had CC? It's like AA said, medicham's purpose is to hit as hard as it can. With that in mind, I'm sorry you had one bad experience with HJK medicham, but that doesn't mean brick break is better on it. What would be the point in using a pokemon with a 75 base stab with 480 attack when you could use something with 383 attack but with a 120 base stab? HJK is the only thing medicham has to even compete with the other pokes that get close combat. The point of a CB'er and Cscarf'er is ruined if you cannot 1/2hko things you normally could.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Brick Break wouldn't break screens against Ghosts because you have to deal damage first.
Other than that, I agree with you 100%.

Actually, that is false. You break the screen and deal no damage. Tested this thoroughly. The animation shows you destroy the screen, and subsequently, it says that the enemy is not affected by it.

 

[Great Sage]

Actually, BB does break screens against Ghosts, because it breaks screens before anything happens. Also, I'd still go with HJK; note that 3 out of the 4 circumstances you mentioned are incredibly rare in competitive play.

 

[CardRaider]

Actually, that is false. You break the screen and deal no damage. Tested this thoroughly. The animation shows you destroy the screen, and subsequently, it says that the enemy is not affected by it.

My bad lol.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Why would you ever use any other fighter if medicham had CC? It's like AA said, medicham's purpose is to hit as hard as it can. With that in mind, I'm sorry you had one bad experience with HJK medicham, but that doesn't mean brick break is better on it. What would be the point in using a pokemon with a 75 base stab with 480 attack when you could use something with 383 attack but with a 120 base stab? HJK is the only thing medicham has to even compete with the other pokes that get close combat. The point of a CB'er and Cscarf'er is ruined if you cannot 1/2hko things you normally could.

The main thing that separates Medicham from other Close Combat-users its its diverse move-pool. It can use Double-Edge, Psycho Cut, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, ThunderPunch, Brick Break / Hi Jump Kick / Force Palm / Focus Punch, STAB'd Endureaversal, Return, Facade, STAB'd Drain Punch, Rock Slide, Poison Jab, and even Bulk Up. Even the standard of Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Psycho Cut, and Hi Jump Kick / Brick Break hits 12/17 types with super effective damage, making it a stronger Electivire with the ability to roast almost every threat in the game -- Gengar, Gyarados, Salamence, Garchomp, Heracross, Dragonite, Weavile, Tyranitar, etc. The only times it will really even need to use its STAB-fighting-move is against things like Weavile, Tyranitar, and Heatran. Of those, Brick Break is still a OHKO on Weavile and Tyranitar, and it normally scares away Heatran, anyway.

The added power is not very necessary and only comes in handy on a regular basis against things that you cannot hit super-effectively. In such cases, Psycho Cut is usually a safer bet, anyway, as no dark-type will switch in fearing a fighting move. Besides, most of the time, a ghost-type will come in to ruin your day. It is not just one bad experience. It is the way it is. If the opposing team has a ghost-type, it *will* switch in. Not only will it laugh at Hi Jump Kick, it also is one of the few things that can hit Medicham for super-effective damage (Ghost, Flying). Flying-types normally will not switch in on something that normally caries ThunderPunch and / or Ice Punch coming off of a 480 attack statistic.

There are nearly zero cases where that extra 25 base power is absolutely needed, and conversely numerous cases where a single wrong prediction means you DIE. Most wrong predictions mean "damn, now I have to switch out." Or, perhaps, "damn, I could have hit that thing harder if I used a different move." Rarely is there a case where a wrong prediction of one single move means "haha, whoops, really, I did that on purpose, you needed a handicap, yo."

Edit: This was assuming Choice Scarf.

 

[Steelicks]

well im not surprised by some of the info contained in the first post, but that said, i still think it was undiscovered, nonetheless

 

[futuresuperstar]

25% is actually huge. And for an attempt to 2hko, that's in a way a 50% difference that you are losing out of it. The argument u just stated has no moves that can even compare to a 100 base stab. As for the other pokes that have close combat, they have other attacks too. Don't ignore those facts as well.

I understand that the loss is huge, but when you consider just what exactly you are hitting with it, it does not become nearly as huge. Other Pokemon with Close Combat -- even Heracross -- have move-pools that do not vary nearly as much. Megahorn, Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Pursuit / Night Slash / Shadow Claw is walled by a lot more in the game. Duh, it has a stronger attack pool.

 

[Seph]

I suppose this is true. But I still believe that brick break isn't really the right call. Oh well, I don't really want to argue about this anymore, it's rather late. (also I deleted that post because I didn't want to start any arguments lol)

 

[futuresuperstar]

Heh, it's okay, don't worry, man. I just wish Medicham frickin' got Close Combat, or at least Cross Chop.

 

[Peterko]

from the research topic

HI JUMP KICK and JUMP KICK info

recoil = 1/2 of the damage you would have done to the foe if you hit it, it even considers CHs as I´ve seen in one of my tests
- the damage the recoil is derived from can´t exceed foe´s max HP
- the damage ignores foe´s remaining HP, example: snorlax has 9hp, jump kick would do 48-56 damage, recoil is not 4, but at least 24

I know that it is a big risk, but reckless HJK has 120 base power (on hitmonlee), 100 power on medicham, compared to 75 brick break that´s a lot of BP...high risk, high return

 

[KevlarX290]

Doesn't it have 100 base power?

 

[Mekkah]

The Explosion scenario is extremely unlikely to matter. If your Medicham manages to come through an Explosion unscathed while using Hi Jump Kick against me, I think I'll just report you for sharking.

 

[adman2]

I recently tried out Medicham in a battle. I had Hi Jump Kick, thinking that the rare miss did not justify using a much weaker attack in Brick Break. Boy, was I wrong.

The enemy used Protect, and I used Hi Jump Kick. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy protects, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take off over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy switched to Froslass. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy is a ghost-type, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy dug underground, flew up high, or plunged underwater. Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if the enemy is immune to an attack for the turn, and you use Hi Jump Kick, you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

The enemy exploded or used any attack to where "there is no target ...". Guess what? In Diamond and Pearl, if "there is no target ...", you will receive the "missing" damage and take over 70% of your health bar.

Understand that the actual percentages were based on my battle. I took over 75% damage when the enemy protected itself, and then I tried again. I thought to myself, "gee, it will not use Protect again, and Hi Jump Kick is super-effective." He switched to Froslass. Guess what? Froslass is immune to fighting-type attacks. I kept going and crashed. In two moves, without the opponent attacking a single time, I crippled my lead and, effectively, my team.

Obviously, I do not know if every situation truly takes away 70% of your health bar. Different situations, attack statistics, and whatnot may result in different damages done to oneself. But, know this: every single situation listed above results in you destroying yourself. Plus, ghosts are a common switch-in on Medicham -- not only is it immune to one of its STAB-attacks, but it also hits Medicham for super-effective damage. With a simple switch, you nearly kill yourself. Any lead scouting or hoping for a speed boost after Protect, you nearly kill yourself. Any Pokemon leaving the frame, you nearly kill yourself. And, this does not include the fact that you will already nearly kill yourself 1/10th of the time without any of these scenarios in play.

Yes, you lose base power. But, please, use Brick Break on Medicham. If you need to convince yourself, remember that at least Brick Break can kill screens, even against a ghost-type. Seriously, Hi Jump Kick is just not worth it. Any Pokemon with Protect, Gengar, Dusknoir, Froslass, Spiritomb, Mismagius, or anything else that avoids it will essentially get a free turn while you cripple yourself.

Use Brick Break on Medicham!

I've had some extremely bad experiences while using Hi Jump Kick in the Battle Tower, so I'll agree with you.


By the way, there is a Battle CD in XD where you have to use Protect against a Medicham's Hi Jump Kick so it can KO itself, so it must have worked in the 3rd gen as well.

 

[Great Sage]

The Battle CDs are screwy. One of them had a Swords Dance Machamp, and on another, you had to baton pass a Mind Reader effect to one of your other Pokemon.

 

[Electivilug]

Adman, the battle tower, due to their hax with Double Team, most non 100% accuracy moves are ineffective there. Using High Jump Kick in there with all those Double Teams going on is suicide.
Besides, I agree with Seph, for one reason alone-if you do as much as poke Medicham, it dies horridly. It explodes when you tickle it, gets blown across the arena from a Caterpie String Shot, and gets a big hole in its gut through tackle. When you die just like that, why the bloodly hell would you take Brick Break? You're acting like Medicham can take a hit. It can't. When you factor that in, High Jump Kick is the perfect choice- who cares you get damaged? You die horridly if someone hits you, anyway!

 

[adman2]

Adman, the battle tower, due to their hax with Double Team, most non 100% accuracy moves are ineffective there. Using High Jump Kick in there with all those Double Teams going on is suicide.
Besides, I agree with Seph, for one reason alone-if you do as much as poke Medicham, it dies horridly. It explodes when you tickle it, gets blown across the arena from a Caterpie String Shot, and gets a big hole in its gut through tackle. When you die just like that, why the bloodly hell would you take Brick Break? You're acting like Medicham can take a hit. It can't. When you factor that in, High Jump Kick is the perfect choice- who cares you get damaged? You die horridly if someone hits you, anyway!

The problem is, once your opponent knows you have it, they WILL find a way to screw you over with it. You don't run the risk of Ghosts switching in if you have Brick Break (at least you can switch out).

 

[Electivilug]

The problem is, once your opponent knows you have it, they WILL find a way to screw you over with it. You don't run the risk of Ghosts switching in if you have Brick Break (at least you can switch out).

How is Brick Break better than Hi-Jump Kick when your opponent sends out a ghost besides the recoil? Like I said, Medicham is dead anyway if the opponent merely pokes it. Whether you use Brick Break or Hi-Jump Kick, opponents wall you to hell if you're using a Choice Scarf, and you're likely going to have to switch out to avoid getting either walled or slaughtered by them. Besides, I wouldn't run Medicham in the tower, due to the "OMG DON'T POKE ME" factor. I would run Medicham, however, in a competitive battle where I can scout out their team easily (hopefully), determine whether they have a Poke that can wall him, and set him from his leash to slaughter. Brick Break is inferior to Hi-Jump Kick when you factor in the factor that causes him to die easily.

 

[Seph]

You dont have to keep using hi jump kick adman2. As your opponent catches on, you have to just change your attacks. And most teams actually lack a ghost/pokemon with protect btw. Also, medicham can sort of take a hit. It isn't 1hkod by everything like your making it seem like Electivilug.