Clefable

[tehy]

I'm having serious issues with the Calm Mind set listed here.

Namely, why is Unaware slashed first, and why are Wish+Protect slashed over Softboiled+flamethrower?

If you've got Unaware, then your role should be more of a general tank; Calm Mind Clefable is most likely to be a win condition against a defensive team, especially in a lastmon situation, but with Unaware you can just Toxic it and have done. Plus, since it's now susceptible to Toxic and Burn, it can't Calm Mind on defensive Pokemon nearly as easily. You list one of the benefits as beating other Calm Minders...except, which ones? I haven't seen any Calm Minders in a long while;while Latias might have psyshock, it's also weak to Moonblast, and i haven't seen virtually any other Calm Minders this generation. Other than that, the only other reason is to have a stallbreak Cmer and an anti-setup/dragons tank simultaneously, but it's much worse at both because of it.

In the same vein, what's up with that set having Wish+Protect over Soft-Boiled+Flamethrower? Flamethrower lets you break past your best checks and counters, and is especially useful against more offensive teams. Meanwhile, Softboiled means that attacking you and then phasing you is not a viable means of stalling you out-this is important as hell because that might be a stall team's only way of touching Clefable.

I'd also recommend making that change on other sets, but that's more difficult to say, as their intent is more supportive.

also...
'Heatran is one of the easiest Pokemon to wear out, by virtue of Stealth Rock, Knock Off, so on and so forth...'

Are you high? Heatran is NOT easy to wear out. It's got nice passive recovery and is only normally weak to Stealth Rock, plus it has 5 quad-resistances and 2 immunities that it can frequently switch in on. While you CAN knock him off-and i do it with sableye often-since he's now neutral to it, most users of Knock off generally won't catch him with it.

 

[phantom]

Can you actually read the analysis before posting? Why is that so hard. Wish + Protect is slashed b/c Soft-boiled is illegal with unaware. The point with unaware is to prevent something else from setting up alongside you and power through you. The set is very passive and needs at least two or three boosts to be threatening, and in that time, something like Gyarados has enough bulk to take a hit and set up dragon dance. You don't want that. And as stated in the analysis, it plays defensively in the early stages of the match, in this case, unaware works better with a physically defensive spread.

Also I'm not the one who said that thing about heatran, you might want to quote the actual person who said that (even though you're still wrong).

 

[TSovereign]

i'm surprised that you didn't give the stored power set a full analysis. I've been experimenting with this set and i'm lovin' it

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Slow but steady sweeper</li>
<li>Magic Guard makes it a great pokemon to switch in on hazards and set up</li>
<li>Fairy typing was the best thing happen to Clefable, even though it replaced it's fighting weakness for a steel and poison, I believe resisting fighting types is more beneficial.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Prankster Pokemon</li>
<li>High Risk, Meh Reward, you'll find plenty of disconnects from players who either can't sufficiently KO Clefable before it uses Soft-Boiled or Stall Wars.</li>
<li>Clefable struggles with taking down other Tank Pokemon and probably other pokemon who already established that they're stalling pokemon will do a better job</li>
</ul>


[SET]
name: Cosmic Fairy
move 1: Cosmic Power
move 2: Soft-Boiled
move 3: Moonblast
move 4: Stored Power
nature: Bold or Calm
ability: Magic Guard
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 Def/ 252 Sp. Def (or 252 Sp. Atk)


[Checks and Counters]

<p>Inexperienced Goodra users or just Goodra will terrible movesets are still about to take about 3 to 4 Moonblasts before going down (if you're not running 252 Sp. Atk). Prankster Pokemon like Klefki can really frustrate you. (feel free to add more) some of the counters listed are not threats when applied to this set. Speed is still a factor, a lot of the listed checks and counters are faster than clefable. </p>

 

[tehy]

Can you actually read the analysis before posting? Why is that so hard. Wish + Protect is slashed b/c Soft-boiled is illegal with unaware. The point with unaware is to prevent something else from setting up alongside you and power through you. The set is very passive and needs at least two or three boosts to be threatening, and in that time, something like Gyarados has enough bulk to take a hit and set up dragon dance. You don't want that. And as stated in the analysis, it plays defensively in the early stages of the match, in this case, unaware works better with a physically defensive spread.

Also I'm not the one who said that thing about heatran, you might want to quote the actual person who said that (even though you're still wrong).

*shrugs* that's still not great reasoning in my opinion, especially since Flamethrower is so damn great on Clefable-trashing pretty much all of its best offensive checks hard. I get it that you're trying to be both an unaware wall and a late-game sweeper, but it's just not that great at the last part. If you really don't want it to be set up on, run Life Orb and Magic Guard-that'll make it pretty tough, although still possible.

I'm not wrong about heatran, although i guess i should have quoted the right guy.

 

[Chillarmy]

*shrugs* that's still not great reasoning in my opinion, especially since Flamethrower is so damn great on Clefable-trashing pretty much all of its best offensive checks hard. I get it that you're trying to be both an unaware wall and a late-game sweeper, but it's just not that great at the last part. If you really don't want it to be set up on, run Life Orb and Magic Guard-that'll make it pretty tough, although still possible.

Not to mention that there are few Pokemon capable of setting up alongside Clefable. Dragons never want to stay in (and usually can't OHKO Clefable at +2); Mega Luke nor Mega Pinsir are going to happily tank a +1 Flamethrower (the former can't even KO Clefable without Flash Cannon) and aren't going to risk a potential Thunder Wave; and the aforementioned Gyarados could be Mega Gyarados and can thus still win with a bit of prior damage on Clefable (or a single flinch from Waterfall). Unaware is best left for the defensive sets--you know, the sets that are supposed to be keeping boosting sweepers at bay--rather than placing limitations on the Pokemon Clefable will be able to overcome (i.e, CM NEEDS Flamethrower and immediate recovery).

 

[phantom]

You're not going to be staying in on Mega Pinsir or Mega Lucario b/c they can 2HKO the most physically defensive variants, so I don't get your reasoning here. Mega Pinsir isn't even OHKOed at +1 while the odds of Mega Luke surviving the same attack is in its favor. Also, why exactly would Mega gyarados set up alongside clefable when it's easily KOed at +1? That really makes no sense. It's like trying to set up Swords Dance with Talonflame when you're in on a Tyranitar. Moot points all around. Being able to always win the CM war and prevent many other weaker set up sweepers from annoying you is good enough reason. Furthermore, flamethrower is already slashed. I'd rather not take any more atrocious comments form the peanut gallery. I'll get this written up soon enough.

 

[Chillarmy]

Point is that they're the only setup sweepers ballsy enough to stay in on Clefable (Taunt + BU Talon can as well, but that doesn't need to boost to beat mono-Fairy Clefable). As you'd mentioned, Gyarados can DD while Clefable is setting up; at +1, it can Mega Evolve, tank the Moonblast, and 2HKO with Waterfall.

and CM wars? You mean with Psyshock Reuniclus, Latias, and CM + Rest Manaphy? Things that XY OU isn't particularly kind to? Next thing you're gonna tell me is that Jellicent absolutely needs to run Giga Drain because of Cloyster.

 

[phantom]

Swords Dance Talonflame, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Double-Dance Landorus-T, Belly Drum Azumarill, etc. They can all take an unboosted moonblast easily and devastate Clefable. As I said, the set is very passive before a few boosts. I'm also not sure how Psyshock CM latias and reni beat it when they can't even 2HKO the current spread without a boost. The utility with Unaware is very good, it basically neutralizes all of these threats. Anyway, Flamethrower is slashed (which sorta defeats the purpose of you even arguing) and I've already explained why Unaware is good on this set. Seems like we're done. Yay.

I'm not really sure if the Gyarados thing means much considering it falls if clef garnished any boosts, and as it mega evolves, it just becomes more susceptible to clef's stab (I.e. easy ko at +1 with a bit of prior damage). It's not a very good example. =/ You really only win if you get lucky.

 

[Chillarmy]

So basically, it's a third utility set that tries to act as a late-game sweeper? Most of those Pokemon can just, you know, attack and force Clefable to Wish. With the fourth moveslot being occupied by Calm Mind, it'll be much tougher keeping Clefable healthy enough to check those Pokemon again. Without Softboiled, Toxic, Flamethrower, or Thunder Wave, Clefable is a lot easier to pressure. Even if you CAN prevent a couple of Pokemon from setting up ONCE (SD Talon likes to carry Roost / Taunt, and will win eventually and Lando-T just about 2HKOes with Earthquake; so that leaves us with BD Azu and Thund-I, which aren't hard to check), Clefable won't be in good enough condition to boost and actually attempt to sweep.

 

[phantom]

Actually, the Earthquake doesn't 2HKO. I'd like the fabrications to end.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Clefable: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So that's false. And Protect avoids the KO after rocks.

And the more common Talonflame set up set is the Swords Dance variant, which doesn't carry Taunt and loses even if it has roost once clef gets to +6. =/

So we're back to square one.

So basically, it's a third utility set that tries to act as a late-game sweeper?

Didn't I just explain? It's meant to remedy how passive the set is and prevent set up sweepers from boosting alongside you. Also, I'm not sure how easy it is to check a +6 azumarill and a +2 Thundurus. Come on man, those two are some of the most threatening setup sweepers in ou.

Without Softboiled, Toxic, Flamethrower, or Thunder Wave, Clefable is a lot easier to pressure.

The same can be said for basically everything that wants to run 8 moves. It's not much of a Calm Mind set, really.

Clefable won't be in good enough condition to boost and actually attempt to sweep

I'm not sure why that's the case when they can't even 2HKO clef let alone take repeated moonblasts even at +0 ?_? Sorry, but this is also false.

 

[Chillarmy]

You are incredibly irrational and inconsiderate--so much that it almost seems as if you're trolling--but I won't take that any further than it needs to be.

Why don't you look at this realistically for a second, and understand that: If your intention is to prevent opposing Pokemon from setting up alongside Clefable, it won't be at full HP for the entire duration of a match. You're forcing Clefable to take unnecessary attacks when it should be trying to boost and stay healthy enough to sweep.

If that Clefable switches into, say, Latias--one of the few times when Clefable is almost guaranteed a safe switch in--think about how that scenario can eventually play out. The opposition, taking into account the possibility of Thunder Wave, Flamethrower, Toxic, Calm Mind, and, of course, Moonblast, won't immediately switch scurry away to their sweeper. Instead, they'll safely pick through Clefable's moveset, usually by switching in something that doesn't mind either status move, or the possible coverage attack (Clefable, if it doesn't switch into LO Psychic or something, doesn't have much to lose by going for Flamethrower), such as specially defensive Celebi, Blissey / Chansey, Aegislash, Heatran, Tentacruel, Mega Venusaur, Talonflame (in certain situations) and so on. If Clefable Calm Minds, uses Wish, or Moonblasts on the switch, it's going to lose momentum, allowing the opposition to rack up additional damage on it via hazards, status, or simply attacking. That's more than enough damage for the aforementioned offensive threats to plow right on through. Magic Guard doesn't have to worry about this.

Now, when I'd said that Lando-T "just about 2HKOes", I'd meant that it comes dangerously close to doing so. As I'd mentioned earlier in this post, that 2HKO is very likely to happen when Clefable is "clear" to set up with little caution, even with Protect. Moreover, you're harshly overrating how strong +2 Thundurus is (not to mention that it can't beat +1 Clefable if it sets up simultaneously) and how difficult it is to check. Azumarill as well; checking Belly Drum is no more difficult than checking CB. Lastly, are you dismissing the usefulness of Taunt + BU Talonflame? It's a set that many can attest to being better than SD. Furthermore, Taunt Talonflame in general beats this Clefable, so I really am not seeing what makes it any less valid than the other Pokemon you'd mentioned.

If that set is to be played as another defensive set, then there's no use of calling it "Calm Mind". Matter of fact, you might as well combine it with physically defensive and remove the CM set altogether. Makes the analysis a lot less cluttered and confusing, y'know.

Also, I dunno if you like to choose to be oblivious, or have some weird fetish for coming after me specifically, but could you please knock it off? Makes you come of as very unapproachable and just... arrogant. If you wanna continue, why not reply to tehy's post as well? He's the one who'd brought up the could-be problem with Magic Guard being slashed second. Seems pretty odd considering that he made just as valid of point as I.

Oh and:

Being able to always win the CM war

Is why I'd brought up Psyshock Latias and Reun. "CM war" usually refers to two Calm Minders attempting to outboost and eventually overpower each other. Perhaps you should take a moment to comprehend the points people present to you, rather than immediately dismiss them because you THINK that you know what you're talking about.

 

[tehy]

I'd rather not take any more atrocious comments form the peanut gallery. I'll get this written up soon enough.

Yeah, i know what you mean...having to defend your opinions is a drag.

Anyways, to post something of substance here...full agreement with what Chillarmy is saying. There's just not that much that sets up on you, not that much that CMs at all these days, and without Magic Guard it's so much easier to wear down and beat Clefable. Meanwhile, it can't even act as the epic defensive/stall teams smasher it can with Magic Guard.

And you want to know the BEST bit? It isn't even that great against offensive teams, either! Since it lacks a fire-type move (Or reliable recovery/setup, but both of those have strong reasons for sticking around), it's constantly checked by steel-type switch-ins you can see a mile away! Sure, you might wear them down with Moonblast and hazards, but meanwhile, that's a lot of strong attacks your team will be taking, and it makes it much, much harder to really be effective against those teams.

So overall...if you want Unaware Clefable, cool, go ahead. We got Unaware Clefable for days-two set's worth! But... it shouldn't really be using Calm Mind, ya know?

And I hope it goes without saying that if Magic Guard is slashed first, so are Flamethrower and Softboiled?

 

[Fuzznip]

Calm Mind Clefable with Unaware is actually really good, so I don't get the complaints there. It's an excellent win condition on stall teams and is just a decent check to a number of boosting attackers for any given team. I've personally used Moonlight and Heal Bell (you can use Flamethrower) with it because I didn't want Wish/Protect as my method of healing and mono Fairy isn't bad. Moonlight is still a perfectly viable move, and it's not like Hippowdon and Tyranitar even enjoy switching into Clefable with that Moonblast, and rain isn't that common. I'd argue it to be a main slash, but that probably won't go too far, so you can mention it in the set comments if you haven't already.

Also, Magic Guard + Flamethrower + Soft-Boiled is already in the set, so what are you guys even arguing? I'm a little confused.

 

[Fuzznip]

Excuse the double post, but I'm kind of annoyed how Clefable's sets are presented. They just look really ugly to me since you're basically combining two separate sets into one. I'm wondering if we can actually separate them since they play a bit differently despite having similar movesets. For example:

The Unaware set:
Calm Mind
Moonblast
Wish / Moonlight
Protect / Heal Bell / Flamethrower

The Magic Guard set:
Calm Mind
Moonblast
Flamethrower
Soft-Boiled

I dunno, just a thought.

 

[phantom]

It doesn't matter much to me either way. I'm fine with the split, but this already has two QC checks. If another QC member could weigh in, that could probably help.

 

[Chillarmy]

The 'arguing' stems from the redundancy of having THREE Unaware sets--two of which play very similarly. You switch Clefable into a boosting threat, attempt to ward it off, and capitalize on the forced switch. Calm Mind + Unaware is no different from Toxic + Unaware, utility-wise. It's just another option with which Clefable can use to take advantage of halting the opposing player's momentum. With that in mind, in order to make proper use of Calm Mind, Clefable (well, any user of it) NEEDS the ability to overcome Pokemon and strategies that can effectively wear it down through more passive means, such as phazing + hazards and status. I can't see much of a problem with simply slashing (or mentioning) CM on the physically defensive set and calling it a day.

and the problem with Moonlight (from my experiences at least) is that Clefable is not a defensive behemoth, even at +1. Between residual damage and having to tank attacks from certain offensive threats, Moonlight WILL be used often. Clefable would, ironically, need Wish support itself, as Moonlight's depressingly low 8 PP will prevent it from making good use of CM.

 

[alexwolf]

Excuse the double post, but I'm kind of annoyed how Clefable's sets are presented. They just look really ugly to me since you're basically combining two separate sets into one. I'm wondering if we can actually separate them since they play a bit differently despite having similar movesets. For example:

The Unaware set:
Calm Mind
Moonblast
Wish / Moonlight
Protect / Heal Bell / Flamethrower

The Magic Guard set:
Calm Mind
Moonblast
Flamethrower
Soft-Boiled

I dunno, just a thought.

I am fine with this, looks much better than what we have now, though Toxic should be slashed after CM on the first set.

 

[tehy]

I'm sorry, but as a win condition, Unaware Clefable kind of falls short in my eyes;one of the best reasons to use Calm Mind Clefable is to trash defensive teams, which as I mention it can't do, and it still struggles with offensive teams because it can't provide it's own Firepower to blast through steels.

Can we please not bring Moonlight into this? I guess it's *acceptable* but it's still really problematic;tyranitar and hippo actually don't mind switching in much at all, and the PP will run out quickly.

Why not just combine it all into a physically defensive Unaware set? Calm Mind can be slashed second after Toxic or w/e if you want it to have win condition capabilities, but I'm just not sure if that's the best thing. Quite frankly, I consider Calm Mind Magic Guard to be better than Calm Mind Unaware, if you want to argue between defensive pivots, that's something else I don't feel like taking on.

 

[Selflessly]

I think for Unaware+Leftovers, you can also try a set of Calm Mind/Moonlight/Moonblast/Heal Bell. With the same EV spread as MG you still would be able to use Venusaur as setup bait but also have a mon that can check setup sweepers over having another coverage move in Flamethrower.

 

[phantom]

Nah, it can't set up on Mega Venusaur if it lacks Magic Guard b/c of the poison that sludge bomb will likely incur, which would turn a 3hko into a 2hko and so on. Furthermore, the lack of defense evs would make it a bit more difficult to check physical attackers. Basically, there's a reason why the sets are split--you can't get the best of both worlds. At best, merging the EVs and abilities would just create an inferior hybrid.

 

[Selflessly]

For the Specially defensive set, don't you mean to run Sdef instead of Def i believe there is a typo there.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

The Magic Guard CM set should have a spread of 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe Bold. Diverting 164 EVs that help it enormously in living powerful attacks from various Physical attackers in order to have a better match-up against a single threat (Mega Venusaur) is unacceptable.

 

[Hootie]

I know Clefable is a very versatile pokemon and everything, but the write-ups seems way too lengthy (honestly five paragraphs is a bit much for team options on the first set) and I feel like they could be cut down just a bit; especially your Overview and OO section.

 

[PokemonBreeder]

May i ask what the point of the 12 Speed EV's are used for?

On the Calm set is 252 HP/252 Sp. Def/4 Def a usable alternative as well?

Thanks!

 

[phantom]

If you take the time to read the analysis, it says it's to outspeed minimum speed tyranitar.