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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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"Blacklist" means we're not discussing it because it makes the whole thread go to hell.
Magnezone fits where it is pretty well I think. Analytic is nice but it really doesn't threaten that much that can't ko it first. Excadrill, Landorus-T, Talonflame, and charizard all destroy magnezone, while it doesn't really get past any checks it had last gen. It's powerful but pretty easy to deal with.
I'm glad Diggersby got boosted up from D; I really do think he's one of the better Scarfers right now (Excluding the very obvious one that's miles ahead of all other Scarfers...)
I agree with Giometry that Tornadus-T is A- Rank, B+ at least. Everyone has been putting absolute crap arguments saying that Tornadus-T is bad with no evidence. If you want to see my posts then go back 10 pages or something, Tornadus-T is B+ at the worst condition.
Sharpedo needs to be ranked at a solid B Rank. Pokemon XY has not introduced anything that changes Sharpedo's impact to the metagame bar Talonflame and Thundurus-I coming back to OU (which it has Aqua Jet for both). Mega Venusaur is its only new threat but Destiny bond... Sharpedo doesn't need rain anyways so the nerf wasn't much of a problem especially now that it wants to SPAM Crunch this generation. In fact, it even got better allowing it to reach a level of possibly B+ Rank. With Crunch being able to hit Steel-types neutrally, it can muscle its way past Ferrothorn if it switches into Crunch. It can now break through Metagross, Jirachi, and Emploeon, walls it previously had problems with. However, the best draw it got was that Water + Dark STAB is much more frightening to deal with due to this nerf allowing it to keep a supporting move too such as the aforementioned Aqua Jet (it can go over Protect too), but Destiny Bond which allows it to be a team player unlike many sweepers in this metagame like Mega Charizard X and Mega Pinsir. It can easily lure in and kill threats like Breloom and Azumarill / wipe out threats that wall it's coverage or something it cannot OHKO.
Now, we have come to a point where Sharpedo excels in the current metagame because not of its power, but Speed Boost. This ability is simply amazing allowing it to completely wipe out Hyper Offense Teams and remove trouble some Counters and checks with Destiny Bond supporting another PKMN. This fact itself is why Sharpedo is much better this generation.
I want you to take a look at S-Rank ignoring Mega Lucario and Genesect (they'll be banned and even if they stay, we have Destiny bond). Aegislash can be played around with Protect, Mega Pinsir can't switch into any of Sharpedo's move if Stealth Rock is up, Mega Charizard Y has problems with Crunch and SR thanks to poor physical bulk, Mega Charizard X can't take LO Crunch or Waterfall that well and will be KOed if it directly switches in by a second attack and Destiny Bond makes it pretty much killed in exchange for Sharpedo, and Mega Venusaur has to deal with Destiny Bond. It kills off 3/5 of the S-Rank with Rocks and has Destiny bond to deal with the other two. I also want you to take into consideration that Lucarionite and Genesect will be banned, so their priority will not be a threat anymore and it has more options as team support to choose from in XY such as Deoxys-S/D, Thundurus-I, Chesnaught, Mega Evolutions, etc.
However, reading this, one will make a claim that Sharpedo should be A Rank, but it has some problems, mainly it's frailty. Despite being team player this generation, it use to deal with being priority bait. This will definitely bring it down a notch. Sharpedo also has OHKO everything, so Stealth Rock and residual damage are needed for Sharpedo to sweep. While Destiny bond is a great choice of move, it will have to sacrifice itself in the process meaning that you'll want a Duo Sweep core like SD Garchomp, so it will need to use the move wisely. However, these flaws are almost non existent since Sharpedo doesn't come out early game. That's a ridiculous statement. it only comes out LATE-GAME. The main flaw is that Sharpedo is very predictable especially now that the Mixed Set is useless. It's only set is Waterfall | Crunch | Destiny Bond | Protect with Aqua Jet being a possibility over Protect. This makes it easy for the opponent to know what you're trying to weaken or eliminate to gain your win condition giving a Sharpedo the definition of B-Rank.
Don't be afraid to try it out! Sharpedo deserves a B+ Rank if alexwolf agrees, but B Rank is a nice rank for any PKMN, so I won't argue about it.
Sharpedo needs to be ranked at a solid B Rank. Pokemon XY has not introduced anything that changes Sharpedo's impact to the metagame bar Talonflame and Thundurus-I coming back to OU (which it has Aqua Jet for both). Mega Venusaur is its only new threat but Destiny bond... Sharpedo doesn't need rain anyways so the nerf wasn't much of a problem especially now that it wants to SPAM Crunch this generation. In fact, it even got better allowing it to reach a level of possibly B+ Rank. With Crunch being able to hit Steel-types neutrally, it can muscle its way past Ferrothorn if it switches into Crunch. It can now break through Metagross, Jirachi, and Emploeon, walls it previously had problems with. However, the best draw it got was that Water + Dark STAB is much more frightening to deal with due to this nerf allowing it to keep a supporting move too such as the aforementioned Aqua Jet (it can go over Protect too), but Destiny Bond which allows it to be a team player unlike many sweepers in this metagame like Mega Charizard X and Mega Pinsir. It can easily lure in and kill threats like Breloom and Azumarill / wipe out threats that wall it's coverage or something it cannot OHKO.
Now, we have come to a point where Sharpedo excels in the current metagame because not of its power, but Speed Boost. This ability is simply amazing allowing it to completely wipe out Hyper Offense Teams and remove trouble some Counters and checks with Destiny Bond supporting another PKMN. This fact itself is why Sharpedo is much better this generation.
I want you to take a look at S-Rank ignoring Mega Lucario and Genesect (they'll be banned and even if they stay, we have Destiny bond). Aegislash can be played around with Protect, Mega Pinsir can't switch into any of Sharpedo's move if Stealth Rock is up, Mega Charizard Y has problems with Crunch and SR thanks to poor physical bulk, Mega Charizard X can't take LO Crunch or Waterfall that well and will be KOed if it directly switches in by a second attack and Destiny Bond makes it pretty much killed in exchange for Sharpedo, and Mega Venusaur has to deal with Destiny Bond. It kills off 3/5 of the S-Rank with Rocks and has Destiny bond to deal with the other two. I also want you to take into consideration that Lucarionite and Genesect will be banned, so their priority will not be a threat anymore and it has more options as team support to choose from in XY such as Deoxys-S/D, Thundurus-I, Chesnaught, Mega Evolutions, etc.
However, reading this, one will make a claim that Sharpedo should be A Rank, but it has some problems, mainly it's frailty. Despite being team player this generation, it use to deal with being priority bait. This will definitely bring it down a notch. Sharpedo also has OHKO everything, so Stealth Rock and residual damage are needed for Sharpedo to sweep. While Destiny bond is a great choice of move, it will have to sacrifice itself in the process meaning that you'll want a Duo Sweep core like SD Garchomp, so it will need to use the move wisely. However, these flaws are almost non existent since Sharpedo doesn't come out early game. That's a ridiculous statement. it only comes out LATE-GAME. The main flaw is that Sharpedo is very predictable especially now that the Mixed Set is useless. It's only set is Waterfall | Crunch | Destiny Bond | Protect with Aqua Jet being a possibility over Protect. This makes it easy for the opponent to know what you're trying to weaken or eliminate to gain your win condition giving a Sharpedo the definition of B-Rank.
Don't be afraid to try it out! Sharpedo deserves a B+ Rank if alexwolf agrees, but B Rank is a nice rank for any PKMN, so I won't argue about it.
"Use either Sunny Day Ninetales or Mega Char Y + Sunny Day manual setters if you want to use a dedicated Sun team."
Those were your words, not mine. Anyways, I literally said that Mega Charizard-Y is a wallbreaker while Ninetales is a support pokemon, so how you can say that I don't get Ninetales role goes beyond me. I guess your ad hominem is a good way to end a conversation, good day sir.
As for Ninetales, it's an awful support pokemon, poor defensive typing, no recovery whatsoever, SR weakness, pitiful offense should tell you why. No synergy whatsoever on sun offense. If you need 8 turns of sun, use Heat Rock + Sunny Day support, not a poor pokemon like Ninetales. The ranking should obviously reflect this too.
Poison Heal Porygon2 may be good briefly, but once it leaves the field, Poison Heal is gone and Toxic isn't. Anytime it tries to come back in on anything not named Gliscor, it's going to have problems.
Lol lol lol lol lol lol
That was fun typing that
Ninetales does not need to waste a turn to do Sunny Day crap. This is amazing. Your lack of knowledge of sun teams is making your argument look like a 2 year old. Alexwolf is not abusing his power. In fact, no one agrees with your argument. Being able to sack yourself to get up sun for free is great. Sunny Day crap waste of turn is useless. I can sac ninetales and let my Venusaur or Victreebel clean up. I can go into Ninetales and double switch. This fact itself completely spoils your argument. This is end of story. Ninetales is a good pokemon because it sets up sun without wasting a valuable turn and your argument cannot counter this undeniable fact that you are facing. You lose this argument. I won't post anymore for a while unless I'm counter arguing Sharpedo or torn-t so yea.
This was probably a typo, but Gardevoir has no place being in B rank. Gardevoir-Mega can be in B rank, but since we're ranking Mega Pokemon separate from their regular counterparts Gardevoir should probably be C or D rank.
Also, why is Thundurus-T C+ rank?? An insane 145 base SpA, 101 Spe, a solid ability, and multiple viable sets should put it in at least B or B+, maybe even A-. What page was Thundurus-T even discussed?
Finally, Crobat should be higher than C- rank. With blazing fast 130 Spe and Infiltrator, it can smack things behind subs with Brave Bird, or even status someone behind a sub with a 100% accurate Toxic. And it has a nice movepool consisting of Defog, Roost, Taunt, U-turn, and Super Fang, as well as the already mentioned Brave Bird and 100% accurate Toxic.
Overall, I'm nominating Gardevoir (regular) for C or D rank, Thundurus-T for B or B+, and Crobat for C+/B-.
Also, why is Thundurus-T C+ rank?? An insane 145 base SpA, 101 Spe, a solid ability, and multiple viable sets should put it in at least B or B+, maybe even A-. What page was Thundurus-T even discussed?
Finally, Crobat should be higher than C- rank. With blazing fast 130 Spe and Infiltrator, it can smack things behind subs with Brave Bird, or even status someone behind a sub with a 100% accurate Toxic. And it has a nice movepool consisting of Defog, Roost, Taunt, U-turn, and Super Fang, as well as the already mentioned Brave Bird and 100% accurate Toxic.
Overall, I'm nominating Gardevoir (regular) for C or D rank, Thundurus-T for B or B+, and Crobat for C+/B-.
I will as always, fully endorse the Crobat bumping up to B- with these points said here:
Thudurus-T is a good pokemon, but in a world with his Incarnate form not being Uber, there is not much reason to use him. Being outclassed by yourself (which is a little funny) or another form makes him in an odd predicament, but he does get the nitch of higher damage.......for less speed and a slightly lesser ability (only lesser as he gets recovery but Prankster is always a plus).
As long as Aegislash isn't at +2, that'll work, as sacred sword won't KO with no boosts, and Specs Quiet Analytic Magnezone KO's aegislash blade everytime.
It certainly isn't as good as Mega- Gardevoir, but Scarfed Gardevoir is a good revenge killer. It has trace, which has the same benefits as posted on the Porygon2 discussion. It also has a good offensive move pool, including Moonblast, Shadowball, thunderbolt, Psychic/physhock, energy ball, and hyper voice. Gardevoir can also be a utility pokemon, with Synchronize, Will-o-wisp, toxic, dual screens, healing wish, memento, thunder wave, and wish. Mega gardevoir may be better for a defensive pokemon, but at least Gardevoir has a better defensive ability.
I'm not saying Gardevoir (normal) is spectacular, but it's definitely better than C/D. I'd put it at C+/B-.
Gardevoir's normal form makes a great scarfer as well as a decent (but not the best) utility Pokemon. Trace gives Gardevoir a lot of switch in opportunities and Moonblast + Psyshock gives reliable coverage for revenge killing.
I do agree that Gardy should be a bit lower than her MEvo, but by definition, she belongs in B- at the lowest.
I've been using Sun in XY OU since three days after XY OU was implemented. You can probably find my RMT somewhere on PO. I also have plenty of experience in 5th gen Sun. Your theorymon on the other hand doesn't show anything. You're basically sacrificing a team slot just for 8 turns of weather when you could be using a ten times better pokemon like Mega Charizard-Y and a reliable, synergetic support mon that doesn't suck like Ninetales, e.g. Whimsicott. Yes you need to use a turn to use Sunny Day. You're also not sacrificing one of your six team members to do so.
The difference between me and you is that I'm talking out of extensive experience. If you had any experience whatsoever you wouldn't post such ignorant comments.
You won't give up? 5 turns of sun from Mega Charizard Y is nothing compared to the utility of 8 turns Ninetales provides. If you were talking from extensive experience you would know this. What are you losing from sacrificing a team member? Last time I checked, sun teams only need a Defog or Rapid Spin user. The rest of the team is something that uses sun as a win condition. Having sun up is the goal of a sun team and the win condition is to abuse it. I am a very experienced sun player during BW2 and I have toyed with sun teams even now. Charizard Y only abuses the sun itself. If I was using Charizard Y, I would be SPAMming Fire Blasts then wasting turns switching. 5 turns is not a lot for a sweeper. Ninetales is a support pokemon too. You are challenging facts not opinions. This cannot be argued. Why are you getting so angry at me and alexwolf? We have not done anything but are just saying what is true and saying why you are wrong.mifnyou have ACTUALLY used sun, you would know the difference between the amount of sun available to support your tem. Clearly, you are the one theorymoning.
Ninetales will stay in B Rank.
Ninetales is garbage and was used last gen only for Sun support. Now that this is not permanent I would use ZardY any day and use Ninetales only if I really, really needed it. Ninetales should not be anywhere near B.
... Ninetales should still only be used for sun support. That doesn't diminish how important that support is.
Also, I don't know why everyone is acting like YZard is a good sun-setter for a whole team based around it. 5 turns isn't enough, especially when you account for the turn where ZardY is in. This means that you either need to spend one of your 5 turns switching to your sweeper or you need to keep YZard in/sack him. Those extra 3 turns are vital for sun teams, as they make the difference between a clean sweep and a sweep cut short. Ninetales also doesn't take up your Mega-slot and doesn't need to Mega-evolve to set up Drought (this is important in situations where you cannot ensure Charizard can get in without being KO'd.)
If it weren't for the immense utility in getting 8 free turns of sun upon switching-in, Ninetales would not be good enough to even warrant a spot on the viability rankings. However, those 8 turns are incredibly useful, and as a result Ninetales is incredibly useful. It's much more of a team player than YZard, whose sun is more for itself than its teammates.
I would like to bring back up my suggestion for Mega Ampharos for B rank, as I believe that its great power(165 SpAttack), nice typing and amazing bulk (Dragon/Electric 90/105/110), and its slow powerful Volt Switch (45 Speed)make is an exceptional pivot that is deserving of B rank.
I don't see anyone saying you should only use Mega Charizard-Y as a source of sun for a sun team. The sun support should come from a good support pokemon that can also fulfill other roles (so, not Ninetales). Whimsicott can setup Sun on Dragon-moves and aside from that deal with setup-moves and keep momentum with U-turn, which is extremely useful. Mega Charizard-Y is not a direct replacement for Ninetales, however Ninetales has become almost irrelevant because of Mega-Charizard-Y, just because using Ninetales and not using Mega Charizard-Y is flatout a poor choice, while using both is totally redundant. The only logical conclusion (if you really want to theorymon) is that Ninetales has to be replaced by a non-redundant support pokemon that doesn't suck. If you build a Sun team that way, the Sun turns from Mega Charizard-Y are an extra bonus and you still have reliable sun support, without being stuck with a weak pokemon like Ninetales in OU. I would like to link you to the Sun team I made to showcase this, but you could honestly find it easily on the Pokemon Online forum if you really wanted to.
Nominating Cloyster for C-Rank.
Shell Smash and Skill Link are really the only reasons to use Cloyster at all, since as a spinner it is outclassed by Mega Blastoise who possesses more mixed bulk and can beat Aegislash, and as a hazard supporter Skarmory and Ferrothorn are the better choices because of better defensive typing. Cloyster requires support in having either physically defensive Steel-types or Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Heatran removed in order to sweep an opponent's team. It also cannot break through bulky waters and weakness to rocks hinders it. Priority users (especially Scizor and Mega Lucario) can easily revenge kill it after taking out one mon, or scare it off before it smashes.
Shell Smash and Skill Link are really the only reasons to use Cloyster at all, since as a spinner it is outclassed by Mega Blastoise who possesses more mixed bulk and can beat Aegislash, and as a hazard supporter Skarmory and Ferrothorn are the better choices because of better defensive typing. Cloyster requires support in having either physically defensive Steel-types or Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Heatran removed in order to sweep an opponent's team. It also cannot break through bulky waters and weakness to rocks hinders it. Priority users (especially Scizor and Mega Lucario) can easily revenge kill it after taking out one mon, or scare it off before it smashes.
The advantage of Ninetales over Charizard is that 3 more turns of sun can make or break a clean sweep; remember you lose 3 turns of Sun because 1 turn from setting it, 1 turn on switching out, and 1 turn setting up a boosting move on the serrper. And considering if you are switching Charizard out immediately the next turn after switching it in, you might as well just use Ninetales. Charizard and Ninetales shouldn't even be compared because Ninetales's Sun is for its team, and Charizard's Sun is for itself.
There is a fine line between an auto weather user and a manual Prankster one. The difference is that if the auto user gets a free switch in, he can get out with almost no damage taken. That it significant for obvious reasons. In addition to that, manual weather starters set up weather on immunities/resists, while auto ones can do that on anything. Auto weather starters also have the additional utility to serve as a death fodder near endgame to allow a last stand for a clean sweep after weakening the opponent's team.
This is beside the point for the most part but Ninetales still have good damage potential in the Sun when fully invested so I think you are underestimating its offensive power here when you are calling it weak:
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 184-218 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
100% agree with the C- ranking for Cloyster. It's only viable set anymore is Shell Smash, which is still extremely hard to actually sweep with due to all the priority this gen. Not only that, but Cloyster has an extremely hard time breaking past bulky water types, or anything that resists Ice + Rock type moves (Which is steel typing, a typing on almost every team). However, when it's checks/counters are eliminated, and you are able to get up a boost, it can net a sweep, though this is very, very hard to do.
Why exactly are you comparing Ninetales and Mega Charizard-Y and then saying immediately after that they shouldn't be compared? Besides, everybody can see for themselves that three extra turns of Sun doesn't take away from the fact that Mega Charizard-Y is a much better pokemon, hence the S rank.
Your first difference between Drought and Sunny Day isn't even a real difference. You can say exactly the same thing about a Sunny Day user because you would bring them in on something that can't significantly damage you anyway. Next, Ninetales can not setup Sun on everything. Good luck bringing in Ninetales on anything that it has a weakness to like Tyranitar or Landorus-T and live to tell the tale. It faces the same issues as a Sunny Day user in that regard, and any other support pokemon for that matter. Last point is valid though again, Sunny Day users can do the same thing though they'd have to find a turn to come in first.
And yeah, a fully invested Ninetales can dish out good damage for a support mon, but its coverage is pitiful. Also, your calc is out of context, this is the damage against a defensive set (which would be the only one possibly switching in):
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 75.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Oh and just for reference:)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ninetales just isn't the go-to Sun setter anymore and people find this difficult to believe which is understandable. Sun isn't used a lot as it is, and people still need to adapt to changes in this new metagame. Hopefully people will start to actually use Sun before commenting on Ninetales so they realize that theorymon isn't the way to go as I showed reply after reply.
Escarlata was comparing Ninetales Damage output to mega Lucario, showcasing how powerful Ninetales's Fire Blast is in the sun. Mew was just being used as an example.
Oh yeah, in addition to my previous proposals (Manaphy and Thundurus to S; Machamp to C+), I'd like to suggest moving Deoxys-D to A+ rank. I don't think there's a more efficient hazards setter in the entire game, as he is fast enough to outpace most defensive threats, and is bulky enough to withstand multiple hits, even from some of the most powerful offensive Pokemon. While he is more vulnerable to fast Defoggers and set-up sweepers than his Speed counterpart, his superior bulk allows him to use items like Red Card, Leftovers, and even Rocky Helmet effectively.
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Sure Charizard is a better much better Pokemon, hence the S rank, but not for its sun support capabilities and rather for its wallbreaking capabilities, because most of the time, sun will just end by the time your switch Charizard out. Ninetales's sun is not for its own usage, but rather for teammates like offensive Chlorophyll Venusaur to set up and get a clean sweep if checks are removed. Three extra turns makes a big difference between whether you get a clean sweep, or you lose that important 3 turns of Chorophyll boost and is forced out/revenge killed.
The difference between a Drought user and a Sunny Day user is the fact that a Sunny Day user has to stay in for 1 turn to actually use it, which means in most cases, it will take a hit to use Sunny Day. In that regard, Ninetales has much more longevity than the likes of Whimsicott especially when you want to preserve the life of your sun setter. In your example of Lanrodus-T, Ninetales can pretty much come in after a slow U-turn or a double switch, get the sun up, and just gtfo and the sun is already up without taking a single damage, while manual setters like Whimsicott cannot claim the same feat, and considering both sun setters in question have no method of recovery when using Heat Rock, Ninetales will obviously live way longer than Whimsicott. Ninetales is also way better than Whimsicott when you desperately need the Sun up or risking getting swept.
If you still don't understand the simple advantage of automatic weather setters, I think I should give some examples to illustrate:
These examples aim to illustrate that the 1 turn saved from using Sunny Day is indeed quite significant when these scenarios I just illustrated is the kind of thing you see everyday if you play a sun team. I acknowledge that sun teams is not what it used to be from back in Gen V, but the fact that Ninetales is still the premier support for Sun sweepers is still a fact because not one other Sun setter can set up the sun as reliably as Ninetales - Whimsicott has to risk taking damage everytime it wants the sun up; Charizard simply doesn't give enough duration of sun to support its teammates.
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