Uh... no, Genesect can run a mean set outside of Choice Scarf. 99 base speed may miss out on the 100 speed tier, but it's still a good speed. He can run an expert belt set perfectly fine thanks to his massive movepool options and he can always U-turn out if the odds aren't looking favorable to him. A shift gear set can also work, Genesect's great defensive typing paired with his decent defenses and offensive pressure typically allows him at least one turn to set up.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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I disagree with 2 things
1. Genesect's sets are not subpar. If you are caught unprepared by its choice, EBelt, or shift gear set, it'll put huge dents in your team. And since it's pretty easy to fake 1 set and really be another, a good player can use any of them.
2. Genesect is not all things volt turn, he is simply one of (if not the) best abuser. Discussing the entire strategy of rain makes little sense, what does make sense is bringing up another Pokemon that was the best abuser of a strategy, excadrill, and he was banned.
You only have to do that for the "depends" ones. Plus, this is true for a lot of sweepers and not just Mega Lucario.
Just because half of my list is slower than him doesn't mean they get killed by him. Some, like Infernape, can outspeed him on turn 1. But it's true that if Lucario was given the opportunity to transform earlier in the match then he has an advantage against Infernape.
Nevermind this guys obsession with the Physical Set when the Special Set is even more devastating as Will-O-Wisp/Intimidate has no value against it.
cause he can just u turn out.
Regarding Lucario, it doesn't have to set up. A lot of the pokemon that have moves against lucario can't risk staying in because it'll just get cleaned up by mega luc's special moves if it's taken a bit of damage already. In the hands of a good player, mega lucario is a huge advantage over the other team because it immediately turns the momentum over to the user at the right moment.. which there are a lot of "moments" to take advantage of in a game. I mean sure ttar can ko lucario, but Mega lucario could ohko with aura sphere. Would you stay in with a situation like that? Even if ttar was specially defensive and you "think" that it could take a hit, there's also the factor that it could be a physical set.. which ohkos ttar with cc. Lots of factors here.
Deoxys speed's offensive capabilities aren't bad.. but it's easy to deal with if you have a wall. (which every balanced team should have atleast 1)
Genesect... I'm not too sure. It's great.. but not broken from my experience.
Regarding Lucario, it doesn't have to set up. A lot of the pokemon that have moves against lucario can't risk staying in because it'll just get cleaned up by mega luc's special moves if it's taken a bit of damage already. In the hands of a good player, mega lucario is a huge advantage over the other team because it immediately turns the momentum over to the user at the right moment.. which there are a lot of "moments" to take advantage of in a game. I mean sure ttar can ko lucario, but Mega lucario could ohko with aura sphere. Would you stay in with a situation like that? Even if ttar was specially defensive and you "think" that it could take a hit, there's also the factor that it could be a physical set.. which ohkos ttar with cc. Lots of factors here.
Deoxys speed's offensive capabilities aren't bad.. but it's easy to deal with if you have a wall. (which every balanced team should have atleast 1)
Genesect... I'm not too sure. It's great.. but not broken from my experience.
To completely counter genesect, you'd have to take little damage from any of its probable moves (a nigh impossible feat with its amazing coverage), especially U-Turn, be able to either outspeed it or punish it for U-turning out, and kill it faster than it can kill you. The two that come closest as far as I have seen are Charizard X who does all of them, even if it isn't quite as defensively viable as I'd like, and MVenusaur. The problem with Charizard is that it has to switch in to become Dragon type, and is vulnerable to thunderbolt on the switch. The problem with MVenusaur is that it has no way to prevent the U-Turn, so it has to predict who's switching in. Both can effectively deal with Genesect if you play them right, but I still hate having to go to all this trouble.
Broken is a pretty messy word to pin down. With sweepers, it's easy because they'll wreck you're team unless you specifically plan for them. But with other pokemon, its not quite as cut and dry. What I did is I looked down the line of OU viable pokemon, and asked which ones I specifically needed answers for when building my teams. The answer I came up with was Genesect, Lucario, and Rotom, as well as checks for my team's main sweeper's weaknesses. That's not the official method, but that's where I start when looking for potentially broken pokemon. Genesect maintains momentum for your opponent far too easily, and can devastate so many pokemon of varying roles that I don't think it belongs in OU
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So you complain that people are ignoring your other "counters", then cherrypick sentences out of my response? Real mature. "metagame trends of how many teams carry rocks are irrelevent" wasn't my point, it was a clause setting up my point which explained why they're irrelevent. By removing the context, you've changed the meaning and therefore your rebuttal is pointless. In case you didn't realize, the important part of that sentence was "if rocks allow Mega Luke to beat things that could counter it, putting a good rocker on a team alongside Luke is a good idea." The point about spinning and defogging, again was not a standalone, but simply support to rocks being a valid point to consider.
We're assuming Lucario gets a free SD because we're assuming not everything on your team is death fodder. If you stay in and it doesn't SD/NP, you've most likely given Mega Luke a free KO. Will it try to set up? usually. But usually isn't good enough. If you need your T-Tar to counter something threatening like a Talonflame, you can't risk losing it. A smart player may see that your T-tar is the only thing standing in the way of talon cleaning you late game, and may want to simply remove it. In this case, staying in has cost you the match just as much as giving Luke free boosts.
If you sack Gliscor to get a check in, he's still demolished. And the thing is, I'm not aware of anything that can take 2 hits at +2. The counters are counters because they can switch in to a boosting move, take one +2 hit and Ko/status/phase back. 2 +2 hits are just unmanageable. And that's if it doesn't predict the switch out and pick up another Nasty Plot. Switching into Lando-T then into something that can take a +1 ice punch reasonably well isn't checking it, it isn't countering it. It's giving something with base 145 attack and a +1 boost free damage on one of your mons. And that's ignoring the fact that an NP variant laughs at intimidate and is likely to spike something on your team with a +2 Flash Cannon.
Aegislash doesn't take "very little damage", as I recall it takes somewhere near thirty percent (I use Smogon.com/calc which doesn't even have the 5th gen pokes in it, so I can't easily run the calc myself) and since Aegislash only has lefties for recovery, that's five turns of taking no damage to be back up to full, which isn't likely to happen.
Jellicent can take a hit and cripple SD Lucario. But if you bring Jelly in on an NP variant, it can boost on the switch, then again while you burn it or switch out. No one has done a calc on +4 mega Lucario because no one needs to: you're just dead.
If you're having a hard time setting up with Mega Luke, then it's just you. It's not hard to put your opponent in a position where what it threatens is so important they can't risk losing it, which is where you get your boost. Of course he can't set up on top tier threats, they wouldn't be top tier threats if dangerous sweepers could set up on them. Not that no sweeper can set up on any of them, but they're top tier because they can, either through offensive or defensive prowess prevent most sweepers from setting up.
Other pro-ban people are ignoring your checks because the ability to check some mega luke sets is entirely dependent on you guessing correctly which set it is. And if you try switching to scout the coverage moves, you're just handing it free damage, or worse, free boosts. The hard counters to both sets have been pointed out before. If you find more that aren't hillariously unviable, feel free to share. Otherwise, stop bringing up set-dependant checks
to finish, which do you think is more likely; that everyone except you is overrating Mega Lucario, or that you may be wrong.
Let's play might revenge kill, but can't switch into it at all!
Here are my responses to your "reasonings" (by that, I mean your madness)
Rotom-W: Wisp does threaten Lucario...if it's Physical.
Aegislash: Dark Pulse, Shadow Ball, Crunch...
Talonflame: If you're going to say Priority, Lucario wins thanks to ExtremeSpeed.
Genesect: dat Close Combat and Vacuum Wave
Greninja: No, Vacuum Wave
Charizard: Gets hurt easily anyways.
Lucario: FUCKING MIRROR MATCH
Heatran: Close Combat
Gliscor: Ice Punch
Garchomp: Ice Punch
Azumarill: Flash Cannon is a thing, you know...
Scizor: Obviously
Ferrothorn: Also obviously
Tyranitar: Never depends. That Close Combat will do it.
Conkeldurr: Eh. Mega Lucario obviously wouldn't try. Conkeldurr is a decentishish (not really) check/Revenge Killer, but nothing more.
Excadrill: Never depends. The Close Combat...
Dragonite: That first Ice Punch is stil going to hurt...
Venusaur: Only a select few Pokemon break Venusaur anyways. Speaking of...
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 158-186 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
That's at a neutral attack. That's also considering that Sleep Powder can miss. Hope your synthesis works and that you've already Mega Evolved.
Mandibuzz: Whirlwind is NOT an answer to stopping a Pokemon.
Gengar: Bullet Punch with Adaptability...
Espeon: Bulet Punch with Adaptability.
Mamoswine: DETAILS! PUT IN DETAILS! Close Combat, Vacuum Wave, Bullet Punch, Flash Cannon?
Goodra: 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Goodra: 256-302 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Make it +2 and read the note below the entire list.
Alakazam: ExtremeSpeed says hi?
Landorus-T: -1 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 260-308 (68 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
First you gotta switch in.
Togekiss: No, Flash Cannon and Bullet Punch
Skarmory: Didn't we go through this before?
Breloom: Logic is backwards here (see below note).
Infernape: I'm sorry, but ExtremeSpeed?
Volcarona: DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS
Gyarados: As close as it gets, yet still falls unless this is an Assault Vest/ResTalk set. Those are your only options, yet Mega Skywalker can still set up.
Latios: Good luck with that Dark Pulse and Shadow Ball.
Mawile: Good luck tanking Close Combat
Trevenant: No. Shadow Ball.
Cloyster: Close Combat then ExtremeSpeed says no.
Pinsir: ExtremeSpeed, Ice Punch...
Blissey: Umm...obviously.
Sableye: Good luck with that Flash Cannon.
Smeargle: Never bring up Smeargle, even when talking Top 50.
Sylveon: ...no arguments here.
Klefki: Close Combat tanking.
Clefable: Bullet Punch and Flash Cannon.
Donphan: NO! We are NOT bringing up Elephant of Lame here...
Galvantula: Umm...coverage move because Galvantula is frail?
Starmie: Is always faster, eh? I guess Starmie can outspeed ExtremeSpeed.
Tentacruel: Is this really the best you can think of?
Forretress: ...not going to argue.
Bisharp: ALWAYS RUNS BECAUSE OF FIGHT-TYPE MOVES!
Salamence: Ice Punch
Thundurus: Ice Punch
Side Note: Now...all of these "threats" that you say...now imagine that you have to switch them into Mega Lucario...GOOD LUCK. If you're going to post here, listen to what everybody says. We've been through this...
I'm a little confused on what "cherrypicking sentences" has to do with maturity. Would you mind elaborating on that, or are you just trying to pick on someone to look smart and superior?
Besides, I responded to pretty much every sentence in that post of yours.
It's spelled "irrelevant."
if rocks allow Mega Luke to beat things that could counter it, putting a good rocker on a team alongside Luke is a good idea.
Why does this explain how "metagame trends" are irrelevant?
What's a "good rocker?" If you want to use Stealth Rock, you want a "good rocker" no matter what. Everyone wants a "good rocker" in their team regardless of Lucario being in it.
You can't consistently rely on SR to be on the field. What if Defog is used after your "good rocker" dies? I'm not denying that it helps Lucario a lot and neither is anyone else. But it's not a very strong argument in favor of Lucario going to ubers if Rapid Spin and Defog are on a lot of teams since you can't rely on pulling the SR card when someone brings up Volcarona or Moltres.
Notice that it costs a turn to set up SR, a turn to bring in your SR user and a turn to switch out, which in this fast-paced metagame isn't exactly a good idea to do more than once. The slightest mistake can give an opportunity for something to set up on you. It's not very convenient.
The fact that Lucario even has to rely on SR in the first place is a point against it while also being a point in its favor. The world isn't black and white: things have advantages and disadvantages.
Ugh, this sentence doesn't make any sense. What does not being death fodder have to do with Lucario getting a SD? Hell, if you're not death fodder, then you can take a turn to KO or cripple Lucario.
Only if your name is Tyranitar, Excadrill or something else I'm forgetting.
We're assuming high-level competitive play. You're going to use your Lucario counter/check as conservatively as possible if you see it in team preview. You don't just snap your fingers and magically remove the Lucario counter.
Gliscor can always take an Ice Punch and any special move Lucario has to attack him with, as long as Lucario isn't boosted. If Lucario already has a SD, then you can use Protect to scout for Crunch or Ice Punch. It's very unlikely for Lucario to use SD twice, and it's overkill too.
Ok. Going by your definition of counters, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Zapdos, Volcarona, Moltres and Wishmence and maybe others I'm forgetting can all take on Crunch SD Lucario. Aegislash, Jellicent, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Volcarona and Moltres can take on SD IP Lucario. NP Lucario has fewer counters but it has less damage potential than SD Lucario, and it suffers from a worse case of four moveslot syndrome. Depending on which set it has, it can be countered by Aegislash, Mega Venusaur, Gyarados, Moltres, Zapdos, Volcarona and so on.
Yup, that's why Landorus-T isn't listed under IP Lucario's counters!
Crunch 3HKOs Aegislash. So what? Aegislash KOs it back.
I've already pointed out that versatility is what makes Lucario dangerous in the first place. This is nothing new. Fortunately, Dark Pulse Lucario is a lot easier to check than Vacuum Wave Lucario, but if you use Vacuum Wave instead of Aura Sphere, you have no way of dealing with the most common Pokemon in the game: Rotom-W.
If Lucario can't set up on the vast majority of OU Pokemon, then what the hell is he doing in ubers?
Actually, pro-ban people agree with me on Lucario's checks generally being checked by the same things. As I pointed out to someone else, most checks I listed actually can check Lucario's most common sets.
Also, here's a more important question: when did I ever say anything about people ignoring the checks I listed? I believe I meant counters.
I think it's best I repeat a point I made earlier in this post. I pointed out that, in this fast-paced metagame, it's generally not a good idea to just waste time setting up SR because you lose momentum. If you don't need Landorus-T for something else on your opponent's team, then you've wasted 3 turns trying to set up SR: 1 to bring Landorus-T in, 1 to set up SR and 1 to switch out, when you could have been doing other things to keep your momentum. You lose momentum when you spend time using SR. And don't get me started on Defog and Rapid Spin...
You guys act like using SR has no costs whatsoever and it's really easy to keep on the field, despite the ubiquity of Defog and Rapid Spin and despite the loss of momentum.
1st
I think you give donphan too much credit, it is not nearly as good as you make it out to be.
2nd (and this is to everyone, not specifically you)
We've already established how few counters Lucario has. Conk's the closest I can come up with, but even he can't just switch in and expect to force Luke out. Say the switch is predicted and he gets a SD off, then Conk'll mach punch for up to 70% and be KO'd by CC. There is literally no "counter" for Lucario. What I think is bugging people is that we're treating Lucario like we've treated other broken sweepers, and there's just no comparison there. Blaziken and Kangaskhan were both incredibly difficult to revenge kill or approach, and were quickbanned because of it. Some of the purposes of that quick ban was to save time not having a suspect test when they stood no chance at passing, and to prevent unhealthy development of the metagame. Lucario wasn't quickbanned, so there must be some people who thought that it could pass a suspect ban, and yet the attitude of this thread has been that it's gone from the very first page. I'm not saying people shouldn't vote to ban, I still think it fits the bill of broken, but a lot of people seem pretty close minded.
Thanks for proving my point
Also, is it "close" or "closed" minded? I've always said the first, but the second makes more sense.
I don't know man I don't deal with those big words
Anyways I hope genesect stays OU becuz my group needs it for something
Mega Lucario with nasty plot is too powerful.
Aurashpere and flash cannon with adaptability powered by nasty plot can easily ohko most of pokemons with normal damage or supereffective damage.
Even sometimes damage that is not very effective can ohko some pokemons with a low special def.
I think lucario with lucarioite or mega-lucario with nasty plot should be ubers.
Aurashpere and flash cannon with adaptability powered by nasty plot can easily ohko most of pokemons with normal damage or supereffective damage.
Even sometimes damage that is not very effective can ohko some pokemons with a low special def.
I think lucario with lucarioite or mega-lucario with nasty plot should be ubers.
God dammit Eli stop ruining our plans holy shit
Just like to say that Physical Scarf Genesect was basically holding this meta together for balance teams. With it gone, setup sweepers like Mega Ttar, Pinsir, Gyarados, Chomp, etc are all impossible to deal with on a balance team.
Full Stall or Full Offense; Balance is dead on suspect ladder.
Full Stall or Full Offense; Balance is dead on suspect ladder.
There is one thing I am noticing about the Mega Lucario arguments, specifically Chiki's discussion of counters. In his most recent post Chiki listed a number of pokemon he called counters to various Mega Lucario sets. Those are not counters to Mega Lucario, those are possible checks. The definition of a counter is something that can switch in to a specific pokemon, regardless of set or move switched in on, and either force it out or proceed to beat it 1v1, despite the other pokemon having already got a free turn. Stop referring to pokemon that can do that to one set in particular as a counter, especially considering that there are multiple physical sets and multiple special sets, some of which are beat by completely different pokemon (and also beat completely different checks to other Mega Lucario sets) despite having the same inclination in move type.
Pretty sure it's "close minded", the opposite being "open minded" would lead me to believe that anyways.
Going by the bolded definition, Charizard has no counters. What can counter both X and Y that isn't uber?
Close-minded and close-minded are both acceptable.
This thread as of late
The test is practically over, there are a thousand discussions about mega-luc with most of them being pro-ban.
Please go read those.
The test is practically over, there are a thousand discussions about mega-luc with most of them being pro-ban.
Please go read those.
I don't even want it banned tho. All I did was to mention it. And hp ground is used when a teammate like tflame benefits from a weakened (BAN ME PLEASE) mainly, not for sect itself. Ebelt sect does beat talons main countets after all.
Just want to point out that other scarfers exist. So does priority. Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Excadrill, Scizor, Mamoswine, and Conkeldurr are just some examples of scarfers/priority users that are perfectly viable on balanced teams. You realize that the four Pokemon you mention as problematic have vastly different checks and counters, barring a common check in Scarfsect with its impossibly diverse coverage. Something is broken here. Not to mention of those four Pokemon, three are commonly used on balanced teams - in fact, things like Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar function better on balanced (balance-offense) than fully offensive teams.
It takes skill -to a degree- to find an opening to set up a Pokemon to +1. If anything, your post shows how banal and restrictive teambuilding has become with Genesect in the meta. Building a balanced team? Oh, just slap on Scarfsect as a blanket check to 95% of setup sweepers at +1 AND a hugely cheap way to ratchet up momentum. Just ban it already, IMO.
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Isn't that broken? Isn' t something broken if you need to sacc something instead of letting it setup.
Also, +2 is equivalent to 2 unboosted attacks, so we can go from there.
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