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To those who talk about Mold Breaker not being worth it on Pinsir due to it only working if Rotom switches directly in - the glory of the ability is not that it can stop Rotom on a 100% reliable basis, but rather it makes the opposing Rotom user afraid to switch Rotom in at all. Like Gooey Goodra, the lingering possibility of the ability screwing over your opponent is more scary than the ability is in practice, but that's the reason you run it anyway - to put your opponent on edge.
Also, how long do we intend to continue the S and A+ rank discussion? There is something I've noticed on the viability list that I've wanted to address for a while but have been afraid to do so for fear of being labeled off-topic and having my post deleted.
How in any way does Pinsir shit on Rotom-W?
252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Earthquake is a guaranteed 2hko after rocks, so basically Rotom-W can't switch in fearing the Earthquake which means in fact it "can" shit on it, but basically it will just end up as a mind game anyway.
On paper Rotom-W seems borderline A+ S area, but from lots of experience i think it deserves S. The only thing that can constantly set up on Rotom-W and make its life miserable is Kyurem-B, as Charizard X is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. Also, besides the blobs nothing can comfortably switch into Rotom-W all of the time because of the threat of Volt Switch, Hydro Pump, and/or Will-O-Wisp. While Rotom-W may not sweep through teams, wall everything, or support teams like Drizzle Politoed in gen V, it does what it's supposed to consistently and well: counter top tier threats and provide it's teammates with unparalled momentum (besides Genesect which is now banned). The fact that it's so easy to slap on any team and consistently do it's job is what makes this annoying washing machine S rank material.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Rotom-W can wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost, can easily perform multiple roles effectively (defensive pivot, sp. def pivot, specs w/ trick, scarf w/ trick, etc.), and its flaws are thoroughly mitigated by its substantial strengths.
If this is not S rank then nothing is and anything that can achieve S rank should be banned.
Chunking half its HP when it's running a full defense set is pretty much shitting on him, the only way it could be shitting harder is if base Pinsir could actually score the assured 2HKO on Rotom without needing help from hazards.
And as long as we're talking about it, +2 Earthquake is a 75% chance to OHKO without hazards and Pinsir will always move before defensive Rotom.
Based on this alone Mold Breaker is easily the best ability base Pinsir can carry as it makes one of the best switch ins to his mega one of the worst. Rotom can't get in without paying for it in some way and he's one of the few flying resists without a ground weakness, Zapdos being the other relevant mon.
Sand fucking up Mega Venu wasn't my main argument as to why Mega Venusaur is not S rank material, it was just a way to show how easily you can shut down Mega Venu if you choose so. Sand is just one way of doing so, and just because it's not common it shouldn't be ignored, as it's a perfectly viable playstyle (it's great actually). The point is that even if Mega Venusaur walls a significant portion of your team (which doesn't happen most of the time), there are many ways to get around this. I can easily make a sand team that has three members walled by Mega Venusaur, and as long as i have Smooth Rock Hippo / Ttar and a solid switch-in to Mega Saur it won't matter, as it won't be able to hold those Pokemon back more than a couple of turns, while it gets easily walled in return. How much damage Mega Venusaur does to Hippowdon and Tyranitar doesn't really matter, as your team should have checks to Mega Venusaur anyway. It's not like Tyranitar and Hippowdon struggle to find switch in chances outside of Mega Venusaur.
As for the easy to wear down part, i already explained why it's even bigger of an issue for Mega Venusaur than for most other defensive Pokemon. First, Mega Venusaur is used as the main switch-in to Rotom-W, which means that Mega Venusaur will often be burned. Combine this with vulnerability to all kinds of passive damage other than Toxic and lack of Leftovers, and it's not hard at all to understand why Mega Venusaur is easier to wear down than other defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory, Clefable, Hippowdon, Blissey, etc. I will use this example one more time because it's a scenario that happens very often in practice, but a burned Mega Venusaur that switches in against Rotom-W's Volt Switch with SR up, loses 32% of its life minimum before getting forced out from the Pokemon that comes in next, at which point it is very hard to wall the Pokemon you are supposed to after.
As for the Pokemon you mentioned, i was talking about their most common sets, which Mega Venusaur fails to wall, and i was also takling about Mega Venusaur's most common and effective defensive set, Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Synthesis. SD LO Bisharp easily 2HKOes Mega Venusaur at +2, SD Mega Scizor uses it as set up bait, Gengar wins with a SpD drop from Shadow Ball, which it has plenty of chances to get, as you can't significantly damage it back. SpD Heatran burns Mega Venusaur which makes it laughably easy to wear down, which is why Mega Venusaur doesn't want to stay in against Heatran unless you have no other option. Tyranitar makes Synthesis ineffective, which means that if you switch into it, you will lose more health than you manage to heal with Synthesis / Leech Seed as a check/counter comes in and forces Mega Venusaur, so in the long run, Mega Venusaur is not a good answer to Tyranitar. My only bad example was Mega Gyarados, which still does ~50% damage with +1 Ice Fang, and it's not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur, as i already have mentioned (just use WoW Rotom-W and burn it on the first switch-in, and then use Volt Switch one more time, and there you have it, Mega Venusaur is in OHKO range of +1 Mega Gyarados).
Mega Venusaur was a good all-catch check to Mega Lucario, especially before you have scouted Mega Lucarios's set, which not many Pokemon could do. Also, being able to take one hit from +2 NP Mega Lucario and hit back for good damage with EQ / HP Fire definitely made Mega Venusaur a check to this beast, and made it much easier to handle in general. I never said that Mega Venusaur was a counter to Mega Lucario, but denying it was a good check is ignorant.
Finally, when did i ever imply that Mega Venusaur plays alone while the opponent has 6 Pokemon? Getting fucked up by WoW happens no matter what teammates you have, unless you have a cleric. Failing to wall more than half of the Pokemon in S and A rank happens no matter what teammates Meg Venusaur has. Getting worn down by repeated Volt-Switch and U-turn (with SR up) from Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Greninja, which Mega Venusaur is relied on to check, happens no matter what teammates you have, as it is Mega Venusaur's job to handle those threats. One could say that you should have strong anti-SR support, but any decent player knows that with the appropriate offensive presure, SR is easy to keep up, if not for the duration of the whole game, for most of it. Mega Venusaur simply isn't such a huge defensive presence anymore.
Failing to wall the majority of the best Pokemon in OU is a fact no matter what those Pokemon are. Saying that those Pokemon have STAB super effective coverage against Mega Venusaur or are offensive monsters is just sugarcoating the fact that Mega Venusaur can't deal with the majority of the best offensive threats. And do i really have to explain why performance against the S and A rank offensive Pokemon is way more relevant to judge Mega Venusaur's defensive potential in the metagame than performance against the offensive Pokemon in lower ranks? Because those are the best offensive threats, simple as that. If you want to call a Pokemon S rank by defensive criteria it's only logical that it should be able to wall the majority of the best offensive threats in the metagame, which Mega Venusaur can't do.
Yeah my bad about the Mega Gyarados comment. Also, showing that Mega Venusaur can survive CB Talonflame's Brave Bird means nothing, as you can't switch into it, you should never stay in against it, and there are many more offensive threats without even super effective STABs that can get past Mega Venusaur, such as SD Garchomp, LO Landorus, LO Terrakion (with or without SD), and LO SD Bisharp. It's just an empty statement meant to impress the ignorant, as any knowledgable player knows that getting past Mega Venusaur is not hard at all with the right support, or even without sometimes.
This would be true if i was nominating Rotom-W for S rank based solely on its defensive abilities, which is not the case. As i already mentioned, the combo of Rotom-W's defensive and supporting potential is what makes it S-rank worthy. No other Pokemon can provide so many free switches to frail Pokemon so consistently, all the while checking many dangerous offensive Pokemon.
Yes, you can shut down Mega Venusaur is you choose to, if you want to build your team around that idea. Back in the OU Beta I built a team specifically made to destroy Mega Gengar. A pokemon failing to deal well with a single team archetype is a bad example to use, as it is a single (in this case, uncommon) team type in a meta with many. And Venusaur has a type advantage over many sand abusers, so it can still fulfill an offensive role.
You also keep saying how Megasaur is easy to wear down, and then give a crash course on how to wear down every pokemon ever. How is Megasaur "easier to wear down then other defensive pokemon"? Most other defensive pokemon are hurt just as much by burn and chip damage, you have said nothing that applies directly to Mega Venusaur and no other defensive pokemon. Every problem you point out is just as easily applied to Skarmory, Heatran, etc. This is like those inane "luke dies to scarfers" arguments from the suspect thread, it's an argument that can be used for any pokemon. Not to mention how amazingly ironic it is that you are saying a pokemon with 3 forms of recovery should lose a rank because it can be worn down when you are nominating Rotom-W for S rank (I agree with Rotom for S though).
And, please, stop saying how Megasaur fails to wall "most of A Rank". I've already challenged that assertion, Mega venusaur walls or can wall a significant portion of A Rank. Scizor using it as setup bait? When it takes 70% from uninvested HP Fire and 5HKOs back? Yeah right. Tyranitar does 35% with Stone Miss and takes that much from Giga Drain, so it loses because Leech Seed and Giga Drain will be healing Megasaur for over half the damage it deals with a 80% accuracy attack. Gengar takes about 25% from Giga Drain, so it'd be a bit of a stalemate on whether or not Megasaur can get up Leech Seed or Gengar gets the SpDef drop, so again it's in Megasaur's favor because praying for a 10% chance to drop a stat is a pretty terrible way to beat something. If Saur is packing Knock Off, a fairly common move, it wins easily. Bisharp can beat it if it's LO and is at +2 when it faces Megasaur, but it cannot beat Saur 1v1. Heatran is 2HKOd be Earthquake and can do nothing but burn in return. Mega Venusaur walls more of A Rank than it doesn't.
And it doesn't matter which set you were talking about, a pokemon is rated based upon all possible sets. Venusaur has many sets and viable moves, which gives it a great versatility factor that is rather lacking in S Rank right now. And you continue to make the huge mistake of looking at Megasaur through the same lens as you would an offensive pokemon! Megasaur cannot wall every pokemon in the game, but it walls a very large amount. Because it is unrivalled in it's niche I say Megasaur should stay S Rank, stall needs representation damn it!
Quick nitpick, Sp.Def Rotom-W is quickly dropping in usage. This may change with the shift in OU with Lucarionite and Genesect being banned though. Most of the time, you'll see physically defensive Rotom-W. That being said, guaranteed 2HKO with EQ after rocks is a bit ridiculous.
I'm glad that people are finally realizing that you don't have to MEvolve right away for most mons; contrary to what in-game NPC's would like you to believe. (*cough*Diantha*cough*) Pinsir has been NU for years for a reason-it sucks. Its pretty slow and 9 times out of 10 you won't be sweeping with him alone. With this in mind, you should NEVER run Moxie on Pinsir because its much safer to just SD if you have the chance. Hyper Cutter is pretty situational for Lando-I. Personally, I don't feel comfortable leaving Pinsir or MPinsir in on a Lando anyway so the Intimidate drop is usually a non-issue. Mold Breaker is the best choice.
As much as I dislike it, MPinsir is a S-tier Pokemon and probably will be for a while.
May sound like a stupid question (because I havent read this post for the past week) but is this really just the place to just discuss the S and A ranked pokemon only from now on? :s
I skimmed a bit around the first post to see if anything was edited (and it was but it wasn't really clear what was edited. Probably the ranks or something) in regards to the rules on what to talk about (I'll probably skim it a bit more soon). Kinda hesitant to talk about pory2 or Slowking (believe it or not, slowbro's older cousin gets an OU analysis). :b
Because of the changes made by the bans, the mods are leading discussion on S and A primarily right now, but we will be moving down to B and C soon enough. In our own discussion (the one that decides the rankings) we will soon also be coming to consensus on which pokes (if anything) should be moved.
I have done a vs Mega Venusaur checklist and I found that is more an A+ pokemon than a S pokemon. It's an A+ pokemon because offensive presence, reliable recovery, great deffensive stats, only two weakness (and they are easily detectable), but has serious issues because (has a serious case of 4MSS, even with Poison types buffed, it has to deal with every Steel type, no Leftovers (the item to not-mega evolve; except select cases), having to decide between Leech Seed/Synthesis, the risk of sand (from Tyranitar) in play and his difficulty to have sun setup (Ninetales and Sunny Day).and that many threats can handle it.
Those flaws doesn't mean that Mega venusaur is not an excellent pokemon. But for having a S rank pokemon, the pokemon has to be "special" in his performance. If a pokemon is really good, but not extraordinary it's an A+ threat.
Stall teams are not that important because in january they got "UU usage". Obviously Mega Venusaur is not only to stall teams (it's usable in all type of teams except Heavy offense).
Same with Rotom-W; because for even more reason than Mega Venusaur. It's great vs physical threats (unless demolished it) but not that great with special sweepers that doesn't resist his most common attack. Also, Electric/Water is resisted by Grass and Dragon pokemon (specially relevant in special cases). Rotom-W will probably not broken in UU, and I know that the rest of S and A+ pokemon would be broken in UU without any discrepancy unlike other decisions (Staraptor is one).
The reason why it's 1st is casually one of the few pokemon that can deal with many top-threats at once: Talonflame, MPinsir, Landorus-T sat once while being a great pokemon, something that no other pokemon does. But outside this territory, there are a lot of pokemon that can check it, starting for every specially-based Grass type (Vileplume is a counter of Rotom-W). Also, Rotom-W beneficiated for a metagame very physically inclined. OIf special threats are common again (MCharizard Y, Offensive Heatran, Landorus-I, Manaphy, Thundurus-I, Gengar Greninja, Keldeo, Mega Gardevoir, Offensive Togekiss, Offensive Zapdos) many of them are usually deffensive or they have low usage (I only listed to B+). Many of those threats are a problem for Rotom-W and it can't reliable burn because the Special Attack sis not halved and risk that the sweeper holds Leftovers and not Life Orb.
I disagree.
I feel like garchomp got better in gen 6 compared to gen 5 (when it didn't have SV).
Its 102 speed got almost as trollish as it was in gen 4 due to the lack of the musketeers, weather genies, and late@s.
It's incredibly versatile and can run offensive/defensive support sets, scarf set, and sweeper set(s).
And it's damn good at all of the aforementioned categories.
I am strictly talking about the regular garchomp as I do not particularly like mega garchomp as much (primarily due to the mega limits).
edit: I feel like garchomp has a decent chance to be go up to S tier.
Garchomp is versatile and is powerful.
It is an incredible pokemon.
However, saying that his 102 speed is almost as trollish as it was in gen 4, where outrunning base 100s was far more significant than it is in gen6, is downright false. The fairy type's intro has not hurt garchomp that much but it still did.
I still fail to see how garchomp is so good that it's downright better than the rest of A+s.
Mega Venuasar is not an S class pokemon that's for sure , it doesn't really take much for some one to understand why , its a defensive pokemon classified S category so its supposed "wall significant portions of the metagame" well it doesn't as simple as that ,
those surprise earthqauke or hp fire sets have little to none usefulness , first in order to run such surprise sets you need to alter completely its role (movesets,spreads) making it worst on what its supposed to , wall staff and second wont even get that much out of them (earthqauke struggles to ko heatran hp fire wont even 2hko skarmory unless its an offensive venuasar etc ), sleep powder is mediocre unreliable move especially with the new nerf.
add to all that the fact it consumes a the mega mon slot in a team venuasar has no reason to be as high as it is.
You also keep saying how Megasaur is easy to wear down, and then give a crash course on how to wear down every pokemon ever. How is Megasaur "easier to wear down then other defensive pokemon"? Most other defensive pokemon are hurt just as much by burn and chip damage, you have said nothing that applies directly to Mega Venusaur and no other defensive pokemon. Every problem you point out is just as easily applied to Skarmory, Heatran, etc. This is like those inane "luke dies to scarfers" arguments from the suspect thread, it's an argument that can be used for any pokemon. Not to mention how amazingly ironic it is that you are saying a pokemon with 3 forms of recovery should lose a rank because it can be worn down when you are nominating Rotom-W for S rank (I agree with Rotom for S though).
And, please, stop saying how Megasaur fails to wall "most of A Rank". I've already challenged that assertion, Mega venusaur walls or can wall a significant portion of A Rank. Scizor using it as setup bait? When it takes 70% from uninvested HP Fire and 5HKOs back? Yeah right. Tyranitar does 35% with Stone Miss and takes that much from Giga Drain, so it loses because Leech Seed and Giga Drain will be healing Megasaur for over half the damage it deals with a 80% accuracy attack. Gengar takes about 25% from Giga Drain, so it'd be a bit of a stalemate on whether or not Megasaur can get up Leech Seed or Gengar gets the SpDef drop, so again it's in Megasaur's favor because praying for a 10% chance to drop a stat is a pretty terrible way to beat something. If Saur is packing Knock Off, a fairly common move, it wins easily. Bisharp can beat it if it's LO and is at +2 when it faces Megasaur, but it cannot beat Saur 1v1. Heatran is 2HKOd be Earthquake and can do nothing but burn in return. Mega Venusaur walls more of A Rank than it doesn't.
Having used Mega Venusaur myself, I have to say it is a somewhat strenuous task to keep Mega Venusaur's health high enough to wall threats comfortably. When alex said that Venusaur is easier to wear down than most defensive Pokemon, he meant that passive damage can force Venusaur to heal more often than most defensive Pokemon would need to. If a Pokemon lacks passive recovery, is susceptible to entry hazard damage, and cannot get rid of its status problems, it would usually spend more time healing than actually fighting back.
I think alex exaggerated a little when he said Venusaur fails to wall more than half of S and A, but it's true that the other S Ranks do give Venusaur trouble. Its matchup against A Ranks is also dictated by its moveset, and with 4 moves it can only wall so much at a time. Without Hidden Power Fire, Scizor can overwhelm you; without Earthquake Heatran can burn stall your Synthesis PP; without either attack Swords Dance Bisharp & Mega Mawile can also hammer Venusaur; Gengar with Pain Split can beat Venusaur without Knock Off....stuff like that. Thanks to its (small) case of 4MSS, Venusaur can only wall a limited number of A rank Pokes at a time (which is still quite a number admittedly).
Mega Venuasar is not an S class pokemon that's for sure , it doesn't really take much for some one to understand why , its a defensive pokemon classified S category so its supposed "wall significant portions of the metagame" well it doesn't as simple as that ,
those surprise earthqauke or hp fire sets have little to none usefulness , first in order to run such surprise sets you need to alter completely its role (movesets,spreads) making it worst on what its supposed to , wall staff and second wont even get that much out of them (earthqauke struggles to ko heatran hp fire wont even 2hko skarmory unless its an offensive venuasar etc ), sleep powder is mediocre unreliable move especially with the new nerf.
add to all that the fact it consumes a the mega mon slot in a team venuasar has no reason to be as high as it is.
First of all, elaborate on how Venu fails to wall more then half the metagame. I've already shown it does. Don't just say it doesn't and fail to provide any reasoning.
Second, Earthquake and HP Fire are not gimmick sets, they're quite common in fact, because Heatran and Scizor/Ferrothorn are very common switchins to M-Venu and as such the ability to take them out is invaluable. Those moves also provide great coverage for other things outside of 4x weaknesses, such as Aegislash and Skarmory. Earthquake does about 70% to Heatran with no investment and a hindering nature, I have no idea how that's "struggling to KO".
Third, there is no reason NOT to run more offensive sets. M-Venu's stats and movepool allow it to fill a variety of roles effectively, so an offensive Venusaur is very much in the question. This also cements Venu's S Rank as it's a very versatile mega, able to wall, phase, attack, spread status... the only thing it can't do that it would like to do is set hazards.
Fourth, M-Venu has very little if any competition for a Mega Slot, because it's the only good defensive mega. If you want a defensive mega, Venu's your best option by a significant margin. As such the argument that it competes for a mega slot cannot be used against him, because it's a problem that practically doesn't exist.
You also keep saying how Megasaur is easy to wear down, and then give a crash course on how to wear down every pokemon ever. How is Megasaur "easier to wear down then other defensive pokemon"? Most other defensive pokemon are hurt just as much by burn and chip damage, you have said nothing that applies directly to Mega Venusaur and no other defensive pokemon. Every problem you point out is just as easily applied to Skarmory, Heatran, etc. This is like those inane "luke dies to scarfers" arguments from the suspect thread, it's an argument that can be used for any pokemon. Not to mention how amazingly ironic it is that you are saying a pokemon with 3 forms of recovery should lose a rank because it can be worn down when you are nominating Rotom-W for S rank (I agree with Rotom for S though).
Walls traditionally heal through Leftovers and Recover or an equivalent like Roost or Slack Off. Between Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain, Venusaur can heal a lot more than that under good conditions, but it has no method for fully passive healing when it doesn't even have the chance to set up a Leech Seed, and Synthesis drops a ton in effectiveness in bad weather.
Walls traditionally heal through Leftovers and Recover or an equivalent like Roost or Slack Off. Between Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Giga Drain, Venusaur can heal a lot more than that under good conditions, but it has no method for fully passive healing when it doesn't even have the chance to set up a Leech Seed, and Synthesis drops a ton in effectiveness in bad weather.
As a wall, Venusaur gets many chances to set up Leech Seed in my experience. Synthesis is hindered by bad weather I'll admit, but with the weather nerf it isn't too difficult to just wait until that weather is gone, assuming the opponent even has weather to begin with. This is compounded by the fact that M-Venu can 2HKO Politoed and Hippowdon and does decent damage to Tyranitar, so sending in a weather inducer against it is not a great idea.
I feel that the impact of Leftovers is extremely overrated. It's a great item but some arguments (not referring to you specifically, Thorhammer) make it seem like the lack of lefties completely eliminates Venu's viability. Walls often run other items over leftovers- Air Balloon, Red Card, and Rocky Helmet for example. It's not some end-all, be-all item for defensive ability, and I feel Venu's 3 forms of recovery- one of which is it's main STAB attack- make up for not regenerating 6% health every turn.
Do note that the OU mods are well aware the descriptions for the various ranks in this thread are not very specific and not the most useful. We're working on coming up with better descriptions, and actually Alex is leading the effort on that front.
Maybe we should do that first? Discussing the ranking of a poke without having a proper definition for every rank is kinda pointless imo. According to the current definition in the opener mega venu is S class. It walls the majority of the meta and doesnt need any support aside from something to check the few things it cant handle it self. Even in S and A+ it can still take on more than half of the threats.
I don't think being "easy to slap onto a team" justifies S Rank. Gen 5 Scizor was absurdly easy to chuck onto your team to fulfill a variet of roles simultaneously, but it wasn't S rank material. Rotom-W is also set up bait for several dangerous threats, as already mentioned (in fact, this is one of the criteria for B-rank). Kyu-B, Sub SD or Lum Berry Garchomp, Mega Charizard X, and bulky Calm Mind Clefable come to mind as dangerous threats who can set up all over Rotom-W. Of course, it's a fantastic pivot and it *checks* a large amount of Pokemon, but it does not belong in S rank, keep it in A+.
I leave the thread for a little to help with family, school, and to get a new computer...and all I've read throughout the several pages since the Suspect Test is a whole bunch of circlejerking (you all like to do that, don't you?). As far as changes go, I'd say after all the changes made, the list itself is fine. Pinsir is fine, Aegislash is fine, Zard...as much as I don't like saying it, is fine...yeah, everything is cool.
I WILL touch upon Excadrill for a little bit and wonder if it should go up to A+. Excadrill is, hands down, the best Hazard Remover in the game. Defog removes your own hazards and the best defogger is...NOT above Excadrill in rank (arguable, but I hear Latias, Mew, and Mandibuzz are the three big ones). This little mole is still a very annoying, but not game breaking, thankfully. I can't say it is A+ material, but I can't say if it should stay only as A. Bit of a borderline and I'll use it more to form a much more structured opinion.
I've also seen Thundurus-I for S Rank posts and I'm entirely unsure as to how I should feel (that happens a lot), therefore I cannot add anything. I WILL play more with it to form an opinion, though.
U-turn Landorus-T, Zapdos (its got all three pivot moves), and Defog Mega-Scizor are all pivots that are just as good at providing pivot support to a team and there own brand of support: SR, Defog / Twave / Baton Pass (so underrated js), Defog + strong priority (Bullet Punch) respectively. The support they bring is a lot more significant than Rotom-W's (I see Will-o-Wisp as an extension to moveset to check threats). They all have more or similar bulk to Rotom-W with a good palette of resists too. In addition they are all stronger than Rotom-W too.
On the threat front, let's see what these guys can check
Lando-T: Charizard X, Excadrill, Garchomp, Lando-T, Mega Mawile, Terrakion
Zapdos: Mega-Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus-I, certain Excadrill, Landorus-I,
Mega Scizor: Kyurem-B, Lando-T, Mega-Mawile (non Fire Fang), Lati@s, Deoxys-D / Deoxys-S
The Pokemon in bold are Pokemon I consider to be big threats in the tier. These Pokemon are the same or just as relevant threats as the ones you listed in your post that Rotom-W checks. So your statement of:
isn't true. I think what you and others who are nominating Rotom-W to S rank are getting hung up on is that Rotom-W is the only OU Pokemon that counters into and pivots out of Talonflame + Pinsir (and the other stuff). I don't disagree that isn't very important or very cool, especially for the offensive teams that Rotom-W is going to find itself on. However, there are threats to offensive teams just as big as those two such as Thundurus-I and Deoxys-S. The pivots I listed above can take care of those big threats (+more) and offer support outside of pivoting that is better than Rotom-W's Will-o-Wisp, SR / Defog primarily. Considering that, it doesn't seem Rotom-W's pivoting capabilities in addition to its support are beyond the capabilities or usefulness of other pivots in the tier, especially the three I listed, that would make it deserving to go up to S rank.
The difference between Rotom-W and all the other pivots you mentioned is that Rotom-W can force more Pokemon out in 1 v 1 scenarios and is much harder to shut down, unlike the aforementioned Pokemon. Thanks to only one relatively rare weakness, great dual STABs, and WoW, Rotom-W forces out or is forced out by less Pokemon that all the other pivots. Not only this, but shutting it down is very hard without Blissey, Chansey, or Celebi, unlike all the other Pokemon you mentioned. Any Pokemon dislikes burns and Fire-types can't even switch in as they are afraid of Hydro Pump. The combination of WoW + Volt Switch wears down quickly even the best answers to Rotom-W, while this is not a problem against Scizor or Landorus-T. As long as you wall Landorus-T and Scizor, it is usually enough to keep them in check, but the same can't be said about Rotom-W. For example, Mega Venusaur completely walls Rotom-W the same way that Skarmory walls Landorus-T and Scizor. However, Rotom-W can get past Mega Venusaur much easier than the other two Pokemon get past Skarmory, even though both Mega Venusaur and Skarmory are hard counters to Rotom-W and Scizor / Lando-T respectively. The same is true for Zapdos, which has two very common weaknesses, is weak to Stealth Rock, and is very easy to shut down with a lot of Pokemon, unlike Rotom-W.
TrippingRocks said:
Sand weakens Synthesis. M-Venusaur still has 2 other ways of recovery.
Anything that doesn't have Magic Guard or Natural Cure will be easier to wear down if they get burnt. Couple in entry hazards and taking an attack as you switch in, no duh M-Venusaur gets worn down. Did you know a burned Skarmory takes about 34% damage on an Adamant CB Scizor's U-turn if it switches into rocks? If you factor in leftovers, it's about 28% damage instead. Ohh man, and then that Skarmory gets forced out by the obligatory fire switch in. I guess this makes Skarmory "easy" to wear down? If you don't want a crippled wall, then don't switch it in on something that can burn/toxic it. The previous statement is literally applicable to every wall that's not Blissey, Chansey, or Clefable.
The most common M-Venusaur wall set can't wall everything? No really? Certain offensive pokemon can set-up on it? And what mystical wall do we know of that doesn't have some sort of pokemon that CAN'T set-up on it? M-Venusaur is not some hulking fortress that can wall everything or prevent everything from setting up. Nor is any other wall in the game. Blissey can't do much to stop a Gengar from setting up a sub. Ferrothorn can't do much to stop Scizor from swords dancing. Stating that a +2 LO Bisharp can 2HKO a M-Venusaur is kinda... irrelevant. What pokemon is not 2HKO by a +2 LO Bisharp? Mandibuzz is 2HKO by Iron Head. Skarmory and Hippodon is 2HKO by Knock Off.
What distinguishes M-Venusaur from literally every other wall in the game is that he has THE most offensive presence of them all. 123 Sp Atk and 100 atk, even when uninvested, can still hit fairly hard. Great bulk, great offensive stats, great typing, great ability, great movepool. Oh yeah, but he doesn't have leftovers and burn weakens him as a wall (because I guess burn doesn't make any other wall less effective). Lol. You don't even need to use him as a wall. Use him as a tank! Giga Drain, Synthesis, HP fire, and Sludge Bomb works fantastic on him because so little things can 2HKO M-Venusaur as long as it's not super-effective or a +2 hit. If Heatran gives you a headache, get EQ instead!
0- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
M-Venusaur doesn't even need investments to 2HKO a Heatran. Give him a little bit more attack and it could easily be an OHKO.
Mega Venusaur has two more ways of healing? Yeah ok. Two other ways that fail to heal more than 12% of your life in a single turn while you get forced out. Good luck staying alive with those two ways of healing against any decent offensive team.
And how exactly would Skarmory get burned? I am mentioning how a burned Mega Venusaur is so easy to wear down because Mega Venusaur often gets burned because it is used as a Rotom-W switch in. Skarmory doesn't have that problem because it's not aiming to deal with anything that can burn it. Mentoining how easy Skarmory is to wear down when burned is completely irrelevant because this never happens. Not to mention that you ignored the lack of Leftovers, which makes a big difference in the long run.
It's not that certain Pokemon can set up on it or that certain Pokemon can get past it, it's that a lot of Pokemon can do this. Of course Mega Venusaur still checks/walls many threats, but this is not enough to put it in S rank. It doesn't even wall a single threat from S rank, which are considered the best offensive Pokemon. And even when it does wall a big portion of your team, it's not hard at all to overhwelm it, as i have already explained. An S rank defensive Pokemon should be as hard to get past as S rank offensive Pokemon are hard to wall or stop, but that's not the case.
Use him as a tank, use him as a wall, whatever, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it doesn't wall enough stuff to be in S rank, nor does it have the ability to last long enough to keep the Pokemon it wants in check for long enough, and it's not hard to wall either, so while Mega Venusaur's power is definitely great, it's nothing special in comparison to other walls / tanks (and Aegislash has definitely established a very high standard when it comes to power amongst tanks).
Yes, you can shut down Mega Venusaur is you choose to, if you want to build your team around that idea. Back in the OU Beta I built a team specifically made to destroy Mega Gengar. A pokemon failing to deal well with a single team archetype is a bad example to use, as it is a single (in this case, uncommon) team type in a meta with many. And Venusaur has a type advantage over many sand abusers, so it can still fulfill an offensive role.
You also keep saying how Megasaur is easy to wear down, and then give a crash course on how to wear down every pokemon ever. How is Megasaur "easier to wear down then other defensive pokemon"? Most other defensive pokemon are hurt just as much by burn and chip damage, you have said nothing that applies directly to Mega Venusaur and no other defensive pokemon. Every problem you point out is just as easily applied to Skarmory, Heatran, etc. This is like those inane "luke dies to scarfers" arguments from the suspect thread, it's an argument that can be used for any pokemon. Not to mention how amazingly ironic it is that you are saying a pokemon with 3 forms of recovery should lose a rank because it can be worn down when you are nominating Rotom-W for S rank (I agree with Rotom for S though).
And, please, stop saying how Megasaur fails to wall "most of A Rank". I've already challenged that assertion, Mega venusaur walls or can wall a significant portion of A Rank. Scizor using it as setup bait? When it takes 70% from uninvested HP Fire and 5HKOs back? Yeah right. Tyranitar does 35% with Stone Miss and takes that much from Giga Drain, so it loses because Leech Seed and Giga Drain will be healing Megasaur for over half the damage it deals with a 80% accuracy attack. Gengar takes about 25% from Giga Drain, so it'd be a bit of a stalemate on whether or not Megasaur can get up Leech Seed or Gengar gets the SpDef drop, so again it's in Megasaur's favor because praying for a 10% chance to drop a stat is a pretty terrible way to beat something. If Saur is packing Knock Off, a fairly common move, it wins easily. Bisharp can beat it if it's LO and is at +2 when it faces Megasaur, but it cannot beat Saur 1v1. Heatran is 2HKOd be Earthquake and can do nothing but burn in return. Mega Venusaur walls more of A Rank than it doesn't.
And it doesn't matter which set you were talking about, a pokemon is rated based upon all possible sets. Venusaur has many sets and viable moves, which gives it a great versatility factor that is rather lacking in S Rank right now. And you continue to make the huge mistake of looking at Megasaur through the same lens as you would an offensive pokemon! Megasaur cannot wall every pokemon in the game, but it walls a very large amount. Because it is unrivalled in it's niche I say Megasaur should stay S Rank, stall needs representation damn it!
You don't have to build your team around shutting down Mega Venusaur to do it. I have already mentioned multiple ways and strategies to do this that don't revolve around shutting down Mega Venusaur but have a lot of applications in this metagame in general, so just check my last posts.
I keep saying how easy Mega Venusaur is to wear down because it is, and in fact much easier than most defensive Pokemon. Lack of Leftovers is a real problem. Getting fucked by burn is a real problem when you are expected to act as a switch-in to Rotom-W. Vulnerability to sand is a real problem. You can't deny this. Most other defensive Pokemon have Leftovers, are not expected to take burns on a daily basis, and if they are they have ways around it (Magic Guard Clefable, Blissey, Chansey, Celebi), and most defensive Pokemon can still function just fine against rain and sand teams. So no, those problems i mentioned certainly don't apply to most defensive Pokemon. Also, your Mega Lucario comparison was completely irrelevant, and you totally missed why i was nominating Rotom-W for S rank.
I am not going to talk about which Pokemon Mega Venusaur does and which doesn't wall, as most of us know this already. I have already explained why the stuff that Mega Venusaur stops and the efficiency with which it does it are not enough to put him in S rank, so no need to say it again.
Walls , special attackers some times beat it on the switch with shadow ball
Fails , 2 fire blast and its down to cinders , cant even win it on 1 to one
Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Fails miserably , its even unable to ko with sludge bomb how is supposed to switch on it
Fails ,earth power does a fuck load as well the super common psychic, gd wont ko
walls , his not the best on doing that though because of the WoW exposure
Fails the lead one gets 2 layers before you say cancer, the offensive.. do i even need to say ?
Fails miserably
Fails , banded, mixed , under sand , or DD sets from the mega one beat it on the switch, gd wont 3hko this guy, it even loses many times 1v1
Fails , terravolt is the reason why
walls , those weird np - hp flying sets destroy him though
Fails Classic dd/band and sub sets and pretty much every set bypass it because of the lack of offensive presence
walls , well it struggles to do so , people are starting to use extrasensory a lot lately
walls, it wont stop it from using puddles though so its not the best check around.
Fails , because it cant scratch it
Fails the banded one can u-turn on it a million times , the sd ones fodder it like there is not tomorrow
Fails (it doesn't wall consistently ) The classic banded ones beat it even on 1vs1 at turn 3, don't make me show you the battle algorithm , it cant stop it after a dd of its most common set, the mega one after a dance , 3 turns of consecutive stone edge hits are possible and happen most of the time 80%^3=51% (rough estimation )
Fails
Fails miserably , lati@s rape it
Fails the mega ones with the extremely common ice fang beat it because of Mold breaker
Walls , not that its hard to wall keldeo outside of rain , rain boosted hydro pumps 2hko though
Fails miserably
Walls , its really good that there is something that perfectly wall this guy
Walls , the same with azumarill
Walls it walls anything thats not sd , it wont stop it from using rocks though
Fails , don't try walling the wall
Walls , its pretty good at it
Fails , it loses most of the times , the recoil some times kills both , that is not the case with most not banded sets though
thats more like less than 30% of wall-able pokemon ,
earthquake surprise sets are bad and dont change much ,baloon or bulky heatran still take an earthquake , offensive sets cant be walled and defensive ones can still easily beat it most of the times , i have the battle algorithm ready
bisharp still beats it after a sd , so venausar cant wall it -stop it
hp fire is even worse it pretty much requires a offensive spread forcing him lose many of the pokemon that it checks and even then ,most scizor still beat it with +2 bug bite and hp fire is unable to 1hko back
, it kills skarmory after about 10 turns of roost stall thats the most it can get after genesect ban.
Do note that the OU mods are well aware the descriptions for the various ranks in this thread are not very specific and not the most useful. We're working on coming up with better descriptions, and actually Alex is leading the effort on that front.
From my personal standpoint, asking an S-tier defensive threat to wall the majority of S/A+/A threats is a bit too much (they are after all, the top threats of the meta), and not something any Pokemon can do.
HOWEVER-- it is undeniable that performance against S/A+/A threats is critical to the real value of a defensive Pokemon. While a "majority" is a bit much-- I'd say that an S tier Defensive Mon should be a very good check to key S/A+ mons, and be able to switch-in safely against at least 3-4 of them with relative impunity.
This is something that you can't really say about Mega Venusaur (anymore).
Ironically, it's also a definition that Rotom-W DOES live up to-- since it checks Pinsir (an S threat) better than else, switches into Talonflame and Heatran basically flawlessly, and is a good check to both Landorus-T and Landorus-I (being a flat-out counter to Lando-I if it goes specially defensive, while standard physically defensive Rotom almost always counters Lando-T).
Yeah I still have a few problems with alexwolf's argument (his reply to my last post this time). According to him (and he can correct me if he believes I misunderstood) a S rank defensive pokemon - such as Mega Venusaur in this case - should be able to wall the majority of the highest ranked pokemon (more specifically S, A+ and A). For one, not one pokemon can do that. Aegislash has few counters. Mega Pinsir has possibly even less, and Mega Charizard (due to you not knowing whether it is X or Y beforehand) has virtually none. It already stops three (or four, depending on how you view MegaZard Y and MegaZard X) pokemon in S rank, so it already becomes apparent that these kind of criteria are - no offense - ridiculous.
So my reply to this will be that nothing can wall the majority of the higher ranks in XY OU. I don't think one pokemon accomplished this in previous gens though my memory may fail me here. This gen there was undeniably a huge power creep with Mega pokemon and such. The only pokemon that walls the majority of the metagame (not just the higher ranks!) this gen is Mega Venusaur, no matter how you turn it. Reasons for this have been repeated many times so I won't elaborate for no reason. I think that should be the main motivation to keep Mega Venusaur in S. The number of pokemon that it walls is just unmatched compared to any other wall, whether it be specially, physically or mixed defensive.
Another reason as to why I believe his argument is flawed is that people don't exclusively use S, A+ and A rank pokemon. Everything on the list is - and should be - used in XY OU. There's just no way to justify putting Mega Venusaur against only the best of the best pokemon when judging it's potential (especially pokemon that have massive type-advantages against Mega Venusaur or are wallbreakers, like Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard Y respectively as alexwolf suggested).
So in short, be fair when judging Mega Venusaur and don't suggest obviously disadvantageous matchups as a reason to bring Mega Venusaur down from S rank. It's by far the best all around wall and fits on nearly any team, so it should be ranked as such.
Mega Venusaur has two more ways of healing? Yeah ok. Two other ways that fail to heal more than 12% of your life in a single turn while you get forced out. Good luck staying alive with those two ways of healing against any decent offensive team.
And how exactly would Skarmory get burned? I am mentioning how a burned Mega Venusaur is so easy to wear down because Mega Venusaur often gets burned because it is used as a Rotom-W switch in. Skarmory doesn't have that problem because it's not aiming to deal with anything that can burn it. Mentoining how easy Skarmory is to wear down when burned is completely irrelevant because this never happens. Not to mention that you ignored the lack of Leftovers, which makes a big difference in the long run.
It's not that certain Pokemon can set up on it or that certain Pokemon can get past it, it's that a lot of Pokemon can do this. Of course Mega Venusaur still checks/walls many threats, but this is not enough to put it in S rank. It doesn't even wall a single threat from S rank, which are considered the best offensive Pokemon. And even when it does wall a big portion of your team, it's not hard at all to overhwelm it, as i have already explained. An S rank defensive Pokemon should be as hard to get past as S rank offensive Pokemon are hard to wall or stop, but that's not the case.
Use him as a tank, use him as a wall, whatever, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it doesn't wall enough stuff to be in S rank, nor does it have the ability to last long enough to keep the Pokemon it wants in check for long enough, and it's not hard to wall either, so while Mega Venusaur's power is definitely great, it's nothing special in comparison to other walls / tanks (and Aegislash has definitely established a very high standard when it comes to power amongst tanks).
You don't have to build your team around shutting down Mega Venusaur to do it. I have already mentioned multiple ways and strategies to do this that don't revolve around shutting down Mega Venusaur but have a lot of applications in this metagame in general, so just check my last posts.
I keep saying how easy Mega Venusaur is to wear down because it is, and in fact much easier than most defensive Pokemon. Lack of Leftovers is a real problem. Getting fucked by burn is a real problem when you are expected to act as a switch-in to Rotom-W. Vulnerability to sand is a real problem. You can't deny this. Most other defensive Pokemon have Leftovers, are not expected to take burns on a daily basis, and if they are they have ways around it (Magic Guard Clefable, Blissey, Chansey, Celebi), and most defensive Pokemon can still function just fine against rain and sand teams. So no, those problems i mentioned certainly don't apply to most defensive Pokemon. Also, your Mega Lucario comparison was completely irrelevant, and you totally missed why i was nominating Rotom-W for S rank.
I am not going to talk about which Pokemon Mega Venusaur does and which doesn't wall, as most uf us know this already. I have already explained why the stuff that Mega Venusaur stops and the efficiency with which it does it are not enough to put him in S rank, so no need to say it again.
... I wasn't arguing about Rotom. I agree with Rotom for S. I was pointing out something ironic about your argument- that is, how apparently getting worn down is perfectly fine for one defensive pokemon but a horrible, completely damning flaw for another.
Your argument is very focused on Mega Venusaur stopping Rotom-W. Stopping Rotom-W is nice but Venusaur's capabilities go beyond that. You are ignoring many of Venusaur's other capabilities in exchange for talking about how it can be burned and how it's best recovery is nerfed by a rare team type that only reduces healing for a few turns anyway. It has other functions you know. It walls most of the metagame, it's a great team supporter, it can fulfill a variety of roles, there is little opportunity cost to using it. All points you have failed to address. You are also exaggerating many of your arguments, Venusaur isn't completely fucked by Burn, the residual damage sucks but otherwise it doesn't really matter. If you're going to keep repeating the same argument then I will too: Venusaur has 3 forms of recovery, it can deal with residual damage quite well. Synthesis is nerfed by weather but Giga Drain is super-effective against many abusers of rain and sand while Venu can tank rain-boosted Water attacks, so, as I said in my previous post, it can still fulfill a fine role against those teams even without Synthesis.
Defensive pokemon may not be expected to take burns regularly, but guess what: they do. Status is one of the best ways to break a wall and as such many defensive pokemon find themselves statused very quickly. Your argument is still a simple catchall that cannot be applied only to Mega Venusaur, just because it might be burned more doesn't make it any easier to wear down then anything else.
As I've said before, you are looking at Venusaur the wrong way. Specifically, your idea that Venusaur should be able to wall entire teams by itself, as some sweepers can sweep entire teams by themselves. However, such an idea is an impossibility. There are too many threats in the meta for a single defensive pokemon to wall alone. Defenses come in cores for this very reason. Mega Venusaur walls more of the metagame then any other pokemon and pairs fantastically with many other pokemon (Skarmory, Heatran, Rotom-W). Ajwf said earlier that Stall is the ultimate team-player strategy. That is true. No stall pokemon can handle everything. Venusaur handles more then any other, however.
Your statement regarding Magic Guard and other status-healing pokemon is true, Magic Guard prevents Burn from hurting those pokemon. However, most have worse defensive stats then Mega Venusaur so while burn doesn't hurt them, direct attacks sure will. Attacks that Venusaur would have shrugged off. In the blobs' case, they may be better special walls but everyone knows how they fare against physical attacks, so they are generally inferior walls compared to Venusaur.
Venusaur is probably the best general wall in the metagame, it has great versatility, it can fulfill many roles. The chance to get burned and the fact it loses healing against a rare team type it has a type advantage against is not enough to move it down.
Walls , special attackers some times beat it on the switch with shadow ball
Fails , 2 fire blast and its down to cinders , cant even win it on 1 to one
Fails , cant stop it after a dd or after damage, it even loses 1vs1 a lot of times
Fails miserably , its even unable to ko with sludge bomb how is supposed to switch on it
Fails ,earth power does a fuck load as well the super common psychic, gd wont ko
walls , his not the best on doing that though because of the WoW exposure
Fails the lead one gets 2 layers before you say cancer, the offensive.. do i even need to say ?
Fails miserably
Fails , banded, mixed , under sand , or DD sets from the mega one beat it on the switch, gd wont 3hko this guy, it even loses many times 1v1
walls , those weird np - hp flying sets destroy him though
Fails Classic dd/band and sub sets and pretty much every set bypass it because of the lack of offensive presence
walls , well it struggles to do so , people are starting to use extrasensory a lot lately
walls, it wont stop it from using puddles though so its not the best check around.
Fails , because it cant scratch it
Fails the banded one can u-turn on it a million times , the sd ones fodder it like there is not tomorrow
Fails (it doesn't wall consistently ) The classic banded ones beat it even on 1vs1 at turn 3, don't make me show you the battle algorithm , it cant stop it after a dd of its most common set, the mega one after a dance , 3 turns of consecutive stone edge hits are possible and happen most of the time 80%^3=51% (rough estimation )
Fails
Fails miserably , lati@s rape it
Fails the mega ones with the extremely common ice fang beat it because of Mold breaker
Walls , not that its hard to wall keldeo outside of rain , rain boosted hydro pumps 2hko though
Fails miserably
Walls , its really good that there is something that perfectly walls this guy
Walls , the same with azumarill
Walls it wall anything thats not sd , it wont stop it from using rocks though
Fails , don't try walling the wall
Walls , its pretty good at it
Fails , it loses most of the times , the recoil some times kills both , that is not the case with most not banded sets though
thats more like less than 33% of wall-able pokemon
earthquake surprise sets are bad and dont change much ,baloon or bulky heatran still take an earthquake , offensive sets cant be walled and defensive ones can still easily beat it most of the times , i have the battle algorithm ready
bisharp still beats it after a sd , so venausar cant wall it -stop it
hp fire is even worse it pretty much requires a offensive spread forcing him lose many of the pokemon that it checks and even then ,most scizor still beat it with +2 bug bite and hp fire is unable to 1hko back
, it kills skarmory after about 10 turns of roost stall that the most it can get after genesect ban.
Will you please clean up your posts. They look like a 10-year old typed them, the syntax, punctuation and grammar is terrible. Sorry for being a jackass but it's true.
Your list is wrong, and includes examples that I've already addressed numerous times. You keep insisting that HP Fire and EQ sets are terrible when, if you look at your list, more then half of things it "fails" against are dealt with through HP Fire or Earthquake. Not a gimmick when those moves handle so much, stop assuming that Venu has to go all-out wall with just Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain, Venu's versatility is one of it's biggest selling points. It can go offensive if it wants, said sets can be quite effective.
Specific examples of wrong things on your list:
Heatran easily gets 2HKOd by EQ. I've told you this already.
0- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 92-110 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Mega Gyarados was debunked about 4 times within the last few pages after Alexwolf said the same thing.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
Tyranitar: You are ignoring Giga Drain's healing effect. It isn't a 3HKO after that. Venusaur outspeeds, so it wins.
Bisharp can win if Venu switches in on the SD but cannot win 1v1. Also, if Venusaur carries Sleep Powder (another large part of it's viability I haven't addressed), then it wins.
Mega Mawile has a small chance to 2HKO Venu while Venu ouspeeds and 3HKOs with EQ or HP Fire. Very tricky matchup considering SD for Mawile and Leech Seed for Venu, unless Venusaur carries Sleep Powder in which case it wins.
Scizor gets 2HKOd by HP Fire, is outsped, and does little damage even if banded.
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 118-139 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 Bug Bite? 2HKOs. Good thing Venusaur outspeeds! SD on the switch, HP Fire, Bug Bite, HP Fire, dead Scizor. Bug Bite + Bullet Punch fails to kill, even with 2 maximum damage roles.
Since we're judging Venusaur as a Defensive threat, we want to look at its ability to switch into and reliably beat Pokemon in the top threats of the Meta.
This is how I would approach the list:
O - Is a good switch in and can reliably win X - Is a good switch in but has a good chance of losing or ending up in the worse position XX - is NOT a good switch-in and loses OR cannot gain an advantageous position easily
This is using ANY reasonable Venusaur set, because the idea is the ability to tailor a defensive Pokemon to match certain threats is good strategy.
However, it's also assuming ANY legitimate set on the target Pokemon as well (with Extrasensory Greninja and SD Lando-T being certainly legitimate)
Here's this list
S Rank:
Aegislash - XX (Venusaur is NOT a good switch-in to Aegislash, and cannot gain an advantage against it easily)
Charizard - XX
Charizard - XX
Pinsir - XX
Venusaur - X
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Deoxys-S - XX
Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega) - XX
Heatran - X (must be mega evolved and specially defensive with EQ)
Kyurem-B - XX
Landorus-I - XX
Landorus-T - X
Manaphy - X
Rotom-W - X
Talonflame - XX
Thundurus-I - X
A Rank
Azumarill - O
Bisharp - X
Conkeldurr - O
Deoxys-D - XX
Dragonite - XX
Excadrill - X
Gengar - XX
Greninja - X
Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega) - X
Keldeo - O
Latias - XX
Latios - XX
Mamoswine - XX
Mandibuzz - X
Mawile (Mega) - X
Scizor / Scizor (Mega) - XX
Terrakion - X
Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega) - XX
A- Rank
Clefable - O
Skarmory - XX
O - 4 (3 A, 1 A-, 0 S/A+)
X - 13
XX - 21
Not a pretty picture to say the least.
Interestingly, if we do the same thing for Rotom-W
S Rank:
Aegislash - XX
Charizard - XX
Charizard - XX
Pinsir - O
Venusaur - XX
A Rank:
A+ Rank
Deoxys-S - XX
Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega) - X
Heatran - O
Kyurem-B - XX
Landorus-I - O (Must be Specially Defensive)
Landorus-T - O
Manaphy - XX
Rotom-W - X
Talonflame - O
Thundurus-I - XX
A Rank
Azumarill - X
Bisharp - X
Conkeldurr - XX
Deoxys-D - XX
Dragonite - X
Excadrill - XX
Gengar - XX
Greninja - O (must be Specially defensive to do so)
Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega) - O / XX (flawless counter to regular Gyara, gets f'd up by Mega)
Keldeo - X
Latias - XX
Latios - XX
Mamoswine - O
Mandibuzz - O
Mawile (Mega) - X
Scizor / Scizor (Mega) - O
Terrakion - XX
Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega) - XX
A- Rank
Clefable - XX
Skarmory - O
So judging Rotom-W similarly-- well, it's good and bad.
O - 11
X - 8
XX - 19
Rotom has a similar number of XX, but generally has a much better report card when looking at defensive prowess this way.
