I see, I guess that makes sense. I don't really get why people run Cosmic Power over Calm Mind (or why people really even use Clefable, it's not THAT great), but Krookodile would hard counter that indeed.
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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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Because calm mind sets get wrecked by physical steel moves :P I agree it's not that great as a set up sweeper as it's niche has been seen in previous gens by sigilyph hence teams should be able to beat it anyway. I use Clefable on my stall team but as a cleric not a cosmic power sweeper as fairy is a very useful defensive typing in gen 6 and with magic guard (albeit not recommended on a cleric clefable).
Hey guys, is there any guides you would suggest for getting acquainted with Stall as a playstyle, but also basic teambuilding structure, ideas, etc.? I'm gonna look at Smogon's base site to see what I can find, but I'd like to know if there's other sites that have some good insight or whatever as well, just so I can avoid wasting everyone's time with stupid questions all day long. Thanks.
On the main PS server, there is a chatroom called "OU", you'll find many good stall players in here that will be willing to help out too.
Has anyone had any success with Wrap Milotic (trapping move buff)? I think she should do pretty well but you never really know until it's been tested in a battle...
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue21/defense - 5th gen guide to stall. For the most part, it still applies to this generation.
On the subject of Gliscor, the reason I don't think it's that great on stall is because it runs SubProtect. For similar reasons that Aj stated, I feel SubProtect tries to do too much on it's own by attempting to outstall everything. Gliscor can be excellent on stall, but I think it has to harken back to it's old Stallbreaker days from two gens ago. Taunt/U-turn/Earthquake/Roost. I don't know what the EV spread should be though (Gliscor ran a lot of speed back then). There's also the issue that Gliscor would no longer be a switch-in to Mega Lucario, but then again Mega Lucario is so unpredictable that Gliscor is never really a safe switch to begin with (is it physical or special?). I just think it's hilarious that I can switch in Skarm and get a free layer of Spikes this gen against Gliscor when I couldn't do that in DPP because Gliscor commonly carried Taunt. A fast enough Gliscor would outrun and Taunt a Defog Mandibuzz as well fwiw. But, people have had success with SubProtect Gliscor on stall so what do I know? :P
Clefable is amazing on stall, but it's best used as a cleric. I don't think Clefable should attempt any type of sweep on stall, even if it is possible. I honestly haven't lost to a single Cosmic Power/Stored Power/Charge Beam Clefable yet this gen, but I still keep my fingers crossed (they weren't used very well). Unaware has been the way to go because it stops (depending on the EV spread): TG Manaphy, SD Garchomp, NP Thundurus, BD Azumarill, basically any dangerous set-up sweeper in OU that isn't a Steel type.
I do agree that stall should function as a unit, but there needs to be some sort of self-sufficiency IMO as far as recovery goes. Using 'mons that completely rely on another WishPasser for any sort of recovery is far too predictable in a real game that's in a tournament setting. And in those settings vs. a good offensive team, it doesn't really matter whether the WishPasser and the 'mon with no recovery have good synergy or not. But, I think we are all saying the same thing just in a different way.
Also, keep in mind Perish Song does function as a pseudo-phaze since they have to switch in 3 turns. Not quite as effective as a hard Roar/Whirlwind, but like others have said, it's a great endgamer since it stops last mon setups that usually have (had?) recovery. It's worthy of consideration. The problem is distribution: the only OU viable mon for the past several generations that made good, consistent use of Perish Song is Celebi.
Thanks for the guide link, I really appreciate it.
On Gliscor running older sets, what sort of things would he need to outspeed to make the speed investment worth it, but allow him to run decent defense investment? 144 in speed lets you outspeed Adamant Gyarados with max speed, but I don't know how important that would be(it also lets it outspeed Heatran, but I don't think that would switch into a Gliscor). 236Spe lets you outspeed max +spe Dnite, but then it'd probably just kill Gliscor, so I have no idea. I'm only sticking so hard on Gliscor because I really like everything about it, typing, sets, ability, etc. Plus the ability to status yourself with no drawback seems to be something that would be pretty useful on a stall team(although if you have a Cleric it might get messy to keep Poison Heal up).
Gliscor is more annoying than defensive, I was playing a balanced today with Gliscor, he forfeited 5 minutes later because he couldnt get rid of him without getting everything toxiced and as he broke my sub and switched out as I made another one, on the other hand I love playing against Gliscor because I always take his Toxic Orb and give it to something else(after actvating)
Personally I like to make my Gliscor faster than Rotom, being able to stall out their STAB move with substitute and force them out is really useful. It requires Jolly and 184 EVs. While I don't run a stall team myself, I've found that EV spread with the rest in HP/Def with a moveset of Earthquake/Knock Off/Substitute/Toxic is pretty good and has some utility. It plays a bit like SubToxic Tentacruel from last generation, only that the utility move you're using on free turns is Knock Off rather than Rapid Spin.
Gliscor is useless on stall teams, there's much better options and as stated before Gliscor isn't a stall pokemon it's just a pseudo stand-alone wall thrown onto teams that cant be bothered to check/counter multiple threats they just hope Gliscor can do the job instead. Against other stall teams it excels in being absolutely useless as any attempt to set up means you get whirlwinded/roar'd out and when all that's left is your Gliscor you have to forfeit or face the embarrassment of struggling to death.
As far as gliscor running taunt to stall-break... heatran and mandibuzz do it better with the bulk and resistances to back it up.
As far as gliscor running taunt to stall-break... heatran and mandibuzz do it better with the bulk and resistances to back it up.
This is a little harsh but yeah Gliscor isn't that great. The dual resistances and Toxic Heal are cool but any competent offensive team will just switch into a special attacker and proceed to wreck him. For a pure physical wall Hippowdon is generally better, plus Toxic Heal has pretty bad synergy with Clerics.
Honestly, Gliscor to me is an alternative Landorus. Its less bulky and powerful, but it trades that for reliable recovery. Both have their postives and negatives and either is a fair Pokemon considering the team.
Although if using either, you have to question why not use Hippowdon.
Although if using either, you have to question why not use Hippowdon.
I wouldn't say they're both necessarily better than Stallbreaker Gliscor. I honestly think Taunt Heatran is terrible in this meta. No recovery outside of Leftovers, weaknesses that are just as common as Gliscor's and much slower than Gliscor too? No thanks :/ . I'll stick to SpD SR Heatran. Taunt Heatran seems like it works better on more bulky offense teams, but that's just theorymon. Mandibuzz would be Gliscor's real competition for a stallbreaker since it arguably has a better moveset (Gliscor does have U-turn which is pretty cool for gaining/not losing momentum, even on stall.). Gliscor also isn't weak to SR, unlike Mandibuzz who basically takes it as an opportunity cost every time it comes in to Defog. But, I guess you can argue that for other fliers that setup or whatever. I do agree with other arguments though. Hippowdon is much more dynamic IMO when you compare them as bulky Ground types and Poison Heal doesn't mix with clerics at all. You'd have to try and get away with running stall without a cleric if you plan to run Gliscor. Even if you are SubProtect, the fact that you have to waste a turn to set up Toxic Orb again after a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy when you could be doing something else seems annoying to me.
Not saying Gliscor is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Just saying it has other options that are usable on stall other than SubProtect.
So I think I've mentioned it before, but I really don't think enough people are giving love to Chesnaught. He has fantastic synergy with Heatran, Gyarados, Jellicent, Quagsire and other ghosts, etc. Thanks to bulletproof he walls most Gengars not running Dazzling Gleam or Sludge wave over Sludge Bomb (which is very uncommon) fairly handily. He also resists Edgequake, threatens Blissey, sets up on Mega Venusaur, wounds physical Lucario, laughs at Foul Play and switches into SR like a champ, he has several ways to recover and is an all around impenetrable tank with stats comparable to Gourgeist. While Mega-Venusaur has thick fat and a lot more bulk, Chesnaught is the best scout in the game with spiky shield and is one of the most reliable spike setters, I'd call him one of best defensive grass pokemon in the game right now, behind M-Venusaur but in the same league as Amoongus and Tangrowth. I'm running him in a F/W/G core with Sleeptalk Gyarados and Heatran and I've gone 7-0 easily so far (though I'll admit I bum around the 1400-1600 tier because I toy around a lot and don't often use alts).
((Supporting them are Umbreon, Cofagrigus and Skarmory, who are okay but I think I could do better, I mostly put the first two in the team to experiment. Honestly Cof is only in there still because he's a good WoW'er and can tank a few hits Rotom can't, but I'll probably end up replacing him with Rotom. I will say that Umbreon makes a FANTASTIC cleric though, and Synchronize/Foul Play are a really sweet combination in a Tai Chi 'turn the opponents force against them' way. If anyone has suggestions on these three I'd like to hear it.))
Back on topic, this brings me to an interesting question: Are there any pokemon left which work well in stall which we haven't really been talking about?
Fake Edit: Yeah don't ever use Taunt Heatran, Heatran has 4MSS pretty bad already and he's much better running Lava Plume, Protect, Roar, Toxic, SR, Ancient Power, Flash Cannon, Earth Power, etc, basically anything over taunt. He's too slow to be a particularly effective user, and his lack of recovery makes him too frail to afford to waste a turn doing something sub-optimal.
((Supporting them are Umbreon, Cofagrigus and Skarmory, who are okay but I think I could do better, I mostly put the first two in the team to experiment. Honestly Cof is only in there still because he's a good WoW'er and can tank a few hits Rotom can't, but I'll probably end up replacing him with Rotom. I will say that Umbreon makes a FANTASTIC cleric though, and Synchronize/Foul Play are a really sweet combination in a Tai Chi 'turn the opponents force against them' way. If anyone has suggestions on these three I'd like to hear it.))
Back on topic, this brings me to an interesting question: Are there any pokemon left which work well in stall which we haven't really been talking about?
Fake Edit: Yeah don't ever use Taunt Heatran, Heatran has 4MSS pretty bad already and he's much better running Lava Plume, Protect, Roar, Toxic, SR, Ancient Power, Flash Cannon, Earth Power, etc, basically anything over taunt. He's too slow to be a particularly effective user, and his lack of recovery makes him too frail to afford to waste a turn doing something sub-optimal.
I know I have mentioned this a few times before in this thread in some way or another, but this is how I feel that most good stall teams end up looking like. I have looked through some other stall teams mentioned around and in the RMT forum, and the good one's follow this formula.
1. Primary Special Wall: All the teams I have seen have this feature, whether it be Blissey and Chansey or Clefable. It just seems necessary for the team's defensive backbone. I know that one can run a stall team without this kind of Pokemon in theory, checking special attackers through other Pokemon throughout the team, but I haven't seen that this generation yet.
2. Genesect Counter: As I just noted, most teams have a special wall like Blissey / Chansey or Clefable, while they are great walls, they fail to wall the special attacking monster that is Genesect. Most of the time this leads something like Heatran an automatic choice, however as Ajwf as demonstrated, other Genesect checks like Charizard-X are also viable in this slot.
3. Grass-type: Between their ability to check Pokemon like Breloom, Azumarill, Keldeo, a variety of Fighting-types, and ability to take on Rotom-W over and over again, Grass-types like Venusaur and Amoonguss pretty much always find their way onto stall teams this generation. Celebi and Roserade work similarly, but I haven't seen them used effectively yet. Gougeist, Trevant, and Ferrothorn all fill this niche but have a weakness to some of the Pokemon mentioned initially. I have seen a few stall teams without a Grass-type, but honestly they seem to be the exception rather than the norm.
4. Pinsir / Mamoswine counter: These 2 Pokemon have the smallest gap of counters as far as common physical threats go. The most common go to answer is Skarmory, but Rotom-W can work to similar effect. This Pokemon does not have to cover both of them at once, something that only checks one like Zapdos or Slowbro are fine, however they will have a weakness to one of these which will need to be covered in the next Pokemon.
5. A physical wall or check of some sort: Pretty much whatever you are not covering in the last Pokemon physical, should be covered here. It isn't going to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be, you have 1 more slot, but they should in a way complement each other and the Grass-type, covering most physical Pokemon at this stage. This Pokemon will vary depending on the team and what is needed, however Pokemon like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Landorus-T are decent options.
6. Miscellaneous: Check / Glue / Spinner / Ect: This will usually the most varying Pokemon. It is basically what your team needs, whatever it is, it will usually tie up any lose Pokemon you have as threats, and make the team function better as a whole.
1. Primary Special Wall: All the teams I have seen have this feature, whether it be Blissey and Chansey or Clefable. It just seems necessary for the team's defensive backbone. I know that one can run a stall team without this kind of Pokemon in theory, checking special attackers through other Pokemon throughout the team, but I haven't seen that this generation yet.
2. Genesect Counter: As I just noted, most teams have a special wall like Blissey / Chansey or Clefable, while they are great walls, they fail to wall the special attacking monster that is Genesect. Most of the time this leads something like Heatran an automatic choice, however as Ajwf as demonstrated, other Genesect checks like Charizard-X are also viable in this slot.
3. Grass-type: Between their ability to check Pokemon like Breloom, Azumarill, Keldeo, a variety of Fighting-types, and ability to take on Rotom-W over and over again, Grass-types like Venusaur and Amoonguss pretty much always find their way onto stall teams this generation. Celebi and Roserade work similarly, but I haven't seen them used effectively yet. Gougeist, Trevant, and Ferrothorn all fill this niche but have a weakness to some of the Pokemon mentioned initially. I have seen a few stall teams without a Grass-type, but honestly they seem to be the exception rather than the norm.
4. Pinsir / Mamoswine counter: These 2 Pokemon have the smallest gap of counters as far as common physical threats go. The most common go to answer is Skarmory, but Rotom-W can work to similar effect. This Pokemon does not have to cover both of them at once, something that only checks one like Zapdos or Slowbro are fine, however they will have a weakness to one of these which will need to be covered in the next Pokemon.
5. A physical wall or check of some sort: Pretty much whatever you are not covering in the last Pokemon physical, should be covered here. It isn't going to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be, you have 1 more slot, but they should in a way complement each other and the Grass-type, covering most physical Pokemon at this stage. This Pokemon will vary depending on the team and what is needed, however Pokemon like Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Landorus-T are decent options.
6. Miscellaneous: Check / Glue / Spinner / Ect: This will usually the most varying Pokemon. It is basically what your team needs, whatever it is, it will usually tie up any lose Pokemon you have as threats, and make the team function better as a whole.
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Is it really smart to stay in on a Rotom-W at all even with Spe investment? Even a Scarfed Rotom-W will OHKO with Hydro Pump, so it's probably not worth the risk to stay in on one hoping to outspeed, unless you can be sure it's not Scarfed of course. Just a thought.
Also, what spread do you guys recommend for a M-Venusaur? I'd really like to run one, but I have no idea if I should mix the defenses or just max out one or the other. I've generally found that Grass types perform better as Special Walls, but that may just be my experience(most of which comes from using Ferrothorn).
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Venusaur (M) @ Venusaurite
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Here's my personal favorite spread. It gets you defenses of 364/350/303, which is plenty to wall most of OU. Here's a calc of standard Scarf Genesects U-turn:
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Mega Venusaur: 90-106 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
And physically based Genesect at +1 for that matter:
+1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Mega Venusaur: 109-130 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 36% chance to 3HKO
And that's if it gets the Atk boost, which it doesn't against this set so it would have to come in on something else to get the boost. That's some solid bulk, and you do solid damage in return:
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Genesect: 216-256 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As for special bulk it's still more than solid, even with the highest rolls Life Orb Greninja has no chance of 2HKO'ing:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Or offensive Heatran (on a balloon):
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 108 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 140-168 (38.4 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You can only put it to sleep or stall it out of Fire Blasts, but still. That's solid bulk.
This is definitely my staple on any stall team. Sleep Powder also proves invaluable, while Sludge Bomb spreads poison and hits reasonable hard. HP Fire stops Ferrothorn from setting up all over you.
Skarmory is a better physical wall due to its typing (since it is Earthquake immune and resists flying attacks from M-Pinsir). Having high speed is quite helpful too.
Hippowdon has ok uninvested special defenses and a naturally high HP stat. It is probably the best mixed wall in the game.
You can make that argument about a lot of pokemon. Scarf Rotom isn't very popular anyway, and it's not difficult to tell when it is scarfed. You outspeed a lot of other useful pokemon with that investment so it's not as if it's just for Rotom.
Is there a reason why I wouldn't run them both?
I sincerely ask this because when I test Chansey I do this, its an easy replacement over Hippowdon to avoid sand damage.
Testing it out atm, but by the calculations I've run Crobat should do very well on stall as it checks mega pinsir/heracross two very bulky threats and deals a tonne of damage to mega lucario too. Holding Black Sludge it has the potential to completely fuck up trick rotoms etc, it has useful 4x resistances to grass and fighting access to haze and taunt plus infiltrator means sub-mons are less of a threat to stall teams like the aforementioned mega heracross who can be devastating behind a sub. It also completely and utterly walls sub/protect/toxic/eq gliscor. It also does very well against mega venusaur. Though it's synergy may become a problem on teams.
Crobat is too frail to be used on stall. It has to be at full health to check all 3 Megas you mentioned which is quite difficult for it due to the Stealth Rock weakness. Even if it were at full health, it couldn't OHKO any of them and would be severely hurt back. Trick Room team also kill it because most of them are Psychic/Ghost/Dark and very bulky. They easily live through its BB and OHKO in return. And more importantly, anything Crobat can do, Skarmory can do better.
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